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"mob tagging rules inherently reward and encourage social gameplay"- blizz dev
observer
Member RarePosts: 3,685
There's no question that when spawning or quest objectives are not handled properly on our side, the tap system can create negative and anti-social experiences, wherein seeing players of your own faction nearby becomes a nuisance. We very much want to limit and rectify those situations. The most helpful thing you can do in that regard during beta is to bring to our attention specific quests or areas in which you felt competition for spawns was overly detrimental to your experience. We have a number of ways of fixing those problems, ranging from simply adding additional spawns, to dynamic spawn thresholds that ramp up density as player density increases, to making specific targets open tap.
The main reason we don't embrace a fully open-tap world is that we feel that those mechanics are asocial. To be fair, that is certainly better than antisocial - no question there, and antisocial experiences usually reflect spawning and mechanics that we need to adjust. However, while a world in which everyone runs around damaging things a few times (or however much is needed to qualify for credit) may be one in which you don't feel bad about other players being around, at some point it also makes those players nearly indistinguishable from NPCs or bots with decent AI. You don't need to talk, or ask if someone has room in their group or would like to join yours. You just attack a few times, and then move on.
On the other hand, mob tagging rules inherently reward and encourage social gameplay. Even in solo areas like daily quest hubs in Mists, we'd commonly see transient pickup groups form for the sake of efficiency, and stick together through that hub or maybe even another ("hey, anyone up for Klaxxi after this?"). But once again, it's incumbent upon us to make sure that we avoid situations where that is outweighed by negatives like competing for underspawned quest targets or objects.
Philosophically, for a while now, we've made sure that any time multiple players are sent to kill a single specific target that has a respawn timer (be it named quest boss, world boss, or an event like the Battlefield: Barrens commanders in patch 5.3), the mob is open to credit for all. We're certainly open to extending that treatment where it makes sense, and where it serves to improve the overall experience. But I wouldn't expect a wholesale overhaul of our tap mechanics in the near future.
The main reason we don't embrace a fully open-tap world is that we feel that those mechanics are asocial. To be fair, that is certainly better than antisocial - no question there, and antisocial experiences usually reflect spawning and mechanics that we need to adjust. However, while a world in which everyone runs around damaging things a few times (or however much is needed to qualify for credit) may be one in which you don't feel bad about other players being around, at some point it also makes those players nearly indistinguishable from NPCs or bots with decent AI. You don't need to talk, or ask if someone has room in their group or would like to join yours. You just attack a few times, and then move on.
On the other hand, mob tagging rules inherently reward and encourage social gameplay. Even in solo areas like daily quest hubs in Mists, we'd commonly see transient pickup groups form for the sake of efficiency, and stick together through that hub or maybe even another ("hey, anyone up for Klaxxi after this?"). But once again, it's incumbent upon us to make sure that we avoid situations where that is outweighed by negatives like competing for underspawned quest targets or objects.
Philosophically, for a while now, we've made sure that any time multiple players are sent to kill a single specific target that has a respawn timer (be it named quest boss, world boss, or an event like the Battlefield: Barrens commanders in patch 5.3), the mob is open to credit for all. We're certainly open to extending that treatment where it makes sense, and where it serves to improve the overall experience. But I wouldn't expect a wholesale overhaul of our tap mechanics in the near future.
Anyone else feel that Blizzard is out of touch? How could they possibly think that shared mob-tagging is asocial? If anything, it encourages hostility because of the competitive nature of it. There's been many times where i've had people send me rude messages, because i "stole" their mob. They are quickly added to ignore, making it the opposite experience that this dev says it promotes.
I thought WoW was going in a good direction with Timeless Isle, where mob-tagging is shared, but it seems like they did a 180 now, and are just riding the wave without any innovation with even the smaller QoL enhancements. By his logic, AOE looting is asocial too, since people have less time to be "social" because they didn't stick around long enough to loot.
Comments
I'm not sure you are properly understanding what they are trying to say. When you have open-tagging, you generally don't ever need to team up with other players in the area due to the fact that you will get credit for the mob kill no matter what. Even if you only get a single swipe in. No need to team up with people so that everyone gets credit, since it's going to happen anyway.
On the other hand, when a game has mob-tagging, many times players will feel the need to team up with each other so that everyone gets credit and people don't have to stand around for a respawn. That's all the dev was trying to say.
For the most part, I agree with him, although I would add a caveat: I do think mob-tagging, while more conducive to teamwork and social play, can go in the opposite direction easier and create hostility as well, due to "kill-stealing."
But I can say unequivocally that in games I've played that have mob-tagging, they've almost across the board been more social than games that have open-tagging. Open-tagging requires no communication, no social interaction of any type. While it pretty much eliminates the chance for hostility, it has always seemed far less social in my experience than games that have tagging. In that same vein, I also find games that have auto-grouping to be some of the least social games I've ever played.
In short, I don't think Blizzard is out of touch at all. In fact, I'd say they are right on the mark with this one.
Well, I prefer my games to be social AND fun. And for me, Archeage doesn't fit the bill. But overall, I agree with your point.
Except that PvP is a small experience in MMOs. In PVE it has nothing to do with community unless you think having to group helps the social aspect...cause it doesn't. Only in these imaginary PvP sandbox games people are still pretending are good or happening.
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
Your favorite response is that you disagree and don't understand most of the reply.
Not hard to understand....mob targetting/tagging ruins PvE. It may be really cool in these sub par PvP games you play, but you are acting like that's what counts. It only counts to you. In reality, it ruins the total experience.
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
I do see the point. But so what? It forces you to talk to strangers? Most of the games without it STILL have you talking to others that need to kill the mob. Especially if it's an elite. Social people will ask out loud if other need it. We don't need to be forced. Especially artificially.
The cons outweigh the pros either way
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
It's shared. You get credit as long as you helped enough. GW2 and ESO both have it and it works very well. You feel like you are an a group (a live world as well) without camping or nonsense pugs with people you will never see again. Grouping JUST to kill a mobs is silly and has nothing social about it to me.
I have made so many more friends in GW2 and ESO just by coming along and helping than I ever did in others that target/tag.
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
I understand completely what he's saying. I just disagree with it.
The only social interaction that comes out of it, from my experience, is that i'll ask someone to team up, or i'll just randomly invite them without saying a word, or they'll invite me. That's about it. He's trying to justify this as being somehow a positive experience, when's it's actually the opposite.
In truth, there isn't much difference. It's just keeping the nuisance of wasting time and making a few extra clicks to invite someone, then dropping group.
It also has many negatives too. There have been plenty of times where people do not help others because the mob is tagged already, and they wait for the player to die, so they can take the mob.
Ironically, their Dungeon Finder proves this dev wrong. There is almost zero socialization, and communication, in dungeon groups.
Not necessarily, but I'm not sure you understood the OP then.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
You may be right. I read it over about 3 times...thought we were talking about mob tagging (targeting being a wrong term then) which only allows a player or group to tag a mob and disallows others to attack it.
Like EQ did and WoW and others...am I wrong?
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
Actually, the dungeon finder example is a completely separate issue, but it works along the same lines. Forced grouping stifles social interaction. This includes dungeon finder, as well as auto-grouping in games like Rift and GW2.
Open-tagging works along those same lines. Everyone gets a piece of the pie without having to share it. No communication required. The unspoken MMO rules of decency and politeness no longer apply. So nobody speaks to anyone.
At least with mob-tagging, there is the opportunity to interact with others. Not everyone takes that opportunity, mind you, but at least it exists.
I've been playing MMOs for a long time. And I can say without a shadow of a doubt that games that have mob-tagging and manual grouping ALWAYS...not sometimes, but ALWAYS, are more social than games that have open tagging and auto-grouping.
When you take away the need for people to socialized, guess what? They don't.
that only happens if you find a guild member or someone you have grouped with in the past trying to get the same mob or ore vein. When all i want is to get a quest done and right before i hit the mob someone hits it from afar or hits it hard enough to take the tag for himself all that goes through my mind is ¨son of a.....¨
Mob tagging doesnt help my be more social, when i want to be social i talk to people regardless of what im doing.
Mob tagging should be limited to faction v faction (Horde v Alliance), while keeping mob and resources shared within a single faction. That way you have more reason to go out and fight the enemy for resources or rare mobs while friendlies help you out. Right now, in WoW, its poorly implemented because when you are fighting an enemy player to get a resource/mob (which is fine) and a friendly shows up, instead of helping you out they steal the mob/resource and go away (thats usually what i experience in mob tagging mmos). If it was shared then they would be more inclined to help out because they know they would both get rewarded.
My opinion, keep mob/resource tagging between enemy factions (and if there arent factions in the game, then based on PvP servers/maps). Tagging within PvE makes it more antisocial.
I just don't see how this artificial socialization, that this dev is trying to construct, is somehow better for socialization. The most interaction that happens, is someone asking to join a group, and then they just leave.
People will socialize when they want to. That's why guilds are formed, and that's why friends add each other to friends lists. It's a stretch trying to blame anti-social behavior on an auto-grouping feature.
Even people on teamspeak don't socialize much during raids.
Mob-tagging is just another hinderance to progress by keeping people waiting around. All you have to do is look at this pic in Archeage, and ask yourself if you are willing to wait 30+ minutes to turn in one quest. http://i.imgur.com/i3nq2yC.jpg
Was there socialization? Sure, but it was mainly about how silly it was waiting in line for a quest.
You'd be surprised how open people can be to social interaction when you give them a chance. You don't always have to be forced to do it. I've even made some long term friends with people I randomly chatted up for no reason.
I have to agree with this. I had similar experiences in GW2 where I was part of many groups that were organically created via natural gameplay. Started a skill point challenge, was having a hard time, some others came along to help, we thanked each other, moved to the next area together, kept chatting here and there, after saving each other from some waves of mobs we decided to form a group and played that way for a few hours.
I can see the benefits of having mob competition as well, but I don't feel like it promotes more or less social interactions than mob sharing does.
The bottom line truly is that people who want to be social outside of their normal circle of influence will be social. Those who don't want to be social won't be. You're not going to influence a persons inherent personality much with a mob tagging rule in a mmo.
The mistake many are making here is equating "team up" with "form a party". The great thing about not having tagging is it does encourage people to work together, without the palaver (and ridiculous artificiality) of joining up in a formal party. When you have tagging rules, if you see someone fighting a monster, you ignore them. If you don't have tagging rules, you may go along and help.
The last thing anyone wants when in the middle of a fight is having to reply to a whisper, and spamming a group invite without talking is bad manners, so being able to pitch right in is far the best solution.
Parties will still be formed for instances either way..
I really enjoyed the way GW2 handled this issue. Combat was fluid and encouraged everyone to work together. How is that asocial? Is standing around waiting for a specific mob to spawn so you can try to be the one to tag it a good idea?
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
The keyword here is "need".
Tagging mechanics do impose "need" on players, they force them and it is clear to everyone with only a bit of common sense that once you try to force players into something, they will leave or be annoeyed at best. Either is non-desired outcome.
Grouping and "solializing" - w/e is that supposed to be, should always be optional only and incentives should be promoted, not a necessities.
Competitiveness is naturaly asocial.
Imo Blizzard is right spot on. They are not blind folded with single philosophy, single approach. They try to design the game rules to fit specific content and purpose.
I quite agree. Playing GW2 for the first time was like a revelation of how tagging is an artificial and counterproductive mechanic.
Whatever people say about tagging encouraging socialisation, maybe in theory it does. In my experience it just don't work that way.
My experience as been completely oposite.
Playing games with tagging on (WoW being the biggest one) did make me create more groups, but usually were groups where nobody talked, we just formed the group, killed the thing or things, and everyone went away. Once the group was formed, though, you hoped nobody else (and specially no other groups) would show up... and, at least in my experience, also lead to quite a few negative social experiences. Some of the ones I remember happening to me usually involved someone else or another group tagging the mob while we were following waiting for a group member to arrive, and sometimes when someone else (accidentally or on purpose) aggroed the mob, the group would say things like "do not help him, let him die so we can get the mob for ourselves", and others where people were trolling by stealthing near a mob and tagging right before a group attacked, getting the credit for it.
GW2, so far the only game I've played with shared kill credit, has been a much more positive social experience so far, at least on that front. You're never wary of having other people around with you, actually it's highly encouraged because some events scale up the more people are doing them, so you can get better loot. I constantly see people calling out events and champion mobs in map chat, and when big boss events are about to start, and getting out of their way when they see the dead player icon on the minimap to go help them. At least that has been my experience so far.
Of course, I won't say it's all good... there have been a few events that have created some rather toxic social interactions because of design flaws that made them more lucrative to keep them going or fail them, but they're usually fixed when they're found. One example was on the capture of the temple of lyssa (IIRC), one of the pre-events to the capture itself involved destroying some walls surrounding an object of power, you had to destroy the walls, some mobs tried to repair them, while lots of mobs spawned constantly to attack you. If all walls were destroyed, the event succeeded, if you let the mobs fix all the walls, it failed... but some people found out that if you kept some of the walls intact, but destroying a few from time to time to prevent them all fixed, would result in an endless stream of mobs that dropped loot. I was yelled a few choice expletives when I went there, unaware of the farming method, saw the event, and rushed in to destroy the remaining pieces of the wall. Shortly afterwards the event was fixed by having the spawned mobs not drop any loot.
What can men do against such reckless hate?
My experience with GW2 is limited (leveled one character to 15) but my experience was that everyone just ran up, shared in whatever was being killed then went off on their way without ever interacting socially in any way.
That's not being social, that's just not being competitive.
Even in today's anti-social MMO's like most recently when I played ESO, people would group up sometimes to share the encounter on occasions, (especially some of those elite types) and sometimes, you even chatted for a bit with them.
Won't say any of those encounters led to meeting up afterwards to have a drink at the pub, but it was more interaction than I observed in GW2, which was literally not one single chat.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon