Originally posted by rounner Progression doesn't have to be an increase in ability. Game designs are prisoners to peoples expectations and we are forever held back by the majority who can only imagine what they've already seen.
This is actually really true. A lot of people are very close minded when it comes to their expectations of different games/MMOs, and companies want to please the majority because that's what will make them money; so the people that want change and want to try new concepts and ideas are very unlikely to see an AAA of their liking. This is where Indie games come in and try to please the outcasts of the MMO community and a lot (a lot, not always) of times fail to get their desired playerbase and die off. Its an ongoing cycle in my opinion.
Because gaining statistical advantages is a core part of an rpg. If you take away that then your left with an "action game".
A genre is not a prison to design decisions its a way for people to help identify a feature set they like. Rpg's and MMorpgs are statistically based games which focus on character progression.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
Originally posted by Daikuru Maybe most ppl cant imagine a mmorpg without leveling, there a many ways to progress your charakter instead of endless leveling, maybe its the easiest way for developer to fill their game with leveling nonsense content and so they can keep the player busy, but for me they should focus more on the "endgame", i would like to play a mmo where i can do the endgame thing right from the start, ofc not all of it, i still need to get stronger, but i dont need to level up for it.
Such a MMORPG exists, it's called EVE, play it and quit complaining.
I played EVE and i didnt complain.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Originally posted by Sevenstar61 TSW does not have levels - the progress is measured by acquiring skills. To me there is something magicalthough about leveling... the best thing would be if all content in MMO would scale to your level automatically.
TSW has a linear vertical leveling curve from 1-10.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
TSW does not have levels - the progress is measured by acquiring skills. To me there is something magicalthough about leveling... the best thing would be if all content in MMO would scale to your level automatically.
The TSW "no levels" mechanic was marketing buzz, nothing more. It's a flat lie - your gear tier in TSW is effectively your level.
The only way to give the feeling of progression and achievement without levels that I can think of is to make the game equipment based without the ability to refine your equipment (since that would be a form of leveling). Each area would drop certain equipment that you would need to farm in order to survive the next area, but then it becomes a gear grind rather than a level grind.
Because gaining statistical advantages is a core part of an rpg. If you take away that then your left with an "action game".
A genre is not a prison to design decisions its a way for people to help identify a feature set they like. Rpg's and MMorpgs are statistically based games which focus on character progression.
You can have an action rpg. The quoted reads as if action game and rpg are mutually exclusive. I would call shadows of mordor and batman arkham asylum action rpg's.
A lot of genre's involve gaining statistical advantages which could be considered a core part of their game. What RTS doesnt involve gaining a statistical advantage to win? Destiny involves this but I dont consider it an MMORPG. I would consider Destiny a multiplayer action rpg. When I was young choose your own adventure books just hit and there was a sense of progression and that your choices mattered without any sort of odd leveling scheme added.
Back in my pen and paper days me and my friends messed with the marvel tabletop rpg a bit. There were no levels. You either chose a character to play or created your own. There were also several other tabletop rpgs without levels. Video game rpgs are just an extension of the table top games and no where have I ever seen leveling as being the defining aspect of rpgs.
These games are not called 'statistical progression/advantage games' nor are they called ' level based progression games', they are called Role Playing games.
Originally posted by Sovrath I prefer some sort of leveling. It's also part of the whole "rpg" thing.
I never understood why people take "leveling" as the primary component of an rpg. I would think that, you know, role playing is the focus? The problem is that MMO's do not actually focus on the role playing element.
You are death knight and you approach the evil boss and kill it just like every player before you and after you will, here is stuff, congratulations. In your party happens to be a paladin and your entire fucking existence goes against his religious belief system but hey, fuck it, its LOOOOT!
Maybe if a game came along and started you out with, lets say, nothing. You manage to scavenge or steal some food to survive. You find some fellow hood rats, one of which teaches you how to pick pockets. You put this skill to use gathering up enough cash to buy a cheap dagger, food, and some clothes. Some goblins attack the city. You scavenge through the corpses managing to gather some useful items. Holy shit, we have progression without leveling.
When leveling isnt a factor there is more reason to explore, quest, fight, craft, or do that thing that you would rather spend your time doing other than worrying about " am I high enough level to do that? ". There are a myriad of ways to add a feeling of progression to a game. When I play the forest, I feel much more immersed and like I am actually playing and RPG over lets say, WoW. I am doing things that will help me survive. I am exploring and building. I am fighting. I am not looking at an EXP bar.
Now personally I dont mind skill based games. As you swing that sword you probably should get better at it over time. The problem is the huge gap between level 1 and max level thats more annoying than beneficial to the player.
Why is it that leveling is considered the only method of progression appropriate for games. I read a book and every page feels like progression. I watch a movie and every second feels like progression. Every log I chop down in the Forest feels like progression. I believe what people really enjoy about mmo's is that they can create, build, or earn something that is there to use every single time they log in. I believe that is progression and I just dont see leveling being a requirement for it.
See, someone gets it. That kind of intelligence is all too rare here.
"Leveling" and "stats" are not core to the RPG genre. They are mechanics that have become coincidentally entrenched in it through habit and tradition. Nothing more. Nothing less. These are used to create one kind of RPG experience - the cliched hero's journey from a nobody to a mighty warrior, but they can only be used to simulate this form of experience and they can only do so on the most arbitrary, base level.
Now, what is an RPG? It is, literally, a role playing game. It is a game in which a player controls a character (whether premade or of their own making) and guides them through a story (either preordained or free form) to experience said story in their character's shoes. An RPG is about making CHOICES (in terms of story, personality, and action decisions) during the course of the adventure. It is this factor - player choice - that is the defining characteristic of the RPG.
To say that stat allocation or leveling has anything to do with the decision making of the RPG genre is ludicrous, however. These are not meaningful choices in terms of roleplaying. Unlike class or skill choice (which are designed to define the way your character approaches problems), stats do not represent the nature of your character, nor do they hold a canon place in the story or the world that you are experiencing. They do not impact a character's decisions and they do not effect how others perceive your character.
@ post #34 (because I don't feel like building a pyramid today. And, what I have to say is going to be no short read. And, I would like to apply my points to pretty much all of it).
So, a long time ago I used to play RPG's and MMORPG's that were strictly role playing (both graphical and text based). In many cases there wasn't even a combat meter and we had to use T1-T5 combat. While it was very free form. Just about any interaction beyond passing pleasantries required either moderator presence or intervention.
Say you have a few people exploring a dungeon. Player 1. spots a chest (end emotes having done so). Player 2. immediately jumps on the opportunity to open the chest (it having been recognized in role play). Player 1. is outraged. They spotted the chest and felt that they should have been given fair chance at opening it or allowing someone else to do the action. Player 2. feel justified. Player 3. wants to know why it had to be either of them in discovering or opening the chest. Before you know it a moderator is called to resolve it. Which usually comes down to a matter of semantics, personal favorites etc. No one is really happy.
Now, had they possessed levels, archetypes, and had thew ability to roll (central trappings of an RPG). Then this would have turned out differently...
Say Player 1. had level lvl3. PER. And, was a Mage (with a mage light spell that gave him and his party within 14 game spaces +1 to perception). And, the rest of his party had lvl1. perception unaided. So we have Player 1. with lvl4.(+1) PER. Player 2. With lvl2.(+1) PER. And, Player 3. with lvl2.(+1) PER.
Now we have a situation where one player naturally has the right of way on discovery. But this means he would always discover everything and thus things would get dull quickly. So we an RNG.
Lets say 1-6. If Player 1. makes an attempt at discovery and roles a 1. Then he fails...horribly. Actually, he is peering into the darkness so hard that his low agility comes into play. And, he trips on a rock, that causes him to drop his staff and the light goes out. He probably injures himself a little (roll a d4 against AC).
Player 2. is a rouge. And, adept to working in the dark being a nightling (yeah I know, we are just making up races now...go with it). In the dark he gets +1 to PER. So he is still lvl2.(+1)PER. He also has lvl3. AGI. Which isn't effected by conditions that don't specifically target it (like a miasma). He decides being so close to the mage that he will crawl around and help look for the staff. He rolls a 5 on this. A decent success. He not only finds the staff but is able to help the mage back to his feet and put it in his hands.
Light goes back on...wait a minute...where is Player 3.? Well player 3. is a barbarian. Impatient, an introvert and tough. Decent AGI, high STR, high AC. He wasn't about to wait on this bumbling to resolve to get results. So while the other two were messing around he rolled to find his way by feel along the wall and ahead of the group. And, by chance of getting nothing but 6's. He not only found his way in the dark but ended up putting his hands on something not stone...but wooden.
So light comes back on and he is in front of them. hands on the chest. And being a barbarian. Every success against a stupid move gives him a +1 to Initiative. So, he doesn't wait for the rouge to check for traps and pick the lock. He rips the chest open and take a poisoned wall fired dart to the forehead. The mage treats him (though not a cleric he has some healing ability) the rogue secrets away a bright gem that was amongst the loot on top of his share of the split. And, every one goes home more or less happy with a good story to tell.
The moral of this stat heavy story being, Levels and the mechanics that work along side them are core to both RPG and MMORPG since their inception. Because, without them. a game quickly descends into chaos. And when they are implemented well. They actually enhance the ability for roll play (yes that is a pun). imagine the whining of the mage. the grumblings of the barbarian. the exasperation of the rouge. And how they chose to role play a much deeper and more involved situation then it would have been without all those trappings.
But, as with my LoZ example earlier. It isn't just about level. And, levels can easily be a hidden stat. The great leveler has to be that ultimately it is up to skill and a little luck. Levels are a good starting point. But, they do become a problem if they are the main point. As long as we make sure that they remain a rough guide. And, not the thing that preordains the mode of play and what everyone will be doing. We're fine.
Now, had they possessed levels, archetypes, and had thew ability to roll (central trappings of an RPG). Then this would have turned out differently...
Say Player 1. had level lvl3. PER. And, was a Mage (with a mage light spell that gave him and his party within 14 game spaces +1 to perception). And, the rest of his party had lvl1. perception unaided. So we have Player 1. with lvl4.(+1) PER. Player 2. With lvl2.(+1) PER. And, Player 3. with lvl2.(+1) PER.
