Still waiting to see it in live gameplay with 1000s of other players running around and interacting with NPCs.
What is the scalabilty of storybricks? - What are the hard limits of the system?
Again the idea that 10,000s of NPCs would all have a deep branching AI system with 1000s of players interacting with them (and NPCs interacting amongs eachother) ... it's a hard pill to swallow.
I am sure that it can be pulled off - but at what cost? How many Storybricks servers/processes are needed to handle X number of NPCs?
Heavy AI comes at heavy CPU cost - that's why I am questions the scalability as well as depth and breadth of actual final implementation of Storybricks in EQN.
Is every single NPC in game going to be running on Storybricks - or only select "key" NPCs?
I agree.. and as a devils advocate, what happens to OLD sections of the world that no one plays in anymore.. Will storybricks turn those parts of the world into unplayable, or unreasonable? We all know that there are tiers in the world, and history shows us that eventually communities become top heavy as players mature..
Lets use their demo example to explain a potential problem.. Remember the part where the Kobalds own most of the land and only one section was under influence by the dark elves.. What if, to unlock the Shadow Knight class you have to push back the mobs.. That is great and quick early on in the game when 20 players are all trying to do the same thing, but what happens months later or even years, when most everyone is tier 5 and already unlocked that class.. Will newcombers be forced to GRIND extra time to unlock that same content because players "moved on" from that location? I haven't heard anything yet about how old content doesn't become obsolete over time, or trivial..
Without the need for alts, how do you keep newbie areas populated? I question the effect storybricks will have on low tier (aka abandoned) areas of the map.. I hope SOE knows what "Murphy's Law" is..
Forgive me if I am misspeaking on some details as I'm approaching this purely as a theoretical exercise, but the "tiers" you speak of are not a representation of abstract power like in other MMO's - Tier 1, 2, 3 gear for example. But they are actual physical barriers within the game world. Tier 1 being the surface, Tier 2 being the top level of caves, Tier 3 being where water reserves reside, Tier 4 being where molten lava settles, etc. So in theory, there is nothing particularly more powerful or threatening about the subsequent tiers after the surface. It's just another ecosystem of Storybricks.
Now, it might come into play that the deeper you go, the more powerful things might be. This could be for several reasons. Perhaps that by the time you reach that tier, the NPC Groups have already amassed a great deal of might as they went for a relatively long time on autopilot, without players altering their procedural paths. Like the Kobalt scenario - they were able to take the entire western quarter of the map. This was to represent that they had a respectably powerful empire that had to conquer other NPC groups, who were also, simultaneously, trying to grow in power. However, when they implemented player interaction, they were reduced quite effectively.
Another option could just be that the devs place specific starting points of power for certain NPC groups, and also set a specific threshold. I sort of hope they wouldn't do that, as it would completely defeat the point, but it's possible that they might for specific NPC groups. Kobalts for instance aren't particularly a highly organized kind. They might align themselves with Orcs, however, who might possibly be. Though, I don't know much about how storybricks works or if that sort of thing might even occur.
...
At any rate, the main point I wanted to bring up was that assuming the top 90% move to the lower (or higher depending on how you look at it) Tiers of the world. Like, say they start to overpopulate what could be considered the deepest realm. My thinking is that will inevitably create an offset on the surface in that the NPC groups in the traditional "starting areas" will be effectively granted free reign over their realm. And so... it's just business as usual. The frames of power will continue to grow in the wake of how the players shaped the realm. In other words, as the majority leaves the surface, their footprint will create new scenarios for storybricks to spawn new stories. And since there is such a low population of player alteration - whatever originally happened in the higher Tiers, will just happen all over again in what used to be the starting area.
And so now, the population who was at one time top tier, have a new threat to deal with from a completely organic sense. You either migrate back toward the surface, or it could just be that when you visit there... those Kobalts have establish a global seat of power, have successfully resurrected Zuul, who will in turn with the help of the Key Master, Vince Clortho, unlock a portal which would allow Gozer the Traveler to reestablish his/her reign over this dimension by way of the selected Destroyer.... a giant Stay Puft Marshmellow Man.
In other words... wherever the players aren't... there the AI will take over. It's our job as players to keep that sum-bitch in check, lest he put us all in the Matrix.
Not sure if I'm following you right.. However, that said, from what I gather tiers in EQN or not just geographical, but are unlockable areas of progression.. Chasing the tier 5 carrot will be a goal for most, and something I'm sure will show up in the cash shop..
Now you mention something about mobs on the surface migrating to all parts of the world if not kept in check.. I don't think that will happen.. I'm quite confident that SOE will be putting up invisible code walls to keep the dark elves from taking over the human city.. Just like the ocean, there will be ebbs and flows, but unless there is some special event, no one is going to be flooded.. lol
Still waiting to see it in live gameplay with 1000s of other players running around and interacting with NPCs.
What is the scalabilty of storybricks? - What are the hard limits of the system?
