"Dictate right and wrong"? Where did you get that one? I said no such thing and you know it.
I'm judging you because you're so wrapped up in your opinion you seem to think it isn't one and it's somehow become a fact that these cash shops are wrong. Calling some " in massive p2w denial" doesn't leave much room for misunderstanding. You are saying how they spend their money is wrong and they have something to hide or be ashamed of. It's their money and they're having fun with it. If it doesn't meet your approval....too bad.
And like I said, people like you are the only ones that really seem to need the term. It only ever seems to get used by people complaining about what others are doing with their money.
You seem to be forgetting that its not singleplayer game you are destroying for yourself. Its MMO and as long as it affects my game, I will care. If you bought granades and were throwing them in my garden, I would care as well.
And yes, you are doing it wrong and should be ashamed of being p2w scum.
I'm judging you because you're so wrapped up in your opinion you seem to think it isn't one and it's somehow become a fact that these cash shops are wrong. Calling some " in massive p2w denial" doesn't leave much room for misunderstanding. You are saying how they spend their money is wrong and they have something to hide or be ashamed of. It's their money and they're having fun with it. If it doesn't meet your approval....too bad.
And like I said, people like you are the only ones that really seem to need the term. It only ever seems to get used by people complaining about what others are doing with their money.
That's not dictating right and wrong as you said. It's stating that I observed something you didn't like. This is nothing more than your opinion about my opinion. So this is how we deal with opinions we don't share? Deliberately misrepresent what someone really said in order to justify a personal attack?
Also, you seem to be forgetting something. You left out the part where what others can do with their money negatively impacts what I can do with mine. So If I have a problem with that, you get to judge me?
Originally posted by Sulaa P2W = When by paying more $ = you get more stuff in-game or/and you get it quicker. Yes that mean that basically any kind of microtransactions in mmorpg's is p2w.
Some MTs are only cosmetic though and therefore not P2W. Like skins in Dota 2 (not an MMO, but a good example still) or a name change in WoW.
"Dictate right and wrong"? Where did you get that one? I said no such thing and you know it.
I'm judging you because you're so wrapped up in your opinion you seem to think it isn't one and it's somehow become a fact that these cash shops are wrong. Calling some " in massive p2w denial" doesn't leave much room for misunderstanding. You are saying how they spend their money is wrong and they have something to hide or be ashamed of. It's their money and they're having fun with it. If it doesn't meet your approval....too bad.
And like I said, people like you are the only ones that really seem to need the term. It only ever seems to get used by people complaining about what others are doing with their money.
You seem to be forgetting that its not singleplayer game you are destroying for yourself. Its MMO and as long as it affects my game, I will care. If you bought granades and were throwing them in my garden, I would care as well.
And yes, you are doing it wrong and should be ashamed of being p2w scum.
If the game sells grenades and puts in the mechanic that allows me to throw them into your garden...then doing it isn't "wrong" and you're the one forgetting it's not a single player game. Dealing with other people and how they play ( with in the rules of the game ) is part of what an mmo is about. Not you telling others what is and isn't ok to do.
If the game has it and you don't like it don't play it. Attacking the people who make use of what the game offers isn't the solution.
To me a game is pay to win when there is widespread open world pvp and there are short cuts to better gear via the cash shop available . Archeage is very much a pay to win model in my books .
"Dictate right and wrong"? Where did you get that one? I said no such thing and you know it.
I'm judging you because you're so wrapped up in your opinion you seem to think it isn't one and it's somehow become a fact that these cash shops are wrong. Calling some " in massive p2w denial" doesn't leave much room for misunderstanding. You are saying how they spend their money is wrong and they have something to hide or be ashamed of. It's their money and they're having fun with it. If it doesn't meet your approval....too bad.
And like I said, people like you are the only ones that really seem to need the term. It only ever seems to get used by people complaining about what others are doing with their money.
You seem to be forgetting that its not singleplayer game you are destroying for yourself. Its MMO and as long as it affects my game, I will care. If you bought granades and were throwing them in my garden, I would care as well.
And yes, you are doing it wrong and should be ashamed of being p2w scum.
If the game sells grenades and puts in the mechanic that allows me to throw them into your garden...then doing it isn't "wrong" and you're the one forgetting it's not a single player game. Dealing with other people and how they play ( with in the rules of the game ) is part of what an mmo is about. Not you telling others what is and isn't ok to do.
If the game has it and you don't like it don't play it. Attacking the people who make use of what the game offers isn't the solution.
People dealing with others and how they play with in the rules of the game, then not liking it and not playing it is one of the reasons Archeage is failing in other regions. It's one of the main reasons Ultima Online was starting to die before Trammel was introduced, but UO at least didn't have a cash shop to give people even more of a leg-up when it came to that open world pvp.
At any rate, I fully expect the case to be the same here (after all, if it happened with UO in the western hemisphere, I'm sure the playerbase culture can't be THAT different from the Asian and Russian regions). Of course, like UO, it'll take some time to get there, but the cash shop and gear-based nature of the game might accelerate the process a bit.
P2W = When by paying more $ = you get more stuff in-game or/and you get it quicker.
Yes that mean that basically any kind of microtransactions in mmorpg's is p2w.
That is not what it means.
Pay to win only occurs when you pay for an advantage over other players.
Yea, these people keep straw-manning things and ignoring all the posts explaining that there needs to be meaningful COMPETITION in an MMO before P2W can even have a chance at having meaning.
You can't "P2W" in Path of Exile or Marvel Heroes as most people define it because in those games, PvP is entirely just for fun with no meaningful rewards or penalties for winning or losing for the most part (for the most part). Likewise, no matter how many gems you buy in the cash shop and sell to other players for gold, you can't really P2W in GW2 for the same reasons (World vs World PvP doesn't give meaningful rewards for one). And then you have other games that are PvE focused but you basically need the cash shop upgrades to reasonably advance any further and do the top end content, but most people don't call that P2W (exactly what they call it, I'm not sure, since they typically run away angrily shouting and screaming when they come to that realization). Some people call that P2W but their tone about it typically is different from P2W in a competitive environment.
Of course, you get a bunch of trolls or semantic nonsense people who's own definition of P2W includes buying costumes to look good because looking good is winning, but at that point those people are just straw-manning things for argument's sake.
P2W = When by paying more $ = you get more stuff in-game or/and you get it quicker.
Yes that mean that basically any kind of microtransactions in mmorpg's is p2w.
That is not what it means.
Pay to win only occurs when you pay for an advantage over other players.
Sure. But people play for many reasons. When someone motivation for playing is looks or /and rarity - then getting cosmetic item = getting an advantage. Same with getting an combat item in PVE game or anything in-game basically.
I don't know any companies that openly sell you the game beating achievements in their games. Maybe third party companies that hack your account, but not the actual game makers.
But let's discuss the other meanings people have brought up.
Pay for an advantage? Well, it depends on if the advantage is directly tied to combat. Buying gold to get better gear can be pay to win. Buying a plot of land that lets you farm materials to make better gear could be pay to win. Buying materials, in the case that these materials are used to make the most powerful gear, available in the cash shop, where those materials are more scarcely found in game, could be pay to win.
But if you're paying for something like experience potions or cosmetics, you're not winning any direct competition except for the fact that you leveled faster or you look prettier.
Paying for expansions? Well.... this is the argument that a lot of people don't like, because they think an expansion is just part of the game. But if you look at it in the technical sense, if you pay for an expansion that offers a level increase or better gear, then technically that is pay to win, because a person who doesn't buy that expansion will not have access to that content.
All that said, Guild Wars 2, ArcheAge, Rift, and other free to play/buy to play games all have elements of pay to win by most of the definitions seen here.
Still, until I see ccompanies directly selling the achievements that say someone 'beat' the game when they really didn't, ie clear that hard raid boss, got those bazillion pvp kills, etc., I don't care, because if you play the game, and you are good, and you pvp them, assuming equal or similar level, you will beat them 90% of the time.
The other 10% being bad RNG and FoTM classes that just pwn. Oh, and I almost forgot, lag.
Iron Realms for instance are free to play games that put up barriers to players to pay money to advance their characters, and also sell powerups for real money - I think this goes beyond the traditional pay for perks model and crosses into the pay to win territory.
Compare that to Avalon where buying a subscription and being sponsored (free play) offer IDENTICAL opportunities for progression to players and these are two good examples of a distinction.
When there are items for sale that allow one player to do something BETTER than another, I think this is where pay to win becomes a reality. When the things being sold simply allow FASTER progression but toward an endresult that ANY player could achieve over time, this is NOT pay to win.
Pay to win is not a literal concept. This is a term that came about in relation to multiplayer online games, which are open ended. What it refers to is the concept of trading real world currency for in game benefits.
I do not necessarily find the concept to be a bad one. However, when a company deliberately puts in road blocks, or time sinks that hinder game play, and then sells a way around these negative gaming experiences, a happy gamer I do not become.
P2W = When by paying more $ = you get more stuff in-game or/and you get it quicker.
Yes that mean that basically any kind of microtransactions in mmorpg's is p2w.
That is not what it means.
Pay to win only occurs when you pay for an advantage over other players.
And where does this definition exist? Because I've looked for it, and in the largest repository of information in the history of the human race, the definition that Loktofeit presented (buying an expansion) is the closest to an official definition there is.
This is another one of those terms that isn't defined. Hence the topic. What does P2W mean to you? If this term was defined, then the topic wouldn't make any sense.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
P2W = When by paying more $ = you get more stuff in-game or/and you get it quicker.
Yes that mean that basically any kind of microtransactions in mmorpg's is p2w.
That is not what it means.
Pay to win only occurs when you pay for an advantage over other players.
And where does this definition exist? Because I've looked for it, and in the largest repository of information in the history of the human race, the definition that Loktofeit presented (buying an expansion) is the closest to an official definition there is.
This is another one of those terms that isn't defined. Hence the topic. What does P2W mean to you? If this term was defined, then the topic wouldn't make any sense.
With the exception of the 1 or 2 ridiculous posts in this thread, I have never heard or read anyone try to claim that buying expansions is an example of pay-to-win. In fact it's one of the most ridiculous things I've read on those forums. Pay to win is rarely associated with buy to play + subscription games, which are the ones that typically charge money for expansions. If we're gonna go full retard and claim that paid expansions is pay to win, then why not go one step further and say that buying the original game is pay to win as well. Because, you know, if my friend buys WoW and I don't, his character will get more and more powerful while I wont even have a character! So he's definitely winning and he paid for it! lol
Well buying expansions gives you access to more levels more more great than those that don't have it. No it doesn't give you the levels and gear but neither does xp potion. Just access to then. So if potions are P2W then so are expansions.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Well buying expansions gives you access to more levels more more great than those that don't have it. No it doesn't give you the levels and gear but neither does xp potion. Just access to then. So if potions are P2W then so are expansions.
An expansion pack is just that, an expansion of the game. No different than buying the original game itself, an expansion is more game content. If I choose not to pay for WoW's WoD expansion, I won't be in the same dungeons, raids, BG's, zones, arena's etc. as the people who do buy the expansion. So there's no competition between me and them at that point, which means there's no winning. They simply have access to game content that I do not. I understand that there's some leeway in the definition of pay-to-win, but there comes a point where the phrase loses any meaning at all when people try to tack it on to anything that costs money. At that point, you can't even call it "pay-to-win", you need to just start calling it "pay".
P2W = When by paying more $ = you get more stuff in-game or/and you get it quicker.
Yes that mean that basically any kind of microtransactions in mmorpg's is p2w.
That is not what it means.
Pay to win only occurs when you pay for an advantage over other players.
And where does this definition exist? Because I've looked for it, and in the largest repository of information in the history of the human race, the definition that Loktofeit presented (buying an expansion) is the closest to an official definition there is.
This is another one of those terms that isn't defined. Hence the topic. What does P2W mean to you? If this term was defined, then the topic wouldn't make any sense.
With the exception of the 1 or 2 ridiculous posts in this thread, I have never heard or read anyone try to claim that buying expansions is an example of pay-to-win. In fact it's one of the most ridiculous things I've read on those forums. Pay to win is rarely associated with buy to play + subscription games, which are the ones that typically charge money for expansions. If we're gonna go full retard and claim that paid expansions is pay to win, then why not go one step further and say that buying the original game is pay to win as well. Because, you know, if my friend buys WoW and I don't, his character will get more and more powerful while I wont even have a character! So he's definitely winning and he paid for it! lol
If you consider any microtransaction ( the first quoted post) to be p2w you've already gone full retard. When people can say " winning" is anything I decide it to be and if you paid for that it's p2w..and then say p2w is wrong and game breaking. There is no defining the term. The people trying to define it are just complaining that others are spending money and they don't want to.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar If they use their higher level and or better gear to compete in arena at your level or in areas your level there absolutely is competition.
Arenas and battlegrounds are bracketed by level. If I don't buy WoD and stay at level 90, I'll never be in the same BG or Arena as the person who buys WoD and levels to 100.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar If they use their higher level and or better gear to compete in arena at your level or in areas your level there absolutely is competition.
Arenas and battlegrounds are bracketed by level. If I don't buy WoD and stay at level 90, I'll never be in the same BG or Arena as the person who buys WoD and levels to 100.
Blizzard accountants werent so nice. They designed it in such way that you will be playing in 90-94 bracket. You just simply cant not to buy expansion and still play WoW. Its not an option.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar If they use their higher level and or better gear to compete in arena at your level or in areas your level there absolutely is competition.
Arenas and battlegrounds are bracketed by level. If I don't buy WoD and stay at level 90, I'll never be in the same BG or Arena as the person who buys WoD and levels to 100.
Blizzard accountants werent so nice. They designed it in such way that you will be playing in 90-94 bracket. You just simply cant not to buy expansion and still play WoW. Its not an option.
Of course it's an option not to buy the expansion. And if you choose not to, I assure you that your game will work just fine. You simply wont have access to the new expansion content.
well, i guess we can agree on one point: 'pay to win' means giving people the opportunity to get an advantage over others through real money (similar to doping in sports). there are two major advantages a player can get: gear and ingame currency. under this perspective many games do support 'pay to win'. but .... as customer we have to differ the level of pay to win for each game. while games like atlantica online, metin2 or runes of magic are without doubt heavy p2w supporters, games like swtor or gw2 may offer the same p2w mechanics, but the level of advantage a player can gain over others is minimal.
and instead of defending 'our' current favorite game or get lost in the determination which game offers what level of pay to win, we, the customers should encourage the industry to go back to the 'old and clean' pay to play concept. you pay a monthly fee and only the amount of time a player invests defines his status and not how many real money he throw into a game.
P2W = When by paying more $ = you get more stuff in-game or/and you get it quicker.
Yes that mean that basically any kind of microtransactions in mmorpg's is p2w.
That is not what it means.
Pay to win only occurs when you pay for an advantage over other players.
And where does this definition exist? Because I've looked for it, and in the largest repository of information in the history of the human race, the definition that Loktofeit presented (buying an expansion) is the closest to an official definition there is.
This is another one of those terms that isn't defined. Hence the topic. What does P2W mean to you? If this term was defined, then the topic wouldn't make any sense.
