It's about the reality of ArcheAge. What's really going on in the game? Who are the players who are dominating everything? Who are the most accomplished players. Who owns the most land? Who has the most gold? And yes, who has the best gear? An then of course, How did they get it?
If the top players of AA got where they are due to RMT, then the game is P2W. If there are enough accomplished patrons at the top of the food chain who did not spend much, then that is the best argument for AA not being P2W. But unfortunately, this is very difficult to tell.
It would be interesting the see a breakdown of the top 100 most accomplished players in AA. And a list of the top 100 biggest spenders in AA. If the lists contain the same names, then you have your answer. But no one outside of Trio has access to such a list.
Almost had me believing this post ....until the part about "no one outside of Trio has access to this list " and then it clicked on me again just like every other mmo since the start of the gender ... I'll bet Trion's 100 biggest spenders list in no way reflects the true 100 biggest spenders list .
Folks tossing around p2w slogans are living in glass houses because someone has paid cash to beat you in every game played so far ....I'd be a lot less worried about a cash shop and AA then gold sellers and buyers everywhere else .
Take WOW for example , I cant just go and spend $10k on gold and become the best PvPer in game .
In AA I can because the gear grades in AA are almost limitless . You could spend $1000 on this game and a guy with $10,000 is going to beat you .
It comes down to who has the best gear really , How do you beat someone that takes 50% less damage and does 50% more damage . Pretty hard .
Ahhhhh ,,,,bullshit could always buy a top level... top geared pve or arena player from the gold sellers and power levelling sites in WOW
People spending in AA's cash shop are playing by the rules and people buying gold in games like WoW are cheating.
P2W and P2CHEAT are two different things.
I sure hope you aren't trying to convince me AA's cash shop folks are anything close to the P2Cheat folks that have ruled games like WOW and her clones since 2004 ?
What matters isn't the principal of whether or not something is P2W. It's whether or not that monetization strategy, P2W or not, is hurting the game (generally in the context of the game's lifespan and player retention. Even if YOU accept whatever monetization strategy an MMO might have, it doesn't mean much if all your friends and everyone else leaves because of it, causing the game to become barren and potentially shut down)
Given the large number of people quitting AA because it "feels like a job" (you're basically a legal gold seller if you're buying cash shop items with gold in that you're buying things that cost RL $$$ using in-game gold), because APEX prices are soaring (the more aspects of a game that are monetized, the higher the demand for cash shop goods become, thus higher cash shop prices and lower value of in-game efforts if the cash shop circumvents them a la thunder trees), and because they are getting anhilated by people with tons of heavily upgraded gear via the cash shop (exploited or otherwise), I'd say that AA's monetization strategy has hurt the game considerably.
For the most part, monetization based on cosmetics doesn't hurt the game much. Archeage, however, is a good example of how even if you might consider the game not technically pay-to-win because all cash shop goods are tradeable, in the end it ends up hurting the game (by loss of player retention and game life span) regardless of whether or not it fits your definition of pay-to-win.
It's about the reality of ArcheAge. What's really going on in the game? Who are the players who are dominating everything? Who are the most accomplished players. Who owns the most land? Who has the most gold? And yes, who has the best gear? An then of course, How did they get it?
If the top players of AA got where they are due to RMT, then the game is P2W. If there are enough accomplished patrons at the top of the food chain who did not spend much, then that is the best argument for AA not being P2W. But unfortunately, this is very difficult to tell.
It would be interesting the see a breakdown of the top 100 most accomplished players in AA. And a list of the top 100 biggest spenders in AA. If the lists contain the same names, then you have your answer. But no one outside of Trio has access to such a list.
Almost had me believing this post ....until the part about "no one outside of Trio has access to this list " and then it clicked on me again just like every other mmo since the start of the gender ... I'll bet Trion's 100 biggest spenders list in no way reflects the true 100 biggest spenders list .
Folks tossing around p2w slogans are living in glass houses because someone has paid cash to beat you in every game played so far ....I'd be a lot less worried about a cash shop and AA then gold sellers and buyers everywhere else .
Take WOW for example , I cant just go and spend $10k on gold and become the best PvPer in game .
In AA I can because the gear grades in AA are almost limitless . You could spend $1000 on this game and a guy with $10,000 is going to beat you .
It comes down to who has the best gear really , How do you beat someone that takes 50% less damage and does 50% more damage . Pretty hard .
Ahhhhh ,,,,bullshit could always buy a top level... top geared pve or arena player from the gold sellers and power levelling sites in WOW
Do so at your own risk. It's against EULA in WoW. You can get prema banned. Even if you don't, You can lose that character you just bought when the original owner who ebayed it decides he wants it back claiming he hadn't been playing for years and his account was stolen when he proves he was the original owner. This has happened. Etc etc.
And then there is the whole scale of it. What percentage of AA players are cheating or paying to win vs. players in WoW who are cheating? The majority of WoW players I know don't cheat like this.
You gotta love these arguments, really. The argument for ArchAge up until recently was that it wasn't P2W it was P2Faster. But that's ArcheAge. Because you can eventually get there (No, you really can't, but that was the argument anyway) However, when it's WoW (and it's cheating, not P2W) That rule seems to go out the window because there are players who ebay accounts. Now it's P2W even though, WoW would be (if it had a cash shop like AA's) the perfect example of P2Faster since just playing the game normally will get you where you want to be and it doesn't really take long either. So which is it? When it's AA, it's not P2W but WoW is P2W? Really?
Originally posted by TheGoblinKing All F2P games are pay to win, its the entire design fo the business model and why so many people despise it and your seeing a backlash against it now.
Actually any gear based mmo is pay to win .....that's what keeps folks playing and chasing the carrot . If all gear was the same and the only difference was skill based combat 90% of the player base would quit as soon as they realized they were loser's
It's about the reality of ArcheAge. What's really going on in the game? Who are the players who are dominating everything? Who are the most accomplished players. Who owns the most land? Who has the most gold? And yes, who has the best gear? An then of course, How did they get it?
If the top players of AA got where they are due to RMT, then the game is P2W. If there are enough accomplished patrons at the top of the food chain who did not spend much, then that is the best argument for AA not being P2W. But unfortunately, this is very difficult to tell.
It would be interesting the see a breakdown of the top 100 most accomplished players in AA. And a list of the top 100 biggest spenders in AA. If the lists contain the same names, then you have your answer. But no one outside of Trio has access to such a list.
Almost had me believing this post ....until the part about "no one outside of Trio has access to this list " and then it clicked on me again just like every other mmo since the start of the gender ... I'll bet Trion's 100 biggest spenders list in no way reflects the true 100 biggest spenders list .
Folks tossing around p2w slogans are living in glass houses because someone has paid cash to beat you in every game played so far ....I'd be a lot less worried about a cash shop and AA then gold sellers and buyers everywhere else .
Take WOW for example , I cant just go and spend $10k on gold and become the best PvPer in game .
In AA I can because the gear grades in AA are almost limitless . You could spend $1000 on this game and a guy with $10,000 is going to beat you .
It comes down to who has the best gear really , How do you beat someone that takes 50% less damage and does 50% more damage . Pretty hard .
Ahhhhh ,,,,bullshit could always buy a top level... top geared pve or arena player from the gold sellers and power levelling sites in WOW
That has absolutely nothing to do with pay to win.
Blizzard wasn't selling you gold, players were and it was illegal.
F2P games its coming right out of the cash shop owned by the company running the game. Completely different.
Originally posted by TheGoblinKing All F2P games are pay to win, its the entire design fo the business model and why so many people despise it and your seeing a backlash against it now.
Actually any gear based mmo is pay to win .....that's what keeps folks playing and chasing the carrot . If all gear was the same and the only difference was skill based combat 90% of the player base would quit as soon as they realized they were loser's
Gear based progression games have absolutely nothing to do with pay to win in sub based models.
Unlike RIFT where you can literally buy the 2nd best set of pve and pvp gear right out of the cash shop.
Do so at your own risk. It's against EULA in WoW. You can get prema banned. Even if you don't, You can lose that character you just bought when the original owner who ebayed it decides he wants it back claiming he hadn't been playing for years and his account was stolen when he proves he was the original owner. This has happened. Etc etc.
And then there is the whole scale of it. What percentage of AA players are cheating or paying to win vs. players in WoW who are cheating? The majority of WoW players I know don't cheat like this.
You gotta love these arguments, really. The argument for ArchAge up until recently was that it wasn't P2W it was P2Faster. But that's ArcheAge. Because you can eventually get there (No, you really can't, but that was the argument anyway) However, when it's WoW (and it's cheating, not P2W) That rule seems to go out the window because there are players who ebay accounts. Now it's P2W even though, WoW would be (if it had a cash shop like AA's) the perfect example of P2Faster since just playing the game normally will get you where you want to be and it doesn't really take long either. So which is it? When it's AA, it's not P2W but WoW is P2W? Really?
Come on give your head a shake on this one .....the same brand of asshats that cheated in Daoc cheated in WOW and every game since .... and are the core cheaters in AA . The names may change but the nature of the beast doesn't ,looks to me like paying a monthly subscription is p2w in most of your opinions but that's another matter indeed
Do so at your own risk. It's against EULA in WoW. You can get prema banned. Even if you don't, You can lose that character you just bought when the original owner who ebayed it decides he wants it back claiming he hadn't been playing for years and his account was stolen when he proves he was the original owner. This has happened. Etc etc.
And then there is the whole scale of it. What percentage of AA players are cheating or paying to win vs. players in WoW who are cheating? The majority of WoW players I know don't cheat like this.
You gotta love these arguments, really. The argument for ArchAge up until recently was that it wasn't P2W it was P2Faster. But that's ArcheAge. Because you can eventually get there (No, you really can't, but that was the argument anyway) However, when it's WoW (and it's cheating, not P2W) That rule seems to go out the window because there are players who ebay accounts. Now it's P2W even though, WoW would be (if it had a cash shop like AA's) the perfect example of P2Faster since just playing the game normally will get you where you want to be and it doesn't really take long either. So which is it? When it's AA, it's not P2W but WoW is P2W? Really?
Come on give your head a shake on this one .....the same brand of asshats that cheated in Daoc cheated in WOW and every game since .... and are the core cheaters in AA . The names may change but the nature of the beast doesn't ,looks to me like paying a monthly subscription is p2w in most of your opinions but that's another matter indeed
That's not what I am saying. It's not that people don't P2W in WoW. Certainly, they do. But lets talk numbers. The percentage of the population in WoW who P2W is much lower than F2P games.
People spending in AA's cash shop are playing by the rules and people buying gold in games like WoW are cheating.
P2W and P2CHEAT are two different things.
I sure hope you aren't trying to convince me AA's cash shop folks are anything close to the P2Cheat folks that have ruled games like WOW and her clones since 2004 ?
No...
What I'm saying is that in AA, buying currency is not only condoned... it's working as intended. Love it or hate, it 's standard game play. Many would consider this a P2W mechanic.
In WoW, buying currency breaking the rules. Now back in the gaming of days yore, when you broke the rules in a game it was a cut and dried case of cheating.
People spending in AA's cash shop are playing by the rules and people buying gold in games like WoW are cheating.
P2W and P2CHEAT are two different things.
I sure hope you aren't trying to convince me AA's cash shop folks are anything close to the P2Cheat folks that have ruled games like WOW and her clones since 2004 ?
No...
What I'm saying is that in AA, buying currency is not only condoned... it's working as intended. Love it or hate, it 's standard game play. Many would consider this a P2W mechanic.
In WoW, buying currency breaking the rules. Now back in the gaming of days yore, when you broke the rules in a game it was a cut and dried case of cheating.
The argument appears to be that people break the rules and cheat in other games, taking over accounts where players have invested thousands of hours of actual gameplay to develop powerful characters.
And this is exactly the same as the company selling cash prizes that either directly give you such items or which are basically required to get those items - e.g. giving you resources at such a slow rate that you have to pay cash to be able to get powerful items in a reasonable period of time.
This argument doesn't even pass the laugh test. It's the equivalent of saying that some people cheat on tests, and therefore it's OK to sell "college degrees" for a cash donation without having to actually pass or take any classes.
People spending in AA's cash shop are playing by the rules and people buying gold in games like WoW are cheating.
P2W and P2CHEAT are two different things.
I sure hope you aren't trying to convince me AA's cash shop folks are anything close to the P2Cheat folks that have ruled games like WOW and her clones since 2004 ?
No...
What I'm saying is that in AA, buying currency is not only condoned... it's working as intended. Love it or hate, it 's standard game play. Many would consider this a P2W mechanic.
In WoW, buying currency breaking the rules. Now back in the gaming of days yore, when you broke the rules in a game it was a cut and dried case of cheating.
The argument appears to be that people break the rules and cheat in other games, taking over accounts where players have invested thousands of hours of actual gameplay to develop powerful characters.
And this is exactly the same as the company selling cash prizes that either directly give you such items or which are basically required to get those items - e.g. giving you resources at such a slow rate that you have to pay cash to be able to get powerful items in a reasonable period of time.
This argument doesn't even pass the laugh test. It's the equivalent of saying that some people cheat on tests, and therefore it's OK to sell "college degrees" for a cash donation without having to actually pass or take any classes.
In practice it's true that in both cases, he who pays a lot of money jumps to the front.
However, in practice, it also creates a difference between the incentives the company has in regards to the development of the game. In World of Warcraft, the fact that someone can break the ToS and buy a high level account to advance doesn't really change the company's primary step towards making bigger profit ("Make the game better so more people will play and give you money"). In Archeage, however, the fact that someone can buy from the cash shop to advance gives every incentive to the company to monetize any of the "growth" aspects of the game as possible. ("Find the sweet spot between game progression rate and real life money costs that maximizes how much income you get in total from Willing Whales * $$$ = Revenue.)
Blizzard has very little to gain by making gear progression rates so retardedly low that you'd die of old age before you get the top gear. This keeps progress flowing at a smooth and mostly equal pace for everyone and allows Blizzard to tailor the pace as they see fit to what the largest number of people would enjoy without reaching the front first. Until Blizzard monetizes this step, they will always be encouraged to keep a close eye on what pace is the most "fun" for the players without making them blow through the content "too fast". (of course, once they monetize it, they have every incentive to stop giving a crap about it. Example being buying a level 90 character, which greatly decreases their incentive to rework and improve lower level content. The upper level content beyond 90, however, Blizzard continues to have evern incentive to make as fun as possible for as many players as possible in regards to progression)
Trion, meanwhile, has everything to gain by making gear progression rates so retardedly high that you'd die of old age before you get the top gear. (and people have done the math. Yes, you can team up with your guild to put in the 1,000,000 man hours needed to make YOUR weapon, but then what about the 49 guild mates below you who helped you get there? Working together and pooling your resources so that 50 people only spend 2,000 man hours to get you your weapon might get you your weapon, but 50 people would still need around 100,000,000 man hours to get 50 people their weapons). The harder Trion makes it to get the top gear, the more people are encouraged to spend money later on to progress. All they have to do is find that sweet point ceiling that maximizes the amount of $$$ you get by Willing Whales * $$$ = Revenue. And that sweet point, as many F2P companies have found, is LUDICROUSLY HIGH. The end result is that most whales have the top gear on the server, only the most dedicated players have gear that's even remotely close, and the rest start quitting because they get sick of the slow pace of progression. This results in a game that only a very few (the whales and the super-dedicated) can enjoy, whereas the rest of the players will find the game a more and more dull grind as time goes on (which seems to be the increasing sentiment of people as more time goes by)
The same thing applies to almost every other system. Buff potions in a subscription game? A fun opportunity to introduce a new crafting system to make them or add them as a drop to monsters in certain areas to give players more variety of places to hunt. Buff potions in Archeage? KA-CHING. Mounts in subsciption games? A fun opportunity to introduce new quests and content and locations to get them. Mounts in Archeage? Normalized gliders and mounts so that the cash shop mounts are the best! Rare materials in a sub game? Scavenger hunt time for those who love that sort of thing! Thunder struck trees in Archeage? Scaveng.... nevermind, let's just make them TOO rare so that while the scavenger hunters are having a good time, no one else is because everyone needs those trees, and oh here come the rumbling saplings so now TS tree hunting isn't worth the time to the scavengers while some of the players are suddenly praising us as we go laughing all the way to the bank (the rest leaving or complaining as another aspect of the game is gutted in the name of cash)! Labor point system in a sub game? World of Warcraft lets you play as much as you want doing whatever you want. Labor point system in Archeage? Only a select few that enjoy the nonlabor activites are having fun while the majority of people find that they can't do the all the activities they want to do, all in the name of balance except that balance flies out the window when the whales can circumvent the system anyways (or profit off of anyone else buying potions from them to try to circumvent the system. Even then you're only partially circumventing it because a huge chunk of your income from using that labor is going towards buying more labor potions). Want to fish? Too bad, you already farmed today! Wanna craft? Too bad, you already delivered tradepacks today! Amazingly restrictive for a sandbox game that's supposed to be about freedom.
TL;DR:
Illegal P2W: Blizzard has every incentive to make the game as fun as possible to get as many players as possible.
Legal P2W: Trion has every incentive to make the progression ladder maximize profit, regardless of what's the most fun for the largest number of players.
R2Games' presentation pointing out that the F2P model lowers player retention and decreases game life span isn't really rocket science in this regard.
That's not what I am saying. It's not that people don't P2W in WoW. Certainly, they do. But lets talk numbers. The percentage of the population in WoW who P2W is much lower than F2P games.
imho thats not even important, wich game have more % of cheaters.
The main issue with cheaters in AA is everthing they do direct interfear with others players, in WoW not that much.
Imagine this in AA:
- Housing is instance, each player had their own field to build. No need to hack land grab.
- best gear is drop in heroic instances of 5, 10man. No need to hack ways to get gold.
- lp regen 2 per min logged on or off for patrons and no pots. no need to hack gold to buy pots
- trade runs is pure pve in instance mode. no need to hack to survive openworldpvp
- pvp is instance and all had equal gear/lvl. no need to hack to "win" pvp
- etc, etc
In this scenario cheaters werent such big issue in AA, but ofc AA wasnt that special game to me.
When we are in a more open world game, cheaters are allways a huge problem, allways. And Trion/XLGames are not doing enouph to minimize the damage they do in-game.
Originally posted by ohioastro It's the equivalent of saying that some people cheat on tests, and therefore it's OK to sell "college degrees" for a cash donation without having to actually pass or take any classes.
Fail logic is fail.
MMOs unlike collage exams do not have general rules that all exams need to follow.
2 different things.
If you want an analogy, you can compare football and rugby - some actions allowed in rugby could be viewed as "cheating" in football.
That's not what I am saying. It's not that people don't P2W in WoW. Certainly, they do. But lets talk numbers. The percentage of the population in WoW who P2W is much lower than F2P games.
imho thats not even important, wich game have more % of cheaters.
The main issue with cheaters in AA is everthing they do direct interfear with others players, in WoW not that much.
Imagine this in AA:
- Housing is instance, each player had their own field to build. No need to hack land grab.
- best gear is drop in heroic instances of 5, 10man. No need to hack ways to get gold.
- lp regen 2 per min logged on or off for patrons and no pots. no need to hack gold to buy pots
- trade runs is pure pve in instance mode. no need to hack to survive openworldpvp
- pvp is instance and all had equal gear/lvl. no need to hack to "win" pvp
- etc, etc
In this scenario cheaters werent such big issue in AA, but ofc AA wasnt that special game to me.
When we are in a more open world game, cheaters are allways a huge problem, allways. And Trion/XLGames are not doing enouph to minimize the damage they do in-game.
I agree with you, but they are 2 different points. There is the ratio of cheaters in any given game then there is the impact that those cheaters can have on the game. I was only addressing the one issue in response to another post.
In all honesty, the entire argument to compare P2W in AA to P2W in WoW is a ridiculous one. There is no comparison. When a new or returning player joins or re-joins WoW, there is virtually no impact on his/her game play by those who are using RMT (cheating or not) This is not the case with AA. Someone who is going to start playing or returning after time away has much to consider when it comes to how RMT and cheating has and will impact their game.
When I see someone saying if AA is P2W, then WoW is P2W too, it's just an attempt to deflect the issue of what's wrong with AA. These 2 games are on entirely different levels when it comes to the average player's experience and what they have to deal with from cheaters and RMTers.
I agree with you, but they are 2 different points. There is the ratio of cheaters in any given game then there is the impact that those cheaters can have on the game. I was only addressing the one issue in response to another post.
In all honesty, the entire argument to compare P2W in AA to P2W in WoW is a ridiculous one. There is no comparison. When a new or returning player joins or re-joins WoW, there is virtually no impact on his/her game play by those who are using RMT (cheating or not) This is not the case with AA. Someone who is going to start playing or returning after time away has much to consider when it comes to how RMT and cheating has and will impact their game.
When I see someone saying if AA is P2W, then WoW is P2W too, it's just an attempt to deflect the issue of what's wrong with AA. These 2 games are on entirely different levels when it comes to the average player's experience and what they have to deal with from cheaters and RMTers.
Just out of curiosity .... How much AA have you actually experienced GeezerGamer ? I mean all these posts you have made are backed up by actual personal experience aren't they?
I agree with you, but they are 2 different points. There is the ratio of cheaters in any given game then there is the impact that those cheaters can have on the game. I was only addressing the one issue in response to another post.
In all honesty, the entire argument to compare P2W in AA to P2W in WoW is a ridiculous one. There is no comparison. When a new or returning player joins or re-joins WoW, there is virtually no impact on his/her game play by those who are using RMT (cheating or not) This is not the case with AA. Someone who is going to start playing or returning after time away has much to consider when it comes to how RMT and cheating has and will impact their game.
When I see someone saying if AA is P2W, then WoW is P2W too, it's just an attempt to deflect the issue of what's wrong with AA. These 2 games are on entirely different levels when it comes to the average player's experience and what they have to deal with from cheaters and RMTers.
Yeah, my replie was only about comparing the number of cheaters in one game and another. I dint want to enter in the P2W part
I cant say the way you see things are wrong, because the P2W is allways a little subjective insted of been a fact like some users want to state.
I usually only call P2W to a game if the only way to have / reach something is paying real money more then monthly fee.
Example: i only have a farm cart yet because i couldnt spend gold in upgrade it, and theres 2 upgrades. One of my friends just bought the credits and get the farm hauler in the 1st mins it was available. I keep spend a few days making gold so i might upgrade any time. So yeah, have a farm hauler is win in this case so its p2w / p2go faster, he pays and wins / go faster, i dont pay i lose / go slower, but still i dont mind, i will reach there anyway, just take more time. Some people call it p2advance faster and is not that wrong. For me the real P2W was if my friend could had the farm hauler because he pays and was impossible to me have it because i didnt pay.
Ofc theres a problem here, the last upgrade only exist in CS so by mine own definition the hauler is P2W, there isnt other way to obtain and we are not talking about fluff stuff, for me to have it whithout spend real money someone have to buy it and sell it to me for gold. Didnt like this but can live with it.
Anyway, the p2w/p2go faster dont bother me much in AA because i can still full enjoy the game without pay (only pay the monhtly fee), but still its necessary somone spend money in CS and sell stuff in AH like the hauler upgrade. So its P2W because have RMT but RMT allow others play whithout spend any money and they still can win, alot of subjectivity around the definition P2W imo.
Now what can ruin my experience in AA is the hackers and cheaters, that can really interfear in my gameplay.
I agree with you, but they are 2 different points. There is the ratio of cheaters in any given game then there is the impact that those cheaters can have on the game. I was only addressing the one issue in response to another post.
In all honesty, the entire argument to compare P2W in AA to P2W in WoW is a ridiculous one. There is no comparison. When a new or returning player joins or re-joins WoW, there is virtually no impact on his/her game play by those who are using RMT (cheating or not) This is not the case with AA. Someone who is going to start playing or returning after time away has much to consider when it comes to how RMT and cheating has and will impact their game.
When I see someone saying if AA is P2W, then WoW is P2W too, it's just an attempt to deflect the issue of what's wrong with AA. These 2 games are on entirely different levels when it comes to the average player's experience and what they have to deal with from cheaters and RMTers.
Just out of curiosity .... How much AA have you actually experienced GeezerGamer ? I mean all these posts you have made are backed up by actual personal experience aren't they?
Nope, none, But I'm willing to hear you point out exactly where the argument comparing WoW and AA player experiences is valid......where they are similar based on WoW being "P2W".
Thing is....when something is true, it doesn't matter who speaks it because it is what it is regardless of who said it. Of course, if in my lack of experience, I say something that isn't a truth, you should very easily be able to counter the false statements with the truth. However, as soon as I see someone say something like you need to have experience to speak the truth, yet can't offer a valid counter of their own, I already know they don't have an argument based on merit and so must use an Ad-Hom to try to discredit the other. But in the end, even if you discredit me as a person, what I have said about the differences in player experiences between AA and WoW will still remain true won't it?
Also, Exactly what is it about AA that is so unique and innovative that my 15 years of online gaming cannot give me an accurate frame of reference to understand how AA works at an overall high level? I am fairly certain there aren't too many people in this forum who would log into AA for teh 1st time and be stumped by its complexities.
Comments
Ahhhhh ,,,,bullshit could always buy a top level... top geared pve or arena player from the gold sellers and power levelling sites in WOW
I sure hope you aren't trying to convince me AA's cash shop folks are anything close to the P2Cheat folks that have ruled games like WOW and her clones since 2004 ?
What matters isn't the principal of whether or not something is P2W. It's whether or not that monetization strategy, P2W or not, is hurting the game (generally in the context of the game's lifespan and player retention. Even if YOU accept whatever monetization strategy an MMO might have, it doesn't mean much if all your friends and everyone else leaves because of it, causing the game to become barren and potentially shut down)
Given the large number of people quitting AA because it "feels like a job" (you're basically a legal gold seller if you're buying cash shop items with gold in that you're buying things that cost RL $$$ using in-game gold), because APEX prices are soaring (the more aspects of a game that are monetized, the higher the demand for cash shop goods become, thus higher cash shop prices and lower value of in-game efforts if the cash shop circumvents them a la thunder trees), and because they are getting anhilated by people with tons of heavily upgraded gear via the cash shop (exploited or otherwise), I'd say that AA's monetization strategy has hurt the game considerably.
For the most part, monetization based on cosmetics doesn't hurt the game much. Archeage, however, is a good example of how even if you might consider the game not technically pay-to-win because all cash shop goods are tradeable, in the end it ends up hurting the game (by loss of player retention and game life span) regardless of whether or not it fits your definition of pay-to-win.
Do so at your own risk. It's against EULA in WoW. You can get prema banned. Even if you don't, You can lose that character you just bought when the original owner who ebayed it decides he wants it back claiming he hadn't been playing for years and his account was stolen when he proves he was the original owner. This has happened. Etc etc.
And then there is the whole scale of it. What percentage of AA players are cheating or paying to win vs. players in WoW who are cheating? The majority of WoW players I know don't cheat like this.
You gotta love these arguments, really. The argument for ArchAge up until recently was that it wasn't P2W it was P2Faster. But that's ArcheAge. Because you can eventually get there (No, you really can't, but that was the argument anyway) However, when it's WoW (and it's cheating, not P2W) That rule seems to go out the window because there are players who ebay accounts. Now it's P2W even though, WoW would be (if it had a cash shop like AA's) the perfect example of P2Faster since just playing the game normally will get you where you want to be and it doesn't really take long either. So which is it? When it's AA, it's not P2W but WoW is P2W? Really?
Actually any gear based mmo is pay to win .....that's what keeps folks playing and chasing the carrot . If all gear was the same and the only difference was skill based combat 90% of the player base would quit as soon as they realized they were loser's
That has absolutely nothing to do with pay to win.
Blizzard wasn't selling you gold, players were and it was illegal.
F2P games its coming right out of the cash shop owned by the company running the game. Completely different.
Gear based progression games have absolutely nothing to do with pay to win in sub based models.
Unlike RIFT where you can literally buy the 2nd best set of pve and pvp gear right out of the cash shop.
Come on give your head a shake on this one .....the same brand of asshats that cheated in Daoc cheated in WOW and every game since .... and are the core cheaters in AA . The names may change but the nature of the beast doesn't ,looks to me like paying a monthly subscription is p2w in most of your opinions but that's another matter indeed
Asking about P2W in game 'X'. That's like asking the question "Why Do Kids Love the Taste of Cinnamon Toast Crunch?"
I don't eat cereal...
It was me.
Gotta vote for someone, it may as well be you.
That's not what I am saying. It's not that people don't P2W in WoW. Certainly, they do. But lets talk numbers. The percentage of the population in WoW who P2W is much lower than F2P games.
No...
What I'm saying is that in AA, buying currency is not only condoned... it's working as intended. Love it or hate, it 's standard game play. Many would consider this a P2W mechanic.
In WoW, buying currency breaking the rules. Now back in the gaming of days yore, when you broke the rules in a game it was a cut and dried case of cheating.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
There is nothing like P2W...it's empty term.
The argument appears to be that people break the rules and cheat in other games, taking over accounts where players have invested thousands of hours of actual gameplay to develop powerful characters.
And this is exactly the same as the company selling cash prizes that either directly give you such items or which are basically required to get those items - e.g. giving you resources at such a slow rate that you have to pay cash to be able to get powerful items in a reasonable period of time.
This argument doesn't even pass the laugh test. It's the equivalent of saying that some people cheat on tests, and therefore it's OK to sell "college degrees" for a cash donation without having to actually pass or take any classes.
In practice it's true that in both cases, he who pays a lot of money jumps to the front.
However, in practice, it also creates a difference between the incentives the company has in regards to the development of the game. In World of Warcraft, the fact that someone can break the ToS and buy a high level account to advance doesn't really change the company's primary step towards making bigger profit ("Make the game better so more people will play and give you money"). In Archeage, however, the fact that someone can buy from the cash shop to advance gives every incentive to the company to monetize any of the "growth" aspects of the game as possible. ("Find the sweet spot between game progression rate and real life money costs that maximizes how much income you get in total from Willing Whales * $$$ = Revenue.)
Blizzard has very little to gain by making gear progression rates so retardedly low that you'd die of old age before you get the top gear. This keeps progress flowing at a smooth and mostly equal pace for everyone and allows Blizzard to tailor the pace as they see fit to what the largest number of people would enjoy without reaching the front first. Until Blizzard monetizes this step, they will always be encouraged to keep a close eye on what pace is the most "fun" for the players without making them blow through the content "too fast". (of course, once they monetize it, they have every incentive to stop giving a crap about it. Example being buying a level 90 character, which greatly decreases their incentive to rework and improve lower level content. The upper level content beyond 90, however, Blizzard continues to have evern incentive to make as fun as possible for as many players as possible in regards to progression)
Trion, meanwhile, has everything to gain by making gear progression rates so retardedly high that you'd die of old age before you get the top gear. (and people have done the math. Yes, you can team up with your guild to put in the 1,000,000 man hours needed to make YOUR weapon, but then what about the 49 guild mates below you who helped you get there? Working together and pooling your resources so that 50 people only spend 2,000 man hours to get you your weapon might get you your weapon, but 50 people would still need around 100,000,000 man hours to get 50 people their weapons). The harder Trion makes it to get the top gear, the more people are encouraged to spend money later on to progress. All they have to do is find that sweet point ceiling that maximizes the amount of $$$ you get by Willing Whales * $$$ = Revenue. And that sweet point, as many F2P companies have found, is LUDICROUSLY HIGH. The end result is that most whales have the top gear on the server, only the most dedicated players have gear that's even remotely close, and the rest start quitting because they get sick of the slow pace of progression. This results in a game that only a very few (the whales and the super-dedicated) can enjoy, whereas the rest of the players will find the game a more and more dull grind as time goes on (which seems to be the increasing sentiment of people as more time goes by)
The same thing applies to almost every other system. Buff potions in a subscription game? A fun opportunity to introduce a new crafting system to make them or add them as a drop to monsters in certain areas to give players more variety of places to hunt. Buff potions in Archeage? KA-CHING. Mounts in subsciption games? A fun opportunity to introduce new quests and content and locations to get them. Mounts in Archeage? Normalized gliders and mounts so that the cash shop mounts are the best! Rare materials in a sub game? Scavenger hunt time for those who love that sort of thing! Thunder struck trees in Archeage? Scaveng.... nevermind, let's just make them TOO rare so that while the scavenger hunters are having a good time, no one else is because everyone needs those trees, and oh here come the rumbling saplings so now TS tree hunting isn't worth the time to the scavengers while some of the players are suddenly praising us as we go laughing all the way to the bank (the rest leaving or complaining as another aspect of the game is gutted in the name of cash)! Labor point system in a sub game? World of Warcraft lets you play as much as you want doing whatever you want. Labor point system in Archeage? Only a select few that enjoy the nonlabor activites are having fun while the majority of people find that they can't do the all the activities they want to do, all in the name of balance except that balance flies out the window when the whales can circumvent the system anyways (or profit off of anyone else buying potions from them to try to circumvent the system. Even then you're only partially circumventing it because a huge chunk of your income from using that labor is going towards buying more labor potions). Want to fish? Too bad, you already farmed today! Wanna craft? Too bad, you already delivered tradepacks today! Amazingly restrictive for a sandbox game that's supposed to be about freedom.
TL;DR:
Illegal P2W: Blizzard has every incentive to make the game as fun as possible to get as many players as possible.
Legal P2W: Trion has every incentive to make the progression ladder maximize profit, regardless of what's the most fun for the largest number of players.
R2Games' presentation pointing out that the F2P model lowers player retention and decreases game life span isn't really rocket science in this regard.
imho thats not even important, wich game have more % of cheaters.
The main issue with cheaters in AA is everthing they do direct interfear with others players, in WoW not that much.
Imagine this in AA:
- Housing is instance, each player had their own field to build. No need to hack land grab.
- best gear is drop in heroic instances of 5, 10man. No need to hack ways to get gold.
- lp regen 2 per min logged on or off for patrons and no pots. no need to hack gold to buy pots
- trade runs is pure pve in instance mode. no need to hack to survive openworldpvp
- pvp is instance and all had equal gear/lvl. no need to hack to "win" pvp
- etc, etc
In this scenario cheaters werent such big issue in AA, but ofc AA wasnt that special game to me.
When we are in a more open world game, cheaters are allways a huge problem, allways. And Trion/XLGames are not doing enouph to minimize the damage they do in-game.
Fail logic is fail.
MMOs unlike collage exams do not have general rules that all exams need to follow.
2 different things.
If you want an analogy, you can compare football and rugby - some actions allowed in rugby could be viewed as "cheating" in football.
I agree with you, but they are 2 different points. There is the ratio of cheaters in any given game then there is the impact that those cheaters can have on the game. I was only addressing the one issue in response to another post.
In all honesty, the entire argument to compare P2W in AA to P2W in WoW is a ridiculous one. There is no comparison. When a new or returning player joins or re-joins WoW, there is virtually no impact on his/her game play by those who are using RMT (cheating or not) This is not the case with AA. Someone who is going to start playing or returning after time away has much to consider when it comes to how RMT and cheating has and will impact their game.
When I see someone saying if AA is P2W, then WoW is P2W too, it's just an attempt to deflect the issue of what's wrong with AA. These 2 games are on entirely different levels when it comes to the average player's experience and what they have to deal with from cheaters and RMTers.
Just out of curiosity .... How much AA have you actually experienced GeezerGamer ? I mean all these posts you have made are backed up by actual personal experience aren't they?
Yeah, my replie was only about comparing the number of cheaters in one game and another. I dint want to enter in the P2W part
I cant say the way you see things are wrong, because the P2W is allways a little subjective insted of been a fact like some users want to state.
I usually only call P2W to a game if the only way to have / reach something is paying real money more then monthly fee.
Example: i only have a farm cart yet because i couldnt spend gold in upgrade it, and theres 2 upgrades. One of my friends just bought the credits and get the farm hauler in the 1st mins it was available. I keep spend a few days making gold so i might upgrade any time. So yeah, have a farm hauler is win in this case so its p2w / p2go faster, he pays and wins / go faster, i dont pay i lose / go slower, but still i dont mind, i will reach there anyway, just take more time. Some people call it p2advance faster and is not that wrong. For me the real P2W was if my friend could had the farm hauler because he pays and was impossible to me have it because i didnt pay.
Ofc theres a problem here, the last upgrade only exist in CS so by mine own definition the hauler is P2W, there isnt other way to obtain and we are not talking about fluff stuff, for me to have it whithout spend real money someone have to buy it and sell it to me for gold. Didnt like this but can live with it.
Anyway, the p2w/p2go faster dont bother me much in AA because i can still full enjoy the game without pay (only pay the monhtly fee), but still its necessary somone spend money in CS and sell stuff in AH like the hauler upgrade. So its P2W because have RMT but RMT allow others play whithout spend any money and they still can win, alot of subjectivity around the definition P2W imo.
Now what can ruin my experience in AA is the hackers and cheaters, that can really interfear in my gameplay.
Nope, none, But I'm willing to hear you point out exactly where the argument comparing WoW and AA player experiences is valid......where they are similar based on WoW being "P2W".
Thing is....when something is true, it doesn't matter who speaks it because it is what it is regardless of who said it. Of course, if in my lack of experience, I say something that isn't a truth, you should very easily be able to counter the false statements with the truth. However, as soon as I see someone say something like you need to have experience to speak the truth, yet can't offer a valid counter of their own, I already know they don't have an argument based on merit and so must use an Ad-Hom to try to discredit the other. But in the end, even if you discredit me as a person, what I have said about the differences in player experiences between AA and WoW will still remain true won't it?
Also, Exactly what is it about AA that is so unique and innovative that my 15 years of online gaming cannot give me an accurate frame of reference to understand how AA works at an overall high level? I am fairly certain there aren't too many people in this forum who would log into AA for teh 1st time and be stumped by its complexities.
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
Because the definition of "P2W" is not a fact but more related to each user perpective, just like the "grind".
Imo most around here from both sides are right.