Raph Koster blog post about WoW's effect on the genre

Forgrimm

Thought this was a pretty good read. Raph Koster from UO, SWG, EQ2 talks about how WoW changed the entire mmo genre. http://www.raphkoster.com/2014/11/21/ten-years-of-world-of-warcraft/#more-21631

Here's a paragraph from the blog post, though it's worth reading the entire post IMO:

"And the game that was once called, by me and many others, "the least social mmo on the market" is now the virtual home away from home for millions, as network effects, familiarity, and its ongoing dedication to a great user experience above all makes it makes the place we always return to. It is the genre king, and likely will never be toppled by a game like it, as long as investment in it continues. We likely will not see true reinvention come to the space until there are massive changes in content delivery, such as near-unlimited cloud server power, or virtual reality displays, that both permit and force truly different experiences to be created."

cheyane

I thought I read a thread where he himself posted it but I cannot find it now. I must be jonesing.

 

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/6515834/10-years-of-WoW.html#6515834

 

Edit  : found it

Forgrimm

Originally posted by cheyane

I thought I read a thread where he himself posted it but I cannot find it now. I must be jonesing.

 

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/6515834/10-years-of-WoW.html#6515834

 

Edit  : found it

Oh cool, I didn't know that he posts here, and I hadn't even checked the pub forum. Thanks for the heads up. Mods, feel free to delete this thread.

Kaneth

The final paragraph I found interesting,

"It’s just that no one calls them MMOs anymore. That title is reserved for World of Warcraft, and those largely similar games that strive to topple it from its seat. Its influence is such that it now defines the genre it refined. It is the best Diku ever made; the best combat MMO ever made; the thing to which everything like it will ever after be compared. World of Warcraft effectively made MMOs perfect, and in the process, it killed them."

I think his take that WoW killed mmos is a bit dramatic. While there is ample evidence to support his statement, I would still argue that there is plenty of life in the mmo yet. The problem isn't that WoW took the world by storm, it's that other developers/publisher/investors can't seem to get it through their skulls that you're not going to beat WoW at their own game.

ANet, to their credit, tried to make something different, but they've made a considerable number of questionable decisions in both content delivery and further focus on their gem store as opposed to releasing expansion packs. GW1 is considered to be extremely successful. The item store wasn't overdone and they released plenty of expansion style standalone games to support themselves. For whatever reason, ANet and NCSoft didn't feel that was appropriate for GW2 and I feel the game is suffering for it.

Plenty of other developers have tried some different ideas, but either failed to deliver or didn't deviate enough from what is now known as the WoW model.

Someone out there is going to get it. They're not going to attempt to directly compete with WoW and just make something that they find fun, and build it with blood, sweat, tears and love. The first someone to do that will make millions.

GeezerGamer

Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

Raph, as much as I like his work, is just like many other "oldtimers"... stuck in nostalgia.

Yeah, sucks for you guys... but WoW did things right that so many of you did wrong.

They must be doing something right.

Hyanmen

Originally posted by Kaneth

The final paragraph I found interesting,

"It’s just that no one calls them MMOs anymore. That title is reserved for World of Warcraft, and those largely similar games that strive to topple it from its seat. Its influence is such that it now defines the genre it refined. It is the best Diku ever made; the best combat MMO ever made; the thing to which everything like it will ever after be compared. World of Warcraft effectively made MMOs perfect, and in the process, it killed them."

I think his take that WoW killed mmos is a bit dramatic. While there is ample evidence to support his statement, I would still argue that there is plenty of life in the mmo yet. The problem isn't that WoW took the world by storm, it's that other developers/publisher/investors can't seem to get it through their skulls that you're not going to beat WoW at their own game.

ANet, to their credit, tried to make something different, but they've made a considerable number of questionable decisions in both content delivery and further focus on their gem store as opposed to releasing expansion packs. GW1 is considered to be extremely successful. The item store wasn't overdone and they released plenty of expansion style standalone games to support themselves. For whatever reason, ANet and NCSoft didn't feel that was appropriate for GW2 and I feel the game is suffering for it.

Plenty of other developers have tried some different ideas, but either failed to deliver or didn't deviate enough from what is now known as the WoW model.

Someone out there is going to get it. They're not going to attempt to directly compete with WoW and just make something that they find fun, and build it with blood, sweat, tears and love. The first someone to do that will make millions.

Different =/= better. There is nothing to "get". The answers are out there. Devs can do nothing but follow the roads already paved for them because history has proven them to be the most effective. In 2014 making a different game means making an inferior game. Details aside of course.

People can deny it but that won't change the fact.

bcbully

nvm

Ket_Viliano

Such a great user experience that quest givers are being killed on PvE servers before the noobs can do their quests. Lol.

 

www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/423991/page/1

 

Such Failcraft, the mind boggles. Why do people play this game?

Herzy

Something or someone always has to be the black sheep. WoW, the black sheep. The one game that brought the genre out of obscurity. A genre not reserved any more for the nerdiest of nerds. Poopsocks banished to the past.

 

"World of Warcrafteffectively made MMOs perfect, and in the process, it killed them."

I could not roll my eyes any harder.

Bladestrom

'World of Warcraft effectively made MMOs perfect, and in the process, it killed them'.  See Stev Jobs video as well, he talks about a very similar process, where the weak take over as manager's and the creative are pushed out - all because of greed.  MMO's need to diversify now, and because of Wildstar they will.  WOW is caught in a horrible cul-de-sac where it wont invest in evolution because it makes too much money for its shareholders - stagnation/feeding on the playerrbase > than investment, that's a fact in accountant eyes.

Ket_Viliano

Originally posted by Bladestrom
'World of Warcraft effectively made MMOs perfect, and in the process, it killed them'.  See Stev Jobs video as well, he talks about a very similar process, where the weak take over as manager's and the creative are pushed out - all because of greed.  MMO's need to diversify now, and because of Wildstar they will.  WOW is caught in a horrible cul-de-sac where it wont invest in evolution because it makes too much money for its shareholders - stagnation/feeding on the playerrbase > than investment, that's a fact in accountant eyes.

Link to Steve Jobs vid plz?

 

And, I thought they would have learned from WAR. Obviously not, given Wildstar.

Arglebargle

Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

Raph, as much as I like his work, is just like many other "oldtimers"... stuck in nostalgia.

Yeah, sucks for you guys... but WoW did things right that so many of you did wrong.

Koster has set himself up as a grand  theoretician of MMOs and online gaming.   But its been a long, long time since he produced anything game viable.   I know my friends on the SWG team were not enthused with his concepts, even then.   And the many, many bugs and design flaws in it cannot be dismissed so easily.  But it is definitely less trouble to theorize online than it is to manage a team and deliver a game.

 

WoW's big because it's big.   Like Ebay, it has the long term name recognition, the built in user base, the player history.  And It certainly must do some things very well.  But I don't just watch one horror movie and then dismiss the rest of the genre.  Or read one fantasy novel and then quit reading.   There's room for more than one riff on the concepts.  They do need to be done well, if you want to support your team and make a profit.

Archlyte

Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

Raph, as much as I like his work, is just like many other "oldtimers"... stuck in nostalgia.

Yeah, sucks for you guys... but WoW did things right that so many of you did wrong.

 For those who really only wanted one thing from MMOs the WoW wave brought them the simple product that sufficed. The older games that were more about divergent activities and socially exploring a world were killed in the name of mammon and Joe Casual.

Go ahead and be a fucking jerk about it, it's one of the perks of being in the mass audience.

Bladestrom

Steve Jobs has given a lot of brilliant talks that cuts to the heart of the Corporate mediocrity(aka greed )Versus creativity problem, here is one:

 

 

laserit

Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

Raph, as much as I like his work, is just like many other "oldtimers"... stuck in nostalgia.

Yeah, sucks for you guys... but WoW did things right that so many of you did wrong.

There is a reason why Jean_Luc Picard is but a forgotten memory and Captain Kirk will live forever 

 

Give credit where credit is due:

 

They were the innovators, without the things that they did there wouldn't have been a WoW.

Bladestrom

lol indeed ^^ and then there was voyager and deep space 9 'expansions'.

Ket_Viliano

Originally posted by Bladestrom
lol indeed ^^ and then there was voyager and deep space 9 'expansions'.

Kirk was great,

Kahn was great,

Picard was great,

Voyager and DS9 were crap cash grabs.

If there was any greatness left, they would do another show, but the greatness has left the bldg.

 

On another note, has anyone seen Elvis lately?

Bladestrom

its funny how deep space 9 and voyager made money but was crap wasn't it, almost as if the star trek fans would buy any crap hoping for the same brilliance as the old Star trek series.  And then Ofc the investment was made and the new Star trek films were release, and lo they were also brilliant.  And here we have people praising deep space 27.....

Arglebargle

Originally posted by Bladestrom

Steve Jobs has given a lot of brilliant talks that cuts to the heart of the Corporate mediocrity(aka greed )Versus creativity problem, here is one:

 

 

These are always funny, since Jobs was a major corporate asshat.  And a personal one too!

Bladestrom

indeed he was, interesting isnt it...

laserit

Originally posted by Ket_Viliano

On another note, has anyone seen Elvis lately?

Star Trek died with Ray

 

No... but I did see the Lizard King the other day. 

Arglebargle

Originally posted by laserit

Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

Raph, as much as I like his work, is just like many other "oldtimers"... stuck in nostalgia.

Yeah, sucks for you guys... but WoW did things right that so many of you did wrong.

There is a reason why Jean_Luc Picard is but a forgotten memory and Captain Kirk will live forever 

 

Give credit where credit is due:

 

They were the innovators, without the things that they did there wouldn't have been a WoW.

You mean the reason that Kirk was in a show that had absolutely no competition in its arena?  Even when I was dutifully watching it first run, at the age of 12-13, I realized Kirk was a buffoon. 

 

Roddenberry had a great idea once, back in 1965 or so.

 

Not everything the early  game innovators did actually turn out to be good, useful, or fun.  They were heading out into the wild, and some of their attempts turned out great, some didn't work as they expected, and some were just awful.  Sturgeon's Law, really.

PyrateLV

"World of Warcraft effectively made MMOs perfect, and in the process, it killed them."

 

Incorrect.

WoW made Themepark MMOs perfect and there-by killing them

laserit

Originally posted by Arglebargle

Originally posted by laserit

Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

Raph, as much as I like his work, is just like many other "oldtimers"... stuck in nostalgia.

Yeah, sucks for you guys... but WoW did things right that so many of you did wrong.

There is a reason why Jean_Luc Picard is but a forgotten memory and Captain Kirk will live forever 

 

Give credit where credit is due:

 

They were the innovators, without the things that they did there wouldn't have been a WoW.

You mean the reason that Kirk was in a show that had absolutely no competition in its arena?  Even when I was dutifully watching it first run, at the age of 12-13, I realized Kirk was a buffoon. 

 

Roddenberry had a great idea once, back in 1965 or so.

 

Not everything the early  game innovators did actually turn out to be good, useful, or fun.  They were heading out into the wild, and some of their attempts turned out great, some didn't work as they expected, and some were just awful.  Sturgeon's Law, really.

Some of what makes those old Star Trek episode's so good.... is that they were so bad (the acting that is) 

 

And yes, that is what innovating is all about. 

Bladestrom

The original Star trek series were great in its time, and great for watching for old time sake and the Star Trek reboot in 2009 was great too because it freshened it all up. Now imagine if the old series continued to this day and age, That's the difference between WOW and a product that does move with the times properly.

laserit

Blade

 

Lets not forget that Star Trek was actually a flop in it's time and it wasn't until the 1970's that in reruns it actually became a huge success