With the exception of the 1 or 2 ridiculous posts in this thread, I have never heard or read anyone try to claim that buying expansions is an example of pay-to-win. In fact it's one of the most ridiculous things I've read on those forums. Pay to win is rarely associated with buy to play + subscription games, which are the ones that typically charge money for expansions. If we're gonna go full retard and claim that paid expansions is pay to win, then why not go one step further and say that buying the original game is pay to win as well. Because, you know, if my friend buys WoW and I don't, his character will get more and more powerful while I wont even have a character! So he's definitely winning and he paid for it! lol
You know what, I'm going to have to go back on what I said. It's been awhile since I went looking for sources and information on P2W, and in the time between the last time I went looking and now the prevalent definition is paying for an advantage that makes skill pointless. The first definition was paying for content that you would otherwise not see. I am reasonably sure I did not imagine that.
Paying for content still exists (the example is DCUO, where you can play for free, but you won't finish the content without paying money), but the prevalent example is the difference between paying and non-paying or paying less players and what they can accomplish in the game.
Actually, that's probably a good, general purpose definition. A game is Pay To Win when the players can pay money or pay more money to achieve more in the game, and where that difference between paying and non-paying or paying less customers cannot be overcome by skill.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Some cmopanies are getting away with P2W by seeling low level gear in the cash shop. Assuming that every player only cares about max level/end game content so they use the excuse that they sell only low level gear that is irrelevant at max level.
That is still pay to win to me (Rift does this). Why is is pay to win for me if the gear is low level? because i dont play mmos for max level and end game. IF i wanted to play for max level and end game content i would go to WoW and purchase a mqax level character instead of leveling from zero.
If you are level 20 and you buy a lvl 20 set of gear in a cash shop, and i am anywhere between lvl 18-22 using looted gear and your shiny cash shop gear helps you kill me, the game is pay to win. The level does not matter, if the p2w practice is in game, then they got away with it. Again, not everyone cares about max level. We will reach mx level at some point and naturally start doing end game. Until that day comes, my character will be at a disadvantage his entire journey every time he faces a cash shop user at any level.
My 2 cents. Any game that sells gear, dont get my money. They could sell the skins instead.
Comments
You seem to be forgetting that its not singleplayer game you are destroying for yourself. Its MMO and as long as it affects my game, I will care. If you bought granades and were throwing them in my garden, I would care as well.
And yes, you are doing it wrong and should be ashamed of being p2w scum.
That's not dictating right and wrong as you said. It's stating that I observed something you didn't like. This is nothing more than your opinion about my opinion. So this is how we deal with opinions we don't share? Deliberately misrepresent what someone really said in order to justify a personal attack?
Also, you seem to be forgetting something. You left out the part where what others can do with their money negatively impacts what I can do with mine. So If I have a problem with that, you get to judge me?
P2W = When by paying more $ = you get more stuff in-game or/and you get it quicker.
Yes that mean that basically any kind of microtransactions in mmorpg's is p2w.
If the game sells grenades and puts in the mechanic that allows me to throw them into your garden...then doing it isn't "wrong" and you're the one forgetting it's not a single player game. Dealing with other people and how they play ( with in the rules of the game ) is part of what an mmo is about. Not you telling others what is and isn't ok to do.
If the game has it and you don't like it don't play it. Attacking the people who make use of what the game offers isn't the solution.
That is not what it means.
Pay to win only occurs when you pay for an advantage over other players.
People dealing with others and how they play with in the rules of the game, then not liking it and not playing it is one of the reasons Archeage is failing in other regions. It's one of the main reasons Ultima Online was starting to die before Trammel was introduced, but UO at least didn't have a cash shop to give people even more of a leg-up when it came to that open world pvp.
At any rate, I fully expect the case to be the same here (after all, if it happened with UO in the western hemisphere, I'm sure the playerbase culture can't be THAT different from the Asian and Russian regions). Of course, like UO, it'll take some time to get there, but the cash shop and gear-based nature of the game might accelerate the process a bit.
Yea, these people keep straw-manning things and ignoring all the posts explaining that there needs to be meaningful COMPETITION in an MMO before P2W can even have a chance at having meaning.
You can't "P2W" in Path of Exile or Marvel Heroes as most people define it because in those games, PvP is entirely just for fun with no meaningful rewards or penalties for winning or losing for the most part (for the most part). Likewise, no matter how many gems you buy in the cash shop and sell to other players for gold, you can't really P2W in GW2 for the same reasons (World vs World PvP doesn't give meaningful rewards for one). And then you have other games that are PvE focused but you basically need the cash shop upgrades to reasonably advance any further and do the top end content, but most people don't call that P2W (exactly what they call it, I'm not sure, since they typically run away angrily shouting and screaming when they come to that realization). Some people call that P2W but their tone about it typically is different from P2W in a competitive environment.
Of course, you get a bunch of trolls or semantic nonsense people who's own definition of P2W includes buying costumes to look good because looking good is winning, but at that point those people are just straw-manning things for argument's sake.
Sure. But people play for many reasons. When someone motivation for playing is looks or /and rarity - then getting cosmetic item = getting an advantage. Same with getting an combat item in PVE game or anything in-game basically.
What's pay to win mean to me?
Pay to win means you paid and beat the game.
I don't know any companies that openly sell you the game beating achievements in their games. Maybe third party companies that hack your account, but not the actual game makers.
But let's discuss the other meanings people have brought up.
Pay for an advantage? Well, it depends on if the advantage is directly tied to combat. Buying gold to get better gear can be pay to win. Buying a plot of land that lets you farm materials to make better gear could be pay to win. Buying materials, in the case that these materials are used to make the most powerful gear, available in the cash shop, where those materials are more scarcely found in game, could be pay to win.
But if you're paying for something like experience potions or cosmetics, you're not winning any direct competition except for the fact that you leveled faster or you look prettier.
Paying for expansions? Well.... this is the argument that a lot of people don't like, because they think an expansion is just part of the game. But if you look at it in the technical sense, if you pay for an expansion that offers a level increase or better gear, then technically that is pay to win, because a person who doesn't buy that expansion will not have access to that content.
All that said, Guild Wars 2, ArcheAge, Rift, and other free to play/buy to play games all have elements of pay to win by most of the definitions seen here.
Still, until I see ccompanies directly selling the achievements that say someone 'beat' the game when they really didn't, ie clear that hard raid boss, got those bazillion pvp kills, etc., I don't care, because if you play the game, and you are good, and you pvp them, assuming equal or similar level, you will beat them 90% of the time.
The other 10% being bad RNG and FoTM classes that just pwn. Oh, and I almost forgot, lag.
There are text games (MUDs) like this as well.
Iron Realms for instance are free to play games that put up barriers to players to pay money to advance their characters, and also sell powerups for real money - I think this goes beyond the traditional pay for perks model and crosses into the pay to win territory.
Compare that to Avalon where buying a subscription and being sponsored (free play) offer IDENTICAL opportunities for progression to players and these are two good examples of a distinction.
When there are items for sale that allow one player to do something BETTER than another, I think this is where pay to win becomes a reality. When the things being sold simply allow FASTER progression but toward an endresult that ANY player could achieve over time, this is NOT pay to win.
8 years and counting addicted to
Avalon: The Legend Lives - the longest running online RPG in history
Pay to win is not a literal concept. This is a term that came about in relation to multiplayer online games, which are open ended. What it refers to is the concept of trading real world currency for in game benefits.
I do not necessarily find the concept to be a bad one. However, when a company deliberately puts in road blocks, or time sinks that hinder game play, and then sells a way around these negative gaming experiences, a happy gamer I do not become.
And where does this definition exist? Because I've looked for it, and in the largest repository of information in the history of the human race, the definition that Loktofeit presented (buying an expansion) is the closest to an official definition there is.
This is another one of those terms that isn't defined. Hence the topic. What does P2W mean to you? If this term was defined, then the topic wouldn't make any sense.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
With the exception of the 1 or 2 ridiculous posts in this thread, I have never heard or read anyone try to claim that buying expansions is an example of pay-to-win. In fact it's one of the most ridiculous things I've read on those forums. Pay to win is rarely associated with buy to play + subscription games, which are the ones that typically charge money for expansions. If we're gonna go full retard and claim that paid expansions is pay to win, then why not go one step further and say that buying the original game is pay to win as well. Because, you know, if my friend buys WoW and I don't, his character will get more and more powerful while I wont even have a character! So he's definitely winning and he paid for it! lol
An expansion pack is just that, an expansion of the game. No different than buying the original game itself, an expansion is more game content. If I choose not to pay for WoW's WoD expansion, I won't be in the same dungeons, raids, BG's, zones, arena's etc. as the people who do buy the expansion. So there's no competition between me and them at that point, which means there's no winning. They simply have access to game content that I do not. I understand that there's some leeway in the definition of pay-to-win, but there comes a point where the phrase loses any meaning at all when people try to tack it on to anything that costs money. At that point, you can't even call it "pay-to-win", you need to just start calling it "pay".
If you consider any microtransaction ( the first quoted post) to be p2w you've already gone full retard. When people can say " winning" is anything I decide it to be and if you paid for that it's p2w..and then say p2w is wrong and game breaking. There is no defining the term. The people trying to define it are just complaining that others are spending money and they don't want to.
Arenas and battlegrounds are bracketed by level. If I don't buy WoD and stay at level 90, I'll never be in the same BG or Arena as the person who buys WoD and levels to 100.
Blizzard accountants werent so nice. They designed it in such way that you will be playing in 90-94 bracket. You just simply cant not to buy expansion and still play WoW. Its not an option.
Of course it's an option not to buy the expansion. And if you choose not to, I assure you that your game will work just fine. You simply wont have access to the new expansion content.
well, i guess we can agree on one point: 'pay to win' means giving people the opportunity to get an advantage over others through real money (similar to doping in sports). there are two major advantages a player can get: gear and ingame currency. under this perspective many games do support 'pay to win'. but .... as customer we have to differ the level of pay to win for each game. while games like atlantica online, metin2 or runes of magic are without doubt heavy p2w supporters, games like swtor or gw2 may offer the same p2w mechanics, but the level of advantage a player can gain over others is minimal.
and instead of defending 'our' current favorite game or get lost in the determination which game offers what level of pay to win, we, the customers should encourage the industry to go back to the 'old and clean' pay to play concept. you pay a monthly fee and only the amount of time a player invests defines his status and not how many real money he throw into a game.
You know what, I'm going to have to go back on what I said. It's been awhile since I went looking for sources and information on P2W, and in the time between the last time I went looking and now the prevalent definition is paying for an advantage that makes skill pointless. The first definition was paying for content that you would otherwise not see. I am reasonably sure I did not imagine that.
Paying for content still exists (the example is DCUO, where you can play for free, but you won't finish the content without paying money), but the prevalent example is the difference between paying and non-paying or paying less players and what they can accomplish in the game.
Actually, that's probably a good, general purpose definition. A game is Pay To Win when the players can pay money or pay more money to achieve more in the game, and where that difference between paying and non-paying or paying less customers cannot be overcome by skill.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
i want to make a comment on P2W.
Some cmopanies are getting away with P2W by seeling low level gear in the cash shop. Assuming that every player only cares about max level/end game content so they use the excuse that they sell only low level gear that is irrelevant at max level.
That is still pay to win to me (Rift does this). Why is is pay to win for me if the gear is low level? because i dont play mmos for max level and end game. IF i wanted to play for max level and end game content i would go to WoW and purchase a mqax level character instead of leveling from zero.
If you are level 20 and you buy a lvl 20 set of gear in a cash shop, and i am anywhere between lvl 18-22 using looted gear and your shiny cash shop gear helps you kill me, the game is pay to win. The level does not matter, if the p2w practice is in game, then they got away with it. Again, not everyone cares about max level. We will reach mx level at some point and naturally start doing end game. Until that day comes, my character will be at a disadvantage his entire journey every time he faces a cash shop user at any level.
My 2 cents. Any game that sells gear, dont get my money. They could sell the skins instead.