I hate Freemium models. They're extremely tough to balance. Either they'll be too friendly and they'll have to adjust them later or they'll be too pay-to-win and drive everyone off.
Whatever happened to the good old days of buying a game once and playing it or paying a modest subscription fee to access the complete game?
Let's go back to that.
While I won't pretend I know how the economics of gaming work, I'm assuming the cost difference in putting together a quality product is much greater today. $50-60 box and $10-15/month doesn't seem to be enough to either break even or turn a profit unless a game is hitting millions of players which few seem to do or at least very long.
Do you really honestly believe any Alpha game is worth $150 or even just $20? Do you really think H1Z1 or EQ: Landmark cost millions to make?
You can get the Unreal Engine today for $15 and it comes with everything ready made to make a H1Z1 clone within a couple of months. It even comes with a demo that provides you with BETTER animations and gun-play than H1Z1 has.
This myth of games costing millions of dollars seems to have been burned into the feeble minds of most gamers out there.
I hate Freemium models. They're extremely tough to balance. Either they'll be too friendly and they'll have to adjust them later or they'll be too pay-to-win and drive everyone off.
Whatever happened to the good old days of buying a game once and playing it or paying a modest subscription fee to access the complete game?
Let's go back to that.
While I won't pretend I know how the economics of gaming work, I'm assuming the cost difference in putting together a quality product is much greater today. $50-60 box and $10-15/month doesn't seem to be enough to either break even or turn a profit unless a game is hitting millions of players which few seem to do or at least very long.
Do you really honestly believe any Alpha game is worth $150 or even just $20? Do you really think H1Z1 or EQ: Landmark cost millions to make?
You can get the Unreal Engine today for $15 and it comes with everything ready made to make a H1Z1 clone within a couple of months. It even comes with a demo that provides you with BETTER animations and gun-play than H1Z1 has.
This myth of games costing millions of dollars seems to have been burned into the feeble minds of most gamers out there.
You're right on some points and wrong on others. H1Z1 did not cost millions. EQN does. H1Z1 uses an in-house engine, developed at an R&D cost, which was first used in Planetside 2.
I'd totally accept the argument, in some instances, you can make "a more attractive game" with Unreal, but the argument stops there, because Unreal doesn't have the capacity or power to implement additional elements, like Voxel Farm, as effectively.
EQN includes bought rights from indie developers Storybricks and Voxel Farm. It incorporates the dedicated work of many different kinds of artists like authors and concept artists. You look at Landmark and can say, "well this sucks", and that's fine, that's your opinion. It's a bare-bones rendition of what it should (hopefully will) become, it's not "completed" and it's not EQNext. By the time EQN is done, it will have incorporated thousands of man-hours from coders, developers and artists.
I know you're not particularly interested and I know your next answer will include something along the lines of, "but, but, but...", and it's fine. Your opinion is fine, but please don't skew facts with your opinions and presume everyone else is ignorant.
1. Its a server event everyone can see and has time to run to the event.
2. Event spawns NPC you need to fight to get to the objective, also pulls aggro NPC from all around.
3. Entering the event flags you for PvP so you would have to also fight players to get to the objective
4. Items you got were random and any player could loot it, 10 second count down to loot any player could interrupt to stop the looting of the objective.
IMO, this would be fun. I personally would drop it in the most populated area I could. I also think they need to tweek it a little. The guy that buys the event, should always get some small reward, title, ammo, pots. Something good but nothing huge. Also I think that everyone that takes part in the event should also get a small reward by the level of skill you had in the event. Just my two cents.
I can't even wrap my head around the fact that you seem glad that things are the way they are.
I wouldn't exactly say I'm glad, but I've come to accept reality. Some companies/games do it well, some do it terrible, and I'm hoping SOE/EQN can put something together that is tolerable for a decent size crowd. I accept that for a game to function, it can't be designed with only my ideals in mind.
So basically what you said is you're ok with the fact that people who can't afford to pay 20 or 30 dollars for some item, are getting screwed.
Not at all (at least I didn't mean to). My example of the gold horse would be purely cosmetic. If someone wants to drop $20+ to look different or cooler, good for them. Beyond my ego being hurt, really isn't impacting me at all. Cosmetically, I'm not getting screwed.
Now, don't take me wrong, i'm not one of those people who believe games should be free. I personally like the subscription model. That being said. People play games to have fun, partially to escape from real life stresses. People want to know that its a fair playing ground. Its like if you played football in highschool, and because the other team's players had rich parents, and could afford to pay for some hypothetical magical shoes that let them run 20% faster. Well, you can't afford that so you're stuck being screwed left and right every game because the other person paid for an advantage, or, you can work your ass off for 30 hours of extra work over and above what you already do, just so you can buy these shoes (when that time/effort could have been put into myriad other things).
We aren't all equal. Some have more time, money, or both. Companies can't ignore that or at least shouldn't to keep their backers happy. You are giving an example of P2W or a direct advantage, be it PVP or PVE. While I'm not a fan of direct power boosts such as 20% faster speed being sold, I'll accept it if it is obtainable in game in some form (as long as it isn't crazy difficult) and buying is only a convenience or short cut. Although I'd much prefer cosmetic and side upgrades mainly.
Now, i understand we have to define what is p2w, what is cosmetic, etc.
In the case of mounts, If someone has to grind 30 hours of faction or whatever to get a mount someone can buy in a shop, thats P2W, not cosmetic. Its a minor amount of "win" but its still "win". Now, if all they were doing was buying a SKIN to change an existing mount they've already spent 30 hours grinding faction (or whatever) for, then thats cosmetic. Its not P2W.
Personally, I think it is a lose and people that buy convenience are defeating the purpose of playing, but it's their money. I believe this is where values come into play. How much is your time worth? My disposable income today and amount of free time is quite different then 5, 10, 15 years ago. As I've aged and progressed in real life, my priorities in gaming have changed. Even though I can afford to buy whatever I want, I still don't because it takes away the fun, but I get why people do. If someone can drop $20 easily but not grind 20 hours, I think there should be options. I think it falls on the company to make a game fun enough to play that buying short cuts isn't an answer to poor design.
Dota 2, and LoL, and TF2, etc, only sell truly cosmetic items, and they are EASILY the examples of the most profitable forms of F2P games. Easily. You don't have to spend 20 hours grinding in game to play a certain hero, all of is available from the start. But, if you want that swanky looking new sword with the flashy graphics, you can pay 2 or 3 bucks for it.
I'll disagree about the "truly" cosmetic deal. TF2 for example releases new weapons which are side upgrades, but they are still unique items that have unique properties that may provide an advantage in a certain situation. But as TF2 is a fairly balanced game, no 1 item is usually OP or at least not for long. Someone can still buy an item before it is craftable or before lady luck lets it drop. I wouldn't call it P2W, but it is a bit different then buying a hat or a costume that has no impact on gameplay. I believe MOBAs sell "boosts" of different kinds, but I've never bought anything from them so don't know.
But you might need to "grind" in TF2 by simply playing until something magically drops or do whatever is necessary to obtain an item through crafting/trade which is a mini-game in itself.
Beyond the initial addition of the store, most seem to really enjoy and have little issue with Valves cash shops. They are straight forward, don't provide P2W items or at least not where someone can just keep dumping cash to victory and overall it is fair to all. Someone that spends $0 on TF2 can still have a great experience. I believe this design can be applied to mmorpgs and PS2-Landmark and even H1Z1 really aren't to far away.
There's also the issue of cost. Blizz charges like 20 or 25 dollars for a mount. with 25 i can buy like 10 full sets for different heroes in Dota 2. Not just single items, but head to toe changes to the way the character looks.
Had to go check since I haven't played WoW since TBC, but doesn't seem like the cash shop stuff is very P2W. Mostly cosmetic, even the pricey mounts. Unless I'm missing something, so many items in WoW.
But are you saying it is okay for micro-transactions if they are cheaper? Personally doesn't matter to me, but I think cheaper is better. I know I've bought more cheap stuff in TF2 then the pricier items, I have my own limit and values as to what I'll spend for virtual goods. Either way is fine to me though.
If someone wants to spend $100 for a Unicorn mount that is exactly the same as my brown horse, good for them. Much like giving titles and what not to people that Beta test or buy Collectors or Early Access, really don't feel harmed when someone else is supporting the game I play, no harm in them being able to show it off. Now if the unicorn ran 50% faster or a beta tag gave the +5% damage, that would be a different story.
As seen with the change to ESO today, it should be clear where the genre/industry is going. I don't have access to company books, but I'm assuming that changes and decisions to go F2P, B2P, with or with out a cash shop aren't done randomly. Companies appear to see it as the better or only option currently. Where they go with it is on them.
SOE could make EQN a huge paywall filled disaster, P2W boosts for everything, or find a decent balance and not piss everyone off. Who knows, time will tell. Personally I believe they appear to be going in the right direction. Player Studio is probably going to be a pretty significant part of the puzzle eventually which many companies don't have. Valve and creative fans make a lot of money from fan creations. No reason this can't work with EQN/Landmark if fully utilized. EQ/EQ2/PS2 have the studio as well, but I think it will finally really be something with a modern mmorpg behind it.
Do you really honestly believe any Alpha game is worth $150 or even just $20? Do you really think H1Z1 or EQ: Landmark cost millions to make?
Value is subjective and there's that whole supply and demand thing. If someone was willing to pay 1 billion for the only Alpha account, I wouldn't turn them away lol.
I've sadly paid for Collectors Editions which are usually much higher then box cost and have regretted it almost every time.
For Landmark, I paid $60, got a refund as I didn't see the value nor do I have any need to be a backer for a huge company like SOE, ended up buying again for $6-7 on Steam sale. $20 seems very fair for LM/H1Z1 though. They are products that provide potentially endless entertainment. $20 doesn't go very far in real life.
LM/H1Z1 did cost millions to make if you factor in all the time/money spent on the engine and everything else over the years. H1Z1 borrows a lot from PS2, which wasn't free to make. Devs don't work for free last time I checked.
Landmark utilizes 3rd party software/devs and is part of EQN which is a AAA game that is costing millions to make.
You can get the Unreal Engine today for $15 and it comes with everything ready made to make a H1Z1 clone within a couple of months. It even comes with a demo that provides you with BETTER animations and gun-play than H1Z1 has.
Awesome, I wonder why everyone isn't pumping out amazing games. There isn't a lack of talent in the world.
This myth of games costing millions of dollars seems to have been burned into the feeble minds of most gamers out there.
Myth? How much do you think it costs to make a top tier game? While I doubt it is in the 100s of millions for most of them, some do cost quite a lot. SWTOR was 150-200 million I think, ESO was under 200 million, most companies don't opening say exacts but I'm assuming there are ways to figure it out.
While SOE has a few hundred employees, lets say 50 EQN devs making $25k for 5 years. That's over 6 million. Factor in licensing Voxel Farm and Storybricks, any other license they use, hardware, and the price goes higher. Then assume devs make a bit more then 25k a year (San Diego is pretty damn expensive) and that they have more then 50 on staff. Then toss in marketing-advertising-convention booth rentals, yadda yadda yadda.
Maybe my math is way off, but I don't see them making the game for $15.
PS: Save yourself the reply: "Then why don't you make a game?". Because i have a great paying job and i am not a game developer.
As I said above though, why don't we see 5, 10, 100 Unity based games popping up every year that are AAA mmorpgs or whatever genre? I'm not a big engine buff, but besides Hearthstone, are they any unity games pulling in the crowds/money that aren't for mobile? Must be something we are missing from the game making equation...
Not at all (at least I didn't mean to). My example of the gold horse would be purely cosmetic. If someone wants to drop $20+ to look different or cooler, good for them. Beyond my ego being hurt, really isn't impacting me at all. Cosmetically, I'm not getting screwed. I have to ask, why would your ego be hurt because someone has something you don't? Is this a Freudian look into how you feel about classes too? Someone has a spell you don't?
While I'm not a fan of direct power boosts such as 20% faster speed being sold, I'll accept it if it is obtainable in game in some form (as long as it isn't crazy difficult) and buying is only a convenience or short cut. Although I'd much prefer cosmetic and side upgrades mainly. I'm sure EQN's cash shop will be littered with many NON cosmetic options, just like games similar to World of Tanks
( snip poster ) In the case of mounts, If someone has to grind 30 hours of faction or whatever to get a mount someone can buy in a shop, thats P2W, not cosmetic. Its a minor amount of "win" but its still "win". Now, if all they were doing was buying a SKIN to change an existing mount they've already spent 30 hours grinding faction (or whatever) for, then thats cosmetic. Its not P2W. AGREED 110%
Personally, I think it is a lose and people that buy convenience are defeating the purpose of playing, but it's their money. I think there should be options. I think it falls on the company to make a game fun enough to play that buying short cuts isn't an answer to poor design.And there we go,, the crux of the problem.. F2P games have to design pay walls, to encourage players to pay $$.. YES, I agree that if the game is FUN from newbie to max, there should be no incentive to short cut.. That being the case will EQN deliberately avoid FUN in tiers 1-4, only to get people to pay to get to tier 5 the quickest? Something to think about..
Originally posted by Allein
Originally posted by Bascola
Do you really honestly believe any Alpha game is worth $150 or even just $20? Do you really think H1Z1 or EQ: Landmark cost millions to make?
Value is subjective and there's that whole supply and demand thing. Very True
LM/H1Z1 did cost millions to make if you factor in all the time/money spent on the engine and everything else over the years. H1Z1 borrows a lot from PS2, which wasn't free to make. Devs don't work for free last time I checked.The engine being used by Landmark/ EQN and H1Z1 has been paid for already, there is NO in house cost associated with it.. SOE is not paying an outside 3rd party for the engine in the newer games.. Example: When Ford designs a new engine for their F150, that cost is applied to that F150, (Paid in Full), and if the following years they wish to use that same engine for other models you can't apply that already paid for cost to them.
Landmark utilizes 3rd party software/devs and is part of EQN which is a AAA game that is costing millions to make. True to some degree, and all MMO cost millions, the question I would have is how many millions? 10? 30? 50? 100?
You can get the Unreal Engine today for $15 and it comes with everything ready made to make a H1Z1 clone within a couple of months. It even comes with a demo that provides you with BETTER animations and gun-play than H1Z1 has.
Awesome, I wonder why everyone isn't pumping out amazing games. There isn't a lack of talent in the world. I was not aware of UE and the details, btw they upped the price to $19 per month, and 5% of revenues if game is made.. When I have time on my hands I might look into it myself.. I always wanted to create my own playground
This myth of games costing millions of dollars seems to have been burned into the feeble minds of most gamers out there. True to a degree.. Most of that cost is associated to labor which will end up being millions a years.. I base that on 50 employees earning $30k a year.. In the end, you are hovering in that 2-3 million mark per year..
Myth? How much do you think it costs to make a top tier game? While I doubt it is in the 100s of millions for most of them, some do cost quite a lot. SWTOR was 150-200 million I think, ESO was under 200 million, most companies don't opening say exacts but I'm assuming there are ways to figure it out.Which is what they say, and honestly I have to question "why so damn much?".. I think that is an inflated number, but wow.. What a waste of $$$ if it was that much.. I will say I think devs spend way too many labor hours on projects and art that is NOT necessary..
While SOE has a few hundred employees, lets say 50 EQN devs making $25k for 5 years. That's over 6 million. Factor in licensing Voxel Farm and Storybricks, any other license they use, hardware, and the price goes higher. Then assume devs make a bit more then 25k a year (San Diego is pretty damn expensive) and that they have more then 50 on staff. Then toss in marketing-advertising-convention booth rentals, yadda yadda yadda. Location, Location, Location.. Yes, the California coast has insane labor rates and cost of living.. and you know something.. Do you have to live and work in California to be able to program computers? I bet if you move that programmer from California to Kentucky for example, he can still do his job.. In my opinion you can design a good AAA mmo in the ballpark of $5 million a year, and if it takes longer then 5 years, I have the wrong people working for me.. lol
PS: Save yourself the reply: "Then why don't you make a game?". Because i have a great paying job and i am not a game developer.
As I said above though, why don't we see 5, 10, 100 Unity based games popping up every year that are AAA mmorpgs or whatever genre? I'm not a big engine buff, but besides Hearthstone, are they any unity games pulling in the crowds/money that aren't for mobile? Must be something we are missing from the game making equation... Well actually, it takes too much of a full staff to really push a AAA mmo, but there are hundreds of mini games and aps popping up each year by small companies and projects.. I'm thinking of doing that myself in the future if I can find the time..
I have to ask, why would your ego be hurt because someone has something you don't? Is this a Freudian look into how you feel about classes too? Someone has a spell you don't?
Oh not at all. As I've said multiple times, I honestly don't care what others do (what? but I'm all about esports!). Simply giving an example of what I've seen people say. I've seen people complain that X is available in a cash shop that provides no benefit to them beyond vanity. To me this is their ego being hurt that they can't/won't pay for something that they put a lot of value on. Some call cosmetics P2W, again, only thing winning/losing is ego.
I'm sure EQN's cash shop will be littered with many NON cosmetic options, just like games similar to World of Tanks
I'm sure it won't because insert X game that has no influence on EQN...
And there we go,, the crux of the problem.. F2P games have to design pay walls, to encourage players to pay $$.. YES, I agree that if the game is FUN from newbie to max, there should be no incentive to short cut.. That being the case will EQN deliberately avoid FUN in tiers 1-4, only to get people to pay to get to tier 5 the quickest? Something to think about..
I agree this is a problem and some companies handle it well (Valve) and others don't (SOE with EQ/EQ2 for a long time). There doesn't HAVE to be pay walls if a game and the shop are designed well, it is a byproduct of poor decisions, not the system itself. They've said that all Tiers and content should be enjoyable and that players shouldn't "beat" or outpace content like other games, so I'm highly doubting the fun will be in T5 only, there is no "end game" to EQN.
The engine being used by Landmark/ EQN and H1Z1 has been paid for already, there is NO in house cost associated with it.. SOE is not paying an outside 3rd party for the engine in the newer games..
SOE is a big company, not sure each game is self contained when it comes to profits/costs, but I guess it is possible. Regardless, there are still devs and resource costs, despite the engine existing. And all of the games take the engine in a different direction. H1Z1 isn't a mod of PS2.
True to some degree, and all MMO cost millions, the question I would have is how many millions? 10? 30? 50? 100?
Does it matter? 1 or 100, it isn't free. Unless the devs are eating lobster for lunch and renting private jets to fly home every day, I'm assuming they spend wisely. (Smed and plane fiasco would lead me to believe they don't take private jets)
Which is what they say, and honestly I have to question "why so damn much?".. I think that is an inflated number, but wow.. What a waste of $$$ if it was that much.. I will say I think devs spend way too many labor hours on projects and art that is NOT necessary..
Which you are free to do, but I'm not in the armchair game developer business, so doesn't really interest me. SWTOR/ESO going B2P after spending who knows how much money (that awesome cinematic wasn't cheap) says something about the whole sub dependent view.
Location, Location, Location.. Yes, the California coast has insane labor rates and cost of living.. and you know something.. Do you have to live and work in California to be able to program computers? I bet if you move that programmer from California to Kentucky for example, he can still do his job.. In my opinion you can design a good AAA mmo in the ballpark of $5 million a year, and if it takes longer then 5 years, I have the wrong people working for me.. lol
Again, this a totally different subject and we can play "they should do this if they were smart" all day. I live about 20 min from SOE HQ in San Diego and looking at the weather today and Kentucky, easy choice
According to wiki, they have studios in Austin, Denver, and Seattle, but San Diego is the home of EQ.
Well actually, it takes too much of a full staff to really push a AAA mmo, but there are hundreds of mini games and aps popping up each year by small companies and projects.. I'm thinking of doing that myself in the future if I can find the time..
Simply pointing out the flaw in the "it's so easy" view the poster seems to have. Obviously it takes quite a lot to not only make a game, but to get it out the door, and then maintain it. A great deal of the work involved isn't making races or cool looking armor, it is the server end and getting it where people can actually play the game and then not have a smoking computer when 5 people come on screen. I know very little about game development, but common sense isn't too hard to come by.
Comments
Do you really honestly believe any Alpha game is worth $150 or even just $20? Do you really think H1Z1 or EQ: Landmark cost millions to make?
You can get the Unreal Engine today for $15 and it comes with everything ready made to make a H1Z1 clone within a couple of months. It even comes with a demo that provides you with BETTER animations and gun-play than H1Z1 has.
This myth of games costing millions of dollars seems to have been burned into the feeble minds of most gamers out there.
______________________________________________________________________
PS: Save yourself the reply: "Then why don't you make a game?". Because i have a great paying job and i am not a game developer.
You're right on some points and wrong on others. H1Z1 did not cost millions. EQN does. H1Z1 uses an in-house engine, developed at an R&D cost, which was first used in Planetside 2.
I'd totally accept the argument, in some instances, you can make "a more attractive game" with Unreal, but the argument stops there, because Unreal doesn't have the capacity or power to implement additional elements, like Voxel Farm, as effectively.
EQN includes bought rights from indie developers Storybricks and Voxel Farm. It incorporates the dedicated work of many different kinds of artists like authors and concept artists. You look at Landmark and can say, "well this sucks", and that's fine, that's your opinion. It's a bare-bones rendition of what it should (hopefully will) become, it's not "completed" and it's not EQNext. By the time EQN is done, it will have incorporated thousands of man-hours from coders, developers and artists.
I know you're not particularly interested and I know your next answer will include something along the lines of, "but, but, but...", and it's fine. Your opinion is fine, but please don't skew facts with your opinions and presume everyone else is ignorant.
If they did it just like H1Z1 I would be fine.
1. Its a server event everyone can see and has time to run to the event.
2. Event spawns NPC you need to fight to get to the objective, also pulls aggro NPC from all around.
3. Entering the event flags you for PvP so you would have to also fight players to get to the objective
4. Items you got were random and any player could loot it, 10 second count down to loot any player could interrupt to stop the looting of the objective.
IMO, this would be fun. I personally would drop it in the most populated area I could. I also think they need to tweek it a little. The guy that buys the event, should always get some small reward, title, ammo, pots. Something good but nothing huge. Also I think that everyone that takes part in the event should also get a small reward by the level of skill you had in the event. Just my two cents.
As seen with the change to ESO today, it should be clear where the genre/industry is going. I don't have access to company books, but I'm assuming that changes and decisions to go F2P, B2P, with or with out a cash shop aren't done randomly. Companies appear to see it as the better or only option currently. Where they go with it is on them.
SOE could make EQN a huge paywall filled disaster, P2W boosts for everything, or find a decent balance and not piss everyone off. Who knows, time will tell. Personally I believe they appear to be going in the right direction. Player Studio is probably going to be a pretty significant part of the puzzle eventually which many companies don't have. Valve and creative fans make a lot of money from fan creations. No reason this can't work with EQN/Landmark if fully utilized. EQ/EQ2/PS2 have the studio as well, but I think it will finally really be something with a modern mmorpg behind it.