If I buy an XP boost and get to level 20 in 2 weeks time I am paying to win but if I play the game 8 hours a day and get to level 20 in one week that is NOT pay to win? How did the first person win?
If I buy a low cut shirt for my female avatar that shows my boobs and makes you not hit the attack key for one second, that gives me an advantage so it is pay to win? Some of you claim ANY advantage is pay to win.
I do agree with some previous posters that XP boosts and what-not can be considered Pay-for-Power. I also think you have to consider the situation. If I jump into WoW now and want to skip the questing and just get into raiding like most people, is it wrong or Pay-to-win for me to level to 90 at the cash shop so I can join my friends and raid? On the other hand, when a game just launched and you pay money to get to a level higher than everyone else so you can dominate in PvP I do consider that pay-to-win.
"Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game." - SEANMCAD
Pay 2 Win is when you get some sort of in-game advantage through out-of-game money. For example if you buy a sword or an XP boost. The worst kind of Pay 2 Win is when you get an advantage not possible without paying, for example if the best sword in the game can only be obtained through real money or extreme amounts of grinding to the point of being impractical to most.
Over time Pay 2 Win has for some people been watered down to only mean stuff obtainable only through payment. This is often done by Pay 2 Win apologists who feel bad about having paid to get an advantage over other players. They want the advantage but don't like being associated with the the kind of player they are, so they attempt to redefine the Pay 2 Win concept so it doesn't apply to them.
If I buy an XP boost and get to level 20 in 2 weeks time I am paying to win but if I play the game 8 hours a day and get to level 20 in one week that is NOT pay to win? How did the first person win?
F2P games that base their business model on whaling typically use a combination of Pay-to-Win and Play-to-Win. So sure, that person with the exp boost is paying to win, and that person playing 8 hours a day is PLaying to win, but what about the person who uses the exp boost AND plays 8 hours a day?
As an aside, any smart whaling company will ensure the bar is high enough that the Pay-AND-Play-to-Win guy never reaches it or only barely reaches it, while the Pay-to-win guy (who still plays a little, at least, obviously) gets higher than the "Does not pay at all but plays more" guy. This ensures maximum spending while also giving players a game to actually PLAY so that the whales stick around. Archeage, like many FB games, tricks players into this by making max level not too hard to get, and even max equipment kiiiinda doable for semi-whales, but max equipment UPGRADES an entirely different story altogether. I'm pretty sure the main goal is to make players not realize the costs of continuing to play the game at the higher end where the competition gets fierce until they're already invested.
As another aside, EVERY whaling company also makes it impossible to play 8 hours a day unless you pay. Why bother with that "play to win" guy when you can cut him out almost entirely? He's not giving you money after all. Archeage does this via its labor point system (which includes to some extent the "I only pay $15 a month" guy, since Patron status doesn't get rid of the LP system so much as only alleviate it a bit, and not enough to give enough LP for 8 hours a day at higher levels...), although it's not as restrictive as other games.
Another common business strategy for whaling F2P MMOs is to make the labor point cost low at first then increase it later. That way you're already invested in the game and thus more likely to pay when you hit the labor point wall. Again, Archeage does this. People say "I have no LP problems as a patron!" but they haven't gotten to the higher levels yet where the LP costs keep going up and up and up.
Honestly, this isn't unique to Archeage. This sort of business strategy is nigh ubiquitous in almost every Facebook Browser game in existance. If anything, it's toned down a bit for Archeage... although the fact that a non-browser based MMO can be compared to a browser FB whaling game in the first place is not a good thing.
From the Urban Dictionary - Pay to win definition - "Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items than everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying."
By this definition AA is definitely P2W. Even Massively in their Day 6 review of AA said point blank it is P2W.
Another thing I keep trying to emphasize but most people don't seem to realize is that the nature of the game itself matters, too.
For competitive games, P2W has much greater meaning than for not-so-competitive games. Most (not all) people don't particularly care about buying lv90 chars in WoW because it's only kiiiiinda competitive.
In a game like Archeage, however, with open-world PvP, the ability to skip to max level faster and get better gear faster and sell cash shop items to others for gold to make yourself stronger with takes on an entirely new meaning and significance.
Again, this is typical whaling strategy for most facebook browser games. Encourage competition amongst players and a cash shop that offers some advantages and if you do it right, you'll have players locked into money-fights where they might as well be throwing each others' money at each other (with the company picking it up!). And again, Archeage isn't as bad as those facebook games in this regard but it's still there.
Originally posted by TiamatRoar I'm pretty sure the main goal is to make players not realize the costs of continuing to play the game at the higher end where the competition gets fierce until they're already invested.
That, my friend, is the keystone of F2P. Keep players in the dark about the real cost of playing until they feel they've 'spent too much time' to quit. Then start drawing from that well. Another poster mentioned long ago that F2P games may start out with an ok model but will become more P2W over time, to maximize revenue.
For the record, I will play a game that has xp potions, haste potions, etc. I won't play games with harsher P2W models such as Planetside 2 and World of Tanks, Star Trek Online (which is a shame because I'm a huge start trek fan).
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
From the Urban Dictionary - Pay to win definition - "Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items than everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying."
By this definition AA is definitely P2W. Even Massively in their Day 6 review of AA said point blank it is P2W.
When you apply this definition and look at the fact that subbers can sell LP's via tax certs and use loyalty points to sell workers comp potions to earn gold to buy better weapons/gear then I agree the mechanic can be considered P2W. But I think it is very different from buying a weapon that cant be found in the game without paying extra. This is why I like the term Pay-for-Power. Archeage allows you to get power faster but that power is no different than the power a F2P person can get if he grinds enough.
Personally I dont mind when a game allows you to bypass boring parts like buying an XP boost to skip some quests. I do mind when you can buy a sword that out damages all other weapons in the game and you can only get it by spending money. I do see where many of you get your idea that Archeage can be considered P2W. I also think there are different severities of P2W and Archeage is closer to the lower end.
"Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game." - SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Talonsin By some of your definitions...1) If I buy an XP boost and get to level 20 in 2 weeks time I am paying to win but if I play the game 8 hours a day and get to level 20 in one week that is NOT pay to win? How did the first person win?2) If I buy a low cut shirt for my female avatar that shows my boobs and makes you not hit the attack key for one second, that gives me an advantage so it is pay to win? Some of you claim ANY advantage is pay to win.I do agree with some previous posters that XP boosts and what-not can be considered Pay-for-Power. I also think you have to consider the situation. If I jump into WoW now and want to skip the questing and just get into raiding like most people, is it wrong or Pay-to-win for me to level to 90 at the cash shop so I can join my friends and raid? On the other hand, when a game just launched and you pay money to get to a level higher than everyone else so you can dominate in PvP I do consider that pay-to-win.
1) XP Potions: Because in 2 weeks (really?) of play, you actually put in 28 hours (I like how you neglected to include actual playing time) instead of the (8x7) 56 hours of actual playing time. It does not matter if it takes 1 week, 1 month, 1 year or even 1 decade. The actual playing time is what matters, time where the player is actually in the game.
2) I don't know if I have a good answer here. The only thing I can think of that comes close would be the commonly held "Costume Contests" that City of Heroes players held. Influence (in game cash) could be won by buying costume packs. Maybe if a player's "I Win!" situation is having their avatar with immense cleavage, then yes, they paid to win
As for the part I underlined, isn't any advantage that a player pays for the very spirit of P2W?
In my mind, it is a form of cheating. One CAN cheat while playing solitaire.
There is one scenario where I would see this as justified. A PvP player wants to get into PvP. Most MMOs with PvP have PvP behind a PvE wall. PvP players usually HAVE to go through some PvE before getting to the PvP they want. These players have to be careful, though, that their XP Boosts do not give them an advantage once to the PvP part.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Axxar Pay 2 Win is when you get some sort of in-game advantage through out-of-game money. For example if you buy a sword or an XP boost. The worst kind of Pay 2 Win is when you get an advantage not possible without paying, for example if the best sword in the game can only be obtained through real money or extreme amounts of grinding to the point of being impractical to most.Over time Pay 2 Win has for some people been watered down to only mean stuff obtainable only through payment. This is often done by Pay 2 Win apologists who feel bad about having paid to get an advantage over other players. They want the advantage but don't like being associated with the the kind of player they are, so they attempt to redefine the Pay 2 Win concept so it doesn't apply to them.
This is spot on! Pay to Win will be redefined to NOT include those defining it.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Talonsin But I think it is very different from buying a weapon that cant be found in the game without paying extra. This is why I like the term Pay-for-Power.
What does power give a player?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Axxar Pay 2 Win is when you get some sort of in-game advantage through out-of-game money. For example if you buy a sword or an XP boost. The worst kind of Pay 2 Win is when you get an advantage not possible without paying, for example if the best sword in the game can only be obtained through real money or extreme amounts of grinding to the point of being impractical to most.
Over time Pay 2 Win has for some people been watered down to only mean stuff obtainable only through payment. This is often done by Pay 2 Win apologists who feel bad about having paid to get an advantage over other players. They want the advantage but don't like being associated with the the kind of player they are, so they attempt to redefine the Pay 2 Win concept so it doesn't apply to them.
This is spot on! Pay to Win will be redefined to NOT include those defining it.
Who's really trying to define it ? I don't think the ones spending the money even care what it means.
Originally posted by Axxar Pay 2 Win is when you get some sort of in-game advantage through out-of-game money. For example if you buy a sword or an XP boost. The worst kind of Pay 2 Win is when you get an advantage not possible without paying, for example if the best sword in the game can only be obtained through real money or extreme amounts of grinding to the point of being impractical to most.
Over time Pay 2 Win has for some people been watered down to only mean stuff obtainable only through payment. This is often done by Pay 2 Win apologists who feel bad about having paid to get an advantage over other players. They want the advantage but don't like being associated with the the kind of player they are, so they attempt to redefine the Pay 2 Win concept so it doesn't apply to them.
This is spot on! Pay to Win will be redefined to NOT include those defining it.
Who's really trying to define it ? I don't think the ones spending the money even care what it means.
Anyone emotionally attached to a game and or who isn't open to a truth that there is something wrong in it. Something that happens in EVERY major launch, ever, in the history of the genre.
Whales who are spending money BECAUSE it's P2W, know it. Of course they care, that's why they play it in the 1st place.
Of course, to them, they love it if they are paying to win in a game with massive P2W denial. That's more "content" for them to chew through.
Time should be the only advantage anyone ever has, since it cannot be regulated due to the different time schedules of millions of people that play MMOs.
When you have to pay money for items that give an advantage, then it's p2w.
Now, what is "winning", in this sense? Winning can mean a lot of things, whether it's leveling faster with xp boosts, reputation gains, gold boosts, loot drops, gear enhancements, etc.
This is why i dislike freemium/hybrid subscription models, because subscribers will always have an advantage.
I should also add, that 4 years ago, these types of systems would've been shunned by western players, but not anymore. It has become the norm.
Originally posted by Axxar Pay 2 Win is when you get some sort of in-game advantage through out-of-game money. For example if you buy a sword or an XP boost. The worst kind of Pay 2 Win is when you get an advantage not possible without paying, for example if the best sword in the game can only be obtained through real money or extreme amounts of grinding to the point of being impractical to most.
Over time Pay 2 Win has for some people been watered down to only mean stuff obtainable only through payment. This is often done by Pay 2 Win apologists who feel bad about having paid to get an advantage over other players. They want the advantage but don't like being associated with the the kind of player they are, so they attempt to redefine the Pay 2 Win concept so it doesn't apply to them.
This is spot on! Pay to Win will be redefined to NOT include those defining it.
Who's really trying to define it ? I don't think the ones spending the money even care what it means.
Anyone emotionally attached to a game and or who isn't open to a truth that there is something wrong in it. Something that happens in EVERY major launch, ever, in the history of the genre.
Whales who are spending money BECAUSE it's P2W, know it. Of course they care, that's why they play it in the 1st place.
Of course, to them, they love it if they are paying to win in a game with massive P2W denial. That's more "content" for them to chew through.
It's a truth now ? How full of yourself you've become that you can dictate right and wrong on how others spend their money. I wonder if you'd be so open to the truth if it was someone else telling you how to spend yours.
Every single last mmorpg with a cash to gold conversion system is p2w. There are varying degrees of p2w from game to game, but if they have a $$ to gold conversion system, they are p2w.
Any game that allows anything to be done quicker/faster, obtained easier...If the game has some system to collect styles, clothes, pets, mounts and adds further of these collectables as buy only it ruins the entire collecting system in the process that the game is about, thus making it less worthy to be played and collect/obtain these things. If the game also has some recipes, system in place that makes it more convenient to hoard, collect items in inventory is also considered P2W if it charges for extra space. If the game allows players to purchase game time that they can trade it for ingame currency it's also P2W since the game is based around economy with currency in place.
So, basically any game that's F2P with cash shop attached will always be on a lower quality/standard then the game that is completely free or with a monthly sub. And then any game that has cheaper sub fee or doesn't charge for expansions will be always better choice and attract bigger market then the one that can do the same only for higher fee/price.
At the end players have to decide what's the best choice for them. For me it's always if I can enjoy a product while saving the most $ in the process I'll take it/be part of it.
Originally posted by Axxar Pay 2 Win is when you get some sort of in-game advantage through out-of-game money. For example if you buy a sword or an XP boost. The worst kind of Pay 2 Win is when you get an advantage not possible without paying, for example if the best sword in the game can only be obtained through real money or extreme amounts of grinding to the point of being impractical to most.
Over time Pay 2 Win has for some people been watered down to only mean stuff obtainable only through payment. This is often done by Pay 2 Win apologists who feel bad about having paid to get an advantage over other players. They want the advantage but don't like being associated with the the kind of player they are, so they attempt to redefine the Pay 2 Win concept so it doesn't apply to them.
This is spot on! Pay to Win will be redefined to NOT include those defining it.
Who's really trying to define it ? I don't think the ones spending the money even care what it means.
Anyone emotionally attached to a game and or who isn't open to a truth that there is something wrong in it. Something that happens in EVERY major launch, ever, in the history of the genre.
Whales who are spending money BECAUSE it's P2W, know it. Of course they care, that's why they play it in the 1st place.
Of course, to them, they love it if they are paying to win in a game with massive P2W denial. That's more "content" for them to chew through.
It's a truth now ? How full of yourself you've become that you can dictate right and wrong on how others spend their money. I wonder if you'd be so open to the truth if it was someone else telling you how to spend yours.
"Dictate right and wrong"? Where did you get that one? I said no such thing and you know it.
The truth I spoke of is when certain gamers cannot handle justifiable criticism about their game. That's why I said "There is something wrong in it" Unless you are attempting semantics about what that means. It means no game is perfect. And there are gamers who will say no game is perfect and they will criticize everyone else's game, but don't anyone dare say anything about their game because they don't really want to admit that no game is perfect. Or at least no else one is allowed to say it.
I have no idea what you thought that meant, but it has nothing to do with dictating right and wrong? And what makes you so self righteous? Judging someone for judging someone? You get to put words in my mouth to justify a personal attack?
Means nothing to me as I don't play MMO's to win .. since i decided to play FTP type games I think I have spend a grand total of $25 in the last 2-3 years of playing..
I am currently back on Rift and having fun without spending a dime , well at least for 2 months now but I do wish I had a 150% mount
People who don't like Archeage for whatever reason = pay for any advantage is pay to win
People who don't mind Archeage = pay to win is paying for items that directly affects your power level
I myself have a very lose opinion of pay to win, as I realises DEVELOPERS HAS TO MAKE MONEY. As long as they are not selling things in cash shop that are not directly obtainable in game, they are just a sub-game of a different implementation, not pay to win.
People takes the Free 2 Play motto too literally... if it is really free, than why would they be running the game? For love? Who the f**k are you that they gotta love you? lol
Originally posted by Axxar Pay 2 Win is when you get some sort of in-game advantage through out-of-game money. For example if you buy a sword or an XP boost. The worst kind of Pay 2 Win is when you get an advantage not possible without paying, for example if the best sword in the game can only be obtained through real money or extreme amounts of grinding to the point of being impractical to most.
Over time Pay 2 Win has for some people been watered down to only mean stuff obtainable only through payment. This is often done by Pay 2 Win apologists who feel bad about having paid to get an advantage over other players. They want the advantage but don't like being associated with the the kind of player they are, so they attempt to redefine the Pay 2 Win concept so it doesn't apply to them.
