There is absolutely no way to progress my character without combat and imo that is the way it should be because what you are progressing is skills that are almost ALWAYS related to combat.
I detest questing handing out experience,it has NOTHING to do with being a better Warrior or Mage,they are simply errands or favors for a NPC.I also detest handing out free experience for standing on some new pixel in a map,retarded idea that again has NOTHING to do with being a better Warrior.
Then we get some games that just hand out auto offline skills,that again is VERY lame.Then some allow you to advance just through crafting,sure that SHOULD advance your crafting skill,but not your skill as a WARRIOR.
It simply comes down to simple logic and most developers don't have it,they simply just make systems that makes no sense at all for the sake of adding a leveling tool.Just as in real life you become better at something by DOING IT,that actual action.You don't become a better hockey player learning how to cook pancakes or how to travel to a foreign land and walk on it's ground.
SO the question here is basically saying,if we took hockey sticks,pucks and ice out of your hockey ,would it still have the quality and content to advance me as a hockey player,there is no logic in that analogy.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
You can't really top the stakes which combat presents. Combat activities typically involve "you kill it, or it kills you". There isn't much that can carry more weight than that. You can acquire wealth, perhaps a racing or sport game. You can be a master craftsman. But none of those activities carry the significance of life or death. Thus they are treated as mini games or something to do when you're bored or waiting in a queue for some combat activity.
When you remove combat altogether, you remove mortality and something else takes its place. The reality of death is not at the forefront of or minds in this day and age. So things like professional sports become vaulted to a level of importance that may not have been otherwise.
So yes an mmo and it's combat are paramount. If your character chooses not to engage, what are their options and how much importance can you vest in them? Game designers balance that constantly. Adding or subtracting weight to various activities.
Right, and that's certainly the strength of combat games and the reason they're most popular. But while I wouldn't enter a popularity contest with a non-combat game as my contender, there's still a market for em and they can be tons of fun.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Originally posted by Quirhid None of the MMOs I've played would fare well without combat in them. Is that what you were after?
Not really but I appreciate your input. I'm more after discovering things about MMOs that I may not have known. For instance, if I did not do any combat in ESO, what would my play sessions look like? What type of character advancement is available to me? How diverse are the activities. Things like that.
Should there be any character advancement opportunities outside of combat? Tycoons and other economic simulators, Sim Cities and Sims do all those things better than MMOs do.
Who wants to be a lvl 80 farmer?
They absolutely matter. And I'll be a lvl 80 farmer haha! In fact, I think I may have been one in a previous mmo
I had a max level farmer in Dofus, I believe. I'm waiting for a good MMOsim where I can farm and build all day, though preferably it would include drophunting monsters for crafting mats.
I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story. So PM me if you are starting one.
Originally posted by Uziduke Vanguard was fine without the combat, so much more to do in that game. RIP Vanguard.
I played Diplomacy and crafting almost exclusively in Vanguard. The game has progression like Horizons/Istaria in that each path had its own leveling, gear and rewards.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Uziduke Vanguard was fine without the combat, so much more to do in that game. RIP Vanguard.
I played Diplomacy and crafting almost exclusively in Vanguard. The game has progression like Horizons/Istaria in that each path had its own leveling, gear and rewards.
This
I did try just leveling Diplomacy on one toon and it did not go well. There was a point where I had to go to areas where I would agro monsters easily. Some of the diplomacy quests presumed that your combat was at least a certain level.
There may have been a way to avoid the problem I was having, I just did not know it.
“It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money - that's all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot - it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.”
Originally posted by Uziduke Vanguard was fine without the combat, so much more to do in that game. RIP Vanguard.
I played Diplomacy and crafting almost exclusively in Vanguard. The game has progression like Horizons/Istaria in that each path had its own leveling, gear and rewards.
This
I did try just leveling Diplomacy on one toon and it did not go well. There was a point where I had to go to areas where I would agro monsters easily. Some of the diplomacy quests presumed that your combat was at least a certain level.
There may have been a way to avoid the problem I was having, I just did not know it.
A decent mount and stealth helps.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Uziduke Vanguard was fine without the combat, so much more to do in that game. RIP Vanguard.
I played Diplomacy and crafting almost exclusively in Vanguard. The game has progression like Horizons/Istaria in that each path had its own leveling, gear and rewards.
This
I did try just leveling Diplomacy on one toon and it did not go well. There was a point where I had to go to areas where I would agro monsters easily. Some of the diplomacy quests presumed that your combat was at least a certain level.
There may have been a way to avoid the problem I was having, I just did not know it.
A decent mount and stealth helps.
I had the flying mount, just not stealth. Does not matter now. Vanguard and SWG are the only two games I have played where there was options outside of combat.
“It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money - that's all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot - it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.”
Probably the main mmos I have played would fair very poorly without combat.
However I still have my level 1 warrior in wow which I have quite a few hours /played. So what did I do? I role played with other people in golds hire lol. I rolled on an rp server in classic wow just to troll more so than anything but it turned out to be quite fun and spent quite a few hours role playing.
Nowadays I am not sure if they still have these roleplaying servers but wow certainly has more noncombat stuff. You can battle pets and you can get to max level through exploring crafting gathering only. You can also do archaeology to learn more about the Warcraft lore. And you can do quests which don't require you to kill monsters and wow has a lot more of those nowadays than back in classic.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Originally posted by Octagon7711 Games that give you xp when off line would allow you to level without combat. Eve you can go straight to a station and never leave and just level and trade. Most MMO's you would be stuck at level one but could make it to an auction house and become a trader.
What are you trading? Who is buying? Remember that the OP isn't presenting a scenario where you don't personally engage in combat, he is presenting one where combat is no longer gameplay.
Games that give you xp when off line would allow you to level without combat. Eve you can go straight to a station and never leave and just level and trade. Most MMO's you would be stuck at level one but could make it to an auction house and become a trader.
What are you trading? Who is buying? Remember that the OP isn't presenting a scenario where you don't personally engage in combat, he is presenting one where combat is no longer gameplay.
Actually, no, as that's a game that was designed from the beginning without combat.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by SavageHorizon Originally posted by Loktofeit Originally posted by Octagon7711 Games that give you xp when off line would allow you to level without combat. Eve you can go straight to a station and never leave and just level and trade. Most MMO's you would be stuck at level one but could make it to an auction house and become a trader.
What are you trading? Who is buying? Remember that the OP isn't presenting a scenario where you don't personally engage in combat, he is presenting one where combat is no longer gameplay.
Actually, no, as that's a game that was designed from the beginning without combat.
Actually yes, whether it was designed from the beginning is irrelevant. Fact is it's a social mmo without combat which I play now and again. The op asked the question "how does your mmo fare without combat " atitd answers his question.
Games that give you xp when off line would allow you to level without combat. Eve you can go straight to a station and never leave and just level and trade. Most MMO's you would be stuck at level one but could make it to an auction house and become a trader.
What are you trading? Who is buying? Remember that the OP isn't presenting a scenario where you don't personally engage in combat, he is presenting one where combat is no longer gameplay.
Actually, no, as that's a game that was designed from the beginning without combat.
Actually yes, whether it was designed from the beginning is irrelevant. Fact is it's a social mmo without combat which I play now and again. The op asked the question "how does your mmo fare without combat " atitd answers his question.
Ah, I misunderstood then. When you wrote "has all your answers" I thought you were replying to me in the thread you were quoting and not to the OP. My mistake.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I'm curious about this. This isn't a "my mmo is better