The NPCs do, in fact, change their behavior over time in response to what the players do. But not really.. This is where the scripted behavior comes in.. I avoid violent areas because I wish to live.. Technically the Orcs after being beaten time and time again should MOVE AWAY from humans because they fear them.. The first time a player sees the orcs in the "Orc" example, the orcs will try to kill the player. If they fail badly, or if the player talks to a guard who happens to be willing to investigate the orcs, the orc response will change from "fight" to "leave the area". The larger the group of orcs, the less likely they are to move away. Where is the game that will currently exhibit this most simplistic StoryBricks behavior? If StoryBricks is "regular" scripting and if any AI system is capable of doing what StoryBricks does, where are the real world examples? So according to your logic, if I group up in the game frequently, my team will spend wasted time chasing down orcs that wish to avoid us, since we outnumber it.. I know I would.. I've played PvP many times, and when it's me against 3 others, I run.. Even a dog knows when it's time to turn and run (normally).. lol Storybricks might be complex, but it is still scripted..
The orc example is not something I've made up and it's not a "pie in the sky" dream. This is a concrete example from the developers. If people are going overboard in thinking what StoryBricks can do, you are going overboard in saying what StoryBricks cannot do. The two things don't magically balance out. Neither one gives an accurate representation of what the system is capable of. And we have yet to see ONE substantial fight sequence highlighting such awesomeness.. Seeing is believing..
I do think we (and a couple other people) are in agreement that the system is only going to be as good as what the developers do with it. It doesn't matter how great the system sounds if SOE kacks it up.
And I do think we (and a couple other people) are in agreement that the system has NOT YET proved itself to justify all the hype.. The system might not be great after all regardless who's game it is.. Storybricks might do well in a single player game, but may not do well in a MMO.. None of us know because Storybricks hasn't been used in any released game so far.. Is EQN their only customer?
Your right, all we have seen is simulations. All we know is what they are shooting for, non-scripted AI. Sure they will use some scripted things for conversation but the AI and how the NPC interact with the world is a non-scripted sandbox of lets see what the NPC do when we set these rules. They are looking for an outcome that will be different from server to server. Will they pull it off? Well simulations look good so far. When will we know it works? Within the next few months as Landmark will be getting NPCs and the Storybricks tools. Players will be working with the same tools the devs have. No hype, just 100% hands on and unfiltered game play.
No scripted AI don't exist. They've shown that in the video. The only thing that Sony is actually doing is expanding the number of responses that an AI will have give the various faction parameters they've set. ( faction doesn't necessarily mean friend/foe, it could be established as helpful/non-helpful, deity commonality/non commonality, the programmer sets the parameters. It is more complex then most games, but it's not new. In this case Sony is setting a large target. Where my argument in the use of permutations becomes significant. Where talking exponential options with ever encounter. ) All AI behavior is scripted. People need to review the definition of scripted behavior.
The whole thing can mean repeating content. I dont know how you can be negative about the whole thing. They put 100s of conditions and suddenly you are so immersed and the combat and classes is top notched and the mechanics are good in a voxel world...This is how to make an mmorpg
The NPCs do, in fact, change their behavior over time in response to what the players do. But not really.. This is where the scripted behavior comes in.. I avoid violent areas because I wish to live.. Technically the Orcs after being beaten time and time again should MOVE AWAY from humans because they fear them.. The first time a player sees the orcs in the "Orc" example, the orcs will try to kill the player. If they fail badly, or if the player talks to a guard who happens to be willing to investigate the orcs, the orc response will change from "fight" to "leave the area". The larger the group of orcs, the less likely they are to move away. Where is the game that will currently exhibit this most simplistic StoryBricks behavior? If StoryBricks is "regular" scripting and if any AI system is capable of doing what StoryBricks does, where are the real world examples? So according to your logic, if I group up in the game frequently, my team will spend wasted time chasing down orcs that wish to avoid us, since we outnumber it.. I know I would.. I've played PvP many times, and when it's me against 3 others, I run.. Even a dog knows when it's time to turn and run (normally).. lol Storybricks might be complex, but it is still scripted..
The orc example is not something I've made up and it's not a "pie in the sky" dream. This is a concrete example from the developers. If people are going overboard in thinking what StoryBricks can do, you are going overboard in saying what StoryBricks cannot do. The two things don't magically balance out. Neither one gives an accurate representation of what the system is capable of. And we have yet to see ONE substantial fight sequence highlighting such awesomeness.. Seeing is believing..
I do think we (and a couple other people) are in agreement that the system is only going to be as good as what the developers do with it. It doesn't matter how great the system sounds if SOE kacks it up.
And I do think we (and a couple other people) are in agreement that the system has NOT YET proved itself to justify all the hype.. The system might not be great after all regardless who's game it is.. Storybricks might do well in a single player game, but may not do well in a MMO.. None of us know because Storybricks hasn't been used in any released game so far.. Is EQN their only customer?
Your right, all we have seen is simulations. All we know is what they are shooting for, non-scripted AI. Sure they will use some scripted things for conversation but the AI and how the NPC interact with the world is a non-scripted sandbox of lets see what the NPC do when we set these rules. They are looking for an outcome that will be different from server to server. Will they pull it off? Well simulations look good so far. When will we know it works? Within the next few months as Landmark will be getting NPCs and the Storybricks tools. Players will be working with the same tools the devs have. No hype, just 100% hands on and unfiltered game play.
No scripted AI don't exist. They've shown that in the video. The only thing that Sony is actually doing is expanding the number of responses that an AI will have give the various faction parameters they've set. ( faction doesn't necessarily mean friend/foe, it could be established as helpful/non-helpful, deity commonality/non commonality, the programmer sets the parameters. It is more complex then most games, but it's not new. In this case Sony is setting a large target. Where my argument in the use of permutations becomes significant. Where talking exponential options with ever encounter. ) All AI behavior is scripted. People need to review the definition of scripted behavior.
People really need to read up on what scripted means. Sad so many people making posts when they have no clue. I will make it simple for you. Scripted means every action a NPC takes is coded. That NPC cant do anything unless it fits in that box. So no action can be taken by a NPC unless a game designer has told it to do it. Yes, Storybricks has coded instructions for each NPC but they are rules not scripted actions. When Storybrick NPCs are released into the world, the game devs only have an idea of what it will do and how it will interact with the world. Most times the outcome will be unknown by the devs. The number of possibilities for an end conclusion will be so varied that from server to server the game will be different. In the same zone with the same NPCs, a zone will have an Orc city with the local Humans wiped out but a few slaves. On another server it could be the reverse. This is what not scripted means.
Each game has its own terms, in the case of EQN when they say not scripted, they mean most NPC actions is not under the control of a Dev.
The NPCs do, in fact, change their behavior over time in response to what the players do. But not really.. This is where the scripted behavior comes in.. I avoid violent areas because I wish to live.. Technically the Orcs after being beaten time and time again should MOVE AWAY from humans because they fear them.. The first time a player sees the orcs in the "Orc" example, the orcs will try to kill the player. If they fail badly, or if the player talks to a guard who happens to be willing to investigate the orcs, the orc response will change from "fight" to "leave the area". The larger the group of orcs, the less likely they are to move away. Where is the game that will currently exhibit this most simplistic StoryBricks behavior? If StoryBricks is "regular" scripting and if any AI system is capable of doing what StoryBricks does, where are the real world examples? So according to your logic, if I group up in the game frequently, my team will spend wasted time chasing down orcs that wish to avoid us, since we outnumber it.. I know I would.. I've played PvP many times, and when it's me against 3 others, I run.. Even a dog knows when it's time to turn and run (normally).. lol Storybricks might be complex, but it is still scripted..
The orc example is not something I've made up and it's not a "pie in the sky" dream. This is a concrete example from the developers. If people are going overboard in thinking what StoryBricks can do, you are going overboard in saying what StoryBricks cannot do. The two things don't magically balance out. Neither one gives an accurate representation of what the system is capable of. And we have yet to see ONE substantial fight sequence highlighting such awesomeness.. Seeing is believing..
I do think we (and a couple other people) are in agreement that the system is only going to be as good as what the developers do with it. It doesn't matter how great the system sounds if SOE kacks it up.
And I do think we (and a couple other people) are in agreement that the system has NOT YET proved itself to justify all the hype.. The system might not be great after all regardless who's game it is.. Storybricks might do well in a single player game, but may not do well in a MMO.. None of us know because Storybricks hasn't been used in any released game so far.. Is EQN their only customer?
If you group together with players often, and repeatedly kill the Orcs, you'll have to go someplace else to find them. The location will not be pre-determined. The Orcs will find a location that is suitable.
I'll ask again. If this is "standard" or "regular" scripted behavior, where is the existing game where the NPCs and the Mobs exhibit even the behavior in the Alpha video? Where is the game where NPCs or Mobs exhibit the behavior as outlined in EQN's basic example, from there developers? It should be easy to find such a game because this is basic scripting, right?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
EQN is my last hope for a MMORPG. I really pray they do it right. They have the tools, ideas and straight up facts of what works and what DOES NOT WORK. So come all, please do it right !
Originally posted by lizardbones The NPCs do, in fact, change their behavior over time in response to what the players do. ...If StoryBricks is "regular" scripting and if any AI system is capable of doing what StoryBricks does, where are the real world examples?
They only do what their script tells them to do:
If player past interaction = 0, then attack else if player past interaction = beaten, then run else if player past interaction = win, then boast end if
It is just a script. NPCs do not learn - create new "scripts", new behavior models.
I do not follow all games on market so I have no idea what game AI "other" games apart from MMO or RPG use but I guess Sims use something similar.
The keyword here is design.
You need a specific design to utilize such AI and quite frankly, there is no point in Storybricks AI in linear story telling most RPG and MMOs consist of.
SOE is trying something different, thus they work game AI to fit their needs.
And no, I am not going overboard with what Storybricks cannot do, just I have better understanding how those things work technically.
If anyone is REALLY interested in learning what story bricks and AI in general is capable of and is currently being developed they should check out the information from the recent Game AI convention.....not that I expect any of the people stating "it's just scripts" and "it's never gonna happen" will continue to ignore what is happening out there and continue to keep their heads stuck in the sand.
Also, the link here is a very good presentation on AI from Brian Schwab of Storybricks.
Gah copy/paste is screwed up no this site. Just type the following into youtube: -
If anyone is REALLY interested in learning what story bricks and AI in general is capable of and is currently being developed they should check out the information from the recent Game AI convention.....not that I expect any of the people stating "it's just scripts" and "it's never gonna happen" will continue to ignore what is happening out there and continue to keep their heads stuck in the sand.
Also, the link here is a very good presentation on AI from Brian Schwab of Storybricks.
Gah copy/paste is screwed up no this site. Just type the following into youtube: -
Guy says it right in the presentation - the AI will adjust itself and how it acts depending on what the player does over time.
this video depicts what SOE's end goal is within EQN as far as self sustaining content goes. one little change sets off a giant chain reaction that reverberates throughout the entire system, creating new possibilities on a regular basis.
If anyone is REALLY interested in learning what story bricks and AI in general is capable of and is currently being developed they should check out the information from the recent Game AI convention.....not that I expect any of the people stating "it's just scripts" and "it's never gonna happen" will continue to ignore what is happening out there and continue to keep their heads stuck in the sand.
Also, the link here is a very good presentation on AI from Brian Schwab of Storybricks.
Gah copy/paste is screwed up no this site. Just type the following into youtube: -
Guy says it right in the presentation - the AI will adjust itself and how it acts depending on what the player does over time.
this video depicts what SOE's end goal is within EQN as far as self sustaining content goes. one little change sets off a giant chain reaction that reverberates throughout the entire system, creating new possibilities on a regular basis.
Now THAT is an interesting video and really does depict the idea behind the storybricks engine.
This is also why I have stated earlier in this thread that even the devs won't know everything that could possibly happen. They will know the behaviors and actions, but they will not know every way those behaviors and actions can effect the world. There is no way to predict how players will interact either and what changes will occur due to player to world interaction.
Adding a new small rule to the game, could have drastic changes overall in such a game. Just adding a slightly new behavior could cause a cascade of events to unfold. Adding a new npc could literally change the entire feel of the world itself.
There are so many possible outcomes, it's really impossible to think of every one.
And not only that, but it shows that they could change up the entire state of the game by adding just a very tiny bit of code to mix up the process. Since it doesn't rely on specifically scripting each event one at a time, it means we can get a lot more new content with a lot less work from the devs and that the result of that content is not predetermined as it happens dynamically depending on player action/inaction and all the other variables involved that are different from server to server.
The NPCs do, in fact, change their behavior over time in response to what the players do.
...
If StoryBricks is "regular" scripting and if any AI system is capable of doing what StoryBricks does, where are the real world examples?
They only do what their script tells them to do:
If player past interaction = 0, then attack else if player past interaction = beaten, then run else if player past interaction = win, then boast end if
It is just a script. NPCs do not learn - create new "scripts", new behavior models.
I do not follow all games on market so I have no idea what game AI "other" games apart from MMO or RPG use but I guess Sims use something similar.
The keyword here is design.
You need a specific design to utilize such AI and quite frankly, there is no point in Storybricks AI in linear story telling most RPG and MMOs consist of.
SOE is trying something different, thus they work game AI to fit their needs.
And no, I am not going overboard with what Storybricks cannot do, just I have better understanding how those things work technically.
Oh, "I know better than you, technically". Nice appeal to authority, where you are the authority.
What you are saying is that the StoryBricks AI won't actually create a living, self aware creature. What you are also saying is that the StoryBricks AI is backed by code. The StoryBricks AI won't do something that doesn't exist in the code. This is not going to be a surprise to anyone, I assure you.
The reason you can't find any games that exhibit the behavior that can be shown in the StoryBricks examples is because they don't exist. There are 0 games with the end results that StoryBricks brings. Yes, StoryBricks runs off of code, but it is not Scripted AI. Not in a manner that has existed in gaming before now.
Existing AI does not react to changes in the world and has a limited ability to react to changes instigated from players. In World of Warcraft, Thrall will never kill a Horde player because Thrall is on a script, one that he cannot deviate from. That script is a necessary part of Thrall being Thrall and a necessary part of telling the player what they should be doing. With StoryBricks, whether or not a King decides to kill the player really depends on what the player does. One of the better AI systems I've found is in the most recent Fallout games, and the responses are limited to "will attack", "won't attack". With StoryBricks, that King might respond with trying to kill you, or he might respond with a trade embargo on the town that you're staying in. So perhaps you would find the discussion more palatable if you considered that StoryBricks is scripting, but at a level of complexity at least an order of magnitude higher than what currently exists.
SOE could still totally bone it though. Or knock it out of the park. Who knows. :-)
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by lizardbones Oh, "I know better than you, technically". Nice appeal to authority, where you are the authority.
Not an argument at all, I just addressed your apeal to ignorance in your last post. Not all people are as technically ignorant as you.
I provided you all the arguments but you either ignored them and just repeated yourself or you simply have no idea what I am talking about. Nice example is your attempt in twisting and putting words I haven't said in my mouth - all scripts are code but not all code is scripts.
Lacking fundamental knowledge on topic is one thing, ignoring it and refusing to educate yourself and being obtuse is another.
If anyone is REALLY interested in learning what story bricks and AI in general is capable of and is currently being developed they should check out the information from the recent Game AI convention.....not that I expect any of the people stating "it's just scripts" and "it's never gonna happen" will continue to ignore what is happening out there and continue to keep their heads stuck in the sand.
Also, the link here is a very good presentation on AI from Brian Schwab of Storybricks.
Gah copy/paste is screwed up no this site. Just type the following into youtube: -
Guy says it right in the presentation - the AI will adjust itself and how it acts depending on what the player does over time.
this video depicts what SOE's end goal is within EQN as far as self sustaining content goes. one little change sets off a giant chain reaction that reverberates throughout the entire system, creating new possibilities on a regular basis.
Now THAT is an interesting video and really does depict the idea behind the storybricks engine.
This is also why I have stated earlier in this thread that even the devs won't know everything that could possibly happen. They will know the behaviors and actions, but they will not know every way those behaviors and actions can effect the world. There is no way to predict how players will interact either and what changes will occur due to player to world interaction.
Adding a new small rule to the game, could have drastic changes overall in such a game. Just adding a slightly new behavior could cause a cascade of events to unfold. Adding a new npc could literally change the entire feel of the world itself.
There are so many possible outcomes, it's really impossible to think of every one.
Thanks for that video ... it was amazing.
Except that this is happening in a protected park in real life where there is consequence for human to break natural rules. We know how player will interact with that kind of situation in game. If it's killable, it will die. If it's harvestable, it will be harvested.
That's why any kind of attempt at any system trying to simulate a living ecosystem world always failed in mmos. I think that it could make some of the best single player game, at least the people interested in that kind of behavior, people just curious about outcomes of different actions they take, could see it happen.
But in an MMO where a lot of players just want to do as much damage as they can, the experience will most likely be pretty chaotic. I'd be more hopeful for a SP game using storybrick, in an mmo I fear it will just be too many unknown to actually appreciate the system behind it.
But in an MMO where a lot of players just want to do as much damage as they can, the experience will most likely be pretty chaotic. I'd be more hopeful for a SP game using storybrick, in an mmo I fear it will just be too many unknown to actually appreciate the system behind it.
I imagine it will be very chaotic.
Kill all the Orcs in an area only to find that something else sees an opportunity and moves in or More Orcs come to area to wage a huge war. Or by removing the Orcs a nearby town no longer has customers so the merchants move on too.
Cut down all the trees in an area and it is no longer a land of nature, Evil moves in and chaos ensues. Plant more trees and suddenly nature fights back. Or maybe the Dark Elves see an opportunity to settle the lands.
Yes, all those boring old, done many times before scripts, kicking in to provide a chaotic world where actions have reactions and players really do live a life of consequence....sucks right?
Oh, "I know better than you, technically". Nice appeal to authority, where you are the authority.
Not an argument at all, I just addressed your apeal to ignorance in your last post. Not all people are as technically ignorant as you.
I provided you all the arguments but you either ignored them and just repeated yourself or you simply have no idea what I am talking about. Nice example is your attempt in twisting and putting words I haven't said in my mouth - all scripts are code but not all code is scripts.
Lacking fundamental knowledge on topic is one thing, ignoring it and refusing to educate yourself and being obtuse is another.
I would love to comment on this, but I think it really speaks for itself.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
But in an MMO where a lot of players just want to do as much damage as they can, the experience will most likely be pretty chaotic. I'd be more hopeful for a SP game using storybrick, in an mmo I fear it will just be too many unknown to actually appreciate the system behind it.
I imagine it will be very chaotic.
Kill all the Orcs in an area only to find that something else sees an opportunity and moves in or More Orcs come to area to wage a huge war. Or by removing the Orcs a nearby town no longer has customers so the merchants move on too.
Cut down all the trees in an area and it is no longer a land of nature, Evil moves in and chaos ensues. Plant more trees and suddenly nature fights back. Or maybe the Dark Elves see an opportunity to settle the lands.
Yes, all those boring old, done many times before scripts, kicking in to provide a chaotic world where actions have reactions and players really do live a life of consequence....sucks right?
What you describe is not chaos, it's perfect natural order. Would I want to play something like it ? sure, but what will happen is more likely to be anything that comes and try to set foot in an area will be destroyed before any kind of ecosystem can evolve out of it.
But in an MMO where a lot of players just want to do as much damage as they can, the experience will most likely be pretty chaotic. I'd be more hopeful for a SP game using storybrick, in an mmo I fear it will just be too many unknown to actually appreciate the system behind it.
I imagine it will be very chaotic.
Kill all the Orcs in an area only to find that something else sees an opportunity and moves in or More Orcs come to area to wage a huge war. Or by removing the Orcs a nearby town no longer has customers so the merchants move on too.
Cut down all the trees in an area and it is no longer a land of nature, Evil moves in and chaos ensues. Plant more trees and suddenly nature fights back. Or maybe the Dark Elves see an opportunity to settle the lands.
Yes, all those boring old, done many times before scripts, kicking in to provide a chaotic world where actions have reactions and players really do live a life of consequence....sucks right?
What you describe is not chaos, it's perfect natural order. Would I want to play something like it ? sure, but what will happen is more likely to be anything that comes and try to set foot in an area will be destroyed before any kind of ecosystem can evolve out of it.
I haven't seen any explanation of what will happen if the players kill all the Orcs, or if they cut down all the trees, which seems very likely, especially on opening day.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I haven't seen any explanation of what will happen if the players kill all the Orcs, or if they cut down all the trees, which seems very likely, especially on opening day.
seems like orcs (or mobs) will migrate to easier targets
Georgeson said he wants to get rid of the permanent spawn point for all monsters. Instead, he wants to program monsters with specific AI characteristics and "release them into the void." Take orcs for example. Orcs like gold, but they dislike areas which are patrolled by guards because hey, that means death. So if the designers release a thousand orcs into the world, they will congregate in low-population areas that happen to have a lot of rich adventurers walking through it. "They will stay there until the situation changes," Georgeson said. If you ask guards to start patrolling the woods where orcs are, the band may move on, or if adventurers stop being an easy target, they might also migrate. Of course, your actions could have unintended consequences too. If the band of orcs moves somewhere else, then that area will have to deal with them, and so on.
The design team will also use this AI to create major story arcs called "rallying calls" and it will be up to the players to complete them. The example given was a noble asking the players to establish an outpost near a goblin king's stronghold. If you go there, you'll have various activities you can do such as building a stone wall around the tents or thinning out the goblins in the nearby woods. Keep in mind, these aren't quests, but open activities you could engage in, and some of them will trigger a response from the AI. If you kill too many goblins, the king will get mad and start sending out raiding parties. If the raiding parties are stymied by the stone wall you erected, the goblin king could recruit gnoll allies and storm your walls with massive siege engines. If the army is defeated, the goblin king will retreat and head off to another region to possibly start another rallying call, while the town you helped found becomes a permanent feature of Norrath.
I haven't seen any explanation of what will happen if the players kill all the Orcs, or if they cut down all the trees, which seems very likely, especially on opening day.
seems like orcs (or mobs) will migrate to easier targets
Georgeson said he wants to get rid of the permanent spawn point for all monsters. Instead, he wants to program monsters with specific AI characteristics and "release them into the void." Take orcs for example. Orcs like gold, but they dislike areas which are patrolled by guards because hey, that means death. So if the designers release a thousand orcs into the world, they will congregate in low-population areas that happen to have a lot of rich adventurers walking through it. "They will stay there until the situation changes," Georgeson said. If you ask guards to start patrolling the woods where orcs are, the band may move on, or if adventurers stop being an easy target, they might also migrate. Of course, your actions could have unintended consequences too. If the band of orcs moves somewhere else, then that area will have to deal with them, and so on.
The design team will also use this AI to create major story arcs called "rallying calls" and it will be up to the players to complete them. The example given was a noble asking the players to establish an outpost near a goblin king's stronghold. If you go there, you'll have various activities you can do such as building a stone wall around the tents or thinning out the goblins in the nearby woods. Keep in mind, these aren't quests, but open activities you could engage in, and some of them will trigger a response from the AI. If you kill too many goblins, the king will get mad and start sending out raiding parties. If the raiding parties are stymied by the stone wall you erected, the goblin king could recruit gnoll allies and storm your walls with massive siege engines. If the army is defeated, the goblin king will retreat and head off to another region to possibly start another rallying call, while the town you helped found becomes a permanent feature of Norrath.
But what happens if every orc of a clan is killed ? Is there an invisible spawning point of that tribe that will move till it find a new spot to rebuild the clan or is this clan gone forever ? Does one of those orc have to survive for your action to be remembered or does your action against them is also erased ?
What happen to the merchant that dies after you spent weeks to get to like you, will he respawn or be replaced by a new npc that knows nothing about you ?
If I kill orcs, does that affect every orcs in the game or only the ones that sees me do the deed or the ones that come in contact with the witnesses ?
I haven't seen any explanation of what will happen if the players kill all the Orcs, or if they cut down all the trees, which seems very likely, especially on opening day.
seems like orcs (or mobs) will migrate to easier targets
Georgeson said he wants to get rid of the permanent spawn point for all monsters. Instead, he wants to program monsters with specific AI characteristics and "release them into the void." Take orcs for example. Orcs like gold, but they dislike areas which are patrolled by guards because hey, that means death. So if the designers release a thousand orcs into the world, they will congregate in low-population areas that happen to have a lot of rich adventurers walking through it. "They will stay there until the situation changes," Georgeson said. If you ask guards to start patrolling the woods where orcs are, the band may move on, or if adventurers stop being an easy target, they might also migrate. Of course, your actions could have unintended consequences too. If the band of orcs moves somewhere else, then that area will have to deal with them, and so on.
The design team will also use this AI to create major story arcs called "rallying calls" and it will be up to the players to complete them. The example given was a noble asking the players to establish an outpost near a goblin king's stronghold. If you go there, you'll have various activities you can do such as building a stone wall around the tents or thinning out the goblins in the nearby woods. Keep in mind, these aren't quests, but open activities you could engage in, and some of them will trigger a response from the AI. If you kill too many goblins, the king will get mad and start sending out raiding parties. If the raiding parties are stymied by the stone wall you erected, the goblin king could recruit gnoll allies and storm your walls with massive siege engines. If the army is defeated, the goblin king will retreat and head off to another region to possibly start another rallying call, while the town you helped found becomes a permanent feature of Norrath.
But what happens if every orc of a clan is killed ? Is there an invisible spawning point of that tribe that will move till it find a new spot to rebuild the clan or is this clan gone forever ? Does one of those orc have to survive for your action to be remembered or does your action against them is also erased ?
What happen to the merchant that dies after you spent weeks to get to like you, will he respawn or be replaced by a new npc that knows nothing about you ?
If I kill orcs, does that affect every orcs in the game or only the ones that sees me do the deed or the ones that come in contact with the witnesses ?
Right. I've been following StoryBricks for a couple years at least. I'm pretty familiar with how it operates under idea circumstances, but what happens when players act like players? i.e. Farm the Orcs out of existence or farm the trees out of existence. That type of thing. Even if a single player couldn't do it because the Orcs ran in fear, a team of players could certainly do it. That's the problem with dropping a bunch of demi-gods into a carefully crafted world. :-)
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
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No scripted AI don't exist. They've shown that in the video. The only thing that Sony is actually doing is expanding the number of responses that an AI will have give the various faction parameters they've set. ( faction doesn't necessarily mean friend/foe, it could be established as helpful/non-helpful, deity commonality/non commonality, the programmer sets the parameters. It is more complex then most games, but it's not new. In this case Sony is setting a large target. Where my argument in the use of permutations becomes significant. Where talking exponential options with ever encounter. ) All AI behavior is scripted. People need to review the definition of scripted behavior.
People really need to read up on what scripted means. Sad so many people making posts when they have no clue. I will make it simple for you. Scripted means every action a NPC takes is coded. That NPC cant do anything unless it fits in that box. So no action can be taken by a NPC unless a game designer has told it to do it. Yes, Storybricks has coded instructions for each NPC but they are rules not scripted actions. When Storybrick NPCs are released into the world, the game devs only have an idea of what it will do and how it will interact with the world. Most times the outcome will be unknown by the devs. The number of possibilities for an end conclusion will be so varied that from server to server the game will be different. In the same zone with the same NPCs, a zone will have an Orc city with the local Humans wiped out but a few slaves. On another server it could be the reverse. This is what not scripted means.
Each game has its own terms, in the case of EQN when they say not scripted, they mean most NPC actions is not under the control of a Dev.
If you group together with players often, and repeatedly kill the Orcs, you'll have to go someplace else to find them. The location will not be pre-determined. The Orcs will find a location that is suitable.I'll ask again. If this is "standard" or "regular" scripted behavior, where is the existing game where the NPCs and the Mobs exhibit even the behavior in the Alpha video? Where is the game where NPCs or Mobs exhibit the behavior as outlined in EQN's basic example, from there developers? It should be easy to find such a game because this is basic scripting, right?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Yeah, you just call scripts "rules" but that does not make them less scripts.
/facepalm
If player past interaction = 0, then attack
else if player past interaction = beaten, then run
else if player past interaction = win, then boast
end if
It is just a script. NPCs do not learn - create new "scripts", new behavior models.
I do not follow all games on market so I have no idea what game AI "other" games apart from MMO or RPG use but I guess Sims use something similar.
The keyword here is design.
You need a specific design to utilize such AI and quite frankly, there is no point in Storybricks AI in linear story telling most RPG and MMOs consist of.
SOE is trying something different, thus they work game AI to fit their needs.
And no, I am not going overboard with what Storybricks cannot do, just I have better understanding how those things work technically.
Remember when GW2 had amazing sounding articles? yeah....I do too..
then the game released.
If anyone is REALLY interested in learning what story bricks and AI in general is capable of and is currently being developed they should check out the information from the recent Game AI convention.....not that I expect any of the people stating "it's just scripts" and "it's never gonna happen" will continue to ignore what is happening out there and continue to keep their heads stuck in the sand.
Also, the link here is a very good presentation on AI from Brian Schwab of Storybricks.
Gah copy/paste is screwed up no this site. Just type the following into youtube: -
IGDA Webinar, 11 June 2014: AI Session with Brian Schwab
Guy says it right in the presentation - the AI will adjust itself and how it acts depending on what the player does over time.
something else I found that somewhat applies to storybricks as well: http://www.break.com/video/wolves-affect-and-improve-everything-around-them-2752582
this video depicts what SOE's end goal is within EQN as far as self sustaining content goes. one little change sets off a giant chain reaction that reverberates throughout the entire system, creating new possibilities on a regular basis.
Now THAT is an interesting video and really does depict the idea behind the storybricks engine.
This is also why I have stated earlier in this thread that even the devs won't know everything that could possibly happen. They will know the behaviors and actions, but they will not know every way those behaviors and actions can effect the world. There is no way to predict how players will interact either and what changes will occur due to player to world interaction.
Adding a new small rule to the game, could have drastic changes overall in such a game. Just adding a slightly new behavior could cause a cascade of events to unfold. Adding a new npc could literally change the entire feel of the world itself.
There are so many possible outcomes, it's really impossible to think of every one.
Thanks for that video ... it was amazing.
And not only that, but it shows that they could change up the entire state of the game by adding just a very tiny bit of code to mix up the process. Since it doesn't rely on specifically scripting each event one at a time, it means we can get a lot more new content with a lot less work from the devs and that the result of that content is not predetermined as it happens dynamically depending on player action/inaction and all the other variables involved that are different from server to server.
Very exciting.
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Oh, "I know better than you, technically". Nice appeal to authority, where you are the authority.
What you are saying is that the StoryBricks AI won't actually create a living, self aware creature. What you are also saying is that the StoryBricks AI is backed by code. The StoryBricks AI won't do something that doesn't exist in the code. This is not going to be a surprise to anyone, I assure you.
The reason you can't find any games that exhibit the behavior that can be shown in the StoryBricks examples is because they don't exist. There are 0 games with the end results that StoryBricks brings. Yes, StoryBricks runs off of code, but it is not Scripted AI. Not in a manner that has existed in gaming before now.
Existing AI does not react to changes in the world and has a limited ability to react to changes instigated from players. In World of Warcraft, Thrall will never kill a Horde player because Thrall is on a script, one that he cannot deviate from. That script is a necessary part of Thrall being Thrall and a necessary part of telling the player what they should be doing. With StoryBricks, whether or not a King decides to kill the player really depends on what the player does. One of the better AI systems I've found is in the most recent Fallout games, and the responses are limited to "will attack", "won't attack". With StoryBricks, that King might respond with trying to kill you, or he might respond with a trade embargo on the town that you're staying in. So perhaps you would find the discussion more palatable if you considered that StoryBricks is scripting, but at a level of complexity at least an order of magnitude higher than what currently exists.
SOE could still totally bone it though. Or knock it out of the park. Who knows. :-)
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Not an argument at all, I just addressed your apeal to ignorance in your last post. Not all people are as technically ignorant as you.
I provided you all the arguments but you either ignored them and just repeated yourself or you simply have no idea what I am talking about. Nice example is your attempt in twisting and putting words I haven't said in my mouth - all scripts are code but not all code is scripts.
Lacking fundamental knowledge on topic is one thing, ignoring it and refusing to educate yourself and being obtuse is another.
Except that this is happening in a protected park in real life where there is consequence for human to break natural rules. We know how player will interact with that kind of situation in game. If it's killable, it will die. If it's harvestable, it will be harvested.
That's why any kind of attempt at any system trying to simulate a living ecosystem world always failed in mmos. I think that it could make some of the best single player game, at least the people interested in that kind of behavior, people just curious about outcomes of different actions they take, could see it happen.
But in an MMO where a lot of players just want to do as much damage as they can, the experience will most likely be pretty chaotic. I'd be more hopeful for a SP game using storybrick, in an mmo I fear it will just be too many unknown to actually appreciate the system behind it.
I imagine it will be very chaotic.
Kill all the Orcs in an area only to find that something else sees an opportunity and moves in or More Orcs come to area to wage a huge war. Or by removing the Orcs a nearby town no longer has customers so the merchants move on too.
Cut down all the trees in an area and it is no longer a land of nature, Evil moves in and chaos ensues. Plant more trees and suddenly nature fights back. Or maybe the Dark Elves see an opportunity to settle the lands.
Yes, all those boring old, done many times before scripts, kicking in to provide a chaotic world where actions have reactions and players really do live a life of consequence....sucks right?
I would love to comment on this, but I think it really speaks for itself.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
What you describe is not chaos, it's perfect natural order. Would I want to play something like it ? sure, but what will happen is more likely to be anything that comes and try to set foot in an area will be destroyed before any kind of ecosystem can evolve out of it.
I haven't seen any explanation of what will happen if the players kill all the Orcs, or if they cut down all the trees, which seems very likely, especially on opening day.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
seems like orcs (or mobs) will migrate to easier targets
from Pax 2013, last year
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.827117-EverQuest-Next-Is-the-Next-Generation-of-MMOs-PAX-2013
Georgeson said he wants to get rid of the permanent spawn point for all monsters. Instead, he wants to program monsters with specific AI characteristics and "release them into the void." Take orcs for example. Orcs like gold, but they dislike areas which are patrolled by guards because hey, that means death. So if the designers release a thousand orcs into the world, they will congregate in low-population areas that happen to have a lot of rich adventurers walking through it. "They will stay there until the situation changes," Georgeson said. If you ask guards to start patrolling the woods where orcs are, the band may move on, or if adventurers stop being an easy target, they might also migrate. Of course, your actions could have unintended consequences too. If the band of orcs moves somewhere else, then that area will have to deal with them, and so on.
The design team will also use this AI to create major story arcs called "rallying calls" and it will be up to the players to complete them. The example given was a noble asking the players to establish an outpost near a goblin king's stronghold. If you go there, you'll have various activities you can do such as building a stone wall around the tents or thinning out the goblins in the nearby woods. Keep in mind, these aren't quests, but open activities you could engage in, and some of them will trigger a response from the AI. If you kill too many goblins, the king will get mad and start sending out raiding parties. If the raiding parties are stymied by the stone wall you erected, the goblin king could recruit gnoll allies and storm your walls with massive siege engines. If the army is defeated, the goblin king will retreat and head off to another region to possibly start another rallying call, while the town you helped found becomes a permanent feature of Norrath.
EQ2 fan sites
But what happens if every orc of a clan is killed ? Is there an invisible spawning point of that tribe that will move till it find a new spot to rebuild the clan or is this clan gone forever ? Does one of those orc have to survive for your action to be remembered or does your action against them is also erased ?
What happen to the merchant that dies after you spent weeks to get to like you, will he respawn or be replaced by a new npc that knows nothing about you ?
If I kill orcs, does that affect every orcs in the game or only the ones that sees me do the deed or the ones that come in contact with the witnesses ?
Right. I've been following StoryBricks for a couple years at least. I'm pretty familiar with how it operates under idea circumstances, but what happens when players act like players? i.e. Farm the Orcs out of existence or farm the trees out of existence. That type of thing. Even if a single player couldn't do it because the Orcs ran in fear, a team of players could certainly do it. That's the problem with dropping a bunch of demi-gods into a carefully crafted world. :-)
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.