This is spot on! Pay to Win will be redefined to NOT include those defining it.
Who's really trying to define it ? I don't think the ones spending the money even care what it means.
Anyone emotionally attached to a game and or who isn't open to a truth that there is something wrong in it. Something that happens in EVERY major launch, ever, in the history of the genre.
Whales who are spending money BECAUSE it's P2W, know it. Of course they care, that's why they play it in the 1st place.
Of course, to them, they love it if they are paying to win in a game with massive P2W denial. That's more "content" for them to chew through.
It's a truth now ? How full of yourself you've become that you can dictate right and wrong on how others spend their money. I wonder if you'd be so open to the truth if it was someone else telling you how to spend yours.
"Dictate right and wrong"? Where did you get that one? I said no such thing and you know it.
The truth I spoke of is when certain gamers cannot handle justifiable criticism about their game. That's why I said "There is something wrong in it" Unless you are attempting semantics about what that means. It means no game is perfect. And there are gamers who will say no game is perfect and they will criticize everyone else's game, but don't anyone dare say anything about their game because they don't really want to admit that no game is perfect. Or at least no else one is allowed to say it.
I have no idea what you thought that meant, but it has nothing to do with dictating right and wrong? And what makes you so self righteous? Judging someone for judging someone? You get to put words in my mouth to justify a personal attack?
I'm judging you because you're so wrapped up in your opinion you seem to think it isn't one and it's somehow become a fact that these cash shops are wrong. Calling some " in massive p2w denial" doesn't leave much room for misunderstanding. You are saying how they spend their money is wrong and they have something to hide or be ashamed of. It's their money and they're having fun with it. If it doesn't meet your approval....too bad.
And like I said, people like you are the only ones that really seem to need the term. It only ever seems to get used by people complaining about what others are doing with their money.
Comments
Easy answer.
If real money, outside of a subscription, gives you an advantage... then that is PAY TO WIN.
ArcheAge is 100% PAY TO WIN.
Player A can spend hours and hours doing the most redundant mining to sell / make gold.
Player B can buy "apex" or "cash shop" items and sell them within minutes and make the same money.
PAY TO WIN.
People who claim AA is not P2W are delusional.
By some of your definitions...
If I buy an XP boost and get to level 20 in 2 weeks time I am paying to win but if I play the game 8 hours a day and get to level 20 in one week that is NOT pay to win? How did the first person win?
If I buy a low cut shirt for my female avatar that shows my boobs and makes you not hit the attack key for one second, that gives me an advantage so it is pay to win? Some of you claim ANY advantage is pay to win.
I do agree with some previous posters that XP boosts and what-not can be considered Pay-for-Power. I also think you have to consider the situation. If I jump into WoW now and want to skip the questing and just get into raiding like most people, is it wrong or Pay-to-win for me to level to 90 at the cash shop so I can join my friends and raid? On the other hand, when a game just launched and you pay money to get to a level higher than everyone else so you can dominate in PvP I do consider that pay-to-win.
Pay 2 Win is when you get some sort of in-game advantage through out-of-game money. For example if you buy a sword or an XP boost. The worst kind of Pay 2 Win is when you get an advantage not possible without paying, for example if the best sword in the game can only be obtained through real money or extreme amounts of grinding to the point of being impractical to most.
Over time Pay 2 Win has for some people been watered down to only mean stuff obtainable only through payment. This is often done by Pay 2 Win apologists who feel bad about having paid to get an advantage over other players. They want the advantage but don't like being associated with the the kind of player they are, so they attempt to redefine the Pay 2 Win concept so it doesn't apply to them.
F2P games that base their business model on whaling typically use a combination of Pay-to-Win and Play-to-Win. So sure, that person with the exp boost is paying to win, and that person playing 8 hours a day is PLaying to win, but what about the person who uses the exp boost AND plays 8 hours a day?
As an aside, any smart whaling company will ensure the bar is high enough that the Pay-AND-Play-to-Win guy never reaches it or only barely reaches it, while the Pay-to-win guy (who still plays a little, at least, obviously) gets higher than the "Does not pay at all but plays more" guy. This ensures maximum spending while also giving players a game to actually PLAY so that the whales stick around. Archeage, like many FB games, tricks players into this by making max level not too hard to get, and even max equipment kiiiinda doable for semi-whales, but max equipment UPGRADES an entirely different story altogether. I'm pretty sure the main goal is to make players not realize the costs of continuing to play the game at the higher end where the competition gets fierce until they're already invested.
As another aside, EVERY whaling company also makes it impossible to play 8 hours a day unless you pay. Why bother with that "play to win" guy when you can cut him out almost entirely? He's not giving you money after all. Archeage does this via its labor point system (which includes to some extent the "I only pay $15 a month" guy, since Patron status doesn't get rid of the LP system so much as only alleviate it a bit, and not enough to give enough LP for 8 hours a day at higher levels...), although it's not as restrictive as other games.
Another common business strategy for whaling F2P MMOs is to make the labor point cost low at first then increase it later. That way you're already invested in the game and thus more likely to pay when you hit the labor point wall. Again, Archeage does this. People say "I have no LP problems as a patron!" but they haven't gotten to the higher levels yet where the LP costs keep going up and up and up.
Honestly, this isn't unique to Archeage. This sort of business strategy is nigh ubiquitous in almost every Facebook Browser game in existance. If anything, it's toned down a bit for Archeage... although the fact that a non-browser based MMO can be compared to a browser FB whaling game in the first place is not a good thing.
From the Urban Dictionary - Pay to win definition - "Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items than everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying."
By this definition AA is definitely P2W. Even Massively in their Day 6 review of AA said point blank it is P2W.
Another thing I keep trying to emphasize but most people don't seem to realize is that the nature of the game itself matters, too.
For competitive games, P2W has much greater meaning than for not-so-competitive games. Most (not all) people don't particularly care about buying lv90 chars in WoW because it's only kiiiiinda competitive.
In a game like Archeage, however, with open-world PvP, the ability to skip to max level faster and get better gear faster and sell cash shop items to others for gold to make yourself stronger with takes on an entirely new meaning and significance.
Again, this is typical whaling strategy for most facebook browser games. Encourage competition amongst players and a cash shop that offers some advantages and if you do it right, you'll have players locked into money-fights where they might as well be throwing each others' money at each other (with the company picking it up!). And again, Archeage isn't as bad as those facebook games in this regard but it's still there.
That, my friend, is the keystone of F2P. Keep players in the dark about the real cost of playing until they feel they've 'spent too much time' to quit. Then start drawing from that well. Another poster mentioned long ago that F2P games may start out with an ok model but will become more P2W over time, to maximize revenue.
For the record, I will play a game that has xp potions, haste potions, etc. I won't play games with harsher P2W models such as Planetside 2 and World of Tanks, Star Trek Online (which is a shame because I'm a huge start trek fan).
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
When you apply this definition and look at the fact that subbers can sell LP's via tax certs and use loyalty points to sell workers comp potions to earn gold to buy better weapons/gear then I agree the mechanic can be considered P2W. But I think it is very different from buying a weapon that cant be found in the game without paying extra. This is why I like the term Pay-for-Power. Archeage allows you to get power faster but that power is no different than the power a F2P person can get if he grinds enough.
Personally I dont mind when a game allows you to bypass boring parts like buying an XP boost to skip some quests. I do mind when you can buy a sword that out damages all other weapons in the game and you can only get it by spending money. I do see where many of you get your idea that Archeage can be considered P2W. I also think there are different severities of P2W and Archeage is closer to the lower end.
2) I don't know if I have a good answer here. The only thing I can think of that comes close would be the commonly held "Costume Contests" that City of Heroes players held. Influence (in game cash) could be won by buying costume packs. Maybe if a player's "I Win!" situation is having their avatar with immense cleavage, then yes, they paid to win
As for the part I underlined, isn't any advantage that a player pays for the very spirit of P2W?
In my mind, it is a form of cheating. One CAN cheat while playing solitaire.
There is one scenario where I would see this as justified. A PvP player wants to get into PvP. Most MMOs with PvP have PvP behind a PvE wall. PvP players usually HAVE to go through some PvE before getting to the PvP they want. These players have to be careful, though, that their XP Boosts do not give them an advantage once to the PvP part.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)
Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)
Who's really trying to define it ? I don't think the ones spending the money even care what it means.
Anyone emotionally attached to a game and or who isn't open to a truth that there is something wrong in it. Something that happens in EVERY major launch, ever, in the history of the genre.
Whales who are spending money BECAUSE it's P2W, know it. Of course they care, that's why they play it in the 1st place.
Of course, to them, they love it if they are paying to win in a game with massive P2W denial. That's more "content" for them to chew through.
Well, when you consider such clever and meaningful responses such as yours, it's no wonder discussions get lost.
Time should be the only advantage anyone ever has, since it cannot be regulated due to the different time schedules of millions of people that play MMOs.
When you have to pay money for items that give an advantage, then it's p2w.
Now, what is "winning", in this sense? Winning can mean a lot of things, whether it's leveling faster with xp boosts, reputation gains, gold boosts, loot drops, gear enhancements, etc.
This is why i dislike freemium/hybrid subscription models, because subscribers will always have an advantage.
I should also add, that 4 years ago, these types of systems would've been shunned by western players, but not anymore. It has become the norm.
It's a truth now ? How full of yourself you've become that you can dictate right and wrong on how others spend their money. I wonder if you'd be so open to the truth if it was someone else telling you how to spend yours.
Anytime cash can be used to gain.
Every single last mmorpg with a cash to gold conversion system is p2w. There are varying degrees of p2w from game to game, but if they have a $$ to gold conversion system, they are p2w.
Any game that allows anything to be done quicker/faster, obtained easier...If the game has some system to collect styles, clothes, pets, mounts and adds further of these collectables as buy only it ruins the entire collecting system in the process that the game is about, thus making it less worthy to be played and collect/obtain these things. If the game also has some recipes, system in place that makes it more convenient to hoard, collect items in inventory is also considered P2W if it charges for extra space. If the game allows players to purchase game time that they can trade it for ingame currency it's also P2W since the game is based around economy with currency in place.
So, basically any game that's F2P with cash shop attached will always be on a lower quality/standard then the game that is completely free or with a monthly sub. And then any game that has cheaper sub fee or doesn't charge for expansions will be always better choice and attract bigger market then the one that can do the same only for higher fee/price.
At the end players have to decide what's the best choice for them. For me it's always if I can enjoy a product while saving the most $ in the process I'll take it/be part of it.
"Dictate right and wrong"? Where did you get that one? I said no such thing and you know it.
The truth I spoke of is when certain gamers cannot handle justifiable criticism about their game. That's why I said "There is something wrong in it" Unless you are attempting semantics about what that means. It means no game is perfect. And there are gamers who will say no game is perfect and they will criticize everyone else's game, but don't anyone dare say anything about their game because they don't really want to admit that no game is perfect. Or at least no else one is allowed to say it.
I have no idea what you thought that meant, but it has nothing to do with dictating right and wrong? And what makes you so self righteous? Judging someone for judging someone? You get to put words in my mouth to justify a personal attack?
Pay to win = Hearthstone
Means nothing to me as I don't play MMO's to win .. since i decided to play FTP type games I think I have spend a grand total of $25 in the last 2-3 years of playing..
I am currently back on Rift and having fun without spending a dime , well at least for 2 months now but I do wish I had a 150% mount
I think thread all I see is:
People who don't like Archeage for whatever reason = pay for any advantage is pay to win
People who don't mind Archeage = pay to win is paying for items that directly affects your power level
I myself have a very lose opinion of pay to win, as I realises DEVELOPERS HAS TO MAKE MONEY. As long as they are not selling things in cash shop that are not directly obtainable in game, they are just a sub-game of a different implementation, not pay to win.
People takes the Free 2 Play motto too literally... if it is really free, than why would they be running the game? For love? Who the f**k are you that they gotta love you? lol
I'm judging you because you're so wrapped up in your opinion you seem to think it isn't one and it's somehow become a fact that these cash shops are wrong. Calling some " in massive p2w denial" doesn't leave much room for misunderstanding. You are saying how they spend their money is wrong and they have something to hide or be ashamed of. It's their money and they're having fun with it. If it doesn't meet your approval....too bad.
And like I said, people like you are the only ones that really seem to need the term. It only ever seems to get used by people complaining about what others are doing with their money.