Again the idea that 10,000s of NPCs would all have a deep branching AI system with 1000s of players interacting with them (and NPCs interacting amongs eachother) ... it's a hard pill to swallow.
I am sure that it can be pulled off - but at what cost? How many Storybricks servers/processes are needed to handle X number of NPCs?
Heavy AI comes at heavy CPU cost - that's why I am questions the scalability as well as depth and breadth of actual final implementation of Storybricks in EQN.
Is every single NPC in game going to be running on Storybricks - or only select "key" NPCs?
I had a lot of the same thoughts/questions myself. If it works great, but I just can't put a finger on what doesn't feel right. Maybe its just me being tired of getting burned by SOE or the entire genre lately I don't know, but I just can't get my hopes up.
As far as the CPU cost of the AI goes, I have always thought that is why they went with the Disney character models and you can't forget that not only the NPC AI but the entire voxel aspect of constantly having the environment changing around you will require massive amounts of data to eat up bandwidth. That is unless they have addressed this already and I just missed it. Life has gotten in the way of entertainment these past few months so I very well may have missed info regarding that part.
We shall see what SOE can come up with though. I just refuse to get all hyped up anymore though.
Storybricks doesn't run on your computer, it's global to the game and runs on a dedicated (or many) server and all you see on your computer is just the end results...like in any other games. It's no different than monster AI in other game where the information of what they are doing needs to be shared to all players in the area.
Voxel is something else, there is a lot more data being exchanged then in other online games, but at the same time it only happen if things changes and you can see it.
Not sure if I'm following you right.. However, that said, from what I gather tiers in EQN or not just geographical, but are unlockable areas of progression.. Chasing the tier 5 carrot will be a goal for most, and something I'm sure will show up in the cash shop..
Now you mention something about mobs on the surface migrating to all parts of the world if not kept in check.. I don't think that will happen.. I'm quite confident that SOE will be putting up invisible code walls to keep the dark elves from taking over the human city.. Just like the ocean, there will be ebbs and flows, but unless there is some special event, no one is going to be flooded.. lol
What you say could be true as we really don't know all the details yet, but they've said that there is no "end game" and that players won't "beat" or completely outpace content. Just because someone has a Tier 5 Warrior, doesn't mean they can't still play in the other Tiers. This is possible in many ways. If they stick with more MOBA like gear, that is mostly side upgrade stuff, Tier 5 shouldn't be BIS or totally vertical power stacking. Obviously we need more to go by without making large assumptions, but they are calling it a "sandbox" and "virtual world" which don't fit well into the typical themepark carrot on the stick track.
Storybricks doesn't run on your computer, it's global to the game and runs on a dedicated (or many) server and all you see on your computer is just the end results...like in any other games. It's no different than monster AI in other game where the information of what they are doing needs to be shared to all players in the area.
Voxel is something else, there is a lot more data being exchanged then in other online games, but at the same time it only happen if things changes and you can see it.
But Storybricks does run on the ONE singular server in which you are playing on.. There are only two sides in which data is exchanged.. client or host.. The tricky part, which almost all companies face and have yet to defeat is the problem with data management.. Host side (SOE) can only store so much data, no different then our home computers hard drives.. The more variables you put into a game, the more data that must be recorded and managed, and when that happens often host side becomes full and unable to run properly.. We have yet to see or hear details on how thousands of NPC are going to TRULY react with each other and thousands of players as well, let alone the mobs in the world as well..
True about voxels and that is another hurdle that has yet to prove itself.. We all know the more eye candy graphics you use, the more data that is exchanged, hence the restrictions in many game events because most people can not handle all the details with 40 people fighting in one area.. I don't know a game to date that doesn't suffer from this.. Now on top of all that flash and bang combat effects, we add in voxels.. Most people will have to limit their settings to even run the game in large populations such as raids.. I remember when PvP patch first came out in Landmark and one of the youtube posters had to switch his settings because the lag was too much for him to effectively fight with..
Not sure if I'm following you right.. However, that said, from what I gather tiers in EQN or not just geographical, but are unlockable areas of progression.. Chasing the tier 5 carrot will be a goal for most, and something I'm sure will show up in the cash shop..
Now you mention something about mobs on the surface migrating to all parts of the world if not kept in check.. I don't think that will happen.. I'm quite confident that SOE will be putting up invisible code walls to keep the dark elves from taking over the human city.. Just like the ocean, there will be ebbs and flows, but unless there is some special event, no one is going to be flooded.. lol
What you say could be true as we really don't know all the details yet, but they've said that there is no "end game" and that players won't "beat" or completely outpace content. Just because someone has a Tier 5 Warrior, doesn't mean they can't still play in the other Tiers. This is possible in many ways. If they stick with more MOBA like gear, that is mostly side upgrade stuff, Tier 5 shouldn't be BIS or totally vertical power stacking. Obviously we need more to go by without making large assumptions, but they are calling it a "sandbox" and "virtual world" which don't fit well into the typical themepark carrot on the stick track.
But we do know that tier 5 gear is better then tier 1 gear.. That was said by SOE themselves.. It is the carrot to chase, as they even gave an example.. The one dev said his character was going to be like a "Mage Hunter", in which he can use multiple actions back to back to stun and defeat a mobile mage.. He further went on to explain that at tier 1 his energy pool was not large enough to do all the needed actions back to back.. (makes sense), but as he is able to upgrade into higher tier gear, he can pick up "energy" bonus stats, which will allow him to do all that he wants.. so basically.. HIGHER TIER > VERTICAL progression, just dressed differently.. HELLO Cash Shop !!!!
Most games out today, have carrots.. EQN will have carrots too, we just need to identify them and how to get them.. LOL That sadly is part of human gaming psych 101.. Chapter 1 = Chasing the Carrot
I love the video.... but one great system does not make a great game... This looks prommising.... but there are some worries, just naming 3 here
1) How about making combat really really fun (no fun combat means no fun game)
2) Meaningfull NPC interactions and converstions, people are so used to this, that they would really miss it if it wasnt there
3) Personal goals for the Players... in the end this system will boil down to fighting other NPCs battles time after time... what can players gain from it? .. will they have long time goals on top of these short time ones..
These are events on a major scale, but will there also be events on a smaller scale, like the ones we know from GW2, and will there be oldfashioned epic Questing available...
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
This is precisely one of the problems being sorted out by the Sony design studios. One question I have is mathematically, how does the scaling AI stress cpu's? Another question would be why are we considering that there will be "storybrick" servers versus "nonstorybrick" servers?
I am intrigued that "old" areas may not be ignored in a newer thought out scenario. I would wager a guess that options and choices will be throughout the game experience which may lead many back to older areas which have changed in substantial ways, possibly. If you remember, events will take place at various times which bring the server together to accomplish some enormous or epic task. What would keep the GM's from choosing areas in "older" areas. In fact, why even refer to a once explored/conquered zone an old zone if immersive change possibly exists? Yes there may be some grinding. How many mmo's have no grinding at all? I can see an ebb and flow as demonstrated on the video. At times the players will seemingly push back kobolds or orcs, however with a scaling and immersive AI, is it not possible for kobolds, orcs, or whatever groups of "Baddies" to make attempts at regaining control of an area, just as the gamers would try? I LOVE alts and the wonderful aspect of what this game may offer is a new experience for each alt due to the nature of changing server environments!
Sovrath and I agree for the most part in asking why should there even be "starting zones at all? It seems to me that this type of world churns with change each and every week. The players can decide where to take the lore and how to shape their world! Generally, this is a task that is somewhat daunting, I should think. It is taking time. I would rather see this studio do what they need to do to insure that what they have "on paper" is a process that can be accomplished. I also am hoping that what fails to work can be dealt with logically by using what has worked before. The Sony studios should strive to be transparent, and yes I know there is some doubt here, but in general I am not feeling they are attempting some great conspiracy to take our money and run.
The issue is as it seems, that it is taking so long to develop. Or, at least we think it is. How long does it normally take a huge project like this to be completed, three, five, seven, or more years? Even I have questioned whether EQ: N actually exists. I still feel they should have some playable "demo" by August 2015, to show what has been actually completed. If not, well, I fear that they will begin to feel the wrath of gamers tired of hearing about what might be... For me, well I have to decide if patience is the virtue here for this mmo. For now...I can hold out another year and a half, if needed. After that, I probably will loose some enthusiasm. I won't "hate" on Sony though, I'll just become preoccupied with something else...
We shall see.
Alyn
All I want is the truth Just gimme some truth John Lennon
But we do know that tier 5 gear is better then tier 1 gear.. That was said by SOE themselves..
Source?
While I don't doubt that Tiers will have some vertical impact, the little they've said seems to imply it will be more like keying or attunement then straight Tier 1 Boots 10 STR, Tier 5 Boots 100 STR. Tiers appear to be more about increasing challenge level.
It is the carrot to chase, as they even gave an example.. The one dev said his character was going to be like a "Mage Hunter", in which he can use multiple actions back to back to stun and defeat a mobile mage.. He further went on to explain that at tier 1 his energy pool was not large enough to do all the needed actions back to back.. (makes sense), but as he is able to upgrade into higher tier gear, he can pick up "energy" bonus stats, which will allow him to do all that he wants.. so basically.. HIGHER TIER > VERTICAL progression, just dressed differently.. HELLO Cash Shop !!!!
Yes they've said there will be some vertical progression, but if you played any MOBA or even other MMOs that have a more balanced Pro/Con design, usually gaining one thing will decrease something else. As in the Mage Hunter might destroy mages but get stomped by everything else. Isn't a universal power increase vs all.
Regardless of the vertical progression, that doesn't instantly imply that players will only play in Tier 5 as the "end game" and that previous content is obsolete, nor does it have anything to do with the cash shop. Yes there will be a cash shop, what does that have to do with progression?
While EQ had some, the idea of having multiple difficulty levels within one area is a great idea and a way to keep all Tiers worth coming back to. Be it huge "bosses" that randomly appear or roam, large battles with easy but numerous enemies, or whatever design that keeps an area from being "beat" and a ghost town.
We simply don't know enough yet of how Tiers will work for Classes and the World, which don't appear to be the same thing entirely.
Most games out today, have carrots.. EQN will have carrots too, we just need to identify them and how to get them.. LOL That sadly is part of human gaming psych 101.. Chapter 1 = Chasing the Carrot
Of course. If there is no goal, why play. With a more sandbox approach the goals and carrots can become more of our choosing. I'm not sure if you are implying that carrots should be removed or not. I have no problem with there being achievement and goals to obtain. But I do not believe that they have to be designed in the same way as most themeparks where content/rewards are better by default because they are in a higher tier bracket. That is an easy way to do it, but not the only way.
How people cant see what Storybricks could do for MMOing blows my mind. It has more potential to change MMOing then any other system in any other game in development. I really hope SoE pulls this off.
Originally posted by Nanfoodle How people cant see what Storybricks could do for MMOing blows my mind. It has more potential to change MMOing then any other system in any other game in development. I really hope SoE pulls this off.
Originally posted by Nanfoodle How people cant see what Storybricks could do for MMOing blows my mind. It has more potential to change MMOing then any other system in any other game in development. I really hope SoE pulls this off.
More like how many people are blinded by the overhyped promises SOE are rolling out that they can't possibly keep. They don't have the knowledge nor money to make this all work nearly as well as they're saying it will. Keep getting hyped time and time again for every new game and keep being disappointed.
Originally posted by Nanfoodle How people cant see what Storybricks could do for MMOing blows my mind. It has more potential to change MMOing then any other system in any other game in development. I really hope SoE pulls this off.
More like how many people are blinded by the overhyped promises SOE are rolling out that they can't possibly keep. They don't have the knowledge nor money to make this all work nearly as well as they're saying it will.
This is baseless and not even opinion. SOE certainly has the talent, the resources and the interest to make the best of their intellectual property. If you say, "I don't think it's going to be good", that is wholly different than, "they can't do this". [mod edit]
Originally posted by Nanfoodle How people cant see what Storybricks could do for MMOing blows my mind. It has more potential to change MMOing then any other system in any other game in development. I really hope SoE pulls this off.
More like how many people are blinded by the overhyped promises SOE are rolling out that they can't possibly keep. They don't have the knowledge nor money to make this all work nearly as well as they're saying it will. Keep getting hyped time and time again for every new game and keep being disappointed.
What Nanfoodle said is pretty true. Regardless if SB actually works as intended, I don't know of anything else being developed that is anywhere near as interesting.
Most upcoming games seem to be either trying to put another coat of paint on the same thing and or going back in time and trying to give CPR to a concept that worked then or could of been better. Very little is attempting to pull the genre forward.
Again, SB could be total fail and be horrible, but until we experience will we actually know. Either can roll the excitement dice and hope it goes well or don't roll and just grumble games bad grumble. Not sure why anyone wouldn't want SB to pan out, be it for EQN or other games that could utilize it in the future, there is no downside to it succeeding.
Also, unless you have insider knowledge, no clue how you can know what SOE is capable of currently.
Originally posted by Nanfoodle How people cant see what Storybricks could do for MMOing blows my mind. It has more potential to change MMOing then any other system in any other game in development. I really hope SoE pulls this off.
More like how many people are blinded by the overhyped promises SOE are rolling out that they can't possibly keep. They don't have the knowledge nor money to make this all work nearly as well as they're saying it will. Keep getting hyped time and time again for every new game and keep being disappointed.
I said could do, not will do. There is no blindly here. Why people want new games to fail is just a sad state of how gamers sees things. When a company is trying to push the boundries of how we game. We should get excited and hope they pull it off for that game and how it could impact all future games we play. Just think how a real living world would be to game in. Where every time we start a new char/alt its not on the same path we already played. Where if you get board of how your game is going, you can just switch servers and by playing with people who made different choices, have a new world for you to explore. Things you may not have seen. As a gamer, I cant get how that does not get everyone excited even if you dont like Everquest.
Most upcoming games seem to be either trying to put another coat of paint on the same thing and or going back in time and trying to give CPR to a concept that worked then or could of been better. Very little is attempting to pull the genre forward.
I just want to point something out to you.. What Storybricks is, is nothing more then original EQ mob action/reaction on steroids.. It is an old concept given CPR, but this time adding in a heart stent and a pacemaker.. lol Most of us call it building faction or reputation, however SB calls it like/dislikes.. It's a numbers game we can play with to get the NPC's to love us, or kill us..
Now as for the other part of SB, it's very much nothing more then roaming mobs being attracted to locations like a magnet.. "moths to a flame".. This I actually like.. I miss roaming mobs, as too many games are nothing more then static encounters.. My true concern is that SOE is reaching for more then they can achieve, and when that happens people often fall flat on their faces.. If hitting a double is all SOE is capable of doing, then stop swinging for the fences, because all you'll end up doing is striking out..
