I don't have a problem with cosmetic outfits in a cash shop, even if they can't be earned in normal game play. My preference would be a wide variety of (IP appropriate) outfits available exclusively through a cash shop, and an equal number of outfits available exclusively through game play. I'd prefer both types of outfits to be plentiful, and exclusive.
One thing that really annoys me is a cash shop filled with hundreds of nice-looking outfits, but there are only a handful of appearance choices available in the game. If, through quests and in-game accomplishments, I become a guard of a particular city, I shouldn't have to purchase the nifty uniform in the cash shop.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
And that brings up another question. Why are games failing to retain players after only a few months? And can that be corrected or is it that we have changed?
Because "retain players after a few month" is not the objective? There are other ways to make money. Single player games don't need to "retain players after a few months", and MMOs are learning how to do that.
If it is not desired, there is no need to "correct" anything.
Are you seriously suggesting that MMOs shouldn't desire to retain players?
Yes .. if the cost of doing that is too high.
If single player games can make profits purely on box sales (and hence whether the players play one month or one years matter nil), MMOs can learn from that.
It is basically a cost-benefit analysis. If retaining players make LESS money than acquiring new ones (which old content can be used to do that), than may be getting new ones is a better strategy.
Depends on the business model, but player retention is important for all genres. The prime example of this is Call of Duty, where Activision sell a boxed game, then four DLC over the space of a year, followed by the next boxed game. This cycle continues, there are no particular mechanics designed to keep players retained, other than the prestige system, but the franchise is built around retaining players from one year to the next.
On a shorter term scale, this is what daily quest, login reward, etc are for, they aren't designed to keep you for years, but perhaps six months. Everyone does this, either to get an extra month of pay out of the player or turn a new product into a billion dollar franchise. It is just more obvious in MMOs where the gameplay can be sufficiently stale that they need gimmicks to do the retention work for them.
and they don't do it in the same game. The newest CoD with Kevin Spacey is not the same as Black Ops 2.
May be MMOs should learn from that. Forget about one game that goes from years. Do a different game every year.
At this point in time however, more to this snowball has also occurred. The playerbase having so many "Free" MMORPGs to choose from, a majority of them will not even look at Subscription games.
In lieu of the direction of MMORPG business models, F2P and it's Cash Shop do seem to be here to stay, or at least for the long run. Even as so many disagree with me (from both ends of the spectrum mind you), F2P with Cash Shop and "Pay to Win Reduction Methods," are the inevitable future of the MMORPG. Just watch.
Yeh .. i don't consider any sub-only games anymore. And even if there is one that sounds interesting, it will go b2p or f2p soon.
But I don't particularly care about "p2w reduction methods". If i play solo, there is no p2w. It does not affect me at all. Now pay wall is another matter .. but that is not the subject of this topic.
Originally posted by AlBQuirky I find it interesting that a "lifetime earnings" gets compared to a "yearly earning."
Why is it interesting? Please tell me you're capable of doing the simple math involved. It's literally one subtraction and one division operation.Heck my version of the post even did all the math for you.
You correct. It is not hard. But the implications I read (possibly in error) were arcade games making more then MMOs, which could be true. But the comparison seemed to be a little off to me.
A repost of your own post, though I did not address it specifically:
Originally posted by Axehilt There have been a few... (EDIT: oh, someone beat me to this. That'll teach me to reply to posts in order.) SWTOR in 2013 made an estimated $139 mil (source: Superdata) (Source) shows several classic arcade games making $280 mil or more over their lifetime. #10 Donkey Kong starts the list with $280 mil in its first year or two. $6 Defender made $1,000 mil over 12 years, but the $83 mil per year average would've been very front-loaded with most of the money being made in the first ~3 years or so. So it's very likely it had a better year than SWTOR too. So many/most of the games on that list outperformed SWTOR, even before adjusting for inflation.
Yet the first 2 bullet points say "138 mill for SWTOR in 2013 (1 year) and $280 mill or more for several classic arcade games over their lifetime, before inflation adjustments. Looks impressive.
I know this and Torval's posts were a response to another, but I wonder why 2013 was chosen to represent SWTOR? Was that the best year for them? Is it the latest data year for them? It just seems strange to me that one year from one MMO was used vs a whole industry's lifetime earnings. what percentage of arcade games made more? Is this a form ganking?
I'm not trying to say one way or another which is "more lucrative", but using lifetime earnings vs 1 year earnings in your first 2 bullet points sets the tone. I am duly chastised.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Axehilt Originally posted by FoomerangNot really but nice try. Still kinda laughing you even brought that up heh
We know the years involved. We know the total revenue. [*] data year - release year = numberOfYears total Revenue / numberOfYears = average Rev per year One subtraction. One division. This is not rocket surgery.
Ok well you left out some math so here goes.
You said 83 million a year for Defender, right? It sold 60,000 units. So divide 83 mil by 60k and you get a what each of the 60,000 businesses made on the Defender cabinet they owned. So Joe's Pizza made about 1400 bucks on their defender machine in 1984 and so on down the line. And guess how much of that 1400 they had to give to Williams Entertainment? Zero.
Now take the 139 million dollars SWTOR made last year and divide that by 1 and give it to EA.
My original reply to this nonsensical debate was some poster claimed that classic video games were more greedy than the cash shops we have today. When in fact they revenue generated from classic video games was distributed among tens of thousands of small businesses around the world and the developers never saw a dime beyond the initial cabinet sale.
Originally posted by Axehilt There have been a few... (EDIT: oh, someone beat me to this. That'll teach me to reply to posts in order.)
SWTOR in 2013 made an estimated $139 mil (source: Superdata)
(Source) shows several classic arcade games making $280 mil or more over their lifetime.
#10 Donkey Kong starts the list with $280 mil in its first year or two.
$6 Defender made $1,000 mil over 12 years, but the $83 mil per year average would've been very front-loaded with most of the money being made in the first ~3 years or so. So it's very likely it had a better year than SWTOR too.
So many/most of the games on that list outperformed SWTOR, even before adjusting for inflation.
Yet the first 2 bullet points say "138 mill for SWTOR in 2013 (1 year) and $280 mill or more for several classic arcade games over their lifetime, before inflation adjustments. Looks impressive.
You're doing this on purpose, right? I mean...literally the very next bullet spells out specifics of the $280 mil game.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Stop giving them ideas, or we will go from P2W/casino MMOs to Pay as you Play. Every minute in game will cost 50p or something. Most gaming companies have abandoned gaming ethos, only cash ethos directs them now. So if you think Pay as you Play would be unthinkable, well that's what we used to think about cash shops.
Originally posted by Scot Stop giving them ideas, or we will go from P2W/casino MMOs to Pay as you Play. Every minute in game will cost 50p or something. Most gaming companies have abandoned gaming ethos, only cash ethos directs them now. So if you think Pay as you Play would be unthinkable, well that's what we used to think about cash shops.
They already know the idea.
Pay as you play is older than sub. (In particular, for example, Kingdom of Drakkar charged $2 per hour).
This will never happen because of the competition. If i can play a large part of games for free, why would i ever pay for play?
Originally posted by Axehilt There have been a few... (EDIT: oh, someone beat me to this. That'll teach me to reply to posts in order.) SWTOR in 2013 made an estimated $139 mil (source: Superdata) (Source) shows several classic arcade games making $280 mil or more over their lifetime. #10 Donkey Kong starts the list with $280 mil in its first year or two. $6 Defender made $1,000 mil over 12 years, but the $83 mil per year average would've been very front-loaded with most of the money being made in the first ~3 years or so. So it's very likely it had a better year than SWTOR too. So many/most of the games on that list outperformed SWTOR, even before adjusting for inflation.
Yet the first 2 bullet points say "138 mill for SWTOR in 2013 (1 year) and $280 mill or more for several classic arcade games over their lifetime, before inflation adjustments. Looks impressive.
You're doing this on purpose, right? I mean...literally the very next bullet spells out specifics of the $280 mil game.
Kind of. I'm not sure what you're trying to "prove", but again $280 mil the first 2 years (Donkey Kong) vs $139 in one year (SWTOR). How much did SWTOR make in its first 2 years? How much has SWTOR made over 12 years, like the number for Defender?
You do per year math, but use decades of data vs 1 year of data. Did SWTOR make 138 mil EVERY year it's been out? What is it's average? You compare "average" of an industry with 1 year of one game and think it represents... what? You think is a fair comparison? Just curious...
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I know it's a small thing and probably not many people care. But it has always bothered me. Selling cosmetic items in a cash shop is generally seen as an acceptable practice. And yet that has allowed for a subtle but steady shift away from the immersive virtual worlds I miss so dearly these days.
Cosmetic items: clothing, mounts, pets, titles, auras etc. These used to be part of the game itself. Part of the lore. Perhaps a side quest somewhere. Or tied into a crafting system.
But they are not anymore. They are in a store. And the devs get a pat on the back because at least they aren't selling combat buffs.
I guess I just don't belong in this new style of mmorpg. Even my mmo of choice does it. Best I can do is try to ignore it. My preferred play style is becoming a niche of a niche of a niche lol. Oh well. Nothing lasts forever
I am with you OP, you know what really gets me upset? Medieval themed games with people dressed in bikinis or some stupid clothing from the 20th century, and the dolls clothing and stupid hats that dont have a thing to do or motorcycles in a medieval themed game, wow.
Kind of. I'm not sure what you're trying to "prove", but again $280 mil the first 2 years (Donkey Kong) vs $139 in one year (SWTOR). How much did SWTOR make in its first 2 years? How much has SWTOR made over 12 years, like the number for Defender?
You do per year math, but use decades of data vs 1 year of data. Did SWTOR make 138 mil EVERY year it's been out? What is it's average? You compare "average" of an industry with 1 year of one game and think it represents... what? You think is a fair comparison? Just curious...
Someone made a comment about classic arcade game revenue probably being worse than SWTOR, so with literally 20 seconds of google and a few minutes posting the data I made a post about how several classic arcade games have generated more revenue than SWTOR. That's it. That's why we don't have more data points for SWTOR (I imagine at least one more year worth of data might be out there on the internet somewhere.)
We don't need 12 years of SWTOR data. We know Defender managed an impressive $83 mil/year over 12 years. We know that consumable entertainment products have huge opening revenue followed by a long tail decline. (I mean, I hope you understand that the number of Harry Potter 1 movies sold last year is miniscule compared with the number of its release year 14 years ago.) So it seems a very safe assumption to say it very probably made more than $138 mil in its first year (and possibly the second.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Well, I'm about 20 years older than you are, if your profile is honest. There were no other real video games at the time except the Atari and a couple fringe consoles. They didn't have arcade level of graphics or gameplay though. At the time computer programs were loaded through cassette tape drives or if you were rich a 51/4 inch floppy drive, but those were rare.
So the appeal was such that in a small town or neighborhood people would socialize at the arcade. If you were good you could get your initials on the top 10 list with the best times. It was social, competitive, and a status symbol amongst the geeks.
I stopped playing them a few years later once I discovered a Mac IIc in the schools resource center and this crazy thing called Ultima 3.
My profile is honest. I do remember casette / cartridge computers and home consoles. I did own Commodore C-64 with tape casettes as a way to store programs as very small kid. I do remember one of my friends owning Pegasus console.
I do understand the appeal of room filled with arcade game, there even was such a place in my city and I even went there once as a 8 or 9 year old kid. (well it was in 90s and those arcade games had better graphics than this simple arcade "shooter" you posted. Aside of shooters there were also some combat & racing games there)
I did quickly lose my interest though. Even though it was fun, and there was a sense of socializing and competition there I still did lose interest quickly - being there did swallow my saved pocket money very quickly and it seemed well "unfair".
So I did not come back.
Similarly I cannot understand people spending their whole paychecks(or going into debt) paying hundreads or even thousands $ per month in early 90s on pay per hour online games.
Originally posted by nbtscan Just another sign of the times I guess. I personally will not pay for cosmetic items, but I know people with disposable income that eats that shit up.
Good for you .. your friends are subsidizing your gaming.
Originally posted by the420kid those days are over my friend. Just be thankful they only sell cos... /snip
Nope, I won't be 'just thankful'.
We have seen what broad market compliance and acceptance of what the market wants us to want has done to MMORPGs over the years.
No more.
Consumers shape this genre, not devs. Everyone needs to wake up and realise that. We just need to stop accepting the social engineering hype crap and paying for the cash shop rubbish that they are pushing.
Sooner the AAA devs, including 'Daybreak', leave the space the better.
This.
Consumers have the power. The problem is the mainstream nature of the industry post 2007ish. The lowest common dominator rules now. Not passionate veteran MMO gamers.
The way mmo's were: Community, Exploration, Character Development, Conquest.
The way mmo's are now : Cut-Scenes,Cut-Scenes, solo Questing, Cut-Scenes...
Consumers have the power. The problem is the mainstream nature of the industry post 2007ish. The lowest common dominator rules now. Not passionate veteran MMO gamers.
It is not a problem unless you are one of those niche passionate "true" MMO gamers.
Given there are so much entertainment out there, I really don't think a lot of people will want to serious time in just one virtual world game.
Originally posted by Axehilt Originally posted by AlBQuirkyKind of. I'm not sure what you're trying to "prove", but again $280 mil the first 2 years (Donkey Kong) vs $139 in one year (SWTOR). How much did SWTOR make in its first 2 years? How much has SWTOR made over 12 years, like the number for Defender?You do per year math, but use decades of data vs 1 year of data. Did SWTOR make 138 mil EVERY year it's been out? What is it's average? You compare "average" of an industry with 1 year of one game and think it represents... what? You think is a fair comparison? Just curious...
Someone made a comment about classic arcade game revenue probably being worse than SWTOR, so with literally 20 seconds of google and a few minutes posting the data I made a post about how several classic arcade games have generated more revenue than SWTOR. That's it. That's why we don't have more data points for SWTOR (I imagine at least one more year worth of data might be out there on the internet somewhere.)
We don't need 12 years of SWTOR data. We know Defender managed an impressive $83 mil/year over 12 years. We know that consumable entertainment products have huge opening revenue followed by a long tail decline. (I mean, I hope you understand that the number of Harry Potter 1 movies sold last year is miniscule compared with the number of its release year 14 years ago.) So it seems a very safe assumption to say it very probably made more than $138 mil in its first year (and possibly the second.)
I already clarified the point of why I brought up swtor and the original post I was replying to. ANd further debunked your math. Regardless it is off topic. So please stop pulling this swtor stuff up. The point I made wasnt directly referring to that anyway and now you're just hanging onto a misinterpreted sentence that was never really the point of this thread.
I am perhaps one of the most cosmetically-driven players in the genre. I can spend hours in my Guild Wars 2 wardrobe mix-and-matching to come up with new and improved appearances for my characters, as well as planning out outfits for new alts. If there is anyone who should ever take issue with this, it would be me.
But the thing is, I'm perfectly fine with it. The games generally give you plenty of appealing aesthetics to earn and many of them have currency conversion as part of the model so you can earn the cash shop cosmetics anyway.
And, in some small way, I consider the option to buy a cosmetic to be a blessing. When I feel like a game developer has earned my respect, I enjoy returning the favor. I'll gladly pay for a cosmetic that I want, so long as they respect me enough to not lock it behind a RNG chest.
Originally posted by Scot Stop giving them ideas, or we will go from P2W/casino MMOs to Pay as you Play. Every minute in game will cost 50p or something. Most gaming companies have abandoned gaming ethos, only cash ethos directs them now. So if you think Pay as you Play would be unthinkable, well that's what we used to think about cash shops.
You would have hated the internet pre-1995 then. ISPs and online gaming were both pay by the hour.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Comments
Was wondering...
I don't have a problem with cosmetic outfits in a cash shop, even if they can't be earned in normal game play. My preference would be a wide variety of (IP appropriate) outfits available exclusively through a cash shop, and an equal number of outfits available exclusively through game play. I'd prefer both types of outfits to be plentiful, and exclusive.
One thing that really annoys me is a cash shop filled with hundreds of nice-looking outfits, but there are only a handful of appearance choices available in the game. If, through quests and in-game accomplishments, I become a guard of a particular city, I shouldn't have to purchase the nifty uniform in the cash shop.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Why is it interesting? Please tell me you're capable of doing the simple math involved. It's literally one subtraction and one division operation.
Heck my version of the post even did all the math for you.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
and they don't do it in the same game. The newest CoD with Kevin Spacey is not the same as Black Ops 2.
May be MMOs should learn from that. Forget about one game that goes from years. Do a different game every year.
Yeh .. i don't consider any sub-only games anymore. And even if there is one that sounds interesting, it will go b2p or f2p soon.
But I don't particularly care about "p2w reduction methods". If i play solo, there is no p2w. It does not affect me at all. Now pay wall is another matter .. but that is not the subject of this topic.
We know the years involved. We know the total revenue.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
A repost of your own post, though I did not address it specifically:
Yet the first 2 bullet points say "138 mill for SWTOR in 2013 (1 year) and $280 mill or more for several classic arcade games over their lifetime, before inflation adjustments. Looks impressive.I know this and Torval's posts were a response to another, but I wonder why 2013 was chosen to represent SWTOR? Was that the best year for them? Is it the latest data year for them? It just seems strange to me that one year from one MMO was used vs a whole industry's lifetime earnings. what percentage of arcade games made more? Is this a form ganking?
I'm not trying to say one way or another which is "more lucrative", but using lifetime earnings vs 1 year earnings in your first 2 bullet points sets the tone. I am duly chastised.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
One subtraction. One division. This is not rocket surgery.
Ok well you left out some math so here goes.
You said 83 million a year for Defender, right? It sold 60,000 units. So divide 83 mil by 60k and you get a what each of the 60,000 businesses made on the Defender cabinet they owned. So Joe's Pizza made about 1400 bucks on their defender machine in 1984 and so on down the line. And guess how much of that 1400 they had to give to Williams Entertainment? Zero.
Now take the 139 million dollars SWTOR made last year and divide that by 1 and give it to EA.
My original reply to this nonsensical debate was some poster claimed that classic video games were more greedy than the cash shops we have today. When in fact they revenue generated from classic video games was distributed among tens of thousands of small businesses around the world and the developers never saw a dime beyond the initial cabinet sale.
You're doing this on purpose, right? I mean...literally the very next bullet spells out specifics of the $280 mil game.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
They already know the idea.
Pay as you play is older than sub. (In particular, for example, Kingdom of Drakkar charged $2 per hour).
This will never happen because of the competition. If i can play a large part of games for free, why would i ever pay for play?
You do per year math, but use decades of data vs 1 year of data. Did SWTOR make 138 mil EVERY year it's been out? What is it's average? You compare "average" of an industry with 1 year of one game and think it represents... what? You think is a fair comparison? Just curious...
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I am with you OP, you know what really gets me upset? Medieval themed games with people dressed in bikinis or some stupid clothing from the 20th century, and the dolls clothing and stupid hats that dont have a thing to do or motorcycles in a medieval themed game, wow.
want 7 free days of playing? Try this
http://www.swtor.com/r/ZptVnY
Someone made a comment about classic arcade game revenue probably being worse than SWTOR, so with literally 20 seconds of google and a few minutes posting the data I made a post about how several classic arcade games have generated more revenue than SWTOR. That's it. That's why we don't have more data points for SWTOR (I imagine at least one more year worth of data might be out there on the internet somewhere.)
We don't need 12 years of SWTOR data. We know Defender managed an impressive $83 mil/year over 12 years. We know that consumable entertainment products have huge opening revenue followed by a long tail decline. (I mean, I hope you understand that the number of Harry Potter 1 movies sold last year is miniscule compared with the number of its release year 14 years ago.) So it seems a very safe assumption to say it very probably made more than $138 mil in its first year (and possibly the second.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
My profile is honest. I do remember casette / cartridge computers and home consoles. I did own Commodore C-64 with tape casettes as a way to store programs as very small kid. I do remember one of my friends owning Pegasus console.
I do understand the appeal of room filled with arcade game, there even was such a place in my city and I even went there once as a 8 or 9 year old kid. (well it was in 90s and those arcade games had better graphics than this simple arcade "shooter" you posted. Aside of shooters there were also some combat & racing games there)
I did quickly lose my interest though. Even though it was fun, and there was a sense of socializing and competition there I still did lose interest quickly - being there did swallow my saved pocket money very quickly and it seemed well "unfair".
So I did not come back.
Similarly I cannot understand people spending their whole paychecks(or going into debt) paying hundreads or even thousands $ per month in early 90s on pay per hour online games.
Good for you .. your friends are subsidizing your gaming.
This.
Consumers have the power. The problem is the mainstream nature of the industry post 2007ish. The lowest common dominator rules now. Not passionate veteran MMO gamers.
The way mmo's were: Community, Exploration, Character Development, Conquest.
The way mmo's are now : Cut-Scenes,Cut-Scenes, solo Questing, Cut-Scenes...
www.CeaselessGuild.com
It is not a problem unless you are one of those niche passionate "true" MMO gamers.
Given there are so much entertainment out there, I really don't think a lot of people will want to serious time in just one virtual world game.
We don't need 12 years of SWTOR data. We know Defender managed an impressive $83 mil/year over 12 years. We know that consumable entertainment products have huge opening revenue followed by a long tail decline. (I mean, I hope you understand that the number of Harry Potter 1 movies sold last year is miniscule compared with the number of its release year 14 years ago.) So it seems a very safe assumption to say it very probably made more than $138 mil in its first year (and possibly the second.)
I already clarified the point of why I brought up swtor and the original post I was replying to. ANd further debunked your math. Regardless it is off topic. So please stop pulling this swtor stuff up. The point I made wasnt directly referring to that anyway and now you're just hanging onto a misinterpreted sentence that was never really the point of this thread.
I am perhaps one of the most cosmetically-driven players in the genre. I can spend hours in my Guild Wars 2 wardrobe mix-and-matching to come up with new and improved appearances for my characters, as well as planning out outfits for new alts. If there is anyone who should ever take issue with this, it would be me.
But the thing is, I'm perfectly fine with it. The games generally give you plenty of appealing aesthetics to earn and many of them have currency conversion as part of the model so you can earn the cash shop cosmetics anyway.
And, in some small way, I consider the option to buy a cosmetic to be a blessing. When I feel like a game developer has earned my respect, I enjoy returning the favor. I'll gladly pay for a cosmetic that I want, so long as they respect me enough to not lock it behind a RNG chest.
You would have hated the internet pre-1995 then. ISPs and online gaming were both pay by the hour.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre