IMO the golden age for MMORPGs is when a good company comes along in the future who understands customer driven value better and we see a bit of a change on the scene as far as how these things are made and run.
So i am one who thinks the golden age of MMORPGs is some time in the future.
If you relate MMOs to cars we're just a derivative step or two beyond Model Ts.. Maybe we're in the 40s or 50s well into the era of mass production. But we're not modern.
Interesting view. While this may seem nitpicky, in regards to MMOs I think you may be right. In regards to MMORPGs, I'm just not seeing it.
Is it because you have emotional attachment toward [insert game here]?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
I think the golden age was around when Vanguard came out.
Here is why : its not that we had best games ( most of them were failures ) but we had most interest in MMO , both playerwise and studio development. We had most new MMOs being developed , because first of the big flops didnt start to happen yet.
IMO the golden age for MMORPGs is when a good company comes along in the future who understands customer driven value better and we see a bit of a change on the scene as far as how these things are made and run.
So i am one who thinks the golden age of MMORPGs is some time in the future.
If you relate MMOs to cars we're just a derivative step or two beyond Model Ts.. Maybe we're in the 40s or 50s well into the era of mass production. But we're not modern.
Interesting view. While this may seem nitpicky, in regards to MMOs I think you may be right. In regards to MMORPGs, I'm just not seeing it.
Is it because you have emotional attachment toward [insert game here]?
Not really. It's because I don't consider many MMOFPS, MMORTS, PBBGs, MOBAs, ARPGs and Online TCGs to be MMORPGs.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
IMO the golden age for MMORPGs is when a good company comes along in the future who understands customer driven value better and we see a bit of a change on the scene as far as how these things are made and run.
So i am one who thinks the golden age of MMORPGs is some time in the future.
Interesting view. While this may seem nitpicky, in regards to MMOs I think you may be right. In regards to MMORPGs, I'm just not seeing it.
Is it because you have emotional attachment toward [insert game here]?
Not really. It's because I don't consider many MMOFPS, MMORTS, PBBGs, MOBAs, ARPGs and Online TCGs to be MMORPGs.
, those are just MMOs and not RPGs. And even moreso I think he's mistaken with the MMO part as well (just like Francis with his "the gaming industry crash is upon us" video). Don't get me wrong, I don't particularily like the current state, for example the list of Loktofeit, I only touch (occasionally) mmofps and TCG, the rest are cr*p to me. Still, I think OP's wrong.
The problem is with OP's statement, is that the industry is now in a state of "almost" perfect monitor and control. Audit systems, direct feedback, etc. I mean from the revenue side, of course, but sadly that's what matters in the end. So, when you say you wait for a company "who understands customer driven value better" - sad news, but that's the present. They understand it perfectly - and that's why we get the games we have.
A few years ago, when the "we hate f2p" movement started to get big, I said (among other stuff, like that f2p will be the norm), "when you grow tired of bashing f2p, that will be a perfect time to start bashing mobiles. "
And I guess years of '15/'16 will be the turning point of that, with the new chipsets and the 14nm manufacturing. So, because of they "understands customer driven value better", we are facing some pretty interesting years... which many of us won't like that much - nicely put and that won't matter, since "veterans" are the new minority.
Seeing folks like a friend who never played a minute in his life, and now at 40 he can't put his tablet down (plays a similar fantasy builder like that Kate Upton game), or a neighbor (lady in her 50s) who went berserk when her phone fried, and not because of the lost contacts or data, she mourned her saves on the 2 games she played... A few million former mmo players are close to nothing to the billions of people with mobile/tablet in their pockets 24/7, directly tied to their wallets.
So yep, trust me, companies "understands customer driven value better" just well enough. Sadly.
None of games from that years would be good enough today. They were good back in the day because MMORPG concept was in it's infancy and games were developing brining new things to the table.
In example - from an "open virtual world fantasy semi-simulatior" game like Ultima Online I would require MAGNITUTES more than I've required from Ultima Online back in the 90s.
UO had HUGE fundamental problems and shortcomings. Problems&shortcomings I would not tolerate today. Yes, I would not play UO remake with modern AAA graphics.
I would disagree.
It's not the quality of the games back in those days... it's the quality of today's audience.
None of games from that years would be good enough today. They were good back in the day because MMORPG concept was in it's infancy and games were developing brining new things to the table.
In example - from an "open virtual world fantasy semi-simulatior" game like Ultima Online I would require MAGNITUTES more than I've required from Ultima Online back in the 90s.
UO had HUGE fundamental problems and shortcomings. Problems&shortcomings I would not tolerate today. Yes, I would not play UO remake with modern AAA graphics.
I would disagree.
It's not the quality of the games back in those days... it's the quality of today's audience.
I kind of agree with you. Today's audience is also us so we are all part of the problem to an extent. It was great when MMOs were knew and people were coming up with new ideas in games. Developers seemed to be more concerned about what they could do to make the game fun and how they could empower the players to have fun. Now developers are just concerned about what game mechanics will draw the largest audience and make the most money. Also the players who were venturing into the first MMOs generally knew very little about them and about MMORPG or even single player game mechanics. Now more people are concerned with game mechanics and their cost then they are about making the game fun. You suggest something and it's that is not financially feasible or it will not make enough money. That was not the case in the old days. It was also great because there were so few MMOs. Everyone jumped in and were really using their imaginations to make the game more fun. Many of those ideas were later implemented into future MMOs. A lot of features were actually stripped out of MMOs because they are now looked at as time syncs or a waste of time. What I say is if you are playing an MMO you are wasting time anyway. Might as well have more features to make the games more social and get people more involved in the game. At any rate the point is that with the knowledge of MMO game mechanics and the ideas behind them the illusion is lifted. If people are only interested in the bottom line and not a fun, deep, game, then we will never have another golden age. Developers would also have to start caring about more then just the bottom line. Likely we would also need a lot of these MMOs to close down so that there are only a few left or the ones that exist are only for niche groups. Everyone else can go to single player games or MOBAs.
The problem is with OP's statement, is that the industry is now in a state of "almost" perfect monitor and control. Audit systems, direct feedback, etc. I mean from the revenue side, of course, but sadly that's what matters in the end. So, when you say you wait for a company "who understands customer driven value better" - sad news, but that's the present. They understand it perfectly - and that's why we get the games we have.
A few years ago, when the "we hate f2p" movement started to get big, I said (among other stuff, like that f2p will be the norm), "when you grow tired of bashing f2p, that will be a perfect time to start bashing mobiles. "
And I guess years of '15/'16 will be the turning point of that, with the new chipsets and the 14nm manufacturing. So, because of they "understands customer driven value better", we are facing some pretty interesting years... which many of us won't like that much - nicely put and that won't matter, since "veterans" are the new minority.
Seeing folks like a friend who never played a minute in his life, and now at 40 he can't put his tablet down (plays a similar fantasy builder like that Kate Upton game), or a neighbor (lady in her 50s) who went berserk when her phone fried, and not because of the lost contacts or data, she mourned her saves on the 2 games she played... A few million former mmo players are close to nothing to the billions of people with mobile/tablet in their pockets 24/7, directly tied to their wallets.
So yep, trust me, companies "understands customer driven value better" just well enough. Sadly.
I think its just a little more complex than you're getting into here.
It wouldn't matter but you're trying to correct me about a vague term I threw out. Its better to not get into great detail about someone else's vague terms because invariably we go in a direction they never intended.
Regardless, companies can misinterpret great data. While there is a lot of data on the market each individual company has to deal with that data and the people doing it aren't perfect. They are in general about as skilled at it as the people who program the games are at programming them and as consumers we all know how 100% on point those guys are at that.
Then the issues of profit and their ability to understand what we want and extract it from us. Its a fair point that they are doing it well in some manner, but its not a proven or fair point that they are exchanging the maximum amount of value with their consumers possible. Our satisfaction level and their profit levels could be better both short term and long term. The main point of contention here being long term.
They've all seem to have grown into this staggered model to extend their profits with the up front box sales followed by the free to play relaunch. That draws out their revenue stream for quite a long time compared to how they were doing it a decade ago. It may be a safe way for them to operate but it isn't the only way. More profitable methods may prove eventually to be just as reliable.
Maybe a long term sustainable premium model on an actual quality market focused title (kinda like EVE!) or something completely different will someday surprise people with how it can perform.
And ya, on the whole the size of the at home personal PC MMORPG player market may be shrinking relative to the tablet/phone minigame market.. (it may be but I can't say for sure). But that has nothing to do with whether or not there is a future in profitability for either. As long as MMORPG players exist in some substantial form we are relevant.
So you got some fair points, but you also have to remember the people working at these companies are just people and those people are no smarter than the general folks you see around you day in and day out. They make mistakes and they are NEVER doing ANY job at an optimal level.
Can't really agree we passed any Age yet, be it Golden or Dark age or whatever you wanna call it.
Sure you can disect any unit of time and name it but I'd rather look at it from a bit further away and say we barrely passed our birth. UO, EQ, AC, WoW, whatever you feel it's Golden age, it's actually joys of birth.
Provided our world will continue to exist in similar fashion as today, the Golden age is yet to come. So is the Dark age. And with the appearance of the f2p Casinos online and pay2win models, and ofc consumers themselves with their locust swarming one game after another as well as en masse throwing money at unfinished products, we are 1 foot in Dark age if anything.
And ya, on the whole the size of the at home personal PC MMORPG player market may be shrinking relative to the tablet/phone minigame market.. (it may be but I can't say for sure). But that has nothing to do with whether or not there is a future in profitability for either. As long as MMORPG players exist in some substantial form we are relevant.
Relevance is relative.
If you are big enough to be notice by indies (like DF) does not mean that AAA devs would care.
If you look at the real successful companies like Blizz, you can tell where they think the trend is going ... and it is not the traditional wow-like MMOs anymore.
And ya, on the whole the size of the at home personal PC MMORPG player market may be shrinking relative to the tablet/phone minigame market.. (it may be but I can't say for sure). But that has nothing to do with whether or not there is a future in profitability for either. As long as MMORPG players exist in some substantial form we are relevant.
Relevance is relative.
If you are big enough to be notice by indies (like DF) does not mean that AAA devs would care.
If you look at the real successful companies like Blizz, you can tell where they think the trend is going ... and it is not the traditional wow-like MMOs anymore.
Noone is arguing there isn't more money in other markets.
But once we start talking about other markets we aren't talking about the same hobby.
Or are you guys saying maybe our type of MMORPG is going to be extinct soon? That is probably a completely different conversation. I'm interested. I don't think it is going to happen. Not ever really. But it would be interesting to hear about something i've never really put much thought in.
Noone is arguing there isn't more money in other markets.
But once we start talking about other markets we aren't talking about the same hobby.
Or are you guys saying maybe our type of MMORPG is going to be extinct soon? That is probably a completely different conversation. I'm interested. I don't think it is going to happen. Not ever really. But it would be interesting to hear about something i've never really put much thought in.
MMO is not a monolithic hobby. Some like pvp. Some play MOBAs. Some only play solo. Some play pve.
And nothing really goes extinct extinct. Even text adventures has a very niche, very small community. Point & click adventures (which i also like and play) makes a come-back though probably a lot smaller than AAA shooters.
But the point is ... the more traditional MMO (wow-like) seems to be declining ... and not even blizz will make another.
The golden age will come when mmos have achieved the quality of single player games. Its almost there. Star Citizen for example will be one of the first of that age in my opinion. And maybe even black desert.
Comments
Is it because you have emotional attachment toward [insert game here]?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I think the golden age was around when Vanguard came out.
Here is why : its not that we had best games ( most of them were failures ) but we had most interest in MMO , both playerwise and studio development. We had most new MMOs being developed , because first of the big flops didnt start to happen yet.
This age. I would call :
Dark Age of MMO
Not really. It's because I don't consider many MMOFPS, MMORTS, PBBGs, MOBAs, ARPGs and Online TCGs to be MMORPGs.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The problem is with OP's statement, is that the industry is now in a state of "almost" perfect monitor and control. Audit systems, direct feedback, etc. I mean from the revenue side, of course, but sadly that's what matters in the end. So, when you say you wait for a company "who understands customer driven value better" - sad news, but that's the present. They understand it perfectly - and that's why we get the games we have.
A few years ago, when the "we hate f2p" movement started to get big, I said (among other stuff, like that f2p will be the norm), "when you grow tired of bashing f2p, that will be a perfect time to start bashing mobiles.
"
And I guess years of '15/'16 will be the turning point of that, with the new chipsets and the 14nm manufacturing. So, because of they "understands customer driven value better", we are facing some pretty interesting years... which many of us won't like that much - nicely put
and that won't matter, since "veterans" are the new minority.
Seeing folks like a friend who never played a minute in his life, and now at 40 he can't put his tablet down (plays a similar fantasy builder like that Kate Upton game), or a neighbor (lady in her 50s) who went berserk when her phone fried, and not because of the lost contacts or data, she mourned her saves on the 2 games she played... A few million former mmo players are close to nothing to the billions of people with mobile/tablet in their pockets 24/7, directly tied to their wallets.
So yep, trust me, companies "understands customer driven value better" just well enough. Sadly.
I would disagree.
It's not the quality of the games back in those days... it's the quality of today's audience.
I kind of agree with you. Today's audience is also us so we are all part of the problem to an extent. It was great when MMOs were knew and people were coming up with new ideas in games. Developers seemed to be more concerned about what they could do to make the game fun and how they could empower the players to have fun. Now developers are just concerned about what game mechanics will draw the largest audience and make the most money. Also the players who were venturing into the first MMOs generally knew very little about them and about MMORPG or even single player game mechanics. Now more people are concerned with game mechanics and their cost then they are about making the game fun. You suggest something and it's that is not financially feasible or it will not make enough money. That was not the case in the old days. It was also great because there were so few MMOs. Everyone jumped in and were really using their imaginations to make the game more fun. Many of those ideas were later implemented into future MMOs. A lot of features were actually stripped out of MMOs because they are now looked at as time syncs or a waste of time. What I say is if you are playing an MMO you are wasting time anyway. Might as well have more features to make the games more social and get people more involved in the game. At any rate the point is that with the knowledge of MMO game mechanics and the ideas behind them the illusion is lifted. If people are only interested in the bottom line and not a fun, deep, game, then we will never have another golden age. Developers would also have to start caring about more then just the bottom line. Likely we would also need a lot of these MMOs to close down so that there are only a few left or the ones that exist are only for niche groups. Everyone else can go to single player games or MOBAs.
I think its just a little more complex than you're getting into here.
It wouldn't matter but you're trying to correct me about a vague term I threw out. Its better to not get into great detail about someone else's vague terms because invariably we go in a direction they never intended.
Regardless, companies can misinterpret great data. While there is a lot of data on the market each individual company has to deal with that data and the people doing it aren't perfect. They are in general about as skilled at it as the people who program the games are at programming them and as consumers we all know how 100% on point those guys are at that.
Then the issues of profit and their ability to understand what we want and extract it from us. Its a fair point that they are doing it well in some manner, but its not a proven or fair point that they are exchanging the maximum amount of value with their consumers possible. Our satisfaction level and their profit levels could be better both short term and long term. The main point of contention here being long term.
They've all seem to have grown into this staggered model to extend their profits with the up front box sales followed by the free to play relaunch. That draws out their revenue stream for quite a long time compared to how they were doing it a decade ago. It may be a safe way for them to operate but it isn't the only way. More profitable methods may prove eventually to be just as reliable.
Maybe a long term sustainable premium model on an actual quality market focused title (kinda like EVE!) or something completely different will someday surprise people with how it can perform.
And ya, on the whole the size of the at home personal PC MMORPG player market may be shrinking relative to the tablet/phone minigame market.. (it may be but I can't say for sure). But that has nothing to do with whether or not there is a future in profitability for either. As long as MMORPG players exist in some substantial form we are relevant.
So you got some fair points, but you also have to remember the people working at these companies are just people and those people are no smarter than the general folks you see around you day in and day out. They make mistakes and they are NEVER doing ANY job at an optimal level.
Can't really agree we passed any Age yet, be it Golden or Dark age or whatever you wanna call it.
Sure you can disect any unit of time and name it but I'd rather look at it from a bit further away and say we barrely passed our birth. UO, EQ, AC, WoW, whatever you feel it's Golden age, it's actually joys of birth.
Provided our world will continue to exist in similar fashion as today, the Golden age is yet to come. So is the Dark age. And with the appearance of the f2p Casinos online and pay2win models, and ofc consumers themselves with their locust swarming one game after another as well as en masse throwing money at unfinished products, we are 1 foot in Dark age if anything.
Relevance is relative.
If you are big enough to be notice by indies (like DF) does not mean that AAA devs would care.
If you look at the real successful companies like Blizz, you can tell where they think the trend is going ... and it is not the traditional wow-like MMOs anymore.
Noone is arguing there isn't more money in other markets.
But once we start talking about other markets we aren't talking about the same hobby.
Or are you guys saying maybe our type of MMORPG is going to be extinct soon? That is probably a completely different conversation. I'm interested. I don't think it is going to happen. Not ever really. But it would be interesting to hear about something i've never really put much thought in.
MMO is not a monolithic hobby. Some like pvp. Some play MOBAs. Some only play solo. Some play pve.
And nothing really goes extinct extinct. Even text adventures has a very niche, very small community. Point & click adventures (which i also like and play) makes a come-back though probably a lot smaller than AAA shooters.
But the point is ... the more traditional MMO (wow-like) seems to be declining ... and not even blizz will make another.