My friend just posted on their forum and was treated like garbage by some of the posters there that acted like douches towards someone asking for in formation, so he is passing in this game.
That is one of he reasons I ask my questions here where people are more level headed and tend to be more nice towards those asking questions.
There are a bunch of clowns on Crowfall forums. I suggested a few of these things from this thread in a thread over there and a few guys were ultra combative about it like I insulted their religion. Its so sad to see pvp fans get stuck in this closed minded state where all they expect from a game is for someone to remake an old game. Especially when these old games they put on pedestals were often popular because they were new and an innovation at the time and had no direct competition.
My friend just posted on their forum and was treated like garbage by some of the posters there that acted like douches towards someone asking for in formation, so he is passing in this game.
That is one of he reasons I ask my questions here where people are more level headed and tend to be more nice towards those asking questions.
Was it the dude who's first post was something along the lines of:
"PvP centric games always fail
PvP centric games always fail"
Yeah that dude got owned pretty fast and left. But you have to admit it's a silly way to introduce yourself on a PvP centric MMO forum...
TBH, I'm finding the atmosphere over there very jovial. Sure you have the usual "I'm tough cause I dig full loot" people, but what can you do?
Every suggestion you made is the kind of feature I want in a PvP game. The problem is, even if the combat is great, those things alone still won't be enough to make an MMO people will want to play long term. There are games that exist right now you can play that have almost every feature you're proposing, and they still suck.
An PvP MMO NEEDS to be more than a fantasy backdrop, land ownership and sieging.
They need to build a game from the ground up instead of starting from PvP and building around it. PvP is not a foundation for creating a "virtual world" (their words), its the foundation for a first person shooter. They have to work towards something that actually draws players in and suspends their disbelief. Something that transports the player to another world. A game world that is harsh beyond player vs player combat, that always encourages players to interact with each other. A world where you should think twice about whether another player is better as an ally than an enemy. Then they need to create content in every direction so there is a reason to inhabit this world. Reasons that compel different types of players to take part.
People wonder why pvp communities are so toxic, and I believe the lack of player interdependence in these games is that reason. If you don't need other players for any other reason than the bragging rights of owning the biggest castle, of course no one is going to interact on any sociable level.
The silly hardcore pvper (pssh) mentality is what ruins this subgenre. The false assumption that PvP alone will make for a good PvP game is erroneous. This is coming from someone thats played MMOs and MUDS since the 90s and has played almost every PvP title thats come out since.
A game thats not fun without PvP, won't miraculously become fun with it.
Originally posted by Velocinox And the locust swarm smells another field of crops.
Actually the term Locust in MMO gaming refers to a large group playing MMO's for 1-2 months until all the PvE content is gone then swarming over to the next MMO.
I don't think any truly hardcore pvper would be excited for a game that went closer to wiz101 graphics than hyperrealism lol....That doesn't scream hardcore, grim, or brutal at all...
I don't think any truly hardcore pvper would be excited for a game that went closer to wiz101 graphics than hyperrealism lol....That doesn't scream hardcore, grim, or brutal at all...
Well then you haven't seen Faxion.
Either way, most PvPers really don't give a rats ass about graphics. What matters is game play mechanics and performance. One of the main reasons behind this graphic style could be performance, with less poligons etc game can run much smoother in large scale PvP and on not-so-modern rigs.
I don't think any truly hardcore pvper would be excited for a game that went closer to wiz101 graphics than hyperrealism lol....That doesn't scream hardcore, grim, or brutal at all...
Well then you haven't seen Faxion.
Either way, most PvPers really don't give a rats ass about graphics. What matters is game play mechanics and performance. One of the main reasons behind this graphic style could be performance, with less poligons etc game can run much smoother in large scale PvP and on not-so-modern rigs.
I don't think any truly hardcore pvper would be excited for a game that went closer to wiz101 graphics than hyperrealism lol....That doesn't scream hardcore, grim, or brutal at all...
Well then you haven't seen Faxion.
Either way, most PvPers really don't give a rats ass about graphics. What matters is game play mechanics and performance. One of the main reasons behind this graphic style could be performance, with less poligons etc game can run much smoother in large scale PvP and on not-so-modern rigs.
What's your pvp experience?
I couldn't give a rats ass about graphics in either type of MMO. At this point, permitted the game doesn't look completely clunky and awkward, I'd be thrilled if it could actually provide an immersive experience. I'm tried of playing cheesy MMOs that fail to produce "that feel" that the very first MMOs had. I can tell you it wasn't the graphics that gave players the feeling that they were actually in another world (though they help).
I don't think any truly hardcore pvper would be excited for a game that went closer to wiz101 graphics than hyperrealism lol....That doesn't scream hardcore, grim, or brutal at all...
PVP =/= Hardcore hyper realism or whatever. They can go hand in hand obviously, but I don't need to see blood, guts, nudity, everything shades of brown to have a good PVP experience, or player conflict experience in general. Economy/Politics/Crafting etc aren't really reliant on art style.
Originally posted by caetftl I can tell you game of thrones wouldn't be as popular if it were a disney series...
If you mean the show, I'll agree it wouldn't be as popular with the mainstream because people like sex and blood and what not, but I'd still watch it if it was something like Clone Wars.
Anime is a great example of having extremely graphic "cartoons" that go way beyond Hardcore PVP games or GOT.
Difference between a fan of dark fantasy or realism and being a fan of PVP. Again, they can easily go together, but aren't dependent on one another.
Some of my most memorable PVP experiences were in MUDs in the mid/late 90s. I couldn't see jack
My friend just posted on their forum and was treated like garbage by some of the posters there that acted like douches towards someone asking for in formation, so he is passing in this game.
That is one of he reasons I ask my questions here where people are more level headed and tend to be more nice towards those asking questions.
Yeah unfortunately an open PvP MMO seems to attract a number of people who think that in order to enjoy such a game, you have to be "hardcore". And of course, being "hardcore" generally means being a complete and utter douchebag to others with absolutely zero provocation or reason.
Sadly, those are the kinds of people who make it their sole purpose to run as many others out of the game as they can... all the while wondering why the game's population is stagnating. That is until someone comes along that can drop their ass... then they go into a fit of crying and complaining before they rage-quit, themselves.
I still fail to understand why games makers think it is a smart idea to bring up a game multiple years before release date. Granted all we know from speculation that real development has only been going on 6 months. People these days are not going to wait around for all these games years away from release. Everyone gets excited and after a few months could care less.
Originally posted by JemAs666 I still fail to understand why games makers think it is a smart idea to bring up a game multiple years before release date. Granted all we know from speculation that real development has only been going on 6 months. People these days are not going to wait around for all these games years away from release. Everyone gets excited and after a few months could care less.
Its a sad practice, but I'd be willing to bet money that they are drumming up hype to launch an early access alpha/beta test later this year.
The folks associated with Crowfall are some heavy hitters. Perhaps they can come up with a system that will solve the issues that have plagued this type of game. Issues that no one else has come up with answers to. Even then, Koster has been happy to be the Sandbox Theoretician Professor for more than a decade, with no concrete game success in the period since leaving SWG. Who knows how it will go?
Personally, unless they develop some spectacular new systems, I think the game will devolve into the usual problems. There's a sad percentage of PvP players who foul the nest for everyone.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
The folks associated with Crowfall are some heavy hitters. Perhaps they can come up with a system that will solve the issues that have plagued this type of game. Issues that no one else has come up with answers to. Even then, Koster has been happy to be the Sandbox Theoretician Professor for more than a decade, with no concrete game success in the period since leaving SWG. Who knows how it will go?
Personally, unless they develop some spectacular new systems, I think the game will devolve into the usual problems. There's a sad percentage of PvP players who foul the nest for everyone.
The problem with PvP MMOs, and MMOs in general, is not as elusive as most people think. The answer to the problems are in my posts in this very thread. I know thats a bold statement, but hear me out.
I believe developers are taking the wrong approach to creating MMOs today. They are trying to build a game with some sort of gimmick, in this case PvP and conquest, instead of creating a world that actually looks, feels and operates like a world should, and adding PvP and conquest to said world. If the world isn't compelling on its own, PvP isn't going to make it so. Even a Hollywood movie can suspend your disbelief longer than your modern mmorpg. When I first started playing mmos, it was not that way.
I could go into a 10,000 word essay on the virtues of old MMOs versus new games, but it would probably be easier to just give you an example. Read the tenets and features from the Pantheon Game Summary. Regardless of how you feel about the type of mmo he is making (PvE focus) or what you think about McQuaid, its pretty obvious that his approach to creating a virtual world is totally different than the norm. In short, he is more concerned about making a believable experience from literally the ground, up. Stuff like raid content, pvp and the other common features in modern games should come second to the world itself, and its inhabitants. Its something other developers need to incorporate if they want their games to last.
Originally posted by JemAs666 I still fail to understand why games makers think it is a smart idea to bring up a game multiple years before release date. Granted all we know from speculation that real development has only been going on 6 months. People these days are not going to wait around for all these games years away from release. Everyone gets excited and after a few months could care less.
For indie studios, drumming up excitement results in more funding, I assume. They already have over 2million from somewhere, if 100k sign up for Beta for a game that doesn't even have much revealed, backer might go "Hey, they might be on to something, have some more of my cash." As well as allowing fans a chance to either support through financial or feedback as well, which both can come in quite handy. I've never played a game that turned out better due to ignoring the fans suggestions before release.
As far as waiting around, people aren't waiting outside the door of the studio with a sleeping bag. If there is something else to do like play another game, read a book, go for a walk, nothing stopping fans from doing so and following a game. When it releases all that excitement comes back instantly.
Although in relation to Crowfall, I was waiting for Shadowbane to come out, took forever and decided to jump into DAoC and ended up not switching to SB once it launched. Partly because I really enjoyed DAoC, but also because SB didn't live up to my expectations. If it had, I would of been all over it, despite the long delay and the time I'd sunk into another game.
Players are fickle and whatever is shiny will get attention. Wait or no wait. Those that lose total interest due to time are probably the same ones that get hyped up then bored after a month because their expectations were unrealistic. Some common sense and living in reality is needed to enjoy gaming.
Does anyone have experience with EVE and it's community? While I know the basics of the game, it isn't my cup of tea because of the setting-UI-mechanics, but I really like the overall concepts and what not. As it seems to be one of the few older games that actually grew over the years and has dedicated players, I'm curious if this experience could be brought to a fantasy game such as Crowfall if the systems in place were similar.
PVP games over the last 10 years or so have attracted and bred a certain type of player that really don't add anything to the community or experience beyond negativity. A lot of which I believe is due to little to no accountability and most PVP being mindless murder.
Does EVE deal with this issue better? Are there lots of people flying around blowing up others for the lulz?
As seen with earlier games, if there are some restrictions or accountability in place along with some depth to the game beyond kill or be killed, it seems to deter folks from just running around stabbing each others like zombies with knives.
No game will probably reflect any real "virtual world" where everyone is playing nicely (be it they are stabbing you in the face or not at the moment) but I would like to see it at least get close.
The problem with PvP MMOs, and MMOs in general, is not as elusive as most people think. The answer to the problems are in my posts in this very thread. I know thats a bold statement, but hear me out.
I believe developers are taking the wrong approach to creating MMOs today. They are trying to build a game with some sort of gimmick, in this case PvP and conquest, instead of creating a world that actually looks, feels and operates like a world should, and adding PvP and conquest to said world. If the world isn't compelling on its own, PvP isn't going to make it so. Even a Hollywood movie can suspend your disbelief longer than your modern mmorpg. When I first started playing mmos, it was not that way.
I could go into a 10,000 word essay on the virtues of old MMOs versus new games, but it would probably be easier to just give you an example. Read the tenets and features from the Pantheon Game Summary. Regardless of how you feel about the type of mmo he is making (PvE focus) or what you think about McQuaid, its pretty obvious that his approach to creating a virtual world is totally different than the norm. In short, he is more concerned about making a believable experience from literally the ground, up. Stuff like raid content, pvp and the other common features in modern games should come second to the world itself, and its inhabitants. Its something other developers need to incorporate if they want their games to last.
I agree. A compelling game world is very important. I think earlier games have done that better than more modern ones. IMO the best were EQ1 and DAoC.
They were very diverse worlds, didn't have instances (at least their original versions), didn't have fast travel paths, each part of the world had it's own feel, had a lot of depth etc..
The folks associated with Crowfall are some heavy hitters. Perhaps they can come up with a system that will solve the issues that have plagued this type of game. Issues that no one else has come up with answers to. Even then, Koster has been happy to be the Sandbox Theoretician Professor for more than a decade, with no concrete game success in the period since leaving SWG. Who knows how it will go?
Personally, unless they develop some spectacular new systems, I think the game will devolve into the usual problems. There's a sad percentage of PvP players who foul the nest for everyone.
The problem with PvP MMOs, and MMOs in general, is not as elusive as most people think. The answer to the problems are in my posts in this very thread. I know thats a bold statement, but hear me out.
I believe developers are taking the wrong approach to creating MMOs today. They are trying to build a game with some sort of gimmick, in this case PvP and conquest, instead of creating a world that actually looks, feels and operates like a world should, and adding PvP and conquest to said world. If the world isn't compelling on its own, PvP isn't going to make it so. Even a Hollywood movie can suspend your disbelief longer than your modern mmorpg. When I first started playing mmos, it was not that way.
I could go into a 10,000 word essay on the virtues of old MMOs versus new games, but it would probably be easier to just give you an example. Read the tenets and features from the Pantheon Game Summary. Regardless of how you feel about the type of mmo he is making (PvE focus) or what you think about McQuaid, its pretty obvious that his approach to creating a virtual world is totally different than the norm. In short, he is more concerned about making a believable experience from literally the ground, up. Stuff like raid content, pvp and the other common features in modern games should come second to the world itself, and its inhabitants. Its something other developers need to incorporate if they want their games to last.
I know exactly what you're saying, because I've sensed the same thing myself.
There are people out there who actually argue against a MMO being created as a "world" first, and a "game" second, but it needn't be a bad thing - and if the MMO is well-designed, it isn't.
It's a matter of presentation.
To try and whittle it down to the simplest possible way of explaining it, let me put it this way...
Older MMOs had game content built around, and anchored in, a well established and crafted world. The world was as much "a character" as any NPC or mob you'd encounter, often with its own stories to tell, through its geography and what the player would encounter there. Everything felt integral, like it belonged there. You'd get the sense that this was a world that was there long before you arrived, and would be there long after you were gone. The world, and everything in it, exists despite your character. They could feel very much like a real world in that way.
Newer MMOs do it the other way around. They're designed as games, and the world built around them serves as little more than a pretty backdrop. They look great, and there's a lot of interesting things to look at, but it's all arbitrary, because of the way the game itself is designed. You could be playing in a world of cardboard boxes, and it would feel just the same - because the world itself is only there as set dressing. In a newer MMO, the world exists for the player. This is magnified by the presence of instances, where everyone's sequestered off into their own private "version" of many locations.
It's a very distinct difference and someone who didn't spend much (if any) time in an older MMO wold probably scoff, and think that sounds absurd, or may fail to see the real difference between the two. But the difference is huge.
Another big difference is how they're approached and played.
Older MMOs used to be about being lost and drawn into a virtual world, where you could go where you wanted, and do what you wanted, within the context of that world. There were paths you could follow, but they weren't nearly so linear, and you weren't guided from point to point to point to point... The fun of those worlds was simply being a part of them, and interacting with others you met. There didn't always have to be some primary, overarching goal to be striving for, such as "getting to level cap". The goal was to log in and have fun doing whatever you ended up doing, be it working on your own progress, helping someone else with theirs, or maybe just seeing what came up and going with the flow.
In older MMOs, the idea of "getting to level cap" was there, but it was a far off, distant goal. It was a vague concept; something people were aware of, but weren't necessarily racing toward. Some raced toward it, but it was more just to compete with other players, not due to some idea that "getting to level cap is what the game is all about". I never heard/read the phrase "the real game starts at level cap" when I played FFXI, AC1 or AC2, Anarchy Online, Shadowbane, DAoC, L2, etc. etc. I didn't start to hear that term 'til WoW came out and started attracting a different kind of player to the genre, whose understanding of MMOs was that they were supposed to be "won", just like the single-player games they'd been playing up 'til that point. Hell, there were people who didn't even know WoW was a MMORPG; to them it was just the next Warcraft game; this is part of what led to people thinking any other MMO they saw was a WoW clone - even when it had been around longer than WoW. They had no idea MMORPGs were a genre prior to that.
Many coming to the genre didn't "get" what MMOs were about, and it was evidenced in the various complaints that started cropping up. "It's too slow", "You can't get around fast enough", "They only don't have an ending because the devs want you to keep playing so they'll keep making money"... so many arguments born from complete ignorance of the genre they were getting into.
And that in itself isn't a problem. I didn't know what a MMORPG was the first time I played one, either. The difference is, rather than resisting and fighting against them, as many in the post-WoW era did, I adapted to them and lost myself in them. I loved feeling lost in a new world.
I can still remember my first hours playing FFXI, which was my 3rd or 4th MMO. I was utterly confused, lost and had no idea who to talk to or what to do. Through the shouts in the area, I could tell many others didn't know either. Yet, no one complained about it. We joked. We shared advice and theories (many of them wrong at that point ) and information. But we played, and we learned and we adapted to this strange new world we'd been dropped into. This was a strange new world, and we had to learn our way in it. No ! or ? to chase. No arrows or map markers to run toward. We had to figure it out for ourselves, and we had fun doing it. It was also all those moments of talking, helping, sharing thoughts and theories, etc that set the foundation for what would become the strong community FFXI was known for.
Newer MMOs have completely lost that, because nothing is mysterious. Everything is spelled out, pointed out and made obvious. If someone tried launching a MMO today that didn't point everything out, or otherwise show the player exactly where they need to go, people would throw an absolute shit-fit and probably quit the game right then and there. Ask them to figure out where something is on their own, and they rage quit, calling the game "unpolished", among other things, because it didn't hold their hand and expected them to - gods forbid - think.
This isn't me talking like "some old guy on his porch", or seeing through "nostalgia goggles". I've been around to see the transition from how it was, to how it is... and by many measures, it hasn't been for the better. When I first got into the genre, people loved the worlds they played in, and knew them like the back of their hands. They enjoyed working toward slving some new mystery, or reaching some new place. Nowadays, many people barely even notice the world exists, because ultimately, the World has taken the back seat. Hell, worse than that... it's in the trunk. It's been replaced by a series of Quest Markers, Arrows, Area Indicators, sparkling/glowing things, and the ever-important xp bar.
I know exactly what you're saying, because I've sensed the same thing myself.
There are people out there who actually argue against a MMO being created as a "world" first, and a "game" second, but it needn't be a bad thing - and if the MMO is well-designed, it isn't.
It's a matter of presentation.
To try and whittle it down to the simplest possible way of explaining it, let me put it this way...
Older MMOs had game content built around, and anchored in, a well established and crafted world. The world was as much "a character" as any NPC or mob you'd encounter, often with its own stories to tell, through its geography and what the player would encounter there. Everything felt integral, like it belonged there. You'd get the sense that this was a world that was there long before you arrived, and would be there long after you were gone. The world, and everything in it, exists despite your character. They could feel very much like a real world in that way.
Newer MMOs do it the other way around. They're designed as games, and the world built around them serves as little more than a pretty backdrop. They look great, and there's a lot of interesting things to look at, but it's all arbitrary, because of the way the game itself is designed. You could be playing in a world of cardboard boxes, and it would feel just the same - because the world itself is only there as set dressing. In a newer MMO, the world exists for the player. This is magnified by the presence of instances, where everyone's sequestered off into their own private "version" of many locations.
It's a very distinct difference and someone who didn't spend much (if any) time in an older MMO wold probably scoff, and think that sounds absurd, or may fail to see the real difference between the two. But the difference is huge.
Another big difference is how they're approached and played.
Older MMOs used to be about being lost and drawn into a virtual world, where you could go where you wanted, and do what you wanted, within the context of that world. There were paths you could follow, but they weren't nearly so linear, and you weren't guided from point to point to point to point... The fun of those worlds was simply being a part of them, and interacting with others you met. There didn't always have to be some primary, overarching goal to be striving for, such as "getting to level cap". The goal was to log in and have fun doing whatever you ended up doing, be it working on your own progress, helping someone else with theirs, or maybe just seeing what came up and going with the flow.
In older MMOs, the idea of "getting to level cap" was there, but it was a far off, distant goal. It was a vague concept; something people were aware of, but weren't necessarily racing toward. Some raced toward it, but it was more just to compete with other players, not due to some idea that "getting to level cap is what the game is all about". I never heard/read the phrase "the real game starts at level cap" when I played FFXI, AC1 or AC2, Anarchy Online, Shadowbane, DAoC, L2, etc. etc. I didn't start to hear that term 'til WoW came out and started attracting a different kind of player to the genre, whose understanding of MMOs was that they were supposed to be "won", just like the single-player games they'd been playing up 'til that point. Hell, there were people who didn't even know WoW was a MMORPG; to them it was just the next Warcraft game; this is part of what led to people thinking any other MMO they saw was a WoW clone - even when it had been around longer than WoW. They had no idea MMORPGs were a genre prior to that.
Many coming to the genre didn't "get" what MMOs were about, and it was evidenced in the various complaints that started cropping up. "It's too slow", "You can't get around fast enough", "They only don't have an ending because the devs want you to keep playing so they'll keep making money"... so many arguments born from complete ignorance of the genre they were getting into.
And that in itself isn't a problem. I didn't know what a MMORPG was the first time I played one, either. The difference is, rather than resisting and fighting against them, as many in the post-WoW era did, I adapted to them and lost myself in them. I loved feeling lost in a new world.
I can still remember my first hours playing FFXI, which was my 3rd or 4th MMO. I was utterly confused, lost and had no idea who to talk to or what to do. Through the shouts in the area, I could tell many others didn't know either. Yet, no one complained about it. We joked. We shared advice and theories (many of them wrong at that point ) and information. But we played, and we learned and we adapted to this strange new world we'd been dropped into. This was a strange new world, and we had to learn our way in it. No ! or ? to chase. No arrows or map markers to run toward. We had to figure it out for ourselves, and we had fun doing it. It was also all those moments of talking, helping, sharing thoughts and theories, etc that set the foundation for what would become the strong community FFXI was known for.
Newer MMOs have completely lost that, because nothing is mysterious. Everything is spelled out, pointed out and made obvious. If someone tried launching a MMO today that didn't point everything out, or otherwise show the player exactly where they need to go, people would throw an absolute shit-fit and probably quit the game right then and there. Ask them to figure out where something is on their own, and they rage quit, calling the game "unpolished", among other things, because it didn't hold their hand and expected them to - gods forbid - think.
This isn't me talking like "some old guy on his porch", or seeing through "nostalgia goggles". I've been around to see the transition from how it was, to how it is... and by many measures, it hasn't been for the better. When I first got into the genre, people loved the worlds they played in, and knew them like the back of their hands. They enjoyed working toward slving some new mystery, or reaching some new place. Nowadays, many people barely even notice the world exists, because ultimately, the World has taken the back seat. Hell, worse than that... it's in the trunk. It's been replaced by a series of Quest Markers, Arrows, Area Indicators, sparkling/glowing things, and the ever-important xp bar.
Right on man, well said.
Its nice to know I'm not the only one who has noticed these changes.
Comments
There are a bunch of clowns on Crowfall forums. I suggested a few of these things from this thread in a thread over there and a few guys were ultra combative about it like I insulted their religion. Its so sad to see pvp fans get stuck in this closed minded state where all they expect from a game is for someone to remake an old game. Especially when these old games they put on pedestals were often popular because they were new and an innovation at the time and had no direct competition.
Was it the dude who's first post was something along the lines of:
"PvP centric games always fail
PvP centric games always fail"
Yeah that dude got owned pretty fast and left. But you have to admit it's a silly way to introduce yourself on a PvP centric MMO forum...
TBH, I'm finding the atmosphere over there very jovial. Sure you have the usual "I'm tough cause I dig full loot" people, but what can you do?
Best post I've ever read on this site
Google is your friend...
I don't think any truly hardcore pvper would be excited for a game that went closer to wiz101 graphics than hyperrealism lol....That doesn't scream hardcore, grim, or brutal at all...
Well then you haven't seen Faxion.
Either way, most PvPers really don't give a rats ass about graphics. What matters is game play mechanics and performance. One of the main reasons behind this graphic style could be performance, with less poligons etc game can run much smoother in large scale PvP and on not-so-modern rigs.
Nefastus - Enclave
What's your pvp experience?
I couldn't give a rats ass about graphics in either type of MMO. At this point, permitted the game doesn't look completely clunky and awkward, I'd be thrilled if it could actually provide an immersive experience. I'm tried of playing cheesy MMOs that fail to produce "that feel" that the very first MMOs had. I can tell you it wasn't the graphics that gave players the feeling that they were actually in another world (though they help).
If you mean the show, I'll agree it wouldn't be as popular with the mainstream because people like sex and blood and what not, but I'd still watch it if it was something like Clone Wars.
Anime is a great example of having extremely graphic "cartoons" that go way beyond Hardcore PVP games or GOT.
Difference between a fan of dark fantasy or realism and being a fan of PVP. Again, they can easily go together, but aren't dependent on one another.
Some of my most memorable PVP experiences were in MUDs in the mid/late 90s. I couldn't see jack
Yeah unfortunately an open PvP MMO seems to attract a number of people who think that in order to enjoy such a game, you have to be "hardcore". And of course, being "hardcore" generally means being a complete and utter douchebag to others with absolutely zero provocation or reason.
Sadly, those are the kinds of people who make it their sole purpose to run as many others out of the game as they can... all the while wondering why the game's population is stagnating. That is until someone comes along that can drop their ass... then they go into a fit of crying and complaining before they rage-quit, themselves.
Incognito
www.incognito-gaming.us
"You're either with us or against us"
Its a sad practice, but I'd be willing to bet money that they are drumming up hype to launch an early access alpha/beta test later this year.
The folks associated with Crowfall are some heavy hitters. Perhaps they can come up with a system that will solve the issues that have plagued this type of game. Issues that no one else has come up with answers to. Even then, Koster has been happy to be the Sandbox Theoretician Professor for more than a decade, with no concrete game success in the period since leaving SWG. Who knows how it will go?
Personally, unless they develop some spectacular new systems, I think the game will devolve into the usual problems. There's a sad percentage of PvP players who foul the nest for everyone.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
The problem with PvP MMOs, and MMOs in general, is not as elusive as most people think. The answer to the problems are in my posts in this very thread. I know thats a bold statement, but hear me out.
I believe developers are taking the wrong approach to creating MMOs today. They are trying to build a game with some sort of gimmick, in this case PvP and conquest, instead of creating a world that actually looks, feels and operates like a world should, and adding PvP and conquest to said world. If the world isn't compelling on its own, PvP isn't going to make it so. Even a Hollywood movie can suspend your disbelief longer than your modern mmorpg. When I first started playing mmos, it was not that way.
I could go into a 10,000 word essay on the virtues of old MMOs versus new games, but it would probably be easier to just give you an example. Read the tenets and features from the Pantheon Game Summary. Regardless of how you feel about the type of mmo he is making (PvE focus) or what you think about McQuaid, its pretty obvious that his approach to creating a virtual world is totally different than the norm. In short, he is more concerned about making a believable experience from literally the ground, up. Stuff like raid content, pvp and the other common features in modern games should come second to the world itself, and its inhabitants. Its something other developers need to incorporate if they want their games to last.
For indie studios, drumming up excitement results in more funding, I assume. They already have over 2million from somewhere, if 100k sign up for Beta for a game that doesn't even have much revealed, backer might go "Hey, they might be on to something, have some more of my cash." As well as allowing fans a chance to either support through financial or feedback as well, which both can come in quite handy. I've never played a game that turned out better due to ignoring the fans suggestions before release.
As far as waiting around, people aren't waiting outside the door of the studio with a sleeping bag. If there is something else to do like play another game, read a book, go for a walk, nothing stopping fans from doing so and following a game. When it releases all that excitement comes back instantly.
Although in relation to Crowfall, I was waiting for Shadowbane to come out, took forever and decided to jump into DAoC and ended up not switching to SB once it launched. Partly because I really enjoyed DAoC, but also because SB didn't live up to my expectations. If it had, I would of been all over it, despite the long delay and the time I'd sunk into another game.
Players are fickle and whatever is shiny will get attention. Wait or no wait. Those that lose total interest due to time are probably the same ones that get hyped up then bored after a month because their expectations were unrealistic. Some common sense and living in reality is needed to enjoy gaming.
Does anyone have experience with EVE and it's community? While I know the basics of the game, it isn't my cup of tea because of the setting-UI-mechanics, but I really like the overall concepts and what not. As it seems to be one of the few older games that actually grew over the years and has dedicated players, I'm curious if this experience could be brought to a fantasy game such as Crowfall if the systems in place were similar.
PVP games over the last 10 years or so have attracted and bred a certain type of player that really don't add anything to the community or experience beyond negativity. A lot of which I believe is due to little to no accountability and most PVP being mindless murder.
Does EVE deal with this issue better? Are there lots of people flying around blowing up others for the lulz?
As seen with earlier games, if there are some restrictions or accountability in place along with some depth to the game beyond kill or be killed, it seems to deter folks from just running around stabbing each others like zombies with knives.
No game will probably reflect any real "virtual world" where everyone is playing nicely (be it they are stabbing you in the face or not at the moment) but I would like to see it at least get close.
I agree. A compelling game world is very important. I think earlier games have done that better than more modern ones. IMO the best were EQ1 and DAoC.
They were very diverse worlds, didn't have instances (at least their original versions), didn't have fast travel paths, each part of the world had it's own feel, had a lot of depth etc..
OP, short is answer is i hope not.
If Crowfall wants to promote itself as a pvp orientated game, it will die horribly before it even begins.
I really hope this game is an open world sandbox with plenty of things to do in it.
To narrow it down to a niche gamestyle like pvp would be a tragedy.
I know exactly what you're saying, because I've sensed the same thing myself.
There are people out there who actually argue against a MMO being created as a "world" first, and a "game" second, but it needn't be a bad thing - and if the MMO is well-designed, it isn't.
It's a matter of presentation.
To try and whittle it down to the simplest possible way of explaining it, let me put it this way...
Older MMOs had game content built around, and anchored in, a well established and crafted world. The world was as much "a character" as any NPC or mob you'd encounter, often with its own stories to tell, through its geography and what the player would encounter there. Everything felt integral, like it belonged there. You'd get the sense that this was a world that was there long before you arrived, and would be there long after you were gone. The world, and everything in it, exists despite your character. They could feel very much like a real world in that way.
Newer MMOs do it the other way around. They're designed as games, and the world built around them serves as little more than a pretty backdrop. They look great, and there's a lot of interesting things to look at, but it's all arbitrary, because of the way the game itself is designed. You could be playing in a world of cardboard boxes, and it would feel just the same - because the world itself is only there as set dressing. In a newer MMO, the world exists for the player. This is magnified by the presence of instances, where everyone's sequestered off into their own private "version" of many locations.
It's a very distinct difference and someone who didn't spend much (if any) time in an older MMO wold probably scoff, and think that sounds absurd, or may fail to see the real difference between the two. But the difference is huge.
Another big difference is how they're approached and played.
Older MMOs used to be about being lost and drawn into a virtual world, where you could go where you wanted, and do what you wanted, within the context of that world. There were paths you could follow, but they weren't nearly so linear, and you weren't guided from point to point to point to point... The fun of those worlds was simply being a part of them, and interacting with others you met. There didn't always have to be some primary, overarching goal to be striving for, such as "getting to level cap". The goal was to log in and have fun doing whatever you ended up doing, be it working on your own progress, helping someone else with theirs, or maybe just seeing what came up and going with the flow.
In older MMOs, the idea of "getting to level cap" was there, but it was a far off, distant goal. It was a vague concept; something people were aware of, but weren't necessarily racing toward. Some raced toward it, but it was more just to compete with other players, not due to some idea that "getting to level cap is what the game is all about". I never heard/read the phrase "the real game starts at level cap" when I played FFXI, AC1 or AC2, Anarchy Online, Shadowbane, DAoC, L2, etc. etc. I didn't start to hear that term 'til WoW came out and started attracting a different kind of player to the genre, whose understanding of MMOs was that they were supposed to be "won", just like the single-player games they'd been playing up 'til that point. Hell, there were people who didn't even know WoW was a MMORPG; to them it was just the next Warcraft game; this is part of what led to people thinking any other MMO they saw was a WoW clone - even when it had been around longer than WoW. They had no idea MMORPGs were a genre prior to that.
Many coming to the genre didn't "get" what MMOs were about, and it was evidenced in the various complaints that started cropping up. "It's too slow", "You can't get around fast enough", "They only don't have an ending because the devs want you to keep playing so they'll keep making money"... so many arguments born from complete ignorance of the genre they were getting into.
And that in itself isn't a problem. I didn't know what a MMORPG was the first time I played one, either. The difference is, rather than resisting and fighting against them, as many in the post-WoW era did, I adapted to them and lost myself in them. I loved feeling lost in a new world.
I can still remember my first hours playing FFXI, which was my 3rd or 4th MMO. I was utterly confused, lost and had no idea who to talk to or what to do. Through the shouts in the area, I could tell many others didn't know either. Yet, no one complained about it. We joked. We shared advice and theories (many of them wrong at that point
) and information. But we played, and we learned and we adapted to this strange new world we'd been dropped into. This was a strange new world, and we had to learn our way in it. No ! or ? to chase. No arrows or map markers to run toward. We had to figure it out for ourselves, and we had fun doing it. It was also all those moments of talking, helping, sharing thoughts and theories, etc that set the foundation for what would become the strong community FFXI was known for.
Newer MMOs have completely lost that, because nothing is mysterious. Everything is spelled out, pointed out and made obvious. If someone tried launching a MMO today that didn't point everything out, or otherwise show the player exactly where they need to go, people would throw an absolute shit-fit and probably quit the game right then and there. Ask them to figure out where something is on their own, and they rage quit, calling the game "unpolished", among other things, because it didn't hold their hand and expected them to - gods forbid - think.
This isn't me talking like "some old guy on his porch", or seeing through "nostalgia goggles". I've been around to see the transition from how it was, to how it is... and by many measures, it hasn't been for the better. When I first got into the genre, people loved the worlds they played in, and knew them like the back of their hands. They enjoyed working toward slving some new mystery, or reaching some new place. Nowadays, many people barely even notice the world exists, because ultimately, the World has taken the back seat. Hell, worse than that... it's in the trunk. It's been replaced by a series of Quest Markers, Arrows, Area Indicators, sparkling/glowing things, and the ever-important xp bar.
Right on man, well said.
Its nice to know I'm not the only one who has noticed these changes.
I just hope your wish list will not materialise in the form of Darkfall...
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard