I own 3 large farms, 3 small farms, and 1 cottage all side by side on Mermaids Island in Sanddeep, 1 cutter, and 1 Lutesong Junk 1 wagon (Naima Server).
Only thing I bought was the founders pack to get into Alpha and Headstart.
No land hacks or nothing so I guess Im one of the lucky ones?
How does it feel to "lose" AA, according to most posters you clearly have been crushed.
I'm wondering what there really is to win or lose in AA, I know the way I would play the game there isn't much.
I'm one of the few people who voted no in the poll, I find the hacking situation to be of much greater concern and what keeps me from actually playing right now.
You know what i think? if this hacking/botting/auto acquire land problem did not exist, these same people who are now qqing about pay2win would be creating threads calling AA "second coming of swg/uo/daoc" or some bullshit like that. trion did screw up with all of these problems, they should have asked XLGames to fix their damn 3rd party security system.
My only true complaint was not being able to obtain land. I didn't want to buy it off the land-hoarding hackers, so i quit. I've spent hours just running around and looking at every property looking for those that are going to expire, and making sure I was there to try and snag it. Hell, the last one I tried and failed at had a few people talking to each other in /say about which hacking program they use to grab property. So sad. Maybe things will die down in a couple months.
Joined 2004 - I can't believe I've been a MMORPG.com member for 20 years! Get off my lawn!
Ive said it before and I will say it again. Its not even alittle P2W. You people have no idea what P2W actually is, most of you who voted have probably never even played the game, and are just jumping on the nearest bandwagon. Probably because its the newest thing, since Wildstar and ESO bandwagons have moved on. I only wish I knew what the new "trendy" game to bash would be now, so I can get a head start and be cool too.
That being said, ArcheAge has many problems. The botting/hacking and "add-on" issues are way out of control. Its nearly impossible to get land thats expiring, or win an auction, unless you buy land directly from the owner and use the buyout option in the AH.
I know not many will listen to reason, or have listened in the past, because they all just want to be part of the same crowd. Someone asked early in this thread to see proof that the top players either spend thousands of dollars to "win" or if they dont. Of course we dont have any list like that. What I can tell you is what is happening on Kyrios, one of the largest servers. I am in one of the guilds with a Keep in the north. Personally, I own 4 properties (because I didnt want any more than that), but there are guildies with 10+. The top players in my guild havent spent anything beyond the founders pack (for Alpha access) and the sub. Anything we want from the cash shop we just buy with gold (labor pots, tax certs, even forgiveness pots for going pirate, getting the titles and coming back).
Most of my guild is in full GHA gear (not all heroic, but a good portion of it), we also require Tier 1 Hasla weapons, but most already have T2 or T3. All of that can be obtained from dungeons and tokens, no cash shop involvement at all, and no crafting. Right now, on the Kyrios server, two months after launch, it is still the best equipment anyone has. Nothing has been crafted or "bought" that is better, as the only thing that can be is the highest tiers of the crafted stuff, which noone has made yet. Some people have crafted weapons, a decent Epherium is about equal to T3 Hasla (needs to be Unique or higher) and maybe a Magnificent set (equal to GHA). Noone on the server has an Epherium set of armor, or a Delphinad anything. So the best crafted gear on the server right now is equal to the same stuff you get from GHA or Hasla tokens. Thats not even including the Serpentis gear, which people are now starting to get, which is even better.
So whats the point of all this. You can live in your "theoretical world" where you can pay thousands of dollars of real money to be a "credit card warrior", but thats all it is, theory. Noone has done, noone will do it, noone has that kind of expendable income, and even if they did, they havent yet, so what are they waiting for? The longer they go without doing it the more time everyone else has to "catch up", in which everyone is exactly the same at end game, because there is NOTHING you can spend real money on that you cannot get in the game for free.
TL;DR Archeage has many issues. The botting and hacking are ruining the game, and the land and auction sniper programs are ruining the economy. But, noone can or has been able to pay real money to "be the best" in the game, and those at the top are not spending real money to do it. Pretty much makes the game not pay to win, even if it is broken. Also, many people are selling land now, as it doesnt make you as much money as other things, and all those land "hoarders" are offloading it. Time to jump off this bandwagon and try another. Maybe the "Archeage is a hackers paradise" has room on it, because the "Archeage is P2W" just got wrecked.
I'm not using the term pay-to-win, I call it pay-to-not-play.
If everything in the cash shop is available to people just by playing the game, then the only reason to buy things from the cash shop is to avoid playing the game. I don't want to grind for a week or a month to get item X, I'll just buy it and skip playing the game.
Some games have cash shops with fluff items, pets and clothes that can only be gotten from the cash shop. That is fine. When you sell actual in-game items, like HP pots, weapons, mats to make stuff, etc, then it is normally called pay-2-win. Of course AA is pay to win.
Ive said it before and I will say it again. Its not even alittle P2W. You people have no idea what P2W actually is, most of you who voted have probably never even played the game, and are just jumping on the nearest bandwagon. Probably because its the newest thing, since Wildstar and ESO bandwagons have moved on. I only wish I knew what the new "trendy" game to bash would be now, so I can get a head start and be cool too.
That being said, ArcheAge has many problems. The botting/hacking and "add-on" issues are way out of control. Its nearly impossible to get land thats expiring, or win an auction, unless you buy land directly from the owner and use the buyout option in the AH.
I know not many will listen to reason, or have listened in the past, because they all just want to be part of the same crowd. Someone asked early in this thread to see proof that the top players either spend thousands of dollars to "win" or if they dont. Of course we dont have any list like that. What I can tell you is what is happening on Kyrios, one of the largest servers. I am in one of the guilds with a Keep in the north. Personally, I own 4 properties (because I didnt want any more than that), but there are guildies with 10+. The top players in my guild havent spent anything beyond the founders pack (for Alpha access) and the sub. Anything we want from the cash shop we just buy with gold (labor pots, tax certs, even forgiveness pots for going pirate, getting the titles and coming back).
Most of my guild is in full GHA gear (not all heroic, but a good portion of it), we also require Tier 1 Hasla weapons, but most already have T2 or T3. All of that can be obtained from dungeons and tokens, no cash shop involvement at all, and no crafting. Right now, on the Kyrios server, two months after launch, it is still the best equipment anyone has. Nothing has been crafted or "bought" that is better, as the only thing that can be is the highest tiers of the crafted stuff, which noone has made yet. Some people have crafted weapons, a decent Epherium is about equal to T3 Hasla (needs to be Unique or higher) and maybe a Magnificent set (equal to GHA). Noone on the server has an Epherium set of armor, or a Delphinad anything. So the best crafted gear on the server right now is equal to the same stuff you get from GHA or Hasla tokens. Thats not even including the Serpentis gear, which people are now starting to get, which is even better.
So whats the point of all this. You can live in your "theoretical world" where you can pay thousands of dollars of real money to be a "credit card warrior", but thats all it is, theory. Noone has done, noone will do it, noone has that kind of expendable income, and even if they did, they havent yet, so what are they waiting for? The longer they go without doing it the more time everyone else has to "catch up", in which everyone is exactly the same at end game, because there is NOTHING you can spend real money on that you cannot get in the game for free.
TL;DR Archeage has many issues. The botting and hacking are ruining the game, and the land and auction sniper programs are ruining the economy. But, noone can or has been able to pay real money to "be the best" in the game, and those at the top are not spending real money to do it. Pretty much makes the game not pay to win, even if it is broken. Also, many people are selling land now, as it doesnt make you as much money as other things, and all those land "hoarders" are offloading it. Time to jump off this bandwagon and try another. Maybe the "Archeage is a hackers paradise" has room on it, because the "Archeage is P2W" just got wrecked.
Pay to win has no real definition, it's one of those things that leaves a lot to interpretation. You don't view AA to be pay to win, that's fine, yet don't presume to tell others how they can use such labeling, your criteria is not a universal one.
Many view P2W to mean opening up a wallet to progress in a game or circumvent grinds. They don't use it so rigidly as to only mean winning in a literal sense.
I also find it quite humorous when folks talk about "others doing it to be cool" yet then go on to act all hipster in the know above all others, it's kind of ironic...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
To be honest, I don't know if AA is pay to win or not but what I do know is that a game being labelled pay to win by enough players drastically damages that game.
I cant mention the number of games that my friends and I have been turned off by without even trying by it being labelled pay to win.
Neverwinter is a perfect example, there is this excellent review on steam by a user where he states all the pay features and approximately how long it would take to get those things without paying.
There are others which say how you get to level 60 not needing to pay anything but then once you are committed to the game for having played so long it suddenly starts charging you huge amounts to win.
This is the typical ea game model, they sell a game at a given list price then once you are committed to it, they start releasing dlcs making all starter weapons obsolete or explaining the core storyline of the game which should be in the game anyway like how the reapers were made and who made them in mass effect.
This is why it is better to avoid pay to win games and even non pay to win games like WoW based on the opinion of others because once you have spent monthes playing the beginning part of the game, you are committed to it and if you don't pay to win at that point all the time/money you have spent is wasted.
This is a common trap of many free to play games and ea games like battlefield, cod, mass effect.
Btw, 3 of my friends and I didn't play Neverwinter even though we are all massive Neverwinter fans and had been waiting for it for years based on enough people labelling it as pay to win and I am very glad we didn't.
Lastly, I don't know if AA is pay to win but I do know that enough players have lebelled it as Pay to win like neverwinter for me not to play it or even try it. I am not going to waste monthes just to find out it is pay to win in the end.
There is no question if its P2W or not by anyone but those that somehow feel the need to make a game they like not have the label.
No F2P game with a subscription option isnt P2W. It is called freeMIUM for a reason, because it isn't really free. Toss in a game store and its full tilt P2W. No amount of white knighting is going to change it.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
Originally posted by DMKano If ArcheAge is p2w than all games are p2w. In WoW you can buy a high level character - doesn't that give you an advantage over those that didn't pay and start at level 1? Everything in AA cash shop can be bough for via gold in game - this includes cash shop credits, you can buy those with gold too.
This and because in other games people with jobs hstand no chance in Archeage gamers with jobs have the option to stay competetive against the basement dwellers.
Why are you using the word "people with jobs" than "basement dweller". If your going to use mindless phases like basement dweller, than you should of stayed with it and said, mindless poor people, working for slave wages, or something like peasants, or any other hateful word to depict a job monkey.
Who cares? With the Bots, Exploits, server crashes, land hoarding, generic questing, not being able to do things due to a lack of labor points and lack of end-game content, most people will be leaving soon anyways and AA will become a very small niche game like Darkfall.
"Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game." - SEANMCAD
Ive said it before and I will say it again. Its not even alittle P2W. You people have no idea what P2W actually is, most of you who voted have probably never even played the game, and are just jumping on the nearest bandwagon. Probably because its the newest thing, since Wildstar and ESO bandwagons have moved on. I only wish I knew what the new "trendy" game to bash would be now, so I can get a head start and be cool too.
That being said, ArcheAge has many problems. The botting/hacking and "add-on" issues are way out of control. Its nearly impossible to get land thats expiring, or win an auction, unless you buy land directly from the owner and use the buyout option in the AH.
I know not many will listen to reason, or have listened in the past, because they all just want to be part of the same crowd. Someone asked early in this thread to see proof that the top players either spend thousands of dollars to "win" or if they dont. Of course we dont have any list like that. What I can tell you is what is happening on Kyrios, one of the largest servers. I am in one of the guilds with a Keep in the north. Personally, I own 4 properties (because I didnt want any more than that), but there are guildies with 10+. The top players in my guild havent spent anything beyond the founders pack (for Alpha access) and the sub. Anything we want from the cash shop we just buy with gold (labor pots, tax certs, even forgiveness pots for going pirate, getting the titles and coming back).
Most of my guild is in full GHA gear (not all heroic, but a good portion of it), we also require Tier 1 Hasla weapons, but most already have T2 or T3. All of that can be obtained from dungeons and tokens, no cash shop involvement at all, and no crafting. Right now, on the Kyrios server, two months after launch, it is still the best equipment anyone has. Nothing has been crafted or "bought" that is better, as the only thing that can be is the highest tiers of the crafted stuff, which noone has made yet. Some people have crafted weapons, a decent Epherium is about equal to T3 Hasla (needs to be Unique or higher) and maybe a Magnificent set (equal to GHA). Noone on the server has an Epherium set of armor, or a Delphinad anything. So the best crafted gear on the server right now is equal to the same stuff you get from GHA or Hasla tokens. Thats not even including the Serpentis gear, which people are now starting to get, which is even better.
So whats the point of all this. You can live in your "theoretical world" where you can pay thousands of dollars of real money to be a "credit card warrior", but thats all it is, theory. Noone has done, noone will do it, noone has that kind of expendable income, and even if they did, they havent yet, so what are they waiting for? The longer they go without doing it the more time everyone else has to "catch up", in which everyone is exactly the same at end game, because there is NOTHING you can spend real money on that you cannot get in the game for free.
TL;DR Archeage has many issues. The botting and hacking are ruining the game, and the land and auction sniper programs are ruining the economy. But, noone can or has been able to pay real money to "be the best" in the game, and those at the top are not spending real money to do it. Pretty much makes the game not pay to win, even if it is broken. Also, many people are selling land now, as it doesnt make you as much money as other things, and all those land "hoarders" are offloading it. Time to jump off this bandwagon and try another. Maybe the "Archeage is a hackers paradise" has room on it, because the "Archeage is P2W" just got wrecked.
This made me chuckle.
Friend of mine in my guild dropped a few thousand on AA early on. Granted, he does play the game a lot and plays it smart, but with his early capital he got so far ahead of the average player, he is now full T3 (every slot). He walks into the arena and KoonCoons people while chuckling about it in TS. If we go out pirating he ravages people while not even being very good at pvp. In every aspect of the game he is winning, and he does it because he payed RL money.
Friend of mine in my guild dropped a few thousand on AA early on. Granted, he does play the game a lot and plays it smart, but with his early capital he got so far ahead of the average player, he is now full T3 (every slot). He walks into the arena and KoonCoons people while chuckling about it in TS. If we go out pirating he ravages people while not even being very good at pvp. In every aspect of the game he is winning, and he does it because he payed RL money.
Let me amuse myself for a moment predicting how wallet warrior white knights will spin this one:
But if enough people attack him he will die, it's not a 1v1 game, so it's not pay to win!
But only a few people in the whole game probably spent thousands at this point, so it's not pay to win!
But people can run away from him instead of fighting him and can refuse to enter the arena at all, so it's not pay to win!
But there is more to do than PvP and he doesn't own all the property or the entire market and all the trade routes, so it's not pay to win!
But eventually, many months from now, perhaps before new gear is released or the servers shut down, everyone will be able to grind long enough to get everything this guy has now without spending what he spent, so it's not pay to win!
There, do I have it covered, or did I miss one?
(Edit - formatting)
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
Originally posted by Stevon What an idiotic thread this is. Of course it's fucking play to win. Everyone with half a brain knows this.
Apparently we have a few half brained people posting in this thread then lol. I never had a good feeling for AA before it even launched. After hearing about labor points I pretty much wrote off this mmo. It is bleeding people exactly as I expected it to lol.
Friend of mine in my guild dropped a few thousand on AA early on. Granted, he does play the game a lot and plays it smart, but with his early capital he got so far ahead of the average player, he is now full T3 (every slot). He walks into the arena and KoonCoons people while chuckling about it in TS. If we go out pirating he ravages people while not even being very good at pvp. In every aspect of the game he is winning, and he does it because he payed RL money.
What's T3 gear ....Why wouldn't he have all T4 gear ?
Since gold and cash shop items are required for regarding armor whch someone has calculated will cost 2.5million per piece average ( Heroic grade armor )
46-88k labor a month with just patron ( not using worker pots )
Even if you get 1 gold per labor point you only get 88k gold a month .
Some whale comes along and pays $100k and can buy enough gold and credits to regrade as much as he can afford.
The more you pay the more powerful your items can become .
2.5 million gold and there are 7 armor pieces I think that's 17.5 million gold
87,500 APEX to sell lol at 200g each $10 each or $875,000
But wait this game isn't pay to win right ?
SOLUTION!!!! SEE I HAVE SOLUTION . Make REGRADE cost Labor . That will cap out how many regrades you can do because Labor will be the main gating system not how much $$ you have
It's about the reality of ArcheAge. What's really going on in the game? Who are the players who are dominating everything? Who are the most accomplished players. Who owns the most land? Who has the most gold? And yes, who has the best gear? An then of course, How did they get it?
If the top players of AA got where they are due to RMT, then the game is P2W. If there are enough accomplished patrons at the top of the food chain who did not spend much, then that is the best argument for AA not being P2W. But unfortunately, this is very difficult to tell.
It would be interesting the see a breakdown of the top 100 most accomplished players in AA. And a list of the top 100 biggest spenders in AA. If the lists contain the same names, then you have your answer. But no one outside of Trio has access to such a list.
Almost had me believing this post ....until the part about "no one outside of Trio has access to this list " and then it clicked on me again just like every other mmo since the start of the gender ... I'll bet Trion's 100 biggest spenders list in no way reflects the true 100 biggest spenders list .
Folks tossing around p2w slogans are living in glass houses because someone has paid cash to beat you in every game played so far ....I'd be a lot less worried about a cash shop and AA then gold sellers and buyers everywhere else .
It's about the reality of ArcheAge. What's really going on in the game? Who are the players who are dominating everything? Who are the most accomplished players. Who owns the most land? Who has the most gold? And yes, who has the best gear? An then of course, How did they get it?
If the top players of AA got where they are due to RMT, then the game is P2W. If there are enough accomplished patrons at the top of the food chain who did not spend much, then that is the best argument for AA not being P2W. But unfortunately, this is very difficult to tell.
It would be interesting the see a breakdown of the top 100 most accomplished players in AA. And a list of the top 100 biggest spenders in AA. If the lists contain the same names, then you have your answer. But no one outside of Trio has access to such a list.
Almost had me believing this post ....until the part about "no one outside of Trio has access to this list " and then it clicked on me again just like every other mmo since the start of the gender ... I'll bet Trion's 100 biggest spenders list in no way reflects the true 100 biggest spenders list .
Folks tossing around p2w slogans are living in glass houses because someone has paid cash to beat you in every game played so far ....I'd be a lot less worried about a cash shop and AA then gold sellers and buyers everywhere else .
Take WOW for example , I cant just go and spend $10k on gold and become the best PvPer in game .
In AA I can because the gear grades in AA are almost limitless . You could spend $1000 on this game and a guy with $10,000 is going to beat you .
It comes down to who has the best gear really , How do you beat someone that takes 50% less damage and does 50% more damage . Pretty hard .
It's about the reality of ArcheAge. What's really going on in the game? Who are the players who are dominating everything? Who are the most accomplished players. Who owns the most land? Who has the most gold? And yes, who has the best gear? An then of course, How did they get it?
If the top players of AA got where they are due to RMT, then the game is P2W. If there are enough accomplished patrons at the top of the food chain who did not spend much, then that is the best argument for AA not being P2W. But unfortunately, this is very difficult to tell.
It would be interesting the see a breakdown of the top 100 most accomplished players in AA. And a list of the top 100 biggest spenders in AA. If the lists contain the same names, then you have your answer. But no one outside of Trio has access to such a list.
Almost had me believing this post ....until the part about "no one outside of Trio has access to this list " and then it clicked on me again just like every other mmo since the start of the gender ... I'll bet Trion's 100 biggest spenders list in no way reflects the true 100 biggest spenders list .
Folks tossing around p2w slogans are living in glass houses because someone has paid cash to beat you in every game played so far ....I'd be a lot less worried about a cash shop and AA then gold sellers and buyers everywhere else .
It doesn't have anything to do with living in glass houses unless you believe that people don't cheat.
People spending in AA's cash shop are playing by the rules and people buying gold in games like WoW are cheating.
It's about the reality of ArcheAge. What's really going on in the game? Who are the players who are dominating everything? Who are the most accomplished players. Who owns the most land? Who has the most gold? And yes, who has the best gear? An then of course, How did they get it?
If the top players of AA got where they are due to RMT, then the game is P2W. If there are enough accomplished patrons at the top of the food chain who did not spend much, then that is the best argument for AA not being P2W. But unfortunately, this is very difficult to tell.
It would be interesting the see a breakdown of the top 100 most accomplished players in AA. And a list of the top 100 biggest spenders in AA. If the lists contain the same names, then you have your answer. But no one outside of Trio has access to such a list.
Almost had me believing this post ....until the part about "no one outside of Trio has access to this list " and then it clicked on me again just like every other mmo since the start of the gender ... I'll bet Trion's 100 biggest spenders list in no way reflects the true 100 biggest spenders list .
Folks tossing around p2w slogans are living in glass houses because someone has paid cash to beat you in every game played so far ....I'd be a lot less worried about a cash shop and AA then gold sellers and buyers everywhere else .
It doesn't have anything to do with living in glass houses unless you believe that people don't cheat.
People spending in AA's cash shop are playing by the rules and people buying gold in games like WoW are cheating.
P2W and P2CHEAT are two different things.
If you really want to talk about p2w, you have to add jealousy into the discussion. Those who can't/won't pay for an advantage can be jealous of it. Naturally, few have the balls to admit it and will fall back to "fairness" or some other construct.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
It's about the reality of ArcheAge. What's really going on in the game? Who are the players who are dominating everything? Who are the most accomplished players. Who owns the most land? Who has the most gold? And yes, who has the best gear? An then of course, How did they get it?
If the top players of AA got where they are due to RMT, then the game is P2W. If there are enough accomplished patrons at the top of the food chain who did not spend much, then that is the best argument for AA not being P2W. But unfortunately, this is very difficult to tell.
It would be interesting the see a breakdown of the top 100 most accomplished players in AA. And a list of the top 100 biggest spenders in AA. If the lists contain the same names, then you have your answer. But no one outside of Trio has access to such a list.
Almost had me believing this post ....until the part about "no one outside of Trio has access to this list " and then it clicked on me again just like every other mmo since the start of the gender ... I'll bet Trion's 100 biggest spenders list in no way reflects the true 100 biggest spenders list .
Folks tossing around p2w slogans are living in glass houses because someone has paid cash to beat you in every game played so far ....I'd be a lot less worried about a cash shop and AA then gold sellers and buyers everywhere else .
It doesn't have anything to do with living in glass houses unless you believe that people don't cheat.
People spending in AA's cash shop are playing by the rules and people buying gold in games like WoW are cheating.
P2W and P2CHEAT are two different things.
If you really want to talk about p2w, you have to add jealousy into the discussion. Those who can't/won't pay for an advantage can be jealous of it. Naturally, few have the balls to admit it and will fall back to "fairness" or some other construct.
Seriously???
Because now were getting into the realm of "P2CYOURSHRINK"
Comments
My only true complaint was not being able to obtain land. I didn't want to buy it off the land-hoarding hackers, so i quit. I've spent hours just running around and looking at every property looking for those that are going to expire, and making sure I was there to try and snag it. Hell, the last one I tried and failed at had a few people talking to each other in /say about which hacking program they use to grab property. So sad. Maybe things will die down in a couple months.
Joined 2004 - I can't believe I've been a MMORPG.com member for 20 years! Get off my lawn!
Better for who exactly? The publisher/devs ? sure..For the playerbase as a whole? That's certainly up for debate...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Ive said it before and I will say it again. Its not even alittle P2W. You people have no idea what P2W actually is, most of you who voted have probably never even played the game, and are just jumping on the nearest bandwagon. Probably because its the newest thing, since Wildstar and ESO bandwagons have moved on. I only wish I knew what the new "trendy" game to bash would be now, so I can get a head start and be cool too.
That being said, ArcheAge has many problems. The botting/hacking and "add-on" issues are way out of control. Its nearly impossible to get land thats expiring, or win an auction, unless you buy land directly from the owner and use the buyout option in the AH.
I know not many will listen to reason, or have listened in the past, because they all just want to be part of the same crowd. Someone asked early in this thread to see proof that the top players either spend thousands of dollars to "win" or if they dont. Of course we dont have any list like that. What I can tell you is what is happening on Kyrios, one of the largest servers. I am in one of the guilds with a Keep in the north. Personally, I own 4 properties (because I didnt want any more than that), but there are guildies with 10+. The top players in my guild havent spent anything beyond the founders pack (for Alpha access) and the sub. Anything we want from the cash shop we just buy with gold (labor pots, tax certs, even forgiveness pots for going pirate, getting the titles and coming back).
Most of my guild is in full GHA gear (not all heroic, but a good portion of it), we also require Tier 1 Hasla weapons, but most already have T2 or T3. All of that can be obtained from dungeons and tokens, no cash shop involvement at all, and no crafting. Right now, on the Kyrios server, two months after launch, it is still the best equipment anyone has. Nothing has been crafted or "bought" that is better, as the only thing that can be is the highest tiers of the crafted stuff, which noone has made yet. Some people have crafted weapons, a decent Epherium is about equal to T3 Hasla (needs to be Unique or higher) and maybe a Magnificent set (equal to GHA). Noone on the server has an Epherium set of armor, or a Delphinad anything. So the best crafted gear on the server right now is equal to the same stuff you get from GHA or Hasla tokens. Thats not even including the Serpentis gear, which people are now starting to get, which is even better.
So whats the point of all this. You can live in your "theoretical world" where you can pay thousands of dollars of real money to be a "credit card warrior", but thats all it is, theory. Noone has done, noone will do it, noone has that kind of expendable income, and even if they did, they havent yet, so what are they waiting for? The longer they go without doing it the more time everyone else has to "catch up", in which everyone is exactly the same at end game, because there is NOTHING you can spend real money on that you cannot get in the game for free.
TL;DR Archeage has many issues. The botting and hacking are ruining the game, and the land and auction sniper programs are ruining the economy. But, noone can or has been able to pay real money to "be the best" in the game, and those at the top are not spending real money to do it. Pretty much makes the game not pay to win, even if it is broken. Also, many people are selling land now, as it doesnt make you as much money as other things, and all those land "hoarders" are offloading it. Time to jump off this bandwagon and try another. Maybe the "Archeage is a hackers paradise" has room on it, because the "Archeage is P2W" just got wrecked.
I'm not using the term pay-to-win, I call it pay-to-not-play.
If everything in the cash shop is available to people just by playing the game, then the only reason to buy things from the cash shop is to avoid playing the game. I don't want to grind for a week or a month to get item X, I'll just buy it and skip playing the game.
Some games have cash shops with fluff items, pets and clothes that can only be gotten from the cash shop. That is fine. When you sell actual in-game items, like HP pots, weapons, mats to make stuff, etc, then it is normally called pay-2-win. Of course AA is pay to win.
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Pay to win has no real definition, it's one of those things that leaves a lot to interpretation. You don't view AA to be pay to win, that's fine, yet don't presume to tell others how they can use such labeling, your criteria is not a universal one.
Many view P2W to mean opening up a wallet to progress in a game or circumvent grinds. They don't use it so rigidly as to only mean winning in a literal sense.
I also find it quite humorous when folks talk about "others doing it to be cool" yet then go on to act all hipster in the know above all others, it's kind of ironic...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
To be honest, I don't know if AA is pay to win or not but what I do know is that a game being labelled pay to win by enough players drastically damages that game.
I cant mention the number of games that my friends and I have been turned off by without even trying by it being labelled pay to win.
Neverwinter is a perfect example, there is this excellent review on steam by a user where he states all the pay features and approximately how long it would take to get those things without paying.
There are others which say how you get to level 60 not needing to pay anything but then once you are committed to the game for having played so long it suddenly starts charging you huge amounts to win.
This is the typical ea game model, they sell a game at a given list price then once you are committed to it, they start releasing dlcs making all starter weapons obsolete or explaining the core storyline of the game which should be in the game anyway like how the reapers were made and who made them in mass effect.
This is why it is better to avoid pay to win games and even non pay to win games like WoW based on the opinion of others because once you have spent monthes playing the beginning part of the game, you are committed to it and if you don't pay to win at that point all the time/money you have spent is wasted.
This is a common trap of many free to play games and ea games like battlefield, cod, mass effect.
Btw, 3 of my friends and I didn't play Neverwinter even though we are all massive Neverwinter fans and had been waiting for it for years based on enough people labelling it as pay to win and I am very glad we didn't.
Lastly, I don't know if AA is pay to win but I do know that enough players have lebelled it as Pay to win like neverwinter for me not to play it or even try it. I am not going to waste monthes just to find out it is pay to win in the end.
Of course it's pay to win. You pay money, you get an ingame advantage. Tadaaaaaa, pay2win.
Another example: Have two guys duel, identical skill, both played for the same amount of time. One paid money, the other didn't. Who will win?
Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)
Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)
There is no question if its P2W or not by anyone but those that somehow feel the need to make a game they like not have the label.
No F2P game with a subscription option isnt P2W. It is called freeMIUM for a reason, because it isn't really free. Toss in a game store and its full tilt P2W. No amount of white knighting is going to change it.
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http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
Why are you using the word "people with jobs" than "basement dweller". If your going to use mindless phases like basement dweller, than you should of stayed with it and said, mindless poor people, working for slave wages, or something like peasants, or any other hateful word to depict a job monkey.
Who cares? With the Bots, Exploits, server crashes, land hoarding, generic questing, not being able to do things due to a lack of labor points and lack of end-game content, most people will be leaving soon anyways and AA will become a very small niche game like Darkfall.
This made me chuckle.
Friend of mine in my guild dropped a few thousand on AA early on. Granted, he does play the game a lot and plays it smart, but with his early capital he got so far ahead of the average player, he is now full T3 (every slot). He walks into the arena and KoonCoons people while chuckling about it in TS. If we go out pirating he ravages people while not even being very good at pvp. In every aspect of the game he is winning, and he does it because he payed RL money.
Let me amuse myself for a moment predicting how wallet warrior white knights will spin this one:
But if enough people attack him he will die, it's not a 1v1 game, so it's not pay to win!
But only a few people in the whole game probably spent thousands at this point, so it's not pay to win!
But people can run away from him instead of fighting him and can refuse to enter the arena at all, so it's not pay to win!
But there is more to do than PvP and he doesn't own all the property or the entire market and all the trade routes, so it's not pay to win!
But eventually, many months from now, perhaps before new gear is released or the servers shut down, everyone will be able to grind long enough to get everything this guy has now without spending what he spent, so it's not pay to win!
There, do I have it covered, or did I miss one?
(Edit - formatting)
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Apparently we have a few half brained people posting in this thread then lol. I never had a good feeling for AA before it even launched. After hearing about labor points I pretty much wrote off this mmo. It is bleeding people exactly as I expected it to lol.
What's T3 gear ....Why wouldn't he have all T4 gear ?
The P2W does not bother me as much as Trion's incompetence in managing ArcheAge.
Their failure to listen to player input and take a tougher stance against blatant hackers/exploiters is embarrassing.
P2W i can accept. There will always be someone who spends more money and time, but the problems AA is going through are inexcusable.
Since gold and cash shop items are required for regarding armor whch someone has calculated will cost 2.5million per piece average ( Heroic grade armor )
46-88k labor a month with just patron ( not using worker pots )
Even if you get 1 gold per labor point you only get 88k gold a month .
Some whale comes along and pays $100k and can buy enough gold and credits to regrade as much as he can afford.
The more you pay the more powerful your items can become .
2.5 million gold and there are 7 armor pieces I think that's 17.5 million gold
87,500 APEX to sell lol at 200g each $10 each or $875,000
But wait this game isn't pay to win right ?
SOLUTION!!!! SEE I HAVE SOLUTION . Make REGRADE cost Labor . That will cap out how many regrades you can do because Labor will be the main gating system not how much $$ you have
Almost had me believing this post ....until the part about "no one outside of Trio has access to this list " and then it clicked on me again just like every other mmo since the start of the gender ... I'll bet Trion's 100 biggest spenders list in no way reflects the true 100 biggest spenders list .
Folks tossing around p2w slogans are living in glass houses because someone has paid cash to beat you in every game played so far ....I'd be a lot less worried about a cash shop and AA then gold sellers and buyers everywhere else .
Take WOW for example , I cant just go and spend $10k on gold and become the best PvPer in game .
In AA I can because the gear grades in AA are almost limitless . You could spend $1000 on this game and a guy with $10,000 is going to beat you .
It comes down to who has the best gear really , How do you beat someone that takes 50% less damage and does 50% more damage . Pretty hard .
It doesn't have anything to do with living in glass houses unless you believe that people don't cheat.
People spending in AA's cash shop are playing by the rules and people buying gold in games like WoW are cheating.
P2W and P2CHEAT are two different things.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
If you really want to talk about p2w, you have to add jealousy into the discussion. Those who can't/won't pay for an advantage can be jealous of it. Naturally, few have the balls to admit it and will fall back to "fairness" or some other construct.
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Seriously???
Because now were getting into the realm of "P2CYOURSHRINK"
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee