Combat system

Lord.Bachus

Did we see any update on the combat system...  So far i dislike it because of the extemely low number of active skills on your bar combined with a CD system.....   

Lord.Bachus

Originally posted by DMKano
Expect lots of changes and tuning - the current iteration is pretty weak IMO, but it is like combat prototype. But no updates to combat at this time.

I think 8 combat skills would work.....  If the 4 weapon skills would be combo builders... Much like dcuo....  

However, i am pretty much convinced that even with a combo system for your weapon skills, having 8 class skills would be much better...

 

but the way they orriginally explained it would be underwhelming...

Thebeasttt

i was semi excited about EQN until i tried the combat. Why they would copy Neverwinter is beyond me but I died a little inside.

Lord.Bachus

Originally posted by Thebeasttt
i was semi excited about EQN until i tried the combat. Why they would copy Neverwinter is beyond me but I died a little inside.

I guess since everyone seems so negative, they might change it...

Aelious

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
Did we see any update on the combat system...  So far i dislike it because of the extemely low number of active skills on your bar combined with a CD system.....   

 

Did you mean how Landmark is right now or what has been said about EQN? Landmark did add a third ability to each weapon but nothing else so far. As far as EQN there will be 12 active abilities at one time. 4 skills of weapon set one, 4 skills of weapon set two (hotswap) and the four interchangeable abilities that are tied to categories in the class you're currently playing.

 

Having a CD system may seem off-putting but that combined with a resource pool means that spamming abilities should be inadvisable. This is needed because of the reticle/action system they went with. We'll have to see the end result.

Nanfoodle

Ya the current combat system is really bad but like posted above, the current combat is just the start of the foundation. They are working on movement and weapon skills. Right now it feels like bunny hopping is the game you play when you are in combat lol. Im done with landmark till they update more as well. Im still not sold on this no trinity game but who knows they may pull off a gem like EVE =-) Some games can make it work.

Yamota

Is it non target action combat? If not I don't think I will bother with it. Won't go back after playing the likes of TERA, way too much more engaging to have you control the combat rather than TAB-target, 1,2,3 style.

Allein

Originally posted by Yamota
Is it non target action combat? If not I don't think I will bother with it. Won't go back after playing the likes of TERA, way too much more engaging to have you control the combat rather than TAB-target, 1,2,3 style.

EQN should be similar to TERA/Smite from what they've shown so far in Landmark gameplay and the EQN tech demos. 

Allein

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

Originally posted by DMKano
Expect lots of changes and tuning - the current iteration is pretty weak IMO, but it is like combat prototype. But no updates to combat at this time.

I think 8 combat skills would work.....  If the 4 weapon skills would be combo builders... Much like dcuo....  

However, i am pretty much convinced that even with a combo system for your weapon skills, having 8 class skills would be much better...

but the way they orriginally explained it would be underwhelming...

They vaguely mentioned that there would be a combo system of some sort. No clue if it will be like DCUO or GW2 or any number of ways to do it. They've already shown team combos with the freezing of the ground and then smashing through what is frozen, both of which aren't nearly as effective if at all just solo.

While I think 8 (12) skills could be blah if that was the limit, but simply being able to swap classes is a pretty big deal in itself.

As well as gear/achievements having quite a impact on how skills/classes work. Take those same 12 skills, toss in a couple interesting gear/achievement combos and you'd have a different class basically, which I think is the idea. Start with a basic class/role design and then build from there.

To me it isn't hugely different then a typical class that has 50+ skills but any given build/encounter is only using a portion of them. In EQN you simply manage multiple classes and templates to do different things instead of having a screen covered in UI or having to respec and regear the same character if you ever want to try something new.

I'm hoping that between active/action combat itself, whatever combo system they have, and being able to build classes to our liking, that being bored or the game becoming too simplified won't happen. 

 

Rydeson

Originally posted by Aelious

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
Did we see any update on the combat system...  So far i dislike it because of the extemely low number of active skills on your bar combined with a CD system.....   

 

Did you mean how Landmark is right now or what has been said about EQN? Landmark did add a third ability to each weapon but nothing else so far. As far as EQN there will be 12 active abilities at one time. 4 skills of weapon set one, 4 skills of weapon set two (hotswap) and the four interchangeable abilities that are tied to categories in the class you're currently playing.

 Having a CD system may seem off-putting but that combined with a resource pool means that spamming abilities should be inadvisable. This is needed because of the reticle/action system they went with. We'll have to see the end result.

     EQN definitely has their work cut out for them..  Personally what I saw so far in ALL combat videos, is bouncing bunny twitch zerg..  Now some are saying that SOE will address this by changing the energy pool interaction to prevent players from spamming jumps, double jumps, and shooting off skills like air soft PvP..  Be ready for the recipe to backfire tho..  If you increase the cool downs, and energy cost so much that you truly have to watch what you do and when you do it, this will aggravate "ALL" of the players that are not very accurate in twitch shooter combat..  Sure the gent that is 80% accurate will not feel the change in the energy pool, but someone that is only 40% sure as hell will and will LEAVE and QUIT the game..

     However, if you leave the energy pool close to what it is now, you get mindless rapid fire bunny hopping combat that will lose it's appeal and again, many will quit and leave the game.. IMO, there are many more benefits for auto targeting in a PvE game community, then shooter combat that targets PvP players..

    Now as for the 2 different weapons set skills, we still don't know details and I suspect that one set will be tailored towards solo targets, while the other set focuses on AE attacks.. If that is the case, hot swapping would be stupid and a waste of time.. And I doubt that class skills will be something actively used on a regular basis while in combat..  My hotkeys 6-0 in GW2 seldom get used unless I need a little more push on elite mobs.. If I'm in a group event in the open world I can't remember the last time I used a class skill.. 

Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Ya the current combat system is really bad but like posted above, the current combat is just the start of the foundation. They are working on movement and weapon skills. Right now it feels like bunny hopping is the game you play when you are in combat lol. Im done with landmark till they update more as well. Im still not sold on this no trinity game but who knows they may pull off a gem like EVE =-) Some games can make it work.

     Yeah, it appears that the combat so far in Landmark was created overnight to appease a vocal group of players wanting to kill stuff..  It shows to me and many of the community how LITTLE they have come along in combat since EQN was announced over a year ago..  Sword, Staff and Bow attack is all they got?  Really?  Like many have said, this game isn't remotely close to being playable..

Originally posted by Allein

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

Originally posted by DMKano
Expect lots of changes and tuning - the current iteration is pretty weak IMO, but it is like combat prototype. But no updates to combat at this time.

I think 8 combat skills would work.....  If the 4 weapon skills would be combo builders... Much like dcuo....  

However, i am pretty much convinced that even with a combo system for your weapon skills, having 8 class skills would be much better...

but the way they orriginally explained it would be underwhelming...

They vaguely mentioned that there would be a combo system of some sort. No clue if it will be like DCUO or GW2 or any number of ways to do it. They've already shown team combos with the freezing of the ground and then smashing through what is frozen, both of which aren't nearly as effective if at all just solo.

While I think 8 (12) skills could be blah if that was the limit, but simply being able to swap classes is a pretty big deal in itself.

As well as gear/achievements having quite a impact on how skills/classes work. Take those same 12 skills, toss in a couple interesting gear/achievement combos and you'd have a different class basically, which I think is the idea. Start with a basic class/role design and then build from there.

To me it isn't hugely different then a typical class that has 50+ skills but any given build/encounter is only using a portion of them. In EQN you simply manage multiple classes and templates to do different things instead of having a screen covered in UI or having to respec and regear the same character if you ever want to try something new.

I'm hoping that between active/action combat itself, whatever combo system they have, and being able to build classes to our liking, that being bored or the game becoming too simplified won't happen. 

 

     I have to comment about the class swapping again..  How is it you don't find this immersion RPG game breaking?  For example to play a Shadow Knight or a Death Knight means you are evil to the core and you seek out weak wherever it might be and conquer it..  Playing a Paladin means you serve and protect those your deity demands.. This gets us back to how original RPG games were played where players chose to be lawful good, or chaotic evil, etc etc.. But in your eyes a player should be able to switch from being a Paladin to Shadow Knight as easy as changing your socks..  Really?   Same can be said for having the ability to change from Cleric to Necromancer just because you like the skill sets better ..... Really?

     So I have to ask, do you truly want an immersion RPG game, or just shooter arcade game? Now lets get back to gear bonuses too.. I think you misunderstand what the gear perks will be and what they will do..  The last I heard and read about gear perks is "WHAT" damage is accountable, length or amount of damage, and energy cost... A default skill might be 100 (blue) damage costing you 20 energy, with a cooldown of 1.4 seconds.. Gear for the most part will only slightly change the numbers I shown.. You might pick up a helm that says, "increase damage by 2%", or decrease cooldown by .1 seconds.. or the item will allow you to do both blue and green damage..  Now listen up here closely..  That last part of blue and green damage does NOT mean it does both 100 blue and 100 green damage.. If you have a sword that does blue damage, and the mob you are attacking are resistant to blue damage you will not get full damage, however now that you have gear that allows you to do blue/green damage you get to do full 100 points of damage, not 200..  Are you catching on yet?  The types of damage are very similar to the old EQ1 resistance checks.. 

     Gear will not significantly change how a skill works..  It will NOT CHANGE YOUR sweeping sword skill that is an AE skill to a Boss insta death charging stab..  It will NOT change your wizzard single target frost skill to a AE freezing skill..  I"m not sure where you are getting this idea that you can chose to be a "Wizzard" but the gear/combo can make you fight like a "Warrior" instead.. >>>  gear/achievements having quite a impact on how skills/classes work. Take those same 12 skills, toss in a couple interesting gear/achievement combos and you'd have a different class basically   ????? HUH? 

 

Allein

Originally posted by Rydeson

Personally what I saw so far in ALL combat videos, is bouncing bunny twitch zerg..  Now some are saying that SOE will address this by changing the energy pool interaction to prevent players from spamming jumps, double jumps, and shooting off skills like air soft PvP..  Be ready for the recipe to backfire tho..  If you increase the cool downs, and energy cost so much that you truly have to watch what you do and when you do it, this will aggravate "ALL" of the players that are not very accurate in twitch shooter combat..  Sure the gent that is 80% accurate will not feel the change in the energy pool, but someone that is only 40% sure as hell will and will LEAVE and QUIT the game..

Here is an example of someone not trying to be bugs vs someone that is. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SfRamPK9qU

Removing the over the top movement seems likely and the video is from the POV of someone that already plays that way. Although Landmark =/= EQN when it comes to what they've shown so far. In the tech demos of EQN, we don't see characters hopping around, they play fairly standard aka with their feet planted. If players can hop over mobs constantly (assuming they don't), there would be zero challenge to the game.

I'm not sure what your reasoning is on people leaving because they can't bounce around or that they only do this because their aim is bad.

Landmark's current PVP system is a test and 1st draft. Arena PVP shouldn't equal PVE. Look at a game of PVP in any mmorpg, I don't know many that function like PVE.

    Now as for the 2 different weapons set skills, we still don't know details and I suspect that one set will be tailored towards solo targets, while the other set focuses on AE attacks.. If that is the case, hot swapping would be stupid and a waste of time.. And I doubt that class skills will be something actively used on a regular basis while in combat..  My hotkeys 6-0 in GW2 seldom get used unless I need a little more push on elite mobs.. If I'm in a group event in the open world I can't remember the last time I used a class skill.. 

GW2's PVE is laughable and I don't know why you'd even use that as an example considering what we know of EQN. Play sPVP and don't use every skill/cooldown frequently and do well and I'd see where you are coming from. Going with the big assumption that Storybricks and EQN's PVE is supposed to be more player like (no proof yet), I would assume that players can't just auto attack and save the day. Mobs will have access to the same classes/skills as players, if they are using 1-12 skills either solo or within a group, I'd wager that players will need to do the same. GW2's classes/combat are designed with small scale PVP in mind, the fact that there is PVE in GW2 doesn't really matter or have any insight as to how EQN will function.

     I have to comment about the class swapping again..  How is it you don't find this immersion RPG game breaking?  For example to play a Shadow Knight or a Death Knight means you are evil to the core and you seek out weak wherever it might be and conquer it..  Playing a Paladin means you serve and protect those your deity demands.. This gets us back to how original RPG games were played where players chose to be lawful good, or chaotic evil, etc etc.. But in your eyes a player should be able to switch from being a Paladin to Shadow Knight as easy as changing your socks..  Really?   Same can be said for having the ability to change from Cleric to Necromancer just because you like the skill sets better ..... Really?

That's not my view actually. If you have to do "evil" acts to become a SK, I'd assume this plays into the life of consequence deal and it would either lock out playing a Pally or the road to redemption and then to obtain them would be much more difficult. Devs alluded to players not being able to access all classes just because.

They've yet to explain why EQN has multi-classing. Not sure if it will just be a gamey feature or if the lore will some how support it.

To me, there is no right way to do it. Be it I hit a button, have to go to my house, visit a class swap NPC, or log out and back in on another character, they all produce the same result. It is just as immersion breaking for me to log out of one character and then back into another with a different identity if I simply want to be me, but not limited to X class/skills forever.

From a RPG view, I get that it doesn't look good though.

I'm hoping there is some managing needed and players can't access all 40+ classes endless gear/builds at any one moment. Players should have to use their brains at least once in a while to plan and experiment. This should play into the challenge, choices, consequences, and time sinks elements of the game.

With all that said, I do support the general idea of multi-classing as it decreases the need to be an altaholic and to be able to experience a much fuller adventure. Without lore, it is one are I let logic take a back seat if it means I'll have a better time with the game.

     So I have to ask, do you truly want an immersion RPG game, or just shooter arcade game?

I want an immersive game, but what does that for me might be completely different then someone else. Subjective term that it is. Do I want a strict traditional RPG where you can only play 1 class-role forever on one character? No. I find that design very limiting and not realistic at all. In real life I'm not X forever. I wear different hats daily and through my life they continue to change.

I also do not want a "shooter" as you call them. I play FPS games (CS/TF2) and do not see the similarities in EQN. That is just a difference in view I guess. I want a game where I can adventure, progress my character, become part of something greater with the community/friends, etc. All of these ideas don't have to be mutually exclusive.

Now lets get back to gear bonuses too.. 

What about the example they gave? 

Class has Nature skills - Item A: Skills considered Physical as well - Item B: Physical abilities have +crit chance - Item C: Physical skills that crit have reduced cooldowns.

While not a huge leap from what you are saying, it does leave a bit more room beyond DPS only. Nature skill could be a Heal for example.

Honestly I'm not sure what you are trying to get at (guess I'm not catching on). Gear simply makes you better in some form. Doesn't have to be purely DPS, but as generally killing the enemy is good, DPS shouldn't be looked down upon as evil, nor the only aspect of combat. What if a long cool down AOE buff could crit in the above example? Or some other support skill. 

Gear will not significantly change how a skill works..

Disagree. I think this is just a subjective view on what we consider "change".

It will NOT CHANGE YOUR sweeping sword skill that is an AE skill to a Boss insta death charging stab..  

Agree, I do not think an item will turn a Fireball into a Sword Sweep. I'm talking about secondary attributes.

It will NOT change your wizzard single target frost skill to a AE freezing skill..  

Disagree, I can't say this will happen, but it seems possible. Not 100% impossible at least. Item could say: Single target CC has a 10% chance of CCing those within 5ft of target. Again no proof, but this isn't new at all.

I"m not sure where you are getting this idea that you can chose to be a "Wizzard" but the gear/combo can make you fight like a "Warrior"  

Neither am I. I've said multiple times that classes have 8 of 12 skills locked. This will determine the classes role and why I believe classes will have roles to begin with. But swap out 4 skills on Wizard for melee type classes, add in gear that supports defense or whatever and it could become more "Tanky". But no, they won't have a Sword and heavy armor with whatever melees will have going on. Wizards will always be casters.

gear/achievements having quite a impact on how skills/classes work. Take those same 12 skills, toss in a couple interesting gear/achievement combos and you'd have a different class basically   ????? HUH? 

Maybe build, deck, template would be better term. I still don't like the use of "Class" in EQN myself.

Possible gear examples:

Item A - All Physical skills considered Nature

Item B - Nature skills have 20% chance to proc self Hot 

Item C - 10% of Heals are reflected as damage to attacker

 Could turn a strictly melee "class" into a poor self healer along with give additional dps output. No this isn't changing a Rogue into an Enchanter, but that isn't what I meant. Like I said, I don't see it much different then a typical mmo class having 50-100+ skills and multiple sets of gear with 10+ stats, but only using a handful at any given time. You pick what you need for the time and run with it. Just pointing out that there is some depth to the system beyond Class = 12 skills, the end.

To me a Sword/Board Warrior is completely different then a 2-Handed Sword Warrior. A Shadow Priest is =/= Holy Priest. Based upon the default class, but play completely different. EQN takes this a bit further and allows skills to swap between classes and gear/achievement can tweak them further allowing for secondary attributes that simply aren't part of the default class.

I have to ask, what do you find bad about this system or what does X game do better?

 

Rydeson

     Allein.. that last part about Item A, B and C is ALL PURE speculation and guesswork on your part..  This is how hype works and leads to disappointment..  Here is another reason why I dislike shooter combat in a PvE world..  Listen up please and get your calculator out.. 

     Combat in any game is based on two things..  1) "to hit" probability and 2) "reaction" time in hitting spells and skills at the right time..  Traditional games that use auto targeting remove the #1 option.. Everyone has the same accuracy, so when devs have to program a fight, they only have to worry about the second part of button mashing, which accounts for average DPS.. 

     Here comes the math.. Ready?    When a poor player can only button mash 200dps due to slow reaction (#2) time, while a good player can button mash 400 dps, the devs know the variance between poor and good is 200..   Now add in shooter combat of hits and misses.. Poor player now can only do 100dps, where as the good player is still doing close to 400.. That variance grows and makes it difficult devs to design battles without alienating the poor the players, without making it too easy that good players become bored.. 

     Shooter combat works OK in a PvP world but has NO BUSINESS in a PvE world.. It's a very divisive mechanic that turns games  away from being community builders.. 

Allein

Originally posted by Rydeson

     Allein.. that last part about Item A, B and C is ALL PURE speculation and guesswork on your part..  This is how hype works and leads to disappointment..  

Pretty much anything we say about a game in development that isn't 100% backed by facts that we can see/play/understand is pure speculation. Might just be my reading skills, but you state things like you know for a fact it will work like XYZ, while I at least toss out my views are my assumptions. I try to stay within what the devs have said, but obviously hype/imagination do some work because there are a lot of blanks.

Combat in any game is based on two things..  1) "to hit" probability and 2) "reaction" time in hitting spells and skills at the right time..  Traditional games that use auto targeting remove the #1 option.. Everyone has the same accuracy, so when devs have to program a fight, they only have to worry about the second part of button mashing, which accounts for average DPS..

Not sure #1 is removed in a tab game. What about RNG, misses, or whatever? Usually gear and vertical power stacking plays into this with the longer you play, the "better" you become simply by adding more and more. Which is a big piece of why most games are get gear to get gear to gear. Players are not the same and those with better numbers can out power easier content, forcing the vertical progression to keep going. Leaving a lot of content as trivial and the "best" content out of reach of many.

     Here comes the math.. Ready?    When a poor player can only button mash 200dps due to slow reaction (#2) time, while a good player can button mash 400 dps, the devs know the variance between poor and good is 200..   Now add in shooter combat of hits and misses.. Poor player now can only do 100dps, where as the good player is still doing close to 400.. That variance grows and makes it difficult devs to design battles without alienating the poor the players, without making it too easy that good players become bored.. 

     Shooter combat works OK in a PvP world but has NO BUSINESS in a PvE world.. It's a very divisive mechanic that turns games  away from being community builders.. 

What about the idea of designing quality content for all skill levels? Providing rewards for each? Letting players set their challenge level. Where Tier 1 could have plenty to do for a lower skilled player and that Tier 5 doesn't have all the "good" stuff. Tier 1 Dragon takes 100 Tier 1 players and Tier 5 Dragon takes 50 Tier 5 players. Providing different degrees of challenge/reward. Not a huge difference of having a dungeon with multiple difficulty settings. Players choose their challenge.

Devs have already said that if content becomes to easy, they can crank the dial up. So beyond the top 1% that will always be too good for their own good, most will have a ongoing adventure that can continue to grow as they improve. You are 400dps? Go to Tier 5. You are 100 Dps? Go to Tier 1. Tier 1 Giant takes 25 average players or 5 higher end players. Instead of Tier 1 Giant takes 25 average players and Tier 1 Giant is killed by a 1 skilled players sneeze.

Which encourages the lower end to social/group and not solo like most games, yet allows for the higher skills to work in smaller organized groups if wanted or larger depending on content. Instead of solo for 95% of the game, then some how magically be good and team work for the "best" and hardest stuff.

I don't disagree with what you are saying, but that button mashing concept relies on certain design/context. If EQN (again I'm assuming) breaks away and don't copy the traditional system, other variables would come into play and the same issues wouldn't apply.

In PVP it is much easier as you can have brackets of players ranked and segregated by some gamey feature. All 50-1 KDR players play together, 1-50 play together, whatever. This doesn't exactly copy over to a mmorpg, especially when the game isn't a vertical progression system with the "end game" being the goal of all players. This might alienate those that want to solo 100% of the game or the hardcore of the hardcore, but I think the average is exactly that and a game should focus there first.

Fact is, no matter what SOE or another company does, no game is going to be perfect to all or any of us. For every thing you prefer, someone else will prefer the opposite. If you think the design they are going with is crap, too easy/hard, will fail, yadda yadda, that's fine. We had basically the same design for the last 10 years or so. Before that it was a bit different, but still pretty narrow. EQN might not be reinventing the wheel but it is breaking away from the traditional systems that it seems many aren't able to sink their teeth into anymore, regardless if it is good or not. Just doesn't have the same attraction.

You've said that you haven't played any games with what EQN is shooting for. Not sure that you are the best judge of what is possible or how good/bad it will be. I've played several games that are in the same general area and I've liked them all. Different games for different players. Nothing new.

Might as well be going on about Apple vs Android or Football teams or whatever random thing that is totally subjective and a personal experience. Until EQN forces SOE to file for bankruptcy and all servers go offline, I'll assume it will work. We can make assumptions until the day EQN releases without anything to show for it, all rather pointless, but it passes the time at least.

rojoArcueid

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

Originally posted by DMKano
Expect lots of changes and tuning - the current iteration is pretty weak IMO, but it is like combat prototype. But no updates to combat at this time.

I think 8 combat skills would work.....  If the 4 weapon skills would be combo builders... Much like dcuo....  

However, i am pretty much convinced that even with a combo system for your weapon skills, having 8 class skills would be much better...

 

but the way they orriginally explained it would be underwhelming...

i hope they dont go the combo Builder / Finisher route. IMO that is a cheap combat mechanic. I personally havent enjoyed any game that has had its classes perform like a WoW Rogue. Again, IMO, most other combat mechanics can be more creative and fun than build build build finish rinse and repeat.

Rydeson

Originally posted by rojoArcueid

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

Originally posted by DMKano
Expect lots of changes and tuning - the current iteration is pretty weak IMO, but it is like combat prototype. But no updates to combat at this time.

I think 8 combat skills would work.....  If the 4 weapon skills would be combo builders... Much like dcuo....  

However, i am pretty much convinced that even with a combo system for your weapon skills, having 8 class skills would be much better...

 

but the way they orriginally explained it would be underwhelming...

i hope they dont go the combo Builder / Finisher route. IMO that is a cheap combat mechanic. I personally havent enjoyed any game that has had its classes perform like a WoW Rogue. Again, IMO, most other combat mechanics can be more creative and fun than build build build finish rinse and repeat.

     Am I the only one here seeing that combo builders can turn into what EQN is trying to avoid.. ?   SOE has been preaching how they want to stay clear of any "needed" roles and skills from players..  However, we all know how players min/max characters and fights..  If you allow combos to become min/max you create a new "NEEDED" part of the game..  I can see it now..  "Sorry dude, but we are looking for someone that can ground break for this fight"..   Instead of looking for a Pally over a warrior.. 

     The community through min/maxing will dictate what is the best classes and skills (combos) for particular fights, and force others to fall in line like sheep, or be left out..  What will SOE do to prevent this from happening?

YashaX

Originally posted by Rydeson

     Allein.. that last part about Item A, B and C is ALL PURE speculation and guesswork on your part..  This is how hype works and leads to disappointment..  Here is another reason why I dislike shooter combat in a PvE world..  Listen up please and get your calculator out.. 

     Combat in any game is based on two things..  1) "to hit" probability and 2) "reaction" time in hitting spells and skills at the right time..  Traditional games that use auto targeting remove the #1 option.. Everyone has the same accuracy, so when devs have to program a fight, they only have to worry about the second part of button mashing, which accounts for average DPS.. 

     Here comes the math.. Ready?    When a poor player can only button mash 200dps due to slow reaction (#2) time, while a good player can button mash 400 dps, the devs know the variance between poor and good is 200..   Now add in shooter combat of hits and misses.. Poor player now can only do 100dps, where as the good player is still doing close to 400.. That variance grows and makes it difficult devs to design battles without alienating the poor the players, without making it too easy that good players become bored.. 

     Shooter combat works OK in a PvP world but has NO BUSINESS in a PvE world.. It's a very divisive mechanic that turns games  away from being community builders.. 

Action-type combat is totally different from "shooter" combat and has been in pve based games for a long long time. This lame-arse tab targeting crap some of you seem to love is mainly the stuff of mmos (especially older ones), and combat was probably structured that way to get around issues of lag/internet speeds that are not such a big issue these days.

 

 

Rydeson

Originally posted by Allein

What about the idea of designing quality content for all skill levels? Providing rewards for each? Letting players set their challenge level. Where Tier 1 could have plenty to do for a lower skilled player and that Tier 5 doesn't have all the "good" stuff. Tier 1 Dragon takes 100 Tier 1 players and Tier 5 Dragon takes 50 Tier 5 players. Providing different degrees of challenge/reward. Not a huge difference of having a dungeon with multiple difficulty settings. Players choose their challenge.       If I read you right, it won't work and will again alienate the player base.. If you really want to promote a social game, almost all of the game has to be accessible by everyone.. This is still a problem that even Blizzard has to deal with..  Segregating the community is never a good idea..  The best option "IF" you wish to avoid Esport gameplay is to do what EQ1 did originally..  A dragon is a dragon and it doesn't matter how many people are present to take them down.. Maybe 20 good players, maybe 40 average players, maybe 60 poor players.. The fight has NO RESTRICTIONS as to who can join in..  That is true social community gaming.. 

Devs have already said that if content becomes to easy, they can crank the dial up. So beyond the top 1% that will always be too good for their own good, most will have a ongoing adventure that can continue to grow as they improve. You are 400dps? Go to Tier 5. You are 100 Dps? Go to Tier 1. Tier 1 Giant takes 25 average players or 5 higher end players. Instead of Tier 1 Giant takes 25 average players and Tier 1 Giant is killed by a 1 skilled players sneeze.  You're dividing up the player base, which is not a good idea.. EQ1 did this with PoP, and what followed was mass "guild hopping" and mass EXODUS, which I was one of them.. Blizzard did this a few times with "keying" players and found out it was making the same mistake EQ1 did..   Tier'ing nad Key'ing are Esport mechanics and often cause more damage then good to the account totals.. 

I don't disagree with what you are saying, but that button mashing concept relies on certain design/context. If EQN (again I'm assuming) breaks away and don't copy the traditional system, other variables would come into play and the same issues wouldn't apply.  The issue is simple mathamatics..  DPS is calculated on a number of variables, and the more variables you put into play, the wider the gap between low and high dps.. The wider the gap becomes, the more the community splits up based on DPS potential.. We've all seen this bullshit in WoW with the community  or guilds demanding "gear score", or minimum DPS numbers to be accepted into a raid / etc etc..  EQN brags how social it will be, and by not forcing players to fall into a needed role, but if they are NOT careful they will create a "new" need.. This will be especially true if EQN allows for any outside 3rd party programs that record and display combat numbers..

In PVP it is much easier as you can have brackets of players ranked and segregated by some gamey feature. All 50-1 KDR players play together, 1-50 play together, whatever. This doesn't exactly copy over to a mmorpg, especially when the game isn't a vertical progression system with the "end game" being the goal of all players. This might alienate those that want to solo 100% of the game or the hardcore of the hardcore, but I think the average is exactly that and a game should focus there first.

     I question this games, or any games, move anytime I run across them..  I am the perfect Devils Advocate, because I look at everything from ALL sides and expect the worst from every situation..  We humans are very unpredictable, yet predictable at the same time..  I believe in Murphy's Law 110%, especially when the human race is involved.. LOL  I have played in over a dozen games since 1999, and I have yet to be in one game that the playing community didn't find ways to exploit and take advantage of design features for their selfish needs.. I suspect that EQN and it's community will follow those same footsteps...

 

Rydeson

Originally posted by YashaX

Originally posted by Rydeson

     Allein.. that last part about Item A, B and C is ALL PURE speculation and guesswork on your part..  This is how hype works and leads to disappointment..  Here is another reason why I dislike shooter combat in a PvE world..  Listen up please and get your calculator out.. 

     Combat in any game is based on two things..  1) "to hit" probability and 2) "reaction" time in hitting spells and skills at the right time..  Traditional games that use auto targeting remove the #1 option.. Everyone has the same accuracy, so when devs have to program a fight, they only have to worry about the second part of button mashing, which accounts for average DPS.. 

     Here comes the math.. Ready?    When a poor player can only button mash 200dps due to slow reaction (#2) time, while a good player can button mash 400 dps, the devs know the variance between poor and good is 200..   Now add in shooter combat of hits and misses.. Poor player now can only do 100dps, where as the good player is still doing close to 400.. That variance grows and makes it difficult devs to design battles without alienating the poor the players, without making it too easy that good players become bored.. 

     Shooter combat works OK in a PvP world but has NO BUSINESS in a PvE world.. It's a very divisive mechanic that turns games  away from being community builders.. 

Action-type combat is totally different from "shooter" combat and has been in pve based games for a long long time. This lame-arse tab targeting crap some of you seem to love is mainly the stuff of mmos (especially older ones), and combat was probably structured that way to get around issues of lag/internet speeds that are not such a big issue these days.

I"m guessing from your tone you are a PVP minded person looking for a new Esport game?  Tell me I'm wrong.. lol  Being I promote and enjoy community building, I disapprove any formula that divides a community, and shooter combat does exactly that.. 

Alders

Hopefully they're going back to the drawing board and revisiting their decision to make an action combat MOBA MMO.

Do not want.

Rydeson

Originally posted by YashaX

Originally posted by Rydeson

Originally posted by YashaX

Originally posted by Rydeson

     Allein.. that last part about Item A, B and C is ALL PURE speculation and guesswork on your part..  This is how hype works and leads to disappointment..  Here is another reason why I dislike shooter combat in a PvE world..  Listen up please and get your calculator out.. 

     Combat in any game is based on two things..  1) "to hit" probability and 2) "reaction" time in hitting spells and skills at the right time..  Traditional games that use auto targeting remove the #1 option.. Everyone has the same accuracy, so when devs have to program a fight, they only have to worry about the second part of button mashing, which accounts for average DPS.. 

     Here comes the math.. Ready?    When a poor player can only button mash 200dps due to slow reaction (#2) time, while a good player can button mash 400 dps, the devs know the variance between poor and good is 200..   Now add in shooter combat of hits and misses.. Poor player now can only do 100dps, where as the good player is still doing close to 400.. That variance grows and makes it difficult devs to design battles without alienating the poor the players, without making it too easy that good players become bored.. 

     Shooter combat works OK in a PvP world but has NO BUSINESS in a PvE world.. It's a very divisive mechanic that turns games  away from being community builders.. 

Action-type combat is totally different from "shooter" combat and has been in pve based games for a long long time. This lame-arse tab targeting crap some of you seem to love is mainly the stuff of mmos (especially older ones), and combat was probably structured that way to get around issues of lag/internet speeds that are not such a big issue these days.

I"m guessing from your tone you are a PVP minded person looking for a new Esport game?  Tell me I'm wrong.. lol  Being I promote and enjoy community building, I disapprove any formula that divides a community, and shooter combat does exactly that.. 

Perhaps you can't read?

It is ridiculous to say that action combat doesn't belong in a pve game considering there are so many great pve only rpgs that have action combat systems, and bordering on stupid to call an action combat system "twitch shooter combat".

 

As for my tone, it pisses me off that you can't even differentiate between the combat in a fucking shooter and Dark Souls/Zelda/Dragons Dogma etc - and how you try to put some spin on your opinion as being "for the community".

     Seriously dude.. You might want to reread the post.. Where did I say "action combat doesn't belong in a PvE game"????  I even took the time to highlight in "RED" what I actually said..  I hope this helps..  EQN is NOT action combat like GW2, it is PURE shooter combat just like PS2..  Season Greetings

Rydeson

Originally posted by Alders

Hopefully they're going back to the drawing board and revisiting their decision to make an action combat MOBA MMO.

Do not want.

We can hope.. Because if EQN plays more like PS2 then it does GW2, I won't even give it the time of day.. even for FREE. 

YashaX

Originally posted by Rydeson

Originally posted by YashaX

Originally posted by Rydeson

Originally posted by YashaX

Originally posted by Rydeson

     Allein.. that last part about Item A, B and C is ALL PURE speculation and guesswork on your part..  This is how hype works and leads to disappointment..  Here is another reason why I dislike shooter combat in a PvE world..  Listen up please and get your calculator out.. 

     Combat in any game is based on two things..  1) "to hit" probability and 2) "reaction" time in hitting spells and skills at the right time..  Traditional games that use auto targeting remove the #1 option.. Everyone has the same accuracy, so when devs have to program a fight, they only have to worry about the second part of button mashing, which accounts for average DPS.. 

     Here comes the math.. Ready?    When a poor player can only button mash 200dps due to slow reaction (#2) time, while a good player can button mash 400 dps, the devs know the variance between poor and good is 200..   Now add in shooter combat of hits and misses.. Poor player now can only do 100dps, where as the good player is still doing close to 400.. That variance grows and makes it difficult devs to design battles without alienating the poor the players, without making it too easy that good players become bored.. 

     Shooter combat works OK in a PvP world but has NO BUSINESS in a PvE world.. It's a very divisive mechanic that turns games  away from being community builders.. 

Action-type combat is totally different from "shooter" combat and has been in pve based games for a long long time. This lame-arse tab targeting crap some of you seem to love is mainly the stuff of mmos (especially older ones), and combat was probably structured that way to get around issues of lag/internet speeds that are not such a big issue these days.

I"m guessing from your tone you are a PVP minded person looking for a new Esport game?  Tell me I'm wrong.. lol  Being I promote and enjoy community building, I disapprove any formula that divides a community, and shooter combat does exactly that.. 

Perhaps you can't read?

It is ridiculous to say that action combat doesn't belong in a pve game considering there are so many great pve only rpgs that have action combat systems, and bordering on stupid to call an action combat system "twitch shooter combat".

 

As for my tone, it pisses me off that you can't even differentiate between the combat in a fucking shooter and Dark Souls/Zelda/Dragons Dogma etc - and how you try to put some spin on your opinion as being "for the community".

     Seriously dude.. You might want to reread the post.. Where did I say "action combat doesn't belong in a PvE game"????  I even took the time to highlight in "RED" what I actually said..  I hope this helps..  EQN is NOT action combat like GW2, it is PURE shooter combat just like PS2..  Season Greetings

Because "dude" you have been calling  action combat "shooter combat" the whole time. EQN does have action combat, it is just shit atm. Shit action combat does not = shooter.

Allein

Originally posted by Rydeson

I"m guessing from your tone you are a PVP minded person looking for a new Esport game?  Tell me I'm wrong.. lol  Being I promote and enjoy community building, I disapprove any formula that divides a community, and shooter combat does exactly that.. 

I love PVP, but also PVE. I also enjoy tab target, action combat, "shooter", turn based, yadda yadda. Some gamers like a variety of styles and games and aren't limited to X or nothing. While I do find PVP and more active game play to be more engaging/exciting, for EQN, I'm hoping to focus on PVE only or PVP if it is mini-event type stuff like the DE vs Dryads. This has zero to do with what the combat type is like, just a by product.

The idea that tab or any style promotes community building is just wrong to me. I have plenty of "friends" within our "community" in the FPS/shooter games I've played.

Fact is, we aren't all the same. Any design decision is going to upset someone and be amazing to someone else. There is no "The Community" that you speak of and hat devs can magically make us all happy.

EQN might not be the design or community for you, but that is by choice or personal taste. EQ isn't a community I want to be a part of. Why? I don't like the game play. Guess EQ's combat or overall current design divides the community...

Allein

Originally posted by Rydeson

Originally posted by Allein

If I read you right, it won't work and will again alienate the player base.. If you really want to promote a social game, almost all of the game has to be accessible by everyone.. This is still a problem that even Blizzard has to deal with..  Segregating the community is never a good idea..  The best option "IF" you wish to avoid Esport gameplay is to do what EQ1 did originally..  A dragon is a dragon and it doesn't matter how many people are present to take them down.. Maybe 20 good players, maybe 40 average players, maybe 60 poor players.. The fight has NO RESTRICTIONS as to who can join in..  That is true social community gaming.. 

Are you a fan of soloing? If so, I think I might get where you are coming from.

There is no way to make all content available to everyone at least not without a lot of gamey features added. Such as multiple degrees of difficulty like WoW's dungeons. Which isn't bad, but it could be done more naturally, such as having the Tiers themselves be the difficulty setting.

Simple thing is that not all players are equally skills, organized, have same amount of time to play, willing to put effort into character progression, etc. Because of this, there has to be varying difficulties and challenges.

My idea and what I hope EQN is actually doing, can help this situation quite a lot. EQ's dragons couldn't be killed by any random number of people, there had to be some effort involved. As gamers and games and changed over the years, what did/didn't work in EQ doesn't matter anymore. 72 random PUGs couldn't go kill The Sleeper.

Maybe Tier 1 dragon takes 100 Tier 1 players, 20 Tier 5 players and a Tier 5 dragon takes 300 Tier 1 players and 40 Tier 5 players. Where it is technically possible, but the amount of skill needed is a important factor. Instead of 5 Tier 1 players can kill a Tier 5 dragon just as easily as Tier 5 players.

There needs to be some reason to be "better" to progress, to play the dang game. Or you get WoW. Faceroll content that requires no team work, effort, yadda yadda. Which I thought is what some of us were trying to get away from. 

You're dividing up the player base, which is not a good idea.. EQ1 did this with PoP, and what followed was mass "guild hopping" and mass EXODUS, which I was one of them.. Blizzard did this a few times with "keying" players and found out it was making the same mistake EQ1 did..   Tier'ing nad Key'ing are Esport mechanics and often cause more damage then good to the account totals.. 

How would you suggest they provide the same content to all players that keeps people interested and challenged long term? You seem to enjoy throwing out shooter, twitch, esport vague terms as negatives and your reasoning, but there really isn't any. Provide solutions not only problems. How do you let players of 15+ years experience play with 1 week experience players in the same game?

The issue is simple mathamatics..  DPS is calculated on a number of variables, and the more variables you put into play, the wider the gap between low and high dps.. The wider the gap becomes, the more the community splits up based on DPS potential.. We've all seen this bullshit in WoW with the community  or guilds demanding "gear score", or minimum DPS numbers to be accepted into a raid / etc etc..  EQN brags how social it will be, and by not forcing players to fall into a needed role, but if they are NOT careful they will create a "new" need.. This will be especially true if EQN allows for any outside 3rd party programs that record and display combat numbers..

We've also seen WoW become what it is where team work and risk vs reward no longer are needed because of the "let everyone do it all" idea. Not sure if you've played many PVP games, but many are fairly simply and you don't need a spreadsheet and math degree to figure out what works and how to play. Just some are "better" then others and that's life. No reason PVE with some depth couldn't be similar. They've alluded to UI and addons not being able to data mine and track everything, hopefully they stick to it and beyond "hacks" or whatever, it won't be possible. If I don't know how much DPS you or I am doing, the issue is removed quite a lot in a social game.

     I question this games, or any games, move anytime I run across them..  I am the perfect Devils Advocate, because I look at everything from ALL sides and expect the worst from every situation..  We humans are very unpredictable, yet predictable at the same time..  I believe in Murphy's Law 110%, especially when the human race is involved.. LOL  I have played in over a dozen games since 1999, and I have yet to be in one game that the playing community didn't find ways to exploit and take advantage of design features for their selfish needs.. I suspect that EQN and it's community will follow those same footsteps...

I've played in a lot more then a dozen games since 95 or so and I agree. People are people and gamers are no exception. While you might look at things from all sides, you are coming across as wanting things your way or no way, which I understand. Who doesn't want their ideal game made for them. Problem is, that will never happen for any of us.

I'm willing to let some of my ideals take a back seat if it is better for the game and in turn myself. Such as you might not like action combat, but if that will bring in potentially 100s of thousands or even millions of players of the new generation, it might be better if it keeps the game growing for years and years instead of just being a meh game that barely stays profitable to keep the lights on.

There is no ONE way to do games correctly and there isn't just ONE type of player/community. SOE has to look out for themselves and going after the biggest slice could work or not. So far, EQN looks like it can appeal to the masses without being a total mindless experience (WoW grind). Only time will tell if their choices will have good consequences or not.

You say that XYZ are bad for yourself and the community, but I don't see any reasoning beyond your subjective tastes. If you can point out where action/aim targeting, shooter/twitch combat, multi-classing, or whatever random feature you dislike about EQN has resulted in a divided community that would some how all come together otherwise, please let me know.

 

Rydeson

Originally posted by Allein

Originally posted by Rydeson

I"m guessing from your tone you are a PVP minded person looking for a new Esport game?  Tell me I'm wrong.. lol  Being I promote and enjoy community building, I disapprove any formula that divides a community, and shooter combat does exactly that.. 

I love PVP, but also PVE. I also enjoy tab target, action combat, "shooter", turn based, yadda yadda. Some gamers like a variety of styles and games and aren't limited to X or nothing. While I do find PVP and more active game play to be more engaging/exciting, for EQN, I'm hoping to focus on PVE only or PVP if it is mini-event type stuff like the DE vs Dryads. This has zero to do with what the combat type is like, just a by product.

The idea that tab or any style promotes community building is just wrong to me. I have plenty of "friends" within our "community" in the FPS/shooter games I've played.

Fact is, we aren't all the same. Any design decision is going to upset someone and be amazing to someone else. There is no "The Community" that you speak of and hat devs can magically make us all happy.

EQN might not be the design or community for you, but that is by choice or personal taste. EQ isn't a community I want to be a part of. Why? I don't like the game play. Guess EQ's combat or overall current design divides the community...

     I think you totally misunderstand what communities are.. no offense..  I get the feeling you are a very competitive person in whatever game you play..  And when I speak of social communities, esport and competitive play has NO ROOM in it.. Whenever game mechanics divide people into smaller groups, you have a problem.. 

PS.. Read your last sentence again and keep that in memory in my next post.. 

Rydeson

Originally posted by Allein

Originally posted by Rydeson

Originally posted by Allein

There is no way to make all content available to everyone at least not without a lot of gamey features added. Such as multiple degrees of difficulty like WoW's dungeons. Which isn't bad, but it could be done more naturally, such as having the Tiers themselves be the difficulty setting.    

     Wrong.. Remove all the gamey features and problem solved is the answer..  Just like in the old days of EQ with guilds doing ToV raids..  A guild was never restricted by ANYTHING to enter ToV and have at it.. I take that back, I think ToV required you be 55 level to enter, but other then that, no restrictions.. If a guild of 20 elite players wanted to have a go at it, that was their options.. If a weaker guild of 50 players wanted to enter, they could.. There was no lockouts, no "raid size" bullshit.. This is what I'm suggesting and promoting.. The ONLY people that would be against this formula are the esporters.. Those that are so STUCK on themselves and their selfish egos, they hate the idea that 50 weaker players just killed the same dragon that 30 strong players just did.. 

Simple thing is that not all players are equally skills, organized, have same amount of time to play, willing to put effort into character progression, etc. Because of this, there has to be varying difficulties and challenges.  Wrong.. This is NOT an esport game.. Who cares if a larger group of weaker players join up to defeat what YOU and your buddies did with less numbers?  Again, you really do come off with an esport attitude..

Maybe Tier 1 dragon takes 100 Tier 1 players, 20 Tier 5 players and a Tier 5 dragon takes 300 Tier 1 players and 40 Tier 5 players. Where it is technically possible, but the amount of skill needed is a important factor. Instead of 5 Tier 1 players can kill a Tier 5 dragon just as easily as Tier 5 players.  Remember above I told you to remember your last sentence.. YOU ARE PROMOTING dividing the playerbase up, by keeping tier 1 players as you call it, away from tier 2, 3 or whatever.. tisk tisk.. You have a double standard and you don't promote true social gaming.. 

There needs to be some reason to be "better" to progress, to play the dang game. Or you get WoW. Faceroll content that requires no team work, effort, yadda yadda. Which I thought is what some of us were trying to get away from.  BETTER?  Here comes the esport attitude.. The ONLY benefit of being a better players should NEVER be access to game content, but only that your loot gets split up with smaller groups..  If a guild of 20 elite raid snobs take down a dragon, your odds of getting loot increase over the guy in a 60 man raid.. That should be the ONLY difference.. EVER..

How would you suggest they provide the same content to all players that keeps people interested and challenged long term? You seem to enjoy throwing out shooter, twitch, esport vague terms as negatives and your reasoning, but there really isn't any. Provide solutions not only problems. How do you let players of 15+ years experience play with 1 week experience players in the same game?

We've also seen WoW become what it is where team work and risk vs reward no longer are needed because of the "let everyone do it all" idea. Not sure if you've played many PVP games, but many are fairly simply and you don't need a spreadsheet and math degree to figure out what works and how to play. Just some are "better" then others and that's life. No reason PVE with some depth couldn't be similar. They've alluded to UI and addons not being able to data mine and track everything, hopefully they stick to it and beyond "hacks" or whatever, it won't be possible. If I don't know how much DPS you or I am doing, the issue is removed quite a lot in a social game.  I"m sorry bro, but the esport attitude is oozing from your paragraphs.. Most everything you have written comes off as "I or WE are BETTER then you" That is not social community gaming, that is esport and PvP mentality..  No offense..  It is crystal clear you want game mechanics that allow better players to be recognized and rewarded for it.. 

Like I said, who cares and what is it to you if 100 newbies take down a dragon that you and 10 buddies did the week before?  Those 100 newbies can roll to see which one is lucky enough to get the uber gear of death, whereas YOU have a better percentage chance of getting it..  Again, the ONLY people that would be against what I suggest are those esport mentalities that hate the idea of weaker players receiving the same rewards by using greater numbers.. 

I'm willing to let some of my ideals take a back seat if it is better for the game and in turn myself. Such as you might not like action combat, but if that will bring in potentially 100s of thousands or even millions of players of the new generation, it might be better if it keeps the game growing for years and years instead of just being a meh game that barely stays profitable to keep the lights on.

There is no ONE way to do games correctly and there isn't just ONE type of player/community. SOE has to look out for themselves and going after the biggest slice could work or not. So far, EQN looks like it can appeal to the masses without being a total mindless experience (WoW grind). Only time will tell if their choices will have good consequences or not.

You say that XYZ are bad for yourself and the community, but I don't see any reasoning beyond your subjective tastes. If you can point out where action/aim targeting, shooter/twitch combat, multi-classing, or whatever random feature you dislike about EQN has resulted in a divided community that would some how all come together otherwise, please let me know.

     I think you are letting your esport attitude fog your vision here, and maybe that is why you refuse to discuss the pro's and con's of shooter style combat.. over other options that are more inclusive then exclusive..   I already pointed out how and why shooter (aim) combat is worse for the community and you ignored it.. ???  Your attitude and opinions remind me of my last raiding guild I hated being in.. It just gulled and chapped my ass, that friends of mine that were not "better" players as you call them were often left OFF raid teams, because they couldn't button mash the sequence of skills for optimal DPS..  Now you want to add in "to hit" shooter mechanics that will make their task in a group even harder, and why?  So you can gloat you are a better player?   I"m smelling esport here.. 

     The ONLY option you have to compensate what YOU want, is to lift any restrictions.. If it takes 100 poor players to dps down a dragon that 20 good players can do, so be it.. Who cares?  I don't.. Problem tho is can the game allow and sustain 100 people fighting without lag issues??   Who knows yet..  I prefer combat that is more cerebral, not how fast your reaction twitch skills are..  I think EQN is directly targeting MINDLESS grinding, sorry to say..  The only thing in EQN that remotely looks like a thinking persons game is the min/max'ing that will take place with character development.. It won't be long until the spreadsheet techno fans publish "builds" for special roles, and everyone starts to copy them mindlessly..