Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

When Crafting Goes Wrong

24

Comments

  • RandaynRandayn Member UncommonPosts: 904

    I LOVE what this project brings and think it can be really really good...Im sure many have seen me talk this game up, but Im starting to see some things that really have me rethinking my position:

     

    1.  Multiple upon multiple steps to craft always always always means that the cash shop will play some part in it.  PLEASE DONT LET THIS HAPPEN!!!

    2.  Too much focus on PVP....another cash shop winner when it comes to FTP games.  

     

    Hopefully, Im overthinking this...but I have my doubts.  This is the one game I've drooled over...would suck if it turns into a futuristic AA....

    image
  • AlumicardAlumicard Member UncommonPosts: 388
    Originally posted by Randayn

    I LOVE what this project brings and think it can be really really good...Im sure many have seen me talk this game up, but Im starting to see some things that really have me rethinking my position:

     

    1.  Multiple upon multiple steps to craft always always always means that the cash shop will play some part in it.  PLEASE DONT LET THIS HAPPEN!!!

    2.  Too much focus on PVP....another cash shop winner when it comes to FTP games.  

     

    Hopefully, Im overthinking this...but I have my doubts.  This is the one game I've drooled over...would suck if it turns into a futuristic AA....

    @ 1. I doubt it. in the other thread they said they wont sell any materials or anything that will screw the economy

    @ 2. as long as the cash shop is just cosmetic then the worst that could happen to PvP is you kill someone that looks 3 times as good as you. Like you would punch Bratt Pitt in the face in real life, I can think of worse things :D

     

    Meanwhile I continued my quest of understanding crafting or at least making it work at bit more and once you get the hang of it, it really isnt that crazy. Still working on the whole "Refine Ore" thing but the basics are more or less understandable. Bought the alpha access on steam a few days ago and played about 20h so once it goes live I doubt people will have problems with it after a week. It just takes some time to get used to the system but once it clicks (or you find the right tutorials/wikis) it isnt that hard.

  • movros99movros99 Member UncommonPosts: 125
    Originally posted by JC-Smith

    There are some upcoming ease of use features which will make things a bit easier without sacrificing complexity. The biggest problem right now for new crafters is generally there are components and they don't know how to make them. Combine that with peoples natural instinct to try to do everything on their own, which is an uphill battle in a game like this (by design).

    I'd recommend this site for anyone still finding their way in crafting: http://aena.at/craftmap/

     

    Thanks for posting this JC-Smith.

     

    I agree with the OP.  I like a deep crafting system, but the basic items should be easy enough to figure out.  "A day to learn, and I lifetime to master" type of thinking should be in place.  

  • Stuka1000Stuka1000 Member UncommonPosts: 955
    Originally posted by JC-Smith
    Originally posted by Anireth

    No idea about Repop overall, but that crafting map looks ridiculous. Like 5 steps for bandages, and 13 for a standard armor? I played several games with an economy completely provided by players. Crafting was like 3 steps usually. Get raw leather, make leather, make leather armor.  Or take cloth, make canvas, take iron bars and make rod to hold canvas, combine.

    I think your reading the craftmap wrong. A Bandage is simple: Cloth + Sterilization. Those are the ingredients.

    The sub-ingredients are an ease of use thing to tell you which ingredients can be used to make each. So there are 6 types of Cloth in the game and 4 types of Sterilizing Agents (one of which you can buy from npc vendors). Now the cloth can only be crafted. 

    If you try to craft everything on your own, your going to make things difficult on yourself. Instead you should buy some cloth (from players) and sterilizing agents (from players or the vendors). When you view things in the charts they always look more complex.

    This unfortunately is where the game will commit suicide.  In order for this type of system to work the game needs a large population of players and for a great number of those players to be invested in crafting to some degree.  To simplify that look at a game like Ao which now has a very low population.  It is impossible to get the various buffs needed to twink into the higher tier implants or twink into weapons and armour that are a few levels higher than your toon.  Both of these things were doable when the pop was high.  All the classes relied on each other to some degree so when the pop falls the entire house of cards crumbles.

  • JC-SmithJC-Smith Member UncommonPosts: 421
    Originally posted by Stuka1000
    This unfortunately is where the game will commit suicide.  In order for this type of system to work the game needs a large population of players and for a great number of those players to be invested in crafting to some degree.  To simplify that look at a game like Ao which now has a very low population.  It is impossible to get the various buffs needed to twink into the higher tier implants or twink into weapons and armour that are a few levels higher than your toon.  Both of these things were doable when the pop was high.  All the classes relied on each other to some degree so when the pop falls the entire house of cards crumbles.

    The game will be F2P. Low populations are not really something we're concerned with.

    The truth is, a lot of players enjoy the typical do it yourself crafting. But there are also a lot of games which provide that. There are very few which do what we are doing. That will be a turn off for some and a selling point for others. But in the end Repop is designed to be a social oriented game. The more ways we can encourage players to interact with one another, the better IMO.

    Most MMOs come in with dreams of WoW type numbers and trying to reach the largest number of players. Obviously, player counts are important for profitability. But the truth is your competing with a lot of other studios making a game that is very similar to yours when you go that route. The route we're taking will not appeal to as large of a percentage of players, but the players who enjoy these features will generally play longer because these types of games tend to be more social (more social bonds to keep you there) and there are simply less options to jump ship to.

  • CaldrinCaldrin Member UncommonPosts: 4,505

    I think the crafting system in this is great.. the game goes live people will be buying most items via the auction system..

    If you want to be a bandage crafter you dont need to be able to make all the componants yourself as well you just buy in the parts you need from the auction house or maybe someone in your guild is awesome at making cloth so you just go to him all the time..

     

  • Threatlevel0Threatlevel0 Member UncommonPosts: 179
    Originally posted by Nemesis7884                                                                                                                                                               - but harvesting / questing alone is very boring...this is especially the case because combat is just plain boring, clumsy, unresponsive, floaty - all the bad u got it...

    its bearable (but no fun) with ranged weapons - but with melee its unplayable...thats what u need to fix - make the combat fun, this has to be the nr 1 target before anything else...

     

    This. ^

     

    Boring, clumsy, unresponsive, floaty combat.   

     

    I loved SWG but I didn't even craft, even though that's what it primarily gets lauded for.    I just enjoyed the player driven economy, large open world PvP, and Bounty Hunting.     

     

    So far though the combat has kept me from even playing the Alpha.   It's just not worth attempting.   And is there even going to be player Bounty Hunting?   =/       I'm not really impressed as others seem to be in Alpha.   I actually enjoyed the SWG class skillset system over the more UO approach here.   Oh well, I'll give it more time and a fair shake from me, but that combat has got to change or I'm not even going to bother trying.  

  • CaldrinCaldrin Member UncommonPosts: 4,505

    I have not found the combat boring, floaty of clumsy...

     

    I must admit I have only played for a few hours max as I dont want to spoil the game for release but I find the combat to be just as enjoyable as any other tab target based mmo out there.

  • rodarinrodarin Member EpicPosts: 2,611

    spent a little time in the tutorials now in the starter town. But the crafting does seem a bit tedious.

     

    Hope it doesnt turn out to be another game with a great concept but horrible implementation. AT least in terms of crafting.

     

    The tutorial is scary though since you need about 5 components ot make something as simple as a buf for a starter pistol. How many components and steps for something really intricate? And how many crafters will you need to make them?

  • JC-SmithJC-Smith Member UncommonPosts: 421
    Originally posted by rodarin
    The tutorial is scary though since you need about 5 components ot make something as simple as a buf for a starter pistol. How many components and steps for something really intricate? And how many crafters will you need to make them?

    Fittings are actually one of the most complex recipes due to how resource attributes and such work. That's part of why they needed a tutorial.

  • Stuka1000Stuka1000 Member UncommonPosts: 955
    Originally posted by JC-Smith
    Originally posted by Stuka1000
    This unfortunately is where the game will commit suicide.  In order for this type of system to work the game needs a large population of players and for a great number of those players to be invested in crafting to some degree.  To simplify that look at a game like Ao which now has a very low population.  It is impossible to get the various buffs needed to twink into the higher tier implants or twink into weapons and armour that are a few levels higher than your toon.  Both of these things were doable when the pop was high.  All the classes relied on each other to some degree so when the pop falls the entire house of cards crumbles.

    The game will be F2P. Low populations are not really something we're concerned with.

    The truth is, a lot of players enjoy the typical do it yourself crafting. But there are also a lot of games which provide that. There are very few which do what we are doing. That will be a turn off for some and a selling point for others. But in the end Repop is designed to be a social oriented game. The more ways we can encourage players to interact with one another, the better IMO.

    Most MMOs come in with dreams of WoW type numbers and trying to reach the largest number of players. Obviously, player counts are important for profitability. But the truth is your competing with a lot of other studios making a game that is very similar to yours when you go that route. The route we're taking will not appeal to as large of a percentage of players, but the players who enjoy these features will generally play longer because these types of games tend to be more social (more social bonds to keep you there) and there are simply less options to jump ship to.

    Don't get me wrong, as a vet SWG crafter I like the complexity rather than the WoW style EZ mode.  That was also reliant on other players to a degree and is still the poster boy for crafting in MMO's.  Your system however appears to take that complexity to the Nth degree, which is fine if the pop is there to support it.  Like all games though, at some point in it's life; 3 months, 6 months 3 years, whenever, the pop will fall to a level that renders the system unusable, like my example of buffs in Ao, that's F2P now as well.  When this happens there needs to be a contingency in place so that the remaining players don't get frustrated at the prospect of nobody left that makes the components they need.  The more layers of complexity that exist the harder it will be for that contingency to exist.

  • xpiherxpiher Member UncommonPosts: 3,310
    Originally posted by Threatlevel0
    Originally posted by Nemesis7884                                                                                                                                                               - but harvesting / questing alone is very boring...this is especially the case because combat is just plain boring, clumsy, unresponsive, floaty - all the bad u got it...

    its bearable (but no fun) with ranged weapons - but with melee its unplayable...thats what u need to fix - make the combat fun, this has to be the nr 1 target before anything else...

     

    This. ^

     

    Boring, clumsy, unresponsive, floaty combat.   

     

    I loved SWG but I didn't even craft, even though that's what it primarily gets lauded for.    I just enjoyed the player driven economy, large open world PvP, and Bounty Hunting.     

     

    So far though the combat has kept me from even playing the Alpha.   It's just not worth attempting.   And is there even going to be player Bounty Hunting?   =/       I'm not really impressed as others seem to be in Alpha.   I actually enjoyed the SWG class skillset system over the more UO approach here.   Oh well, I'll give it more time and a fair shake from me, but that combat has got to change or I'm not even going to bother trying.  

     

    How many alpha's have you been in? Just curious, because this pretty par for the course expect in the extremely rare cases of good combat systems existing in alpha, but those games were either less involved combat wise than repop is OR were built around an FPS system.

    Try playing in action mode. 

    image
    Games:
    Currently playing:Nothing
    Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
    Past games:
    Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
    Xpiher's GW2
    GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
    Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
    AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
    Warhammer - Xpiher

  • xpiherxpiher Member UncommonPosts: 3,310
    Originally posted by Stuka1000
    Originally posted by JC-Smith
    Originally posted by Stuka1000
    This unfortunately is where the game will commit suicide.  In order for this type of system to work the game needs a large population of players and for a great number of those players to be invested in crafting to some degree.  To simplify that look at a game like Ao which now has a very low population.  It is impossible to get the various buffs needed to twink into the higher tier implants or twink into weapons and armour that are a few levels higher than your toon.  Both of these things were doable when the pop was high.  All the classes relied on each other to some degree so when the pop falls the entire house of cards crumbles.

    The game will be F2P. Low populations are not really something we're concerned with.

    The truth is, a lot of players enjoy the typical do it yourself crafting. But there are also a lot of games which provide that. There are very few which do what we are doing. That will be a turn off for some and a selling point for others. But in the end Repop is designed to be a social oriented game. The more ways we can encourage players to interact with one another, the better IMO.

    Most MMOs come in with dreams of WoW type numbers and trying to reach the largest number of players. Obviously, player counts are important for profitability. But the truth is your competing with a lot of other studios making a game that is very similar to yours when you go that route. The route we're taking will not appeal to as large of a percentage of players, but the players who enjoy these features will generally play longer because these types of games tend to be more social (more social bonds to keep you there) and there are simply less options to jump ship to.

    Don't get me wrong, as a vet SWG crafter I like the complexity rather than the WoW style EZ mode.  That was also reliant on other players to a degree and is still the poster boy for crafting in MMO's.  Your system however appears to take that complexity to the Nth degree, which is fine if the pop is there to support it.  Like all games though, at some point in it's life; 3 months, 6 months 3 years, whenever, the pop will fall to a level that renders the system unusable, like my example of buffs in Ao, that's F2P now as well.  When this happens there needs to be a contingency in place so that the remaining players don't get frustrated at the prospect of nobody left that makes the components they need.  The more layers of complexity that exist the harder it will be for that contingency to exist.

     

    Not really. There are just a lot of tiers to the crafting system. 

    image
    Games:
    Currently playing:Nothing
    Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
    Past games:
    Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
    Xpiher's GW2
    GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
    Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
    AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
    Warhammer - Xpiher

  • SpiiderSpiider Member RarePosts: 1,135
    I love teh crafting system, it finally adds complexity to something that was "put a into b to get c". Crafting in repop is more complex than swg (and thats coming from swg veteran and backer).

    No fate but what we make, so make me a ham sandwich please.

  • rodarinrodarin Member EpicPosts: 2,611
    Originally posted by Spiider
    I love teh crafting system, it finally adds complexity to something that was "put a into b to get c". Crafting in repop is more complex than swg (and thats coming from swg veteran and backer).

    Thats the point though. Its too complex especially for simple things. Bandages arent the only thing that is 'simple' that requires 2 or 3 professions to make mats for a seemingly beginner item. I fooled around with stuff yesterday (after some quest people were invisible) and some of the stuff is crazy. 

     

    Its still Alpha but I doubt the system will change that much, and by the looks of some things unless they start getting sold by NPCs there isnt any 'fix' to some of them if they arent getting made by players. Other than making an alt yourself and making them.

     

    But it could also be a case of being completely new to the game and not knowing all the little loopholes you can have to get around some of these things.

     

    But with such a specialized crafting system if youre ultra specialized and high end and you dont have another person making the ultra specialized item you need then youre S.O.L. Because making an alt and getting them into that specific specialization is maybe not even worth it for that singular component.

     

    Time will tell I guess. But on the surface it is extremely intricate.

  • ForgrimmForgrimm Member EpicPosts: 3,069
    Don't get me wrong, I love crafting in mmo's, but I have to agree with the OP, the amount of ingredients that go into crafting does seem like overkill. For example, to make a single bar stool, you need 4 different ingredients that are comprised of a total of 12 different sub-ingredients http://aena.at/craftmap/blueprint107.html
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,857
    Originally posted by Randayn

    I LOVE what this project brings and think it can be really really good...Im sure many have seen me talk this game up, but Im starting to see some things that really have me rethinking my position:

     

    1.  Multiple upon multiple steps to craft always always always means that the cash shop will play some part in it.  PLEASE DONT LET THIS HAPPEN!!!

    2.  Too much focus on PVP....another cash shop winner when it comes to FTP games.  

     

    Hopefully, Im overthinking this...but I have my doubts.  This is the one game I've drooled over...would suck if it turns into a futuristic AA....

    This is my concern right here. It's not just about a direct "connection" Selling crafting mats directly from the Cash Shop. But also indirect methods such as through trading or some other way to convert cash shop items in to other stuff like crafting mats. That would undermine the economy.

  • xpiherxpiher Member UncommonPosts: 3,310
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Randayn

    I LOVE what this project brings and think it can be really really good...Im sure many have seen me talk this game up, but Im starting to see some things that really have me rethinking my position:

     

    1.  Multiple upon multiple steps to craft always always always means that the cash shop will play some part in it.  PLEASE DONT LET THIS HAPPEN!!!

    2.  Too much focus on PVP....another cash shop winner when it comes to FTP games.  

     

    Hopefully, Im overthinking this...but I have my doubts.  This is the one game I've drooled over...would suck if it turns into a futuristic AA....

    This is my concern right here. It's not just about a direct "connection" Selling crafting mats directly from the Cash Shop. But also indirect methods such as through trading or some other way to convert cash shop items in to other stuff like crafting mats. That would undermine the economy.

    I don't think it undermines the economy. 

    image
    Games:
    Currently playing:Nothing
    Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
    Past games:
    Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
    Xpiher's GW2
    GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
    Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
    AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
    Warhammer - Xpiher

  • JC-SmithJC-Smith Member UncommonPosts: 421
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    This is my concern right here. It's not just about a direct "connection" Selling crafting mats directly from the Cash Shop. But also indirect methods such as through trading or some other way to convert cash shop items in to other stuff like crafting mats. That would undermine the economy.

    Don't know how many times we can say the same thing. Won't happen.

  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 9,004

    Someone may have mentioned this as I didn't read every post but in SWG it did work because a lot of players specialized.  Some in gathering raw materials.  Some in putting together backpacks which contained all the resources you needed to craft certain types items.  resources, components, finished items, were available in auction terminals or you could scan the merchants forum for what you needed, then buy through forum auction and pickup at their vendor terminal, or look up local merchants on your map. 

     

    The players who made the best stuff became well known and many just went to them for the best quality items.  My opinion is that for the most part it was a very solid system once it got going.  Like real world shopping some things you heard about from other players, others from browsing the auction terminals, others on the forums, and some from just exploring to see what vendors were selling. Even in addition to drops and questing items.

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Originally posted by xpiher

    Alt will allow people to craft multiple items at the same time since there is nothing stopping people from having more than 1 account. If I was a crafter, this is what I would do. 

    Yeah, but the real question is: Is this really fun?

    OP have a point, simple stuff shouldn't force you to have a bunch of alts. Cool stuff is another matter but we are talking about a simple thing everyone uses here.

    Of course, this is pretty common in MMOs, particularly ones who want a crafting economy but it is a step too far for my taste at least.

    Now, if we are talking about hard to come by advanced gear things are very different though. You don't have a single guy to make a Space shuttle...

  • ChuckanarChuckanar Member UncommonPosts: 210
    To many crafting skills. It is ok in theory but they have taken specializations to far.
  • ArchlyteArchlyte Member RarePosts: 1,405

    Crafting in Repop is an actual full on activity in the game. I understand and commiserate with OP as I have been frustrated with some of the complexity and gathering issues, but I think that if Crafting is going to be something that is rewarding to do long term it has to be as deep as possible.

    There will be many a person who decides crafting isn't worth it, and hopefully they either find something else they like to do or give it another try later.

    I don't believe their is a skill cap for your character, so you can conceivably learn everything, which makes it a matter of time and effort invested. The end result will probably be a lot of dependence as people specialize in building and selling mats, or just sub-components.

    I really hope they don't change the crafting much because once you dumb something down, it rarely goes back to being complex and meaningful.

     

     

     

    MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
  • ArchlyteArchlyte Member RarePosts: 1,405
    Originally posted by Loke666
    Originally posted by xpiher

    Alt will allow people to craft multiple items at the same time since there is nothing stopping people from having more than 1 account. If I was a crafter, this is what I would do. 

    Yeah, but the real question is: Is this really fun?

    OP have a point, simple stuff shouldn't force you to have a bunch of alts. Cool stuff is another matter but we are talking about a simple thing everyone uses here.

    Of course, this is pretty common in MMOs, particularly ones who want a crafting economy but it is a step too far for my taste at least.

    Now, if we are talking about hard to come by advanced gear things are very different though. You don't have a single guy to make a Space shuttle...

    Why would you need alts? Did they put a skill point reservoir in the game to limit your skills?

     

    MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
  • CaldrinCaldrin Member UncommonPosts: 4,505
    Originally posted by Loke666
    Originally posted by xpiher

    Alt will allow people to craft multiple items at the same time since there is nothing stopping people from having more than 1 account. If I was a crafter, this is what I would do. 

    Yeah, but the real question is: Is this really fun?

    OP have a point, simple stuff shouldn't force you to have a bunch of alts. Cool stuff is another matter but we are talking about a simple thing everyone uses here.

    Of course, this is pretty common in MMOs, particularly ones who want a crafting economy but it is a step too far for my taste at least.

    Now, if we are talking about hard to come by advanced gear things are very different though. You don't have a single guy to make a Space shuttle...

    its not forcing you to do anything.. its all designed around playing a game that has lots of other people playing as well.. you will not really want to try and do everything yourself.. if you are making bandages then buy in the materials from the auction system and make them.. A guy that runs a pizza place in real life does not grow and make everything that goes on the pizza he does not spend months growing wheat so he can make a pizza base and so on he buys it all in.. a pizza is quite a simple thing to make when you buy in the componants but not so much if you wanted to make it all yourself.

Sign In or Register to comment.