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Is Grouping become the thing that people just don't think about?
TheLizardbones
Member CommonPosts: 10,910
So last night I got a quest to grind reputation in WoW. I don't know if that is irony or what. The result is that in one area, people run around killing these guys to get reputation with Emperor Shaohao. It's pretty hard when several people get up there and if you take some elixirs that are available on the Timeless Isle, it becomes very possible to take down elites that are a level or two above you. It's almost easy.
But that's not the point. People, in the same faction were competing against each other for this faction reputation. I asked one guy if he was grinding rep, and his response was, "I'm trying". So I just started inviting people to a group. Everyone gets full reputation when a mob is killed, so it just made sense to me. Cooperation in this case makes far more sense than competition. It's like it just didn't occur to people up there to group together. Even the warrior that was literally killing stuff faster than I could loot it would profit from this. Nobody was against the idea of a group, and one guy thanked me for putting it together, like I had done something special.
Now, I am supportive of ideas like LFR, LFD, etc. I've spent my hours in general chat trying to put together a group manually for things, and it sucks. But that doesn't mean putting groups together is impossible. In a lot of situations, like grinding that rep just before an expansion, it's easy.
Have you run into this? Where people are not opposed to groups, and they even like groups so much they thank you for putting the group together, it's just that it did not occur to them to group together for maximum benefit?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Comments
Yeah, I do this quite often. It does seem like the concept is lost on people though. I actually grouped with one guy on the Iron Horde pre-patch quests and he declined me like 2 different times before accepting, when it was painfully obvious that we were both on the same quest. In the end, it was after I tagged a boss and then invited him that he accepted, even that took a second though. I waited and let the boss just keep hitting me to let him accept.
He gave a cordial thanks afterwords and we went our separate ways (once the quest line was done), but it just seems dumb to not, yet I see it so often.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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I think the issue is few people enjoy leading a group, at least I'm one of those.
I'll join in on almost any invite assuming I'm not about to log, but I will not form the group myself.
Guess I spend to much of my day leading teams during the day job to put up with any hassle of running a group in a game so like you said, I just don't think much about it.
Besides, there's the frustration factor. I have tried doing what you suggested on a few occasions in the distant past, and as I recall some folks ignore the invite and keep rudely killing the spawns. (bots, rude? who knows?)
At this point, all I want to do is kill them dead and most games don't permit it.
So now I guess I treat all other players as competitors and if I can get there first it's like... HA! In your face sucker!
Yeah, I know, I guess I've turned into the player I hate.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
For me grouping died when WoW first came out.
I think it died because of two things, the first was that you don't usually need to group. I think this is the lesser reason because I think people would want to group anyway if not for the second reason.
The second reason is that people aren't nice, or rather 1 out of 5 people aren't nice and one not-nice person is all it takes to ruin a group.
It wasn't WoW's fault, EQ had the same thing happening at the end. Typical conversation at the start of the group goes, "Let me see your Gear..." then in the groups one member says, "You should be playing your class this way...," and so on.
I think Voice chat made the problem worse. I usually read text in the most positive way, but when I can hear sarcasm it's just that much worse. The groups I always joined and enjoyed wanted to head into danger, but now finding a group that wants to do anything other than level as fast as possible is impossible.
Now I only group with guild mates or RL friends.
Asdar
I don't know. Every person I asked joined the group. There also wasn't a whole lot of "Leading" involved. It wasn't necessary to tell anyone what to do or where to go. Just run around and kill things. It was just a way to consolidate the generation of reputation. Now, I play a Priest, so I was able to heal people and their pets if things got hairy, so maybe that helped.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Ya OP, I know exactly what you mean. I had to do the same thing several times in Archeage. A lot of players would be fighting over mobs or a quest boss and it doesn't make sense why players will stand around waiting for one enemy to spawn and try to get a kill in when they can just work together and everybody gets the achievement.
I think, Mmo's are catering to single player experiences now. Especially because not everybody wants to play in a group or have friends they are comfortable playing with. Developers have to consider different play styles and individual personalities. I'm assuming of course.
Oh yeah, tons of people down there with the frogs. That was pretty crazy. There were more carcasses laying around than I think I've ever seen in the game before.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I don't play WoW anymore but i suppose this depends on one's preference. Personally, i don't usually group. Solo is much more fun for me.
Good post..
I have run into this often back years ago when I used to play WoW.. Personally, I think people are reluctant to group because they are almost too comfortable in soloing everything, and the game mechanics just do not promote grouping.. Lets take WoW for example since most know that game.. I go into a zone and keep following that damn quest hub breadcrumb trail.. Click ! and then ! and more of these !!!.. So what I did was accept quest number 32, 33, 34 and 35.. This is great for soloing, but for grouping it sucks.. Most players are never at the same quest progression and this becomes a problem.. It is why I hate questing as the focus for progression.. I would rather see a bounty system that allows for repeating objectives.. NPC offers a bounty of XP and coin for each wolf pelt you turn in.. Now when people are in the same area, there is no restriction to keep them apart.. People can now group up and go after those wolves together sharing the rewards.. Solo players or groups have the options now to either stay in one location or move about doing other bounties..
Back in the day people learned to group up to each others advantage.. Combat was safer and quicker.. I miss my Derv camps or Orc camps.. Now I will agree that EQ many times went too far in penalizing solo play in most classes.. I had always wished that "camps" were group focused, and roaming mobs should be soloable.. This way you have a win / win formula that no one feels penalized.. Keep this in mind.. Many classes like Warlocks in WoW, or Paladins specialized in certain situations such as "undead", why should a Paladin be punished and forced to quest hub away from undead, when he might want to FARM them.. Get rid of the quest hub after 10th level, and install repeating bounty system instead.. This I feel will bring GROUPING back to the forefront and make the game more social..
Your situation is a great example, too!
Solo is the name of the game, these days. Even if I feel like grouping, more often than not I don't. The players, if I ask, do not respond well, overall. The ridicule, scorn, and ignoring is not worth the effort most times.
The games also have something to do with this. It has been a long, long while since I went into an MMO thinking, "This will last me a few years." Making a connection with my avatar/character goes hand in hand with that. Why bother making friends when one will be gone from the game in a month?
So, yes. For me, grouping is rarely thought about now
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
That is why LFD is invented. There is no effort. Click a button, and you get a automatic group. No need to ask anyone.
Yeah pretty much the symptom of too much quick and easy solo content in MMOs.
Other non-formal grouping options could help I would think. Something like public quests but instead it would be a toggle that would autogroup to anyone else interested. Groups shouldn't have to have a specified leader with that responsibility when it is often shared away.
No one likes doing the above, that is what people thanked you for, not the grouping itself.
That is why tools like dungeon finder exist.
It is one of the quests you get when you first start on the island. Trust me, the irony or intentional sarcasm that I was getting a quest to grind mobs was not lost on me. :-)
I do get the whole solo thing. I am a solo player. I don't generally like just hanging out with people in a game. Carrying on a conversation well past the point where I've lost interest, needy people, etc. All that stuff gets on my nerves. But there are some things where grouping together is just the best way to do it. Grinding mobs is one of those things. I don't think there's ever been a game where grinding mobs doesn't work better with a group.
There were plenty of people there too. Finding people to group up wasn't an issue. Even asking them wasn't an issue. Everyone was amenable to grouping. It's just that it seemed like nobody thought of it. I'm fairly non-social, so it seemed unusual to me that I put the group together instead of being asked to group with people.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
It's mainly pure laziness or simply no desire to lead, though of course there is the lack of common sense when it comes to some people too.
Used to run into those types of situations all the time in the RvR zones in WAR. You would have 20 people just running around solo or in groups of 3 or 4, trying to fight an organized warband of 20 or so and people raging in chat about how bad they're losing. Meanwhile the enemy with an actual warband going had the advantages of group buffs & heals being applied to full parties instead of just 1 or 2 people, healers able to track HP and pop off heals for the entire WB through their HUD instead of trying to click on out of party people running all over the place, and constant communication through warband chat. On top of that, they were also missiing out on all the shared XP and RP.
It was like, why the hell are you severely gimping yourselves and then turning around and complaining that youre losing the fight and screwing yourself out of a bunch of free points?
As soon as someone finally steps up and forms a warband though everyone suddenly realizes it's a good idea and starts asking for invites.
I used to only group, strangers or whatever I grouped and liked it. Back then people were nice and I made friends in groups.
Then people changed. They started criticizing everyone and everything about the other players in the group. Usually I'm pretty aware of gear and tactics so it's usually not me. Just the same the first time I hear anyone complaining about other group members not having the correct classes in a group, the correct gear in a group or telling us how to do content I stop having fun. Dying in a group now equals finger pointing, making enemies and rude comments.
If I want a boss I'll go work for someone else, if I want nagging I'll go to my wife. LDF/LFG or whatever tool just means that I go through more groups all filled with rude people.
If I solo then I go through a game having fun, you won't ever hear me complain in any chat because the first thing I do in any game is turn off the chat. I group with guild mates and RL friends now. Even if you made a game that had content that can only be done in groups I wouldn't go with strangers.
Even 5 yrs ago I was just the opposite, but gamers have changed and it's too hard to find nice people. I don't even think most players know what being nice is. People come up and try to give me gold without saying a word and think they're being nice. That's not nice, that's rude. Talking to people in a friendly way is nice.
Asdar
The quest hub design make people don't want to party. Unless you have time to wait for quest boss or the boss just too tough for you to solo , there are no reason to group .
Players too busy with quests to even say "hello" , and join party for few minute then leave after finish then just join another party is too troublesome .
It not people forget grouping , just nowadays quests hub MMORPG make grouping become last chose a player may do.
5 minutes to archive something "logic" , even MOBA last for half or an hour .
If i only group for 5 minutes for something i can do alone , then leave and never meet again , then i rather solo .
Unless i have to wait in long line for boss , grouping sound like bad chose .
And this is the whole problem these days. Everyone feels MMO's need to be competitive. So people are only grouping for their own selfish reasons, to get what they want. All comes down to this hardcore mindset that many seem to have these days, even if they are not truly hardcore players.
Its no longer about fun, in MMO's, its about getting the best stuff and being the best. And stomp on everybody that gets in your way.
Until they start making grouping a cooperative experience instead of a competitive one, most people who just want to enjoy their game, will avoid groups.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
MMOs seem to be on strict rails these days and any deviation can mess up one's leveling experience.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I think about grouping every week several times a week.... everytime my Wife and I play Turbine's Lord of the Rings Online together and the Epic Quests and even some general quests tell us they "can't be completed in a Fellowship"... so in order to advance the quest lines we have to break our group and do the content Solo and then regroup after the quest.
Simply pathetic in my opinion.... we can't do a quest with just two of us in a group.... in a MMORPG designed originally for Group content... with at least one of the names tied to the game of "Fellowship of the Ring".
Yes, I think about group content and grouping in MMOs all the time.
I remember back in the early years of ffxi. Everyone would go to valkurn dunes to party, and at times there would be several people with there party flag up, but no one would start a group. Remember trying to pull lizards and snippers back to camp...
Even after getting a group and finding a safe spot to came, there would be several other groups around you. That made pulling mobs suck. I very rarely pulled mobs back to camp, but I remember running around for several minutes just looking for one to grab, hopefully before the other group would.
That's the only thing I hated about ffxi grouping, that areas could only really support 1 or 2 groups, or mobs became to hard to find.
FFXIV arr is completely different. Only some fates, and now hunt mobs require a few people to do in the open world. The only thing that requires grouping is instance and that can be automatically formed with their duty finder. They even gone as far as no one tag's mobs/gathering points anymore. Everone just shares everthing now.
Its sad in ffxi I used to group up just to help peoplei, but with ffxiv arr even though there could be 30+ people on in your guild only like 3,4 of those will actually say anything in chat. Every once in a while with ffxiv someone will ask "Does anyone need any help?" no one ever responds to it,
Let me give some examples of stuff people needed help with in ffxi.
1. The 3 mages gate (needed 3 mages to stand on these switchers to open it)
2. Quicksand caves ( Needed 2 or more people to stand on switches to open that)
3. This other dugeon (can't remember the name) it had 3 gates you needed a group to pass through.
4. One time was killing lizards for a rare stone drop for a teleport quest, me being whm took really long time to kill, so another guy went to the other zone and klled lizards there to help out.
5. Hunting specific nm's ( lot of those couldn't be solo'd if not a certain type of job) so people would group to help each other on those.
6. Just getting around the would teleporting required a whm that you had to group up with to send you around, or a blm you had to group with to warp you back to your home point. Back in ffxi you didn't wanna die cause you would loose xp and could dlvl and loose some of your gear, So people really wanted a manuall warp back.
7. There was a quest that was specifically designed for like 10 people around lvl 20, or something like that. It was called eco-warrior and each of the 3 starting cities had one. The very early days of ffxi, I remember seeing shouts all the time for those.
8. The Journey Bastok quest, you needed a full group of lvl 5 or below players. Your group would travel out pretty far to talk to an npc to complete it.
9. San doria had a quest that would 3/4 parts to it where you would form certain types of groups and go to the watch tower to talk to the guard there. It had a nice spell after completing that quest line.
Man so many things even quest's required groups in ffxi, I miss those days.
Nothing in ffxi was automatic everyone had to manually group up to do things in that game.
I have and its wierd. I really cannot wrap my head around it. People actually forgot that there is a group mechanic because they stopped using it when the group finders came out.
But in this situation you observed the other people (something most solo'ers dont even do) came to the conclusion that your doing the exact same thing and grouping benefited everyone involved.
It's not the trouble of leading a group there is no leading you all have the same objective and your on the spot there no leading apart from clicking an invite button and keep killing what you are killing. People simply forgot that grouping is even an option outside of dungeons.
This shocks me. My entire reasoning for playing MMO's (back in the day) was that i could co-op with people tangle a objective together (2 swords do more then 1) and the result was light chatting and if partying more then once actually becomming good friends.
It seems that this just does not exist anymore because mmo's are solo friendly. Somewhere further in this thread u (or someone else) said it sucked to put groups together but honestly ive never had that problem specially with just a group of 4-5. Because grouping was mandatory you got to know alot of people and your friendlist would grow and grow. I had no problem filling a group.
I do have to note that i always play a tank and them + healers are harder to find then dps.