Also, unless you have insider knowledge, no clue how you can know what SOE is capable of currently.
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Why people want new games to fail is just a sad state of how gamers sees things. When a company is trying to push the boundries of how we game. We should get excited and hope they pull it off for that game and how it could impact all future games we play.
I don't think people want "new" games to fail, as much as I think people like myself are tired of being played with.. I'm not into hype and possibilities.. I no longer buy the sizzle, I want the steak.. Game after game after game for the last 10 years have made promises they could not fulfill SOE included.. There is really nothing new SOE is doing, as much as they are just tweaking old and current mechanics with different dressings..
In any case, will they achieve something? None of us know for sure.. I don't even think SOE knows where they are going with all this.. It seems to be game design on the fly with so much of it reliant upon what is happening in Landmark.. I don't need or expect a finished product to beta test in.. but grrr.. if SOE wants endorsement and hype, I need to see a solid BLUEPRINT of what the game looks like, and I have yet to see that..
I need to see a solid BLUEPRINT of what the game looks like, and I have yet to see that..
This is the only opinion I share with you from those two paragraphs. EQN is probably about a year out from beta, still, though, so, whatever.
I say and feel idiomatic hyperbole about stuff, too, and I love baseball. You seem pretty emotionally invested in its release, but at the same time playing it down. Weird.
Still waiting to see it in live gameplay with 1000s of other players running around and interacting with NPCs.
What is the scalabilty of storybricks? - What are the hard limits of the system?
Again the idea that 10,000s of NPCs would all have a deep branching AI system with 1000s of players interacting with them (and NPCs interacting amongs eachother) ... it's a hard pill to swallow.
I am sure that it can be pulled off - but at what cost? How many Storybricks servers/processes are needed to handle X number of NPCs?
Heavy AI comes at heavy CPU cost - that's why I am questions the scalability as well as depth and breadth of actual final implementation of Storybricks in EQN.
Is every single NPC in game going to be running on Storybricks - or only select "key" NPCs?
You've elaborated on pretty much what I'm thinking while watching this video...
All this sounds great in theory.
But the more important question is how will it fare when it comes in contact with thousands upon thousands of players, all trying to "move the story" in their own way.
With MMOs, there's two games...
1) The one the developers want it to be.
2) The one it actually becomesonce players get their hands on it.
Or to put it another way... Fantasy vs. Reality
As history has shown, time and again, people will take the best concepts, and immediately set out to ruin them. A large group of people dedicate themselves to breaking/ruining a game for others in any way they can - either to their own benefit, or just "for the lulz".
I'll wait and see how EQN withstands contact with those people before deciding how interested I am in it.
I'm following EQN with active interest in the theory of what they're doing. I'm not getting excited about any of it in terms of "what it'll be like to play". I
Most upcoming games seem to be either trying to put another coat of paint on the same thing and or going back in time and trying to give CPR to a concept that worked then or could of been better. Very little is attempting to pull the genre forward.
I just want to point something out to you.. What Storybricks is, is nothing more then original EQ mob action/reaction on steroids.. It is an old concept given CPR, but this time adding in a heart stent and a pacemaker.. lol Most of us call it building faction or reputation, however SB calls it like/dislikes.. It's a numbers game we can play with to get the NPC's to love us, or kill us..
Now as for the other part of SB, it's very much nothing more then roaming mobs being attracted to locations like a magnet.. "moths to a flame".. This I actually like.. I miss roaming mobs, as too many games are nothing more then static encounters.. My true concern is that SOE is reaching for more then they can achieve, and when that happens people often fall flat on their faces.. If hitting a double is all SOE is capable of doing, then stop swinging for the fences, because all you'll end up doing is striking out..
Also, unless you have insider knowledge, no clue how you can know what SOE is capable of currently.
You know this from? You have some hands on time working on the project or got some personal face time with the devs? Why is it not anything but what the devs say it is till we get our hands on it? SoE is not some fly by night company, they have made MMOs that have lasted longer then most. They have stood by their fans and their games where other companies shut down older games. EQN has gotten more dev face time then any other MMO I have seen developed in the 16 years I have MMOed. They are very forward with what they are trying to make.
Watching how combat looks like some asian crap, im starting to loose my interest. Was it always like this in everquest games?
Edit: i mean all those flashy things and stupid teleports
No.. Over the years we have seen a drastic increase on eye candy combat then anything.. For me it isn't necessary to have fireworks go off each time someone swings a sword or waves a wand.. In fact, if anything it complicates combat and puts restrictions on it because of graphics lag (fps) But then I don't need to have my female characters running around wearing plate thong armor either.. /shrug!! Sexy toons with flashy combat, I wonder what audience they are targeting? ROFLMAO..
You know this from? You have some hands on time working on the project or got some personal face time with the devs? I know this because it comes right from the horse's mouth.. aka EQN devs and the man that is in charge of Storybricks.. They gave an example that certain mobs like gold, so they will attempt to go into locations that gold if present and acquire it.. (moths to a flame).. Unlike original EQ that had roaming mobs that followed a coded path, EQN is doing similar but instead of using a coded path, they are giving mobs the ability to gravitate towards their desires.. (moths to a flame).. Don't get me wrong, I like that idea and concept, but it does have limitations.. You're welcome
Actually, if he watches from 12min forward about 45 sec, Steve says specifically it's not just a "binary faction bar". I think also, it's inferred the area influence produces more than just "roaming (pathing) mob packs".
same video from original post, this thread.
edit: also, I feel he's working to minimalize most of this effort on the game to prove some vapid point "everything is disappointing" so he's taking us to the mat with intentionally skewed interpretation.
You know this from? You have some hands on time working on the project or got some personal face time with the devs? I know this because it comes right from the horse's mouth.. aka EQN devs and the man that is in charge of Storybricks.. They gave an example that certain mobs like gold, so they will attempt to go into locations that gold if present and acquire it.. (moths to a flame).. Unlike original EQ that had roaming mobs that followed a coded path, EQN is doing similar but instead of using a coded path, they are giving mobs the ability to gravitate towards their desires.. (moths to a flame).. Don't get me wrong, I like that idea and concept, but it does have limitations.. You're welcome
Ooo I get it, you dont get the difference between EQ1 and other games that have scripted actions and how Story Bricks is unknown outcome. If you dont get that from what the devs have shown and told us. I dont think I could do much better. Sad because that the thing that makes SB so special. Thats the one point that makes SB the thing that could change how we game. Thats the thing that will make the game look so different from server to server. Thats the thing that has so many excited to see SB in action. Sorry your not getting it because scripted actions is not what this game is about.
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Forgive me if I am misspeaking on some details as I'm approaching this purely as a theoretical exercise, but the "tiers" you speak of are not a representation of abstract power like in other MMO's - Tier 1, 2, 3 gear for example. But they are actual physical barriers within the game world. Tier 1 being the surface, Tier 2 being the top level of caves, Tier 3 being where water reserves reside, Tier 4 being where molten lava settles, etc. So in theory, there is nothing particularly more powerful or threatening about the subsequent tiers after the surface. It's just another ecosystem of Storybricks.
Now, it might come into play that the deeper you go, the more powerful things might be. This could be for several reasons. Perhaps that by the time you reach that tier, the NPC Groups have already amassed a great deal of might as they went for a relatively long time on autopilot, without players altering their procedural paths. Like the Kobalt scenario - they were able to take the entire western quarter of the map. This was to represent that they had a respectably powerful empire that had to conquer other NPC groups, who were also, simultaneously, trying to grow in power. However, when they implemented player interaction, they were reduced quite effectively.
Another option could just be that the devs place specific starting points of power for certain NPC groups, and also set a specific threshold. I sort of hope they wouldn't do that, as it would completely defeat the point, but it's possible that they might for specific NPC groups. Kobalts for instance aren't particularly a highly organized kind. They might align themselves with Orcs, however, who might possibly be. Though, I don't know much about how storybricks works or if that sort of thing might even occur.
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At any rate, the main point I wanted to bring up was that assuming the top 90% move to the lower (or higher depending on how you look at it) Tiers of the world. Like, say they start to overpopulate what could be considered the deepest realm. My thinking is that will inevitably create an offset on the surface in that the NPC groups in the traditional "starting areas" will be effectively granted free reign over their realm. And so... it's just business as usual. The frames of power will continue to grow in the wake of how the players shaped the realm. In other words, as the majority leaves the surface, their footprint will create new scenarios for storybricks to spawn new stories. And since there is such a low population of player alteration - whatever originally happened in the higher Tiers, will just happen all over again in what used to be the starting area.
And so now, the population who was at one time top tier, have a new threat to deal with from a completely organic sense. You either migrate back toward the surface, or it could just be that when you visit there... those Kobalts have establish a global seat of power, have successfully resurrected Zuul, who will in turn with the help of the Key Master, Vince Clortho, unlock a portal which would allow Gozer the Traveler to reestablish his/her reign over this dimension by way of the selected Destroyer.... a giant Stay Puft Marshmellow Man.
In other words... wherever the players aren't... there the AI will take over. It's our job as players to keep that sum-bitch in check, lest he put us all in the Matrix.
Not sure if I'm following you right.. However, that said, from what I gather tiers in EQN or not just geographical, but are unlockable areas of progression.. Chasing the tier 5 carrot will be a goal for most, and something I'm sure will show up in the cash shop..
Now you mention something about mobs on the surface migrating to all parts of the world if not kept in check.. I don't think that will happen.. I'm quite confident that SOE will be putting up invisible code walls to keep the dark elves from taking over the human city.. Just like the ocean, there will be ebbs and flows, but unless there is some special event, no one is going to be flooded.. lol
Storybricks doesn't run on your computer, it's global to the game and runs on a dedicated (or many) server and all you see on your computer is just the end results...like in any other games. It's no different than monster AI in other game where the information of what they are doing needs to be shared to all players in the area.
Voxel is something else, there is a lot more data being exchanged then in other online games, but at the same time it only happen if things changes and you can see it.
What you say could be true as we really don't know all the details yet, but they've said that there is no "end game" and that players won't "beat" or completely outpace content. Just because someone has a Tier 5 Warrior, doesn't mean they can't still play in the other Tiers. This is possible in many ways. If they stick with more MOBA like gear, that is mostly side upgrade stuff, Tier 5 shouldn't be BIS or totally vertical power stacking. Obviously we need more to go by without making large assumptions, but they are calling it a "sandbox" and "virtual world" which don't fit well into the typical themepark carrot on the stick track.
But Storybricks does run on the ONE singular server in which you are playing on.. There are only two sides in which data is exchanged.. client or host.. The tricky part, which almost all companies face and have yet to defeat is the problem with data management.. Host side (SOE) can only store so much data, no different then our home computers hard drives.. The more variables you put into a game, the more data that must be recorded and managed, and when that happens often host side becomes full and unable to run properly.. We have yet to see or hear details on how thousands of NPC are going to TRULY react with each other and thousands of players as well, let alone the mobs in the world as well..
True about voxels and that is another hurdle that has yet to prove itself.. We all know the more eye candy graphics you use, the more data that is exchanged, hence the restrictions in many game events because most people can not handle all the details with 40 people fighting in one area.. I don't know a game to date that doesn't suffer from this.. Now on top of all that flash and bang combat effects, we add in voxels.. Most people will have to limit their settings to even run the game in large populations such as raids.. I remember when PvP patch first came out in Landmark and one of the youtube posters had to switch his settings because the lag was too much for him to effectively fight with..
But we do know that tier 5 gear is better then tier 1 gear.. That was said by SOE themselves.. It is the carrot to chase, as they even gave an example.. The one dev said his character was going to be like a "Mage Hunter", in which he can use multiple actions back to back to stun and defeat a mobile mage.. He further went on to explain that at tier 1 his energy pool was not large enough to do all the needed actions back to back.. (makes sense), but as he is able to upgrade into higher tier gear, he can pick up "energy" bonus stats, which will allow him to do all that he wants.. so basically.. HIGHER TIER > VERTICAL progression, just dressed differently.. HELLO Cash Shop !!!!
Most games out today, have carrots.. EQN will have carrots too, we just need to identify them and how to get them.. LOL That sadly is part of human gaming psych 101.. Chapter 1 = Chasing the Carrot
I love the video.... but one great system does not make a great game... This looks prommising.... but there are some worries, just naming 3 here
1) How about making combat really really fun (no fun combat means no fun game)
2) Meaningfull NPC interactions and converstions, people are so used to this, that they would really miss it if it wasnt there
3) Personal goals for the Players... in the end this system will boil down to fighting other NPCs battles time after time... what can players gain from it? .. will they have long time goals on top of these short time ones..
These are events on a major scale, but will there also be events on a smaller scale, like the ones we know from GW2, and will there be oldfashioned epic Questing available...
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
This is precisely one of the problems being sorted out by the Sony design studios. One question I have is mathematically, how does the scaling AI stress cpu's? Another question would be why are we considering that there will be "storybrick" servers versus "nonstorybrick" servers?
I am intrigued that "old" areas may not be ignored in a newer thought out scenario. I would wager a guess that options and choices will be throughout the game experience which may lead many back to older areas which have changed in substantial ways, possibly. If you remember, events will take place at various times which bring the server together to accomplish some enormous or epic task. What would keep the GM's from choosing areas in "older" areas. In fact, why even refer to a once explored/conquered zone an old zone if immersive change possibly exists? Yes there may be some grinding. How many mmo's have no grinding at all? I can see an ebb and flow as demonstrated on the video. At times the players will seemingly push back kobolds or orcs, however with a scaling and immersive AI, is it not possible for kobolds, orcs, or whatever groups of "Baddies" to make attempts at regaining control of an area, just as the gamers would try? I LOVE alts and the wonderful aspect of what this game may offer is a new experience for each alt due to the nature of changing server environments!
Sovrath and I agree for the most part in asking why should there even be "starting zones at all? It seems to me that this type of world churns with change each and every week. The players can decide where to take the lore and how to shape their world! Generally, this is a task that is somewhat daunting, I should think. It is taking time. I would rather see this studio do what they need to do to insure that what they have "on paper" is a process that can be accomplished. I also am hoping that what fails to work can be dealt with logically by using what has worked before. The Sony studios should strive to be transparent, and yes I know there is some doubt here, but in general I am not feeling they are attempting some great conspiracy to take our money and run.
The issue is as it seems, that it is taking so long to develop. Or, at least we think it is. How long does it normally take a huge project like this to be completed, three, five, seven, or more years? Even I have questioned whether EQ: N actually exists. I still feel they should have some playable "demo" by August 2015, to show what has been actually completed. If not, well, I fear that they will begin to feel the wrath of gamers tired of hearing about what might be... For me, well I have to decide if patience is the virtue here for this mmo. For now...I can hold out another year and a half, if needed. After that, I probably will loose some enthusiasm. I won't "hate" on Sony though, I'll just become preoccupied with something else...
We shall see.
Alyn
All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth
John Lennon
This.
More like how many people are blinded by the overhyped promises SOE are rolling out that they can't possibly keep. They don't have the knowledge nor money to make this all work nearly as well as they're saying it will. Keep getting hyped time and time again for every new game and keep being disappointed.
This is baseless and not even opinion. SOE certainly has the talent, the resources and the interest to make the best of their intellectual property. If you say, "I don't think it's going to be good", that is wholly different than, "they can't do this". [mod edit]
What Nanfoodle said is pretty true. Regardless if SB actually works as intended, I don't know of anything else being developed that is anywhere near as interesting.
Most upcoming games seem to be either trying to put another coat of paint on the same thing and or going back in time and trying to give CPR to a concept that worked then or could of been better. Very little is attempting to pull the genre forward.
Again, SB could be total fail and be horrible, but until we experience will we actually know. Either can roll the excitement dice and hope it goes well or don't roll and just grumble games bad grumble. Not sure why anyone wouldn't want SB to pan out, be it for EQN or other games that could utilize it in the future, there is no downside to it succeeding.
Also, unless you have insider knowledge, no clue how you can know what SOE is capable of currently.
I said could do, not will do. There is no blindly here. Why people want new games to fail is just a sad state of how gamers sees things. When a company is trying to push the boundries of how we game. We should get excited and hope they pull it off for that game and how it could impact all future games we play. Just think how a real living world would be to game in. Where every time we start a new char/alt its not on the same path we already played. Where if you get board of how your game is going, you can just switch servers and by playing with people who made different choices, have a new world for you to explore. Things you may not have seen. As a gamer, I cant get how that does not get everyone excited even if you dont like Everquest.
This is the only opinion I share with you from those two paragraphs. EQN is probably about a year out from beta, still, though, so, whatever.
I say and feel idiomatic hyperbole about stuff, too, and I love baseball. You seem pretty emotionally invested in its release, but at the same time playing it down. Weird.
No. Plenty of videos on youtube of EQ and EQ2, or you can play either for free, save yourself more questions...
Hey, I thought my answer was better than, "Is your Google broken today?".
edit: Actually, I'm watching like a hawk for someone to work me over about "Idiomatic hyperbole"...
further edit: Also, what's not to like? You used words like "crap" and "stupid", generally those elicit profoundly positive responses.
You've elaborated on pretty much what I'm thinking while watching this video...
All this sounds great in theory.
But the more important question is how will it fare when it comes in contact with thousands upon thousands of players, all trying to "move the story" in their own way.
With MMOs, there's two games...
1) The one the developers want it to be.
2) The one it actually becomes once players get their hands on it.
Or to put it another way... Fantasy vs. Reality
As history has shown, time and again, people will take the best concepts, and immediately set out to ruin them. A large group of people dedicate themselves to breaking/ruining a game for others in any way they can - either to their own benefit, or just "for the lulz".
I'll wait and see how EQN withstands contact with those people before deciding how interested I am in it.
I'm following EQN with active interest in the theory of what they're doing. I'm not getting excited about any of it in terms of "what it'll be like to play". I
You know this from? You have some hands on time working on the project or got some personal face time with the devs? Why is it not anything but what the devs say it is till we get our hands on it? SoE is not some fly by night company, they have made MMOs that have lasted longer then most. They have stood by their fans and their games where other companies shut down older games. EQN has gotten more dev face time then any other MMO I have seen developed in the 16 years I have MMOed. They are very forward with what they are trying to make.
No.. Over the years we have seen a drastic increase on eye candy combat then anything.. For me it isn't necessary to have fireworks go off each time someone swings a sword or waves a wand.. In fact, if anything it complicates combat and puts restrictions on it because of graphics lag (fps) But then I don't need to have my female characters running around wearing plate thong armor either.. /shrug!! Sexy toons with flashy combat, I wonder what audience they are targeting? ROFLMAO..
Actually, if he watches from 12min forward about 45 sec, Steve says specifically it's not just a "binary faction bar". I think also, it's inferred the area influence produces more than just "roaming (pathing) mob packs".
same video from original post, this thread.
edit: also, I feel he's working to minimalize most of this effort on the game to prove some vapid point "everything is disappointing" so he's taking us to the mat with intentionally skewed interpretation.
Ooo I get it, you dont get the difference between EQ1 and other games that have scripted actions and how Story Bricks is unknown outcome. If you dont get that from what the devs have shown and told us. I dont think I could do much better. Sad because that the thing that makes SB so special. Thats the one point that makes SB the thing that could change how we game. Thats the thing that will make the game look so different from server to server. Thats the thing that has so many excited to see SB in action. Sorry your not getting it because scripted actions is not what this game is about.