Now we have a situation where one player naturally has the right of way on discovery. But this means he would always discover everything and thus things would get dull quickly. So we an RNG.
Lets say 1-6. If Player 1. makes an attempt at discovery and roles a 1. Then he fails...horribly. Actually, he is peering into the darkness so hard that his low agility comes into play. And, he trips on a rock, that causes him to drop his staff and the light goes out. He probably injures himself a little (roll a d4 against AC).
Player 2. is a rouge. And, adept to working in the dark being a nightling (yeah I know, we are just making up races now...go with it). In the dark he gets +1 to PER. So he is still lvl2.(+1)PER. He also has lvl3. AGI. Which isn't effected by conditions that don't specifically target it (like a miasma). He decides being so close to the mage that he will crawl around and help look for the staff. He rolls a 5 on this. A decent success. He not only finds the staff but is able to help the mage back to his feet and put it in his hands.
The moral of this stat heavy story being, Levels and the mechanics that work along side them are core to both RPG and MMORPG since their inception. Because, without them. a game quickly descends into chaos. And when they are implemented well. They actually enhance the ability for roll play (yes that is a pun). imagine the whining of the mage. the grumblings of the barbarian. the exasperation of the rouge. And how they chose to role play a much deeper and more involved situation then it would have been without all those trappings.
You imply that if you have one of these things, that being levels, archetypes, and statistics, that you must have them all. You can have one, multiples, or none of these things and have an rpg. With statistics and archetypes with no levels you can have the same outcome that you describe.
Also I am curious as to why the color red is adept at working in the dark...
I like Darkfall Unholy Wars concept. No levels, only skills. To get skills or make them stronger requires prowess points which you gain from pretty much doing anything in the game. Then you can do a little of each and nothing will feel boring and you progress at the same time. Good stuff!
The expansions of Guild Wars 1 didn't have the typical leveling grind. You did level to 20 pretty much in the course of the tutorial, but after that you stayed 20 for the main story. Gear was also capped at a certain level, which you could get around the same time you hit 20.
After that, you advanced through the skills you acquired for your 8 slot skill bar, one of which could be an elite skill, which was a more powerful version of a regular skill, typically.
The original Guild Wars game ("Prophecies") had you level up much, much, MUCH slower, so that you only hit 20 right around the last couple missions of the game.
Now, had they possessed levels, archetypes, and had thew ability to roll (central trappings of an RPG). Then this would have turned out differently...
Say Player 1. had level lvl3. PER. And, was a Mage (with a mage light spell that gave him and his party within 14 game spaces +1 to perception). And, the rest of his party had lvl1. perception unaided. So we have Player 1. with lvl4.(+1) PER. Player 2. With lvl2.(+1) PER. And, Player 3. with lvl2.(+1) PER.
Now we have a situation where one player naturally has the right of way on discovery. But this means he would always discover everything and thus things would get dull quickly. So we an RNG.
Lets say 1-6. If Player 1. makes an attempt at discovery and roles a 1. Then he fails...horribly. Actually, he is peering into the darkness so hard that his low agility comes into play. And, he trips on a rock, that causes him to drop his staff and the light goes out. He probably injures himself a little (roll a d4 against AC).
Player 2. is a rouge. And, adept to working in the dark being a nightling (yeah I know, we are just making up races now...go with it). In the dark he gets +1 to PER. So he is still lvl2.(+1)PER. He also has lvl3. AGI. Which isn't effected by conditions that don't specifically target it (like a miasma). He decides being so close to the mage that he will crawl around and help look for the staff. He rolls a 5 on this. A decent success. He not only finds the staff but is able to help the mage back to his feet and put it in his hands.
The moral of this stat heavy story being, Levels and the mechanics that work along side them are core to both RPG and MMORPG since their inception. Because, without them. a game quickly descends into chaos. And when they are implemented well. They actually enhance the ability for roll play (yes that is a pun). imagine the whining of the mage. the grumblings of the barbarian. the exasperation of the rouge. And how they chose to role play a much deeper and more involved situation then it would have been without all those trappings.
You imply that if you have one of these things, that being levels, archetypes, and statistics, that you must have them all. You can have one, multiples, or none of these things and have an rpg. With statistics and archetypes with no levels you can have the same outcome that you describe.
Also I am curious as to why the color red is adept at working in the dark...
Partly true...You don't need RNG to be used in conjunction with levels for a single player experience. Flat and easily accountable damage is fine for something like that. And, may even be alright up to a co-op or heads-up vs.
But, when you get into fully fleshed out multi-player, you do need a playing field leveler. Otherwise you run into the issue of people within a few levels of each other not being able to be competitive with each other. This can be something like augments/upgrades for equipment. Or something like buffs from abilities and the choice being made between different skill tree paths, as well. It doesn't have to be RNG. But, RNG is a natural at doing this. Which makes it a go-to. Even when you have other things in place, you will typically also see some sort of RNG. Because, it is really good at what it does when implemented well.
And, I used the word archetypes instead of class for a reason. Because, not all games have a class system. But, even absent a class system it is usually possible to build into commonly recognized archetypes (regardless of whether a game gives it a label or not). Complete freedom does not equate to acting in a jack of all trades manner for everyone. Many people still like to specialize even when given the option to not have to do so.
Also, I don't understand what is meant by that last line.
[edit] oh you typo'ed and the way I put it was confusing. How I should have framed that was "And, he is also a nightling, which makes him adept at working in the dark." (and nightling for these purposes is something of an arbitrary race name, meant to evoke the idea that the race would be described as creature that is at its natural best during the night) sorry about that part.
I think the future of MMO's will come from a very unlikely source, Rockstar games. They already played around a bit with GTA online, which is not so far from an MMO when you think about it. All they'd have to do is add ability to make your own guns, a contrived leveling mechanic, and 4 or 5 little hotkeys at the bottom for abilities that don't make any damn sense, boom a pretty sweet mmo. It has questing, full PVP, a pretty interesting non-player economy. And ironically it's more difficult then pretty much any MMO now in the fact that a ton of stuff requires grouping.
The next GTA could very likely be completely online. They'll probably have some RPG aspects like stamina for running or strength for hitting stuff and aiming, but that to me is not so much "leveling" as it is simple progression. Increase your wallet+inrcrease your ability to aim a gun. Anybody can still kill you with a headshot or run over you with a car though. Maybe they'll make a fully online version for the next Read Dead Redemption, dream come true and a huge market for that.
More importantly, they can tap into a huge market that's been largely untouched by MMOs. Forget Blizzard if that ever happened, they'd get blown out of the water.
Originally posted by Sovrath I prefer some sort of leveling. It's also part of the whole "rpg" thing.
I never understood why people take "leveling" as the primary component of an rpg. I would think that, you know, role playing is the focus? The problem is that MMO's do not actually focus on the role playing element. True, most open role playing is pretty much gone.. Games now are being homogenized into everyone can play everything in one character..
You are death knight and you approach the evil boss and kill it just like every player before you and after you will, here is stuff, congratulations. In your party happens to be a paladin and your entire fucking existence goes against his religious belief system but hey, fuck it, its LOOOOT! True, this I found total BS as well.. I wish they would bring back features that effected your character such as religion and actions.. If a Paladin started teaming up with Rogues going around killing anything, there should be consequences..
Maybe if a game came along and started you out with, lets say, nothing. You manage to scavenge or steal some food to survive. You find some fellow hood rats, one of which teaches you how to pick pockets. You put this skill to use gathering up enough cash to buy a cheap dagger, food, and some clothes. Some goblins attack the city. You scavenge through the corpses managing to gather some useful items. Holy shit, we have progression without leveling. True, but we shouldn't be born as Elite fighters.. Isn't that something we should build up to.. Take Karate for example.. I doubt anyone starts off as a skilled black belt (except Bruce Lee) lol
When leveling isnt a factor there is more reason to explore, quest, fight, craft, or do that thing that you would rather spend your time doing other than worrying about " am I high enough level to do that? ". There are a myriad of ways to add a feeling of progression to a game. When I play the forest, I feel much more immersed and like I am actually playing and RPG over lets say, WoW. I am doing things that will help me survive. I am exploring and building. I am fighting. I am not looking at an EXP bar.
Now personally I dont mind skill based games. As you swing that sword you probably should get better at it over time. The problem is the huge gap between level 1 and max level thats more annoying than beneficial to the player. Skilled base games are still leveling.. Progression is progression.. Yes, you can dress it differently, but it still effects the power a character has..
Why is it that leveling is considered the only method of progression appropriate for games. I read a book and every page feels like progression. I watch a movie and every second feels like progression. Every log I chop down in the Forest feels like progression. I believe what people really enjoy about mmo's is that they can create, build, or earn something that is there to use every single time they log in. I believe that is progression and I just dont see leveling being a requirement for it.
I do agree tho that today's games are less focused on role playing, and more focused on Pavlov's dog.. You can't condition role playing, that comes naturally.. However, toss in some goals and rewards and you have a money maker game that attacks the psych of the sheep..
People misunderstand what the "P" really stands for in MMORPG. (or at least what it's become)
Massively Multiplayer Online Role-playing, "Progression" Game is how the genre has largely evolved, and the majority of the player base expects some sort of progression system to be at its core.
What the OP talks about back in the day were called Adventure games and they largely lost favor to RPGs that had progression systems, which normally included levels.
Do they always need levels? No, but they always need progression or they are of no interest to me.
In fact, I usually quit MMOs when they reach end game and the only progression is to endlessly upgrade your gear, that's not a mechanic I enjoy.
DAOC had a good end game progression system with their realm points, and EVE is the ultimate progression lovers game, 5 years of playing on 4 accounts, and still am progressing my characters in multiple ways.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I've always said the biggest problem with MMORPGs is there is a game you have to play to get to the game you want to play.
MMORPGs should have progression. All RPGs start you out weak and through experience you get stronger. I'm not opposed to leveling per se, but I am opposed to this concept of duality. The game should not change,
For all of its grindy, cash grabbing P2W mechanics, I'll have to say, Rappelz has some excellent systems. for one thing, Back when i played it, it had already reached maturity. However, no one had ever reached level cap. Now, I'm not suggesting a game is made to be grindy for the sake of being grindy, but the point was, the game that everyone was playing a few years in had not changed at all from the 1st day they created a character. I'm sure there are better ways to accomplish this.
There are so many things already done well in this genre, it wouldn't take any kind of innovation to create the most successful MMORPG ever made. It would just take the right team with the right developers from the right publisher to do the right kind of homework and take from what is already out there that is known to work and put them all together in the right combinations.
I think the future of MMO's will come from a very unlikely source, Rockstar games. They already played around a bit with GTA online, which is not so far from an MMO when you think about it. All they'd have to do is add ability to make your own guns, a contrived leveling mechanic, and 4 or 5 little hotkeys at the bottom for abilities that don't make any damn sense, boom a pretty sweet mmo. It has questing, full PVP, a pretty interesting non-player economy. And ironically it's more difficult then pretty much any MMO now in the fact that a ton of stuff requires grouping.
The next GTA could very likely be completely online. They'll probably have some RPG aspects like stamina for running or strength for hitting stuff and aiming, but that to me is not so much "leveling" as it is simple progression. Increase your wallet+inrcrease your ability to aim a gun. Anybody can still kill you with a headshot or run over you with a car though. Maybe they'll make a fully online version for the next Read Dead Redemption, dream come true and a huge market for that.
More importantly, they can tap into a huge market that's been largely untouched by MMOs. Forget Blizzard if that ever happened, they'd get blown out of the water.
While I agree there is potential there, Rockstar views the PC as a dying platform. They are much more invested in the console.
Originally posted by NitthBecause gaining statistical advantages is a core part of an rpg. If you take away that then your left with an "action game".A genre is not a prison to design decisions its a way for people to help identify a feature set they like. Rpg's and MMorpgs are statistically based games which focus on character progression.
You can have an action rpg. The quoted reads as if action game and rpg are mutually exclusive. I would call shadows of mordor and batman arkham asylum action rpg's.
A lot of genre's involve gaining statistical advantages which could be considered a core part of their game. What RTS doesnt involve gaining a statistical advantage to win? Destiny involves this but I dont consider it an MMORPG. I would consider Destiny a multiplayer action rpg. When I was young choose your own adventure books just hit and there was a sense of progression and that your choices mattered without any sort of odd leveling scheme added.
Back in my pen and paper days me and my friends messed with the marvel tabletop rpg a bit. There were no levels. You either chose a character to play or created your own. There were also several other tabletop rpgs without levels. Video game rpgs are just an extension of the table top games and no where have I ever seen leveling as being the defining aspect of rpgs.
These games are not called 'statistical progression/advantage games' nor are they called ' level based progression games', they are called Role Playing games.
And yet, Why have a Dodge% when you can physically move out the way? Why have Attack Power, When the enemy can physically evade you?
The more action you put in an rpg the less it feels like one imo.
"Action Rpgs" fight this identity crisis all the time. Wildstar focuses on Movement and dodge, What do they do? give enemies autoattacks that cannot be dodged : Crazy.
That's why its good (imo) to have specific genres that cater to people that like certain styles and systems as not to disappoint them with a hybrid that doesn't live up to expectations.
I respect that you PnP, But these computer "rpgs" have been like this since their inception even if they were or wernt based on PnP.
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Leveling gives you a feeling a progress and can be fun, but I don't like the power discrepancy that comes with levels. For example in WoW a lvl 60 players would never stand a chance against a level 90 players and would also never be able to participate in the same content as the lvl 90. In my ideal game I would like a smaller discrepancy between player power and levels. For example you might need to attain a higher level to acquire a certain skill but you won't be 1000s of times stronger than the lower lvl player. This would shift the focus from "I need to level or I won't be able to play with my friends" to just being able to explore the game and play at your own pace.
You can't have a cake and eat it too..
You absolutely can. Back then in old UO this was exactly the case.
And do prefer that kind.
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
I've always said the biggest problem with MMORPGs is there is a game you have to play to get to the game you want to play.
MMORPGs should have progression. All RPGs start you out weak and through experience you get stronger. I'm not opposed to leveling per se, but I am opposed to this concept of duality. The game should not change,
For all of its grindy, cash grabbing P2W mechanics, I'll have to say, Rappelz has some excellent systems. for one thing, Back when i played it, it had already reached maturity. However, no one had ever reached level cap. Now, I'm not suggesting a game is made to be grindy for the sake of being grindy, but the point was, the game that everyone was playing a few years in had not changed at all from the 1st day they created a character. I'm sure there are better ways to accomplish this.
There are so many things already done well in this genre, it wouldn't take any kind of innovation to create the most successful MMORPG ever made. It would just take the right team with the right developers from the right publisher to do the right kind of homework and take from what is already out there that is known to work and put them all together in the right combinations.
And in some way it comes down to this.
And in some games i experienced it to some degree, like in UO. All of the game was more or less available from day one, and that changed not that much.. as you could also play with more or less all player together independent how long they played that game.
To some degree that works in EvE, too. Although you need some minimum skill setup(which wasn't that much different in UO either), but in EvE you require quit some time(few weeks) to get to this, whereas in UO you could basicly accomplish it within the first few days. Similar to that was also DAoC @lvl50 with the PvP progression.. you could play with all players and against, and still progressed for a very long time.. granted in DAoC the difference between RR1 and RR9 was rather huge, however a big part was the dps increase at RR5(at that point you could finally use all of the dps of the weapons) with out that there would be still a difference, and you would still feel the very same progression, but with less power difference.
Other games were similar to different degrees.
With other words what i do prefer, and what i would like would be a very flat vertical progression with a not so huge difference between lvl1 to max lvl(or skilllevel niveau) and along with it a good junk of horizontal progression to get from time to time something new.
However.. i am a pvp player, and withit i do have different needs.. i can fully understand that a pve only player will not have that much against a strong vertical progression.. but still even then the problem of wasting content and mudflation.. well usually i point here at Raph Kosters blog entry "Do levels suck?" from back in 2005.. because basicly most of this problems and possible solutions are not really new, they are basicly as old as the genre, even back then in the MUDs time.
Skyforge has been sounding more and more promising to me (as it speaks to my inner Guild Wars 1 vet). I just can't bring myself to bank on that though.
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This is actually really true. A lot of people are very close minded when it comes to their expectations of different games/MMOs, and companies want to please the majority because that's what will make them money; so the people that want change and want to try new concepts and ideas are very unlikely to see an AAA of their liking. This is where Indie games come in and try to please the outcasts of the MMO community and a lot (a lot, not always) of times fail to get their desired playerbase and die off. Its an ongoing cycle in my opinion.
Because gaining statistical advantages is a core part of an rpg. If you take away that then your left with an "action game".
A genre is not a prison to design decisions its a way for people to help identify a feature set they like. Rpg's and MMorpgs are statistically based games which focus on character progression.
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- Albert Einstein
TSW has a linear vertical leveling curve from 1-10.
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The TSW "no levels" mechanic was marketing buzz, nothing more. It's a flat lie - your gear tier in TSW is effectively your level.
You can have an action rpg. The quoted reads as if action game and rpg are mutually exclusive. I would call shadows of mordor and batman arkham asylum action rpg's.
A lot of genre's involve gaining statistical advantages which could be considered a core part of their game. What RTS doesnt involve gaining a statistical advantage to win? Destiny involves this but I dont consider it an MMORPG. I would consider Destiny a multiplayer action rpg. When I was young choose your own adventure books just hit and there was a sense of progression and that your choices mattered without any sort of odd leveling scheme added.
Back in my pen and paper days me and my friends messed with the marvel tabletop rpg a bit. There were no levels. You either chose a character to play or created your own. There were also several other tabletop rpgs without levels. Video game rpgs are just an extension of the table top games and no where have I ever seen leveling as being the defining aspect of rpgs.
These games are not called 'statistical progression/advantage games' nor are they called ' level based progression games', they are called Role Playing games.
See, someone gets it. That kind of intelligence is all too rare here.
"Leveling" and "stats" are not core to the RPG genre. They are mechanics that have become coincidentally entrenched in it through habit and tradition. Nothing more. Nothing less. These are used to create one kind of RPG experience - the cliched hero's journey from a nobody to a mighty warrior, but they can only be used to simulate this form of experience and they can only do so on the most arbitrary, base level.
Now, what is an RPG? It is, literally, a role playing game. It is a game in which a player controls a character (whether premade or of their own making) and guides them through a story (either preordained or free form) to experience said story in their character's shoes. An RPG is about making CHOICES (in terms of story, personality, and action decisions) during the course of the adventure. It is this factor - player choice - that is the defining characteristic of the RPG.
To say that stat allocation or leveling has anything to do with the decision making of the RPG genre is ludicrous, however. These are not meaningful choices in terms of roleplaying. Unlike class or skill choice (which are designed to define the way your character approaches problems), stats do not represent the nature of your character, nor do they hold a canon place in the story or the world that you are experiencing. They do not impact a character's decisions and they do not effect how others perceive your character.
@ post #34 (because I don't feel like building a pyramid today. And, what I have to say is going to be no short read. And, I would like to apply my points to pretty much all of it).
So, a long time ago I used to play RPG's and MMORPG's that were strictly role playing (both graphical and text based). In many cases there wasn't even a combat meter and we had to use T1-T5 combat. While it was very free form. Just about any interaction beyond passing pleasantries required either moderator presence or intervention.
Say you have a few people exploring a dungeon. Player 1. spots a chest (end emotes having done so). Player 2. immediately jumps on the opportunity to open the chest (it having been recognized in role play). Player 1. is outraged. They spotted the chest and felt that they should have been given fair chance at opening it or allowing someone else to do the action. Player 2. feel justified. Player 3. wants to know why it had to be either of them in discovering or opening the chest. Before you know it a moderator is called to resolve it. Which usually comes down to a matter of semantics, personal favorites etc. No one is really happy.
Now, had they possessed levels, archetypes, and had thew ability to roll (central trappings of an RPG). Then this would have turned out differently...
Say Player 1. had level lvl3. PER. And, was a Mage (with a mage light spell that gave him and his party within 14 game spaces +1 to perception). And, the rest of his party had lvl1. perception unaided. So we have Player 1. with lvl4.(+1) PER. Player 2. With lvl2.(+1) PER. And, Player 3. with lvl2.(+1) PER.
Now we have a situation where one player naturally has the right of way on discovery. But this means he would always discover everything and thus things would get dull quickly. So we an RNG.
Lets say 1-6. If Player 1. makes an attempt at discovery and roles a 1. Then he fails...horribly. Actually, he is peering into the darkness so hard that his low agility comes into play. And, he trips on a rock, that causes him to drop his staff and the light goes out. He probably injures himself a little (roll a d4 against AC).
Player 2. is a rouge. And, adept to working in the dark being a nightling (yeah I know, we are just making up races now...go with it). In the dark he gets +1 to PER. So he is still lvl2.(+1)PER. He also has lvl3. AGI. Which isn't effected by conditions that don't specifically target it (like a miasma). He decides being so close to the mage that he will crawl around and help look for the staff. He rolls a 5 on this. A decent success. He not only finds the staff but is able to help the mage back to his feet and put it in his hands.
Light goes back on...wait a minute...where is Player 3.? Well player 3. is a barbarian. Impatient, an introvert and tough. Decent AGI, high STR, high AC. He wasn't about to wait on this bumbling to resolve to get results. So while the other two were messing around he rolled to find his way by feel along the wall and ahead of the group. And, by chance of getting nothing but 6's. He not only found his way in the dark but ended up putting his hands on something not stone...but wooden.
So light comes back on and he is in front of them. hands on the chest. And being a barbarian. Every success against a stupid move gives him a +1 to Initiative. So, he doesn't wait for the rouge to check for traps and pick the lock. He rips the chest open and take a poisoned wall fired dart to the forehead. The mage treats him (though not a cleric he has some healing ability) the rogue secrets away a bright gem that was amongst the loot on top of his share of the split. And, every one goes home more or less happy with a good story to tell.
The moral of this stat heavy story being, Levels and the mechanics that work along side them are core to both RPG and MMORPG since their inception. Because, without them. a game quickly descends into chaos. And when they are implemented well. They actually enhance the ability for roll play (yes that is a pun). imagine the whining of the mage. the grumblings of the barbarian. the exasperation of the rouge. And how they chose to role play a much deeper and more involved situation then it would have been without all those trappings.
But, as with my LoZ example earlier. It isn't just about level. And, levels can easily be a hidden stat. The great leveler has to be that ultimately it is up to skill and a little luck. Levels are a good starting point. But, they do become a problem if they are the main point. As long as we make sure that they remain a rough guide. And, not the thing that preordains the mode of play and what everyone will be doing. We're fine.
You imply that if you have one of these things, that being levels, archetypes, and statistics, that you must have them all. You can have one, multiples, or none of these things and have an rpg. With statistics and archetypes with no levels you can have the same outcome that you describe.
Also I am curious as to why the color red is adept at working in the dark...
Well, Doom had levels. And progressing through the levels you got better gear.
The expansions of Guild Wars 1 didn't have the typical leveling grind. You did level to 20 pretty much in the course of the tutorial, but after that you stayed 20 for the main story. Gear was also capped at a certain level, which you could get around the same time you hit 20.
After that, you advanced through the skills you acquired for your 8 slot skill bar, one of which could be an elite skill, which was a more powerful version of a regular skill, typically.
The original Guild Wars game ("Prophecies") had you level up much, much, MUCH slower, so that you only hit 20 right around the last couple missions of the game.
Partly true...You don't need RNG to be used in conjunction with levels for a single player experience. Flat and easily accountable damage is fine for something like that. And, may even be alright up to a co-op or heads-up vs.
But, when you get into fully fleshed out multi-player, you do need a playing field leveler. Otherwise you run into the issue of people within a few levels of each other not being able to be competitive with each other. This can be something like augments/upgrades for equipment. Or something like buffs from abilities and the choice being made between different skill tree paths, as well. It doesn't have to be RNG. But, RNG is a natural at doing this. Which makes it a go-to. Even when you have other things in place, you will typically also see some sort of RNG. Because, it is really good at what it does when implemented well.
And, I used the word archetypes instead of class for a reason. Because, not all games have a class system. But, even absent a class system it is usually possible to build into commonly recognized archetypes (regardless of whether a game gives it a label or not). Complete freedom does not equate to acting in a jack of all trades manner for everyone. Many people still like to specialize even when given the option to not have to do so.
Also, I don't understand what is meant by that last line.
[edit] oh you typo'ed and the way I put it was confusing. How I should have framed that was "And, he is also a nightling, which makes him adept at working in the dark." (and nightling for these purposes is something of an arbitrary race name, meant to evoke the idea that the race would be described as creature that is at its natural best during the night) sorry about that part.
@op
That would be nice, focus on rpg on not endless quest grinding.
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I think the future of MMO's will come from a very unlikely source, Rockstar games. They already played around a bit with GTA online, which is not so far from an MMO when you think about it. All they'd have to do is add ability to make your own guns, a contrived leveling mechanic, and 4 or 5 little hotkeys at the bottom for abilities that don't make any damn sense, boom a pretty sweet mmo. It has questing, full PVP, a pretty interesting non-player economy. And ironically it's more difficult then pretty much any MMO now in the fact that a ton of stuff requires grouping.
The next GTA could very likely be completely online. They'll probably have some RPG aspects like stamina for running or strength for hitting stuff and aiming, but that to me is not so much "leveling" as it is simple progression. Increase your wallet+inrcrease your ability to aim a gun. Anybody can still kill you with a headshot or run over you with a car though. Maybe they'll make a fully online version for the next Read Dead Redemption, dream come true and a huge market for that.
More importantly, they can tap into a huge market that's been largely untouched by MMOs. Forget Blizzard if that ever happened, they'd get blown out of the water.
I do agree tho that today's games are less focused on role playing, and more focused on Pavlov's dog.. You can't condition role playing, that comes naturally.. However, toss in some goals and rewards and you have a money maker game that attacks the psych of the sheep..
Massively Multiplayer Online Role-playing, "Progression" Game is how the genre has largely evolved, and the majority of the player base expects some sort of progression system to be at its core.
What the OP talks about back in the day were called Adventure games and they largely lost favor to RPGs that had progression systems, which normally included levels.
Do they always need levels? No, but they always need progression or they are of no interest to me.
In fact, I usually quit MMOs when they reach end game and the only progression is to endlessly upgrade your gear, that's not a mechanic I enjoy.
DAOC had a good end game progression system with their realm points, and EVE is the ultimate progression lovers game, 5 years of playing on 4 accounts, and still am progressing my characters in multiple ways.
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I've always said the biggest problem with MMORPGs is there is a game you have to play to get to the game you want to play.
MMORPGs should have progression. All RPGs start you out weak and through experience you get stronger. I'm not opposed to leveling per se, but I am opposed to this concept of duality. The game should not change,
For all of its grindy, cash grabbing P2W mechanics, I'll have to say, Rappelz has some excellent systems. for one thing, Back when i played it, it had already reached maturity. However, no one had ever reached level cap. Now, I'm not suggesting a game is made to be grindy for the sake of being grindy, but the point was, the game that everyone was playing a few years in had not changed at all from the 1st day they created a character. I'm sure there are better ways to accomplish this.
There are so many things already done well in this genre, it wouldn't take any kind of innovation to create the most successful MMORPG ever made. It would just take the right team with the right developers from the right publisher to do the right kind of homework and take from what is already out there that is known to work and put them all together in the right combinations.
While I agree there is potential there, Rockstar views the PC as a dying platform. They are much more invested in the console.
And yet, Why have a Dodge% when you can physically move out the way?
Why have Attack Power, When the enemy can physically evade you?
The more action you put in an rpg the less it feels like one imo.
"Action Rpgs" fight this identity crisis all the time. Wildstar focuses on Movement and dodge, What do they do? give enemies autoattacks that cannot be dodged : Crazy.
That's why its good (imo) to have specific genres that cater to people that like certain styles and systems as not to disappoint them with a hybrid that doesn't live up to expectations.
I respect that you PnP, But these computer "rpgs" have been like this since their inception even if they were or wernt based on PnP.
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You absolutely can. Back then in old UO this was exactly the case.
And do prefer that kind.
And in some way it comes down to this.
And in some games i experienced it to some degree, like in UO. All of the game was more or less available from day one, and that changed not that much.. as you could also play with more or less all player together independent how long they played that game.
To some degree that works in EvE, too. Although you need some minimum skill setup(which wasn't that much different in UO either), but in EvE you require quit some time(few weeks) to get to this, whereas in UO you could basicly accomplish it within the first few days. Similar to that was also DAoC @lvl50 with the PvP progression.. you could play with all players and against, and still progressed for a very long time.. granted in DAoC the difference between RR1 and RR9 was rather huge, however a big part was the dps increase at RR5(at that point you could finally use all of the dps of the weapons) with out that there would be still a difference, and you would still feel the very same progression, but with less power difference.
Other games were similar to different degrees.
With other words what i do prefer, and what i would like would be a very flat vertical progression with a not so huge difference between lvl1 to max lvl(or skilllevel niveau) and along with it a good junk of horizontal progression to get from time to time something new.
However.. i am a pvp player, and withit i do have different needs.. i can fully understand that a pve only player will not have that much against a strong vertical progression.. but still even then the problem of wasting content and mudflation.. well usually i point here at Raph Kosters blog entry "Do levels suck?" from back in 2005.. because basicly most of this problems and possible solutions are not really new, they are basicly as old as the genre, even back then in the MUDs time.
Skyforge will not have levels.
Skyforge has been sounding more and more promising to me (as it speaks to my inner Guild Wars 1 vet). I just can't bring myself to bank on that though.