I'll probably go full crafter, support archtype by the looks of things.
Be Shiroe from Log Horizon =D
Honestly, nothing in this game has made me raise an eyebrow in worry yet. I love that they're going back to Shadowbane and SWG. Heck, they even have the guy responsible for the Beastmaster and performer buff systems. It'll take a lot for them to screw this up.
MMO's played: Ragnarok Online (For years), WoW (for a few weeks only), Guild Wars, Lineage 2, Eve, Allods, Shattered Galaxy, 9 Dragons, City of Heroes, City of Villains, Star Trek Online (Got someone ELSE to pay for it), Champions Online (Someone else paid), Dofus, Dragonica, LOTRO, DDO and more... A LOT more. I've played good AND bad. The bad didn't last long. :P
Originally posted by Randayn I think it's going to be another failure in a long list of free for all PVP non-tab target action combat mmos...
Such as?
Such as, literally all of them.
I actually prefer a system that is closer to tab targetting due to the inability to grief other players. I think it is technically more sound as well. Free aim systems almost always look terrible when it comes to MMO's. Technology has definitely been catching up, but I don't quite think it's there yet, and certainly not for the companies that make these games. They just don't have the money to do it right.
What matters to me (if I can stand the game itself) is that I am not stuck with 5 or so skills to work with. If this developer starts selling action combat with limited skill selection for "strategic" gaming .... fuck that, done with it. They can shove their game for idiots down the drain with the other mmos that went that direction.
If you are so good at the game, you'd be able to win even if it were more of a 'deck' approach with a lower limit on abilities that you can use at once. Some people can't, nor do they want to have to use 30 abilities just to compete. Why do you think that a game like Rift actually launched with macro support in-game? You shouldn't have to use a macro system to enjoy a game. It's fine that you enjoy it, but I do believe that most people do not.
How many games honestly have only 5 abilities that you can use? Not many.
Originally posted by Randayn I think it's going to be another failure in a long list of free for all PVP non-tab target action combat mmos...
Except you need to apply a little critical thinking.
Did that long list of "free for all pvp non-tab target action combat mmo's" release with little bugs, come from dev houses with a lot of resources and experience or did they come from small indy houses with few resources and little experience?
you tend to evaluate things based upon your preferences as opposed to facts.
Nope. But does it matter? No, because the company making Crowfall doesn't have the resources either. Randayn is actually using fact. It's called History. I've seen you around here for quite a while, so I'm assuming you have been around MMO's for a long time. You should know that these types of games have failed miserably. Literally every single one of them since Ultima Online. None of them have gotten it right. So to assume it will be more of the same is quite a legitimate opinion.
I love sandbox games. More specifically, I love the idea. Unfortunately, even though I'm a huge fan of the play style, they never seem to work out. I can have a poor opinion of something I like and it is still relevant. For instance. I love the Cleveland Browns. I was born in Cleveland and I'll always be a Browns fan. However, that organization is a complete disaster, and has been since their return in 1999. I love them, but they suck ass.
I'd suggest opening your mind a little. There are many shades of grey between black and white.
Originally posted by Randayn Darkfall, Mortal Online, AA (non-action combat)...the GIANT list of kickstarter failures....and just about every game currently in development...
Originally posted by RandaynDarkfall, Mortal Online, AA (non-action combat)...the GIANT list of kickstarter failures....and just about every game currently in development...
But Darkfall, MO, and AA were not failed games. Just because you dislike them doesn't mean they failed.
AA definitely isn't a failed game, but because it isn't action combat, and isn't a truly open pvp game, it shouldn't even be on the list.Darkfall and MO can be considered financial failures I imagine, but that's not because there wasn't a demand for the games, I think the bigger problem was the low budget production quality. People wanted to play the games, the quality just wasn't there to justify them dumping their time into it.
But they can't be financial failures if they are still up and running. Do you think companies will continue to operate at a loss?
Short answer: yes, businesses don't instantly shut down the moment they stop making profit...
Long answer: You can be a financial failure while still making profit... if the profit isn't good return on investment.
It's like you invest a million dollars to make a penny of profit a month... it's still a failure...
I can definitely say Darkfall is not a failure, Darkfall was doing well enough to open up asian servers, which are doing very well (apparently korea vs japan is a big thing there).
AA... there is no denying they made boatloads of money.
I have no clue about how much profit MO is making, I have never played it and I don't pay attention to the community.
And the point im trying to make is that just because a game doesn't have millions of players (full loot is a niche audience after all), doesn't make it a failure.
AA is a completely different game and doesn't belong in this conversation.
Darkfall was, and is still not a success. It was a terrible, terrible game before they scrapped it and added more themepark style features. It's still pretty terrible and it looks 15 years old. Having 10,000 subs for the majority of it's lifetime is horrible. No one can argue that fact and still look like they are smarter than a 5 year old.
Mortal Online is an abomination. Their entire company is corrupt. The game itself, while using a very powerful version of the Unreal engine, is quite possibly the worst game designed while using that engine. It makes that engine look terrible. And then you look at older games like Gears of War and you are left wondering if the staff isn't comprised of 9 year olds.
Originally posted by Randayn I think it's going to be another failure in a long list of free for all PVP non-tab target action combat mmos...
So when you say "long list" you actually mean two? (both small indi titles) .
OP: I generally prefer non-tab combat, but it depends how it is implemented. If it is clunky or the control system is bad (like in Darkfall), I won't like it.
Are you implying that Darkfall and Mortal Online were the only two failures that attempted a game like this?
Originally posted by cyberpunkhobo And here I thought I would create nine other accounts and multibox my way to victory.
Seriously though, I like this news. I have a habit of turning games with traditional-style combat into a scripting exercise instead of enjoying them for what they are. I just hope the pacing of Crowfall's system is to my liking. The last thing I want to see is another game with the combat pace of a first-person shooter. There's enough of those already.
Originally posted by Nanfoodle With no tab targeting and action combat confirmed this has gone from excited to meh. Another in a long line of action, no tab targeting MMOs coming out with a big wonder on how they will stand out other then crafting. Dont get me wrong, good crafting is a must have but if the rest of the game does not stand out even crafting side will fail.
Why would non tab stand out any less than tab target? I don't understand the point you're making there, as both see widespread use.
The majority of MMOs made of late is no tab targeting and action combat. Same with whats in development. As someone who is getting sick of that kinda of game, it will take a lot to get me to want to play this one. Part me me hopes they have something really awesome to make me over look it, part of me hopes they dont so I dont want to play it. Longest any action combat game has held me is GW2 with about 6 months after live I quit. Most action no tab games is about 2-3 months before it gets old. That style of game seems to be no more then a way stop for me.
Use facts. For instance, state all the games that have been made. Define 'as of late'. Then point out how you came to the conclusion that most games have been NON tab-target. Please don't make people who don't know anything or can't be bothered with research believe in your lies.
Most games are still tab-target. They may not be tradition WoW-like combat systems, but they still employ a targetting system. Most games are a mixture. Very few are completely free-aim oriented. And pretty much all of them are terrible.
Just another fact that proves PVP and PVE do not work together.The ONLY reason you want aiming is for a pvp game,PVE games do not need that one bit.
The LAST thing i would want to see in a grouped PVE game is 5/6 players all circle strafing and spamming and chasing some mob all over the place,,god no.I have zero use for any kind of non controlled combat outside of pvp.Sure you need non controlled in pvp because you ant each player to have freedom to steadily move around but in a PVE setting,it becomes a sloppy mess of gaming.
Free aim has nothing to do with PvP or PvE. Both systems can be used and both require a significant amount of skill if that player wants to be better than most. I'm not sure where you were going with this comment.
Just another fact that proves PVP and PVE do not work together.The ONLY reason you want aiming is for a pvp game,PVE games do not need that one bit.
The LAST thing i would want to see in a grouped PVE game is 5/6 players all circle strafing and spamming and chasing some mob all over the place,,god no.I have zero use for any kind of non controlled combat outside of pvp.Sure you need non controlled in pvp because you ant each player to have freedom to steadily move around but in a PVE setting,it becomes a sloppy mess of gaming.
Seems to work fine in ESO, Wildstar, Tera, NVM, GW2, etc. While each system is different, same basic principle. Although I think EQN will probably pull it off better as the AI is supposed to react more like a player. We'll have to see how Crowfall's AI and combat handles the action design. Although PVE doesn't sound to be a major part of the daily experience for everyone.
Um, you can still target in those games. Invalid point.
Originally posted by Dullahan The problem with the non-tab target mmos of the past wasn't their combat systems or even the lack of polish, it was the lack of anything worthwhile to do or fight over besides castle seiging and random ganking. It doesn't make for a compelling or believable virtual world, and its likely the same fate Crowfall will suffer if they don't focus on making the game fun beyond the PvP. A world cannot exist for PvP alone. The counterstrike with elves archetype offers no long term playability.
Darkfall is doing just fine. As well as some other sandbox games. -_-
Not sure who you are kidding, but it sure ain't me.
Lets not pretend the hundreds of thousands of players like myself who followed Darkfall from its announcement back in the early 2000s were anything but disappointed with the final product or its sequel. They got stuck on pvp and sieging and never delivered on creating a meaningful world with various other activities that offered players a reason to log in. No progression, no content = no fun.
You and others can have your thoughts on the game.
However, that is irrelevant to the fact that it isn't dead and has a healthy population..
What exactly do you consider a healthy MMO population? Please google Darkfall unique subscription numbers and post it here for all of us to laugh at. While the answer is subjective, I do believe that we can come to a general conclusion that Darkfall does NOT have a healthy sub base for what we would consider even an averagely successful MMO.
I'm glad that you love DF. But don't try to pass it off as a good game. It's not just niche either. It's still an active game because of the father of the person running the company. And that, my friend, is a fact.
Originally posted by Randayn I think it's going to be another failure in a long list of free for all PVP non-tab target action combat mmos...
Such as?
Such as every single one that's been released. It's a recipe for a low-population game.
I don't think the combat is the main culprit for that, because i could say that about every tab-target game.
But on topic, i like it. I like more games are going for action combat, IMHO tab-target has reached it's limit. We can't go any where else with it. While with action combat we've still got a long way to go. We have yet t see an MMO us it at it's full potential. Tera smacked it, but there is still so much that can me done. There's more room for experementing
You can say that tab-target is a recipe for a low pop game?
Originally posted by Dullahan The problem with the non-tab target mmos of the past wasn't their combat systems or even the lack of polish, it was the lack of anything worthwhile to do or fight over besides castle seiging and random ganking. It doesn't make for a compelling or believable virtual world, and its likely the same fate Crowfall will suffer if they don't focus on making the game fun beyond the PvP. A world cannot exist for PvP alone. The counterstrike with elves archetype offers no long term playability.
Darkfall is doing just fine. As well as some other sandbox games. -_-
Not sure who you are kidding, but it sure ain't me.
Lets not pretend the hundreds of thousands of players like myself who followed Darkfall from its announcement back in the early 2000s were anything but disappointed with the final product or its sequel. They got stuck on pvp and sieging and never delivered on creating a meaningful world with various other activities that offered players a reason to log in. No progression, no content = no fun.
Pretty much what he said. I too followed Darkfall and everything they promised us, and failed to deliver everything else except FFA PvP, and even that was ruined by the horrible macro-fest grind the game had. DF is doing just fine is a white lie, they can perhaps keep the server costs up, but less than 10k subscribers isn't doing fine, its a dying game that is slowly withering away.
Less than 10k is more than being a dead game.
Its doing fine.
When you find it difficult to name MMO's with less subs than a game, it's pretty safe to say that the game is a failure.
Wow, even the most extreme DF fanboi's are coming out to play today.
And for my actual opinion on the topic of the post...
I like targetting. I do like some action oriented combat as well, but not FPS'ish. I enjoy playing support classes. I don't like how some modern games have started to get rid of the holy trinity. I like role-based teamplay. I like buffing, healing, CC'ing and all of those types of things. I'm not sure how effective those things will work in a free-aim type of system.
I guess I'll find out when we actually see some gameplay videos. Until then, my hype on this game is quite low.
Originally posted by Dullahan The problem with the non-tab target mmos of the past wasn't their combat systems or even the lack of polish, it was the lack of anything worthwhile to do or fight over besides castle seiging and random ganking. It doesn't make for a compelling or believable virtual world, and its likely the same fate Crowfall will suffer if they don't focus on making the game fun beyond the PvP. A world cannot exist for PvP alone. The counterstrike with elves archetype offers no long term playability.
Darkfall is doing just fine. As well as some other sandbox games. -_-
Not sure who you are kidding, but it sure ain't me.
Lets not pretend the hundreds of thousands of players like myself who followed Darkfall from its announcement back in the early 2000s were anything but disappointed with the final product or its sequel. They got stuck on pvp and sieging and never delivered on creating a meaningful world with various other activities that offered players a reason to log in. No progression, no content = no fun.
You and others can have your thoughts on the game.
However, that is irrelevant to the fact that it isn't dead and has a healthy population..
What exactly do you consider a healthy MMO population? Please google Darkfall unique subscription numbers and post it here for all of us to laugh at. While the answer is subjective, I do believe that we can come to a general conclusion that Darkfall does NOT have a healthy sub base for what we would consider even an averagely successful MMO.
I'm glad that you love DF. But don't try to pass it off as a good game. It's not just niche either. It's still an active game because of the father of the person running the company. And that, my friend, is a fact.
which has nothing to do with the combat style but other factors (like with all the other full loot non target games). All of those games up to this point released bugged, with minor features and in DF's case very bad gameplay choices whch made it very casual. they changed this over the last year but it probably wont recover.
Originally posted by Randayn I think it's going to be another failure in a long list of free for all PVP non-tab target action combat mmos...
The second I read some of the classes would be gender-locked I immediately thought of the absolute failure that is Warhammer AOR.
I really enjoyed WAR for a while. Some pretty interesting classes/mechanics (healers especially) and overall wasn't a total disaster. Sadly the end game PVE/PVP wasn't complete and left a lot to be desired, as do most themepark type games, despite them trying to make it about PVP and what not.
I'm not a Warhammer fan myself, but I thought the gender locked stuff was because of lore and never saw it as a problem. Believe it was only ~4 out of 24 classes, not counting the 4 Greenskins for obvious reasons, but even then was only 1/3 locked. As CF is looking to have ~24 classes, I wouldn't mind it being a similar breakdown of roles and gender lock.
I don't mind either systems, in fact, I wish non-tab targeting games had a tab system so you can lock on to what that target is doing yet have to put your x-hairs onto it for damage. Say like in a boss fight, I will have a boss on focus target so I can lock on to its casts and see who its target is. I still would like to have a Focus Target and Target of Target system in a twitch game for nothing else but the sole purpose of reading and anticipating an encounter.
Tab targeting is definitely the most boring style of combat, so whatever it is it's probably better than what it could have been.
Action combat is definitly the most boring style of combat for me. Also the most annoying in a pvp game. Oh how i love the jumping players that try to clip trough you all the time so you don't hit them. That is soooo skillfull and so much fun.
Note: This is only an issue because the one doing this kind of stuff is at an advantage. If both players do this this turns into pure luck because you never know where the other player really is ON THE SERVER. if you are against this kind of exploit and don't do it yourself you are basically screwed. The jumping player can be anywhere and you have no visual clue on your screen while he can hit you with every attack.
Forced exploiting? Sure sounds like fun. Not.
Originally posted by Randayn I think it's going to be another failure in a long list of free for all PVP non-tab target action combat mmos...
Also this.
Add up the very small fanbase. The low hype. The low budget. Then add full loot pvp (niche at best), being yet another action combat game (because we did not see enough fail already).... how in the world can all this factors add up to a success? Well i don't know. Some games can surprize. But i highly doubt it here.
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
Comments
I'll probably go full crafter, support archtype by the looks of things.
Be Shiroe from Log Horizon =D
Honestly, nothing in this game has made me raise an eyebrow in worry yet. I love that they're going back to Shadowbane and SWG. Heck, they even have the guy responsible for the Beastmaster and performer buff systems. It'll take a lot for them to screw this up.
MMO's played: Ragnarok Online (For years), WoW (for a few weeks only), Guild Wars, Lineage 2, Eve, Allods, Shattered Galaxy, 9 Dragons, City of Heroes, City of Villains, Star Trek Online (Got someone ELSE to pay for it), Champions Online (Someone else paid), Dofus, Dragonica, LOTRO, DDO and more... A LOT more. I've played good AND bad. The bad didn't last long. :P
Such as, literally all of them.
I actually prefer a system that is closer to tab targetting due to the inability to grief other players. I think it is technically more sound as well. Free aim systems almost always look terrible when it comes to MMO's. Technology has definitely been catching up, but I don't quite think it's there yet, and certainly not for the companies that make these games. They just don't have the money to do it right.
If you are so good at the game, you'd be able to win even if it were more of a 'deck' approach with a lower limit on abilities that you can use at once. Some people can't, nor do they want to have to use 30 abilities just to compete. Why do you think that a game like Rift actually launched with macro support in-game? You shouldn't have to use a macro system to enjoy a game. It's fine that you enjoy it, but I do believe that most people do not.
How many games honestly have only 5 abilities that you can use? Not many.
Nope. But does it matter? No, because the company making Crowfall doesn't have the resources either. Randayn is actually using fact. It's called History. I've seen you around here for quite a while, so I'm assuming you have been around MMO's for a long time. You should know that these types of games have failed miserably. Literally every single one of them since Ultima Online. None of them have gotten it right. So to assume it will be more of the same is quite a legitimate opinion.
I love sandbox games. More specifically, I love the idea. Unfortunately, even though I'm a huge fan of the play style, they never seem to work out. I can have a poor opinion of something I like and it is still relevant. For instance. I love the Cleveland Browns. I was born in Cleveland and I'll always be a Browns fan. However, that organization is a complete disaster, and has been since their return in 1999. I love them, but they suck ass.
I'd suggest opening your mind a little. There are many shades of grey between black and white.
According to the world.
AA is a completely different game and doesn't belong in this conversation.
Darkfall was, and is still not a success. It was a terrible, terrible game before they scrapped it and added more themepark style features. It's still pretty terrible and it looks 15 years old. Having 10,000 subs for the majority of it's lifetime is horrible. No one can argue that fact and still look like they are smarter than a 5 year old.
Mortal Online is an abomination. Their entire company is corrupt. The game itself, while using a very powerful version of the Unreal engine, is quite possibly the worst game designed while using that engine. It makes that engine look terrible. And then you look at older games like Gears of War and you are left wondering if the staff isn't comprised of 9 year olds.
I've played these games btw.
Are you implying that Darkfall and Mortal Online were the only two failures that attempted a game like this?
That's cute. New to the MMO scene I'm guessing?
You can still script in an action game btw.
Use facts. For instance, state all the games that have been made. Define 'as of late'. Then point out how you came to the conclusion that most games have been NON tab-target. Please don't make people who don't know anything or can't be bothered with research believe in your lies.
Most games are still tab-target. They may not be tradition WoW-like combat systems, but they still employ a targetting system. Most games are a mixture. Very few are completely free-aim oriented. And pretty much all of them are terrible.
Free aim has nothing to do with PvP or PvE. Both systems can be used and both require a significant amount of skill if that player wants to be better than most. I'm not sure where you were going with this comment.
Um, you can still target in those games. Invalid point.
What exactly do you consider a healthy MMO population? Please google Darkfall unique subscription numbers and post it here for all of us to laugh at. While the answer is subjective, I do believe that we can come to a general conclusion that Darkfall does NOT have a healthy sub base for what we would consider even an averagely successful MMO.
I'm glad that you love DF. But don't try to pass it off as a good game. It's not just niche either. It's still an active game because of the father of the person running the company. And that, my friend, is a fact.
You can say that tab-target is a recipe for a low pop game?
Maybe if we are living in Bizarro World...
When you find it difficult to name MMO's with less subs than a game, it's pretty safe to say that the game is a failure.
Wow, even the most extreme DF fanboi's are coming out to play today.
And for my actual opinion on the topic of the post...
I like targetting. I do like some action oriented combat as well, but not FPS'ish. I enjoy playing support classes. I don't like how some modern games have started to get rid of the holy trinity. I like role-based teamplay. I like buffing, healing, CC'ing and all of those types of things. I'm not sure how effective those things will work in a free-aim type of system.
I guess I'll find out when we actually see some gameplay videos. Until then, my hype on this game is quite low.
The second I read some of the classes would be gender-locked I immediately thought of the absolute failure that is Warhammer AOR.
Thank god, there needs to be more non targeting games.
which has nothing to do with the combat style but other factors (like with all the other full loot non target games). All of those games up to this point released bugged, with minor features and in DF's case very bad gameplay choices whch made it very casual. they changed this over the last year but it probably wont recover.
Diablo was released in 1996 and it had no tab-targetting, in 2015 I should feel excited for this?? I see it as normal.
I really enjoyed WAR for a while. Some pretty interesting classes/mechanics (healers especially) and overall wasn't a total disaster. Sadly the end game PVE/PVP wasn't complete and left a lot to be desired, as do most themepark type games, despite them trying to make it about PVP and what not.
I'm not a Warhammer fan myself, but I thought the gender locked stuff was because of lore and never saw it as a problem. Believe it was only ~4 out of 24 classes, not counting the 4 Greenskins for obvious reasons, but even then was only 1/3 locked. As CF is looking to have ~24 classes, I wouldn't mind it being a similar breakdown of roles and gender lock.
Action combat is definitly the most boring style of combat for me. Also the most annoying in a pvp game. Oh how i love the jumping players that try to clip trough you all the time so you don't hit them. That is soooo skillfull and so much fun.
Note: This is only an issue because the one doing this kind of stuff is at an advantage. If both players do this this turns into pure luck because you never know where the other player really is ON THE SERVER. if you are against this kind of exploit and don't do it yourself you are basically screwed. The jumping player can be anywhere and you have no visual clue on your screen while he can hit you with every attack.
Forced exploiting? Sure sounds like fun. Not.
Also this.
Add up the very small fanbase. The low hype. The low budget. Then add full loot pvp (niche at best), being yet another action combat game (because we did not see enough fail already).... how in the world can all this factors add up to a success? Well i don't know. Some games can surprize. But i highly doubt it here.
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?