Originally posted by Arazale So funny, the people who believe so fiercely in SOE's Story Bricks are no different than Knotwood's believing in ESO's 12 million subscribers bs lol.
Ya cuse Knotwood and SoE share the same level of reputation with gamers.
Still waiting to see it in live gameplay with 1000s of other players running around and interacting with NPCs.
What is the scalabilty of storybricks? - What are the hard limits of the system?
Again the idea that 10,000s of NPCs would all have a deep branching AI system with 1000s of players interacting with them (and NPCs interacting amongs eachother) ... it's a hard pill to swallow.
I am sure that it can be pulled off - but at what cost? How many Storybricks servers/processes are needed to handle X number of NPCs?
Heavy AI comes at heavy CPU cost - that's why I am questions the scalability as well as depth and breadth of actual final implementation of Storybricks in EQN.
Is every single NPC in game going to be running on Storybricks - or only select "key" NPCs?
I agree.. and as a devils advocate, what happens to OLD sections of the world that no one plays in anymore.. Will storybricks turn those parts of the world into unplayable, or unreasonable? We all know that there are tiers in the world, and history shows us that eventually communities become top heavy as players mature..
Lets use their demo example to explain a potential problem.. Remember the part where the Kobalds own most of the land and only one section was under influence by the dark elves.. What if, to unlock the Shadow Knight class you have to push back the mobs.. That is great and quick early on in the game when 20 players are all trying to do the same thing, but what happens months later or even years, when most everyone is tier 5 and already unlocked that class.. Will newcombers be forced to GRIND extra time to unlock that same content because players "moved on" from that location? I haven't heard anything yet about how old content doesn't become obsolete over time, or trivial..
Without the need for alts, how do you keep newbie areas populated? I question the effect storybricks will have on low tier (aka abandoned) areas of the map.. I hope SOE knows what "Murphy's Law" is..
This actually sounds like a dream come true from an RPG standpoint. My friend needs help on his path to becoming a shadow knight? That sounds like an adventure. My favorite class is difficult to obtain? That makes me feel like a special snowflake. Armies stand between me and my ambitions? Let the heads roll. I really feel like this is the point of storybricks, creating your own adventure.
It all sounds leagues ahead of the meaningless level and gear grinds that have become the staple of this genre. Speaking of staples of the genre, I've been burned too many times to actually believe the hype without experiencing it personally so we'll see how it turns out.
Still waiting to see it in live gameplay with 1000s of other players running around and interacting with NPCs.
What is the scalabilty of storybricks? - What are the hard limits of the system?
Again the idea that 10,000s of NPCs would all have a deep branching AI system with 1000s of players interacting with them (and NPCs interacting amongs eachother) ... it's a hard pill to swallow.
I am sure that it can be pulled off - but at what cost? How many Storybricks servers/processes are needed to handle X number of NPCs?
Heavy AI comes at heavy CPU cost - that's why I am questions the scalability as well as depth and breadth of actual final implementation of Storybricks in EQN.
Is every single NPC in game going to be running on Storybricks - or only select "key" NPCs?
This is a very valid question.
Every NPC will but some with more options then others. But even the smallest goblin in the back of a very deep hole will have the drives of his race, class and maybe god at minimum and also how your chars actions may impact that NPC so it knows how to act around you.
I think you missed the point Kano was making, and it is a valid one.. Every action and reaction that happens in the gaming world sucks up resources upon the CPU.. Just like our own home computers, the more task you perform, the harder the CPU has to work, hotter things get, etc etc.. It's not a software issue, as it becomes a hardware issue.. Every piece of hardware has limitations.. I'm sure SOE has a clue, or atleast I hope they do, just how much stress can a server CPU take before it crashes or lags out.. 1k Players? 5K Players? now toss in the NPC's that are interacting with each other.. etc etc..
Don't forget too that all data being shared, even between the NPC's has to be recorded and stored.. Again another issue with game servers on top of CPU cost.. The biggest part of server maintenance is clearing the trash.. Storybricks is only going to multiply that, by how much is not sure.. Daily maintenance?
Still waiting to see it in live gameplay with 1000s of other players running around and interacting with NPCs.
What is the scalabilty of storybricks? - What are the hard limits of the system?
Again the idea that 10,000s of NPCs would all have a deep branching AI system with 1000s of players interacting with them (and NPCs interacting amongs eachother) ... it's a hard pill to swallow.
I am sure that it can be pulled off - but at what cost? How many Storybricks servers/processes are needed to handle X number of NPCs?
Heavy AI comes at heavy CPU cost - that's why I am questions the scalability as well as depth and breadth of actual final implementation of Storybricks in EQN.
Is every single NPC in game going to be running on Storybricks - or only select "key" NPCs?
This is a very valid question.
Every NPC will but some with more options then others. But even the smallest goblin in the back of a very deep hole will have the drives of his race, class and maybe god at minimum and also how your chars actions may impact that NPC so it knows how to act around you.
I think you missed the point Kano was making, and it is a valid one.. Every action and reaction that happens in the gaming world sucks up resources upon the CPU.. Just like our own home computers, the more task you perform, the harder the CPU has to work, hotter things get, etc etc.. It's not a software issue, as it becomes a hardware issue.. Every piece of hardware has limitations.. I'm sure SOE has a clue, or atleast I hope they do, just how much stress can a server CPU take before it crashes or lags out.. 1k Players? 5K Players? now toss in the NPC's that are interacting with each other.. etc etc..
Don't forget too that all data being shared, even between the NPC's has to be recorded and stored.. Again another issue with game servers on top of CPU cost.. The biggest part of server maintenance is clearing the trash.. Storybricks is only going to multiply that, by how much is not sure.. Daily maintenance?
I admit I did not read the whole post, I saw the question and answered it, my bad. Sure it could have problems but one fact is missed in this. Storybricks is not just a new system in EQN, its a game itself. People have been playing Storybricks for years, with shard servers like Minecraft. People playing each others worlds. This is not some untested tech. Its also in Landmarks blueprint. It will be coming soon. How soon? No timeline on the blueprint.
While I totally understand the skepticism, what if it actually worked?
What if, SOE actually produced what they are saying is possible? They figure out the technical limitations and the design/gameplay issues that could happen with the AI and players interacting in countless number of ways? What if Storybricks isn't just 1999 AI & factions repackaged and is something we've never experienced?
Would anyone not want a more "dynamic" experience? Sure it all boils down to code and the limitations set by the devs, but if it is 1, 10, 1000 steps ahead of previous games, would that be terrible?
GW2 sounded good for what it was and they delivered for the most part. Obviously people expected/wanted more, but it was all they could manage due to whatever limitations. Same as every game before it. Do people expect companies to go "Well it isn't that exciting and you'll probably get bored in a month, but please give us your money anyway?" Maybe they think it is amazing and that we are all expecting too much. I don't know.
AI can only go so far in gaming currently. No doubt that we won't see human level interactions or some realistic world where we can't tell NPC from player. Maybe some believe this is going to happen, but I hope not.
I'm excited for EQN because it has potential to at least be as good or better then what has already been out. Toss in some new tech, fresh take on the genre, and added bonus, EQ franchise.
Huge chance it could suck or not live up to expectations. Just like every other game ever.
I have to ask what is the harm in hoping it doesn't? What's wrong in wanting more?
We are all pretty much in the dark at this point and none of us know what will really happen despite all our armchair developer skills.
Again I get the doubt, but these are video games meant for fun. If you look at something and all you can see is negative, I think the point has been lost.
It's like going out to eat at some popular new restaurant that everyone is drooling over and every bite you take is worse then the last. At what point do you go, maybe this isn't for me?
Originally posted by Arazale So funny, the people who believe so fiercely in SOE's Story Bricks are no different than Knotwood's believing in ESO's 12 million subscribers bs lol.
Ya cuse Knotwood and SoE share the same level of reputation with gamers.
You are so defensive to the point of retardation. You are to Knotwood as EQN is to ESO.
Originally posted by Arazale So funny, the people who believe so fiercely in SOE's Story Bricks are no different than Knotwood's believing in ESO's 12 million subscribers bs lol.
Ya cuse Knotwood and SoE share the same level of reputation with gamers.
You are so defensive to the point of retardation. You are to Knotwood as EQN is to ESO.
Thats why I am always saying things like we hope, could be and if SoE pulls it off. I have never claimed SoE will pull this off. I have only said this is what they are trying to do. If it upsets you when I point out people are miss quoting devs or making stuff up. Then I suggest you dont read my posts.
Still waiting to see it in live gameplay with 1000s of other players running around and interacting with NPCs.
What is the scalabilty of storybricks? - What are the hard limits of the system?
Again the idea that 10,000s of NPCs would all have a deep branching AI system with 1000s of players interacting with them (and NPCs interacting amongs eachother) ... it's a hard pill to swallow.
I am sure that it can be pulled off - but at what cost? How many Storybricks servers/processes are needed to handle X number of NPCs?
Heavy AI comes at heavy CPU cost - that's why I am questions the scalability as well as depth and breadth of actual final implementation of Storybricks in EQN.
Is every single NPC in game going to be running on Storybricks - or only select "key" NPCs?
This is a very valid question.
Every NPC will but some with more options then others. But even the smallest goblin in the back of a very deep hole will have the drives of his race, class and maybe god at minimum and also how your chars actions may impact that NPC so it knows how to act around you.
I think you missed the point Kano was making, and it is a valid one.. Every action and reaction that happens in the gaming world sucks up resources upon the CPU.. Just like our own home computers, the more task you perform, the harder the CPU has to work, hotter things get, etc etc.. It's not a software issue, as it becomes a hardware issue.. Every piece of hardware has limitations.. I'm sure SOE has a clue, or atleast I hope they do, just how much stress can a server CPU take before it crashes or lags out.. 1k Players? 5K Players? now toss in the NPC's that are interacting with each other.. etc etc..
Don't forget too that all data being shared, even between the NPC's has to be recorded and stored.. Again another issue with game servers on top of CPU cost.. The biggest part of server maintenance is clearing the trash.. Storybricks is only going to multiply that, by how much is not sure.. Daily maintenance?
I think the issue is solved if you have constant calls to and from a database. How different is this to package than any other ai lua script, for example "social" mob interaction or "hate list"? I think you're making a bigger issue of the actual requirements. It's extra steps, sure, but those extra steps aren't called for every mob all the time, only when there's a trigger, (those un-witnessed mobs don't even need to be rendered, only represented as values and coordinates) and even if there are millions of triggered calls to a database, which there are on any WoW server, for example, I don't see a real problem, until there are a massive number of players in one space. What's it take to crash a WoW server? People used to do it on social media... 1500? 2000?
edit: I just thought about it and the number probably isn't millions, but for every aggro, every loot drop, every harvest, every tradeskill result, etc, I think it would be the same.
Adju, I think you are underestimating the volume of calls that will come to play.. That is what Kano was addressing.. It's one thing to to have thousands of players create calls when interacting with NPC, but now we are multiplying that by having many more thousands of NPC interact with each other.. I'm quite sure there will be atleast 10x more NPC then players in the game, meaning you'll end up with 10x more calls placed on the database and CPU.. Can SOE's hardware actually handle that load?
Toss in the voxel world that generates more calls then anything else, we are talking about an astounding volume of calls never seen before in a MMO. Atleast none that I ever heard.. Or has Kano suggested, will SOE have to nerf Storybricks so that SB only applies to key NPC's and not all NPC and mobs to keep the call volume down to a manageable level? This has yet to be talked about or seen..
Imagine you and your friend are at home having a party, and currently the normal chat (calls) has always been based on what you and your friend generate with company.. But now things are changing, the guest are talking amongst themselves as well.. How loud do you think that party gets?
Adju, I think you are underestimating the volume of calls that will come to play.. That is what Kano was addressing.. It's one thing to to have thousands of players create calls when interacting with NPC, but now we are multiplying that by having many more thousands of NPC interact with each other.. I'm quite sure there will be atleast 10x more NPC then players in the game, meaning you'll end up with 10x more calls placed on the database and CPU.. Can SOE's hardware actually handle that load?
Toss in the voxel world that generates more calls then anything else, we are talking about an astounding volume of calls never seen before in a MMO. Atleast none that I ever heard.. Or has Kano suggested, will SOE have to nerf Storybricks so that SB only applies to key NPC's and not all NPC and mobs to keep the call volume down to a manageable level? This has yet to be talked about or seen..
Imagine you and your friend are at home having a party, and currently the normal chat (calls) has always been based on what you and your friend generate with company.. But now things are changing, the guest are talking amongst themselves as well.. How loud do you think that party gets?
Same conversation in 2 threads so in that spirit...
The thing everyone keeps forgetting is Storybricks is not just some system in EQN, SoE has taken it from an already working game called Storybricks (Thats also in testing). Its much like Minecraft where people are playing each others content and its been going on for years. This is already a game and it works.
Nan.. do you even understand what we are talking about here? Do you know what a "call" is? We are not talking about some software program of yes/no's.. We are talking about hardware capabilities that have NOT BEEN TESTED to date by SOE or anyone else in this genre.. That link you posted says nothing or confirms anything of what was addressed.. TY
What I mean by this is the "and or nor" from programming in basic back in the day.
You tell an npc "these objects make you do x" then you tell npc "this faction makes you do x" then you add the items and factions including players that are also aligned with factions. After a while you have players battling on either side to gain more power or benefits due to class styles they prefer.
Obviously this a a very rudimentary blueprint and in no way reflects the amount of code needed, but I feel once the basics are in there, the game will indeed run by itself.
As far as levels and content.
What I understood from watching dev videos.....
You can progress in a character's level by getting a full set of that level. Once you have a full set you unlock the next set to go for and also unlock more skills. This continues for 4 or so levels vertical. Then there is the collection of all different classes which is horizontal. Then there is the mixing of gear with cross class and weapons. The future looks bright with this game.
There must be advantages long term in holding areas of the game. Perhaps character sheet bonuses for all people aligned with that specific faction. Also we will most likely be building and protecting our homes and other things from game altering events which will require groups, raids, and whole server support at certain times for rallying calls.
Nan.. do you even understand what we are talking about here? Do you know what a "call" is? We are not talking about some software program of yes/no's.. We are talking about hardware capabilities that have NOT BEEN TESTED to date by SOE or anyone else in this genre.. That link you posted says nothing or confirms anything of what was addressed.. TY
[mod edit] Maybe they have a checksum that breaks down most interactions to a single call. My link to the video was to show this is a game, not that they are testing it on a server. Storybricks has been working on their game long before SoE has been working on this latest iteration of EQN. Also if they have it working on their beta servers, this means when they move to better hardware how can that be a bad thing? [mod edit]
If you are so convinced this game is hyped up trash and they cant pull off what they are saying, then I invite you now, move on. Find a game you like and go talk nice things about it. I promise not to follow and trash every comment you make about the game you like. Game trashing, especially for games that have not come out, is the saddest things gamers can do. We should be cheering on every game that comes out and hope it builds on what came before it to help make all games that come out after it better. Gamers should be a community that helps foster progression. Not hate for games.
Comments
Ya cuse Knotwood and SoE share the same level of reputation with gamers.
This actually sounds like a dream come true from an RPG standpoint. My friend needs help on his path to becoming a shadow knight? That sounds like an adventure. My favorite class is difficult to obtain? That makes me feel like a special snowflake. Armies stand between me and my ambitions? Let the heads roll. I really feel like this is the point of storybricks, creating your own adventure.
It all sounds leagues ahead of the meaningless level and gear grinds that have become the staple of this genre. Speaking of staples of the genre, I've been burned too many times to actually believe the hype without experiencing it personally so we'll see how it turns out.
I think you missed the point Kano was making, and it is a valid one.. Every action and reaction that happens in the gaming world sucks up resources upon the CPU.. Just like our own home computers, the more task you perform, the harder the CPU has to work, hotter things get, etc etc.. It's not a software issue, as it becomes a hardware issue.. Every piece of hardware has limitations.. I'm sure SOE has a clue, or atleast I hope they do, just how much stress can a server CPU take before it crashes or lags out.. 1k Players? 5K Players? now toss in the NPC's that are interacting with each other.. etc etc..
Don't forget too that all data being shared, even between the NPC's has to be recorded and stored.. Again another issue with game servers on top of CPU cost.. The biggest part of server maintenance is clearing the trash.. Storybricks is only going to multiply that, by how much is not sure.. Daily maintenance?
I admit I did not read the whole post, I saw the question and answered it, my bad. Sure it could have problems but one fact is missed in this. Storybricks is not just a new system in EQN, its a game itself. People have been playing Storybricks for years, with shard servers like Minecraft. People playing each others worlds. This is not some untested tech. Its also in Landmarks blueprint. It will be coming soon. How soon? No timeline on the blueprint.
While I totally understand the skepticism, what if it actually worked?
What if, SOE actually produced what they are saying is possible? They figure out the technical limitations and the design/gameplay issues that could happen with the AI and players interacting in countless number of ways? What if Storybricks isn't just 1999 AI & factions repackaged and is something we've never experienced?
Would anyone not want a more "dynamic" experience? Sure it all boils down to code and the limitations set by the devs, but if it is 1, 10, 1000 steps ahead of previous games, would that be terrible?
GW2 sounded good for what it was and they delivered for the most part. Obviously people expected/wanted more, but it was all they could manage due to whatever limitations. Same as every game before it. Do people expect companies to go "Well it isn't that exciting and you'll probably get bored in a month, but please give us your money anyway?" Maybe they think it is amazing and that we are all expecting too much. I don't know.
AI can only go so far in gaming currently. No doubt that we won't see human level interactions or some realistic world where we can't tell NPC from player. Maybe some believe this is going to happen, but I hope not.
I'm excited for EQN because it has potential to at least be as good or better then what has already been out. Toss in some new tech, fresh take on the genre, and added bonus, EQ franchise.
Huge chance it could suck or not live up to expectations. Just like every other game ever.
I have to ask what is the harm in hoping it doesn't? What's wrong in wanting more?
We are all pretty much in the dark at this point and none of us know what will really happen despite all our armchair developer skills.
Again I get the doubt, but these are video games meant for fun. If you look at something and all you can see is negative, I think the point has been lost.
It's like going out to eat at some popular new restaurant that everyone is drooling over and every bite you take is worse then the last. At what point do you go, maybe this isn't for me?
You are so defensive to the point of retardation. You are to Knotwood as EQN is to ESO.
Thats why I am always saying things like we hope, could be and if SoE pulls it off. I have never claimed SoE will pull this off. I have only said this is what they are trying to do. If it upsets you when I point out people are miss quoting devs or making stuff up. Then I suggest you dont read my posts.
I think the issue is solved if you have constant calls to and from a database. How different is this to package than any other ai lua script, for example "social" mob interaction or "hate list"? I think you're making a bigger issue of the actual requirements. It's extra steps, sure, but those extra steps aren't called for every mob all the time, only when there's a trigger, (those un-witnessed mobs don't even need to be rendered, only represented as values and coordinates) and even if there are millions of triggered calls to a database, which there are on any WoW server, for example, I don't see a real problem, until there are a massive number of players in one space. What's it take to crash a WoW server? People used to do it on social media... 1500? 2000?
edit: I just thought about it and the number probably isn't millions, but for every aggro, every loot drop, every harvest, every tradeskill result, etc, I think it would be the same.
Adju, I think you are underestimating the volume of calls that will come to play.. That is what Kano was addressing.. It's one thing to to have thousands of players create calls when interacting with NPC, but now we are multiplying that by having many more thousands of NPC interact with each other.. I'm quite sure there will be atleast 10x more NPC then players in the game, meaning you'll end up with 10x more calls placed on the database and CPU.. Can SOE's hardware actually handle that load?
Toss in the voxel world that generates more calls then anything else, we are talking about an astounding volume of calls never seen before in a MMO. Atleast none that I ever heard.. Or has Kano suggested, will SOE have to nerf Storybricks so that SB only applies to key NPC's and not all NPC and mobs to keep the call volume down to a manageable level? This has yet to be talked about or seen..
Imagine you and your friend are at home having a party, and currently the normal chat (calls) has always been based on what you and your friend generate with company.. But now things are changing, the guest are talking amongst themselves as well.. How loud do you think that party gets?
Same conversation in 2 threads so in that spirit...
The thing everyone keeps forgetting is Storybricks is not just some system in EQN, SoE has taken it from an already working game called Storybricks (Thats also in testing). Its much like Minecraft where people are playing each others content and its been going on for years. This is already a game and it works.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tYBHo8F4gQ
Nan.. do you even understand what we are talking about here? Do you know what a "call" is? We are not talking about some software program of yes/no's.. We are talking about hardware capabilities that have NOT BEEN TESTED to date by SOE or anyone else in this genre.. That link you posted says nothing or confirms anything of what was addressed.. TY
The way it was demonstrated makes alot of sense.
Seems complex yet simple.
What I mean by this is the "and or nor" from programming in basic back in the day.
You tell an npc "these objects make you do x" then you tell npc "this faction makes you do x" then you add the items and factions including players that are also aligned with factions. After a while you have players battling on either side to gain more power or benefits due to class styles they prefer.
Obviously this a a very rudimentary blueprint and in no way reflects the amount of code needed, but I feel once the basics are in there, the game will indeed run by itself.
As far as levels and content.
What I understood from watching dev videos.....
You can progress in a character's level by getting a full set of that level. Once you have a full set you unlock the next set to go for and also unlock more skills. This continues for 4 or so levels vertical. Then there is the collection of all different classes which is horizontal. Then there is the mixing of gear with cross class and weapons. The future looks bright with this game.
There must be advantages long term in holding areas of the game. Perhaps character sheet bonuses for all people aligned with that specific faction. Also we will most likely be building and protecting our homes and other things from game altering events which will require groups, raids, and whole server support at certain times for rallying calls.
[mod edit] Maybe they have a checksum that breaks down most interactions to a single call. My link to the video was to show this is a game, not that they are testing it on a server. Storybricks has been working on their game long before SoE has been working on this latest iteration of EQN. Also if they have it working on their beta servers, this means when they move to better hardware how can that be a bad thing? [mod edit]
If you are so convinced this game is hyped up trash and they cant pull off what they are saying, then I invite you now, move on. Find a game you like and go talk nice things about it. I promise not to follow and trash every comment you make about the game you like. Game trashing, especially for games that have not come out, is the saddest things gamers can do. We should be cheering on every game that comes out and hope it builds on what came before it to help make all games that come out after it better. Gamers should be a community that helps foster progression. Not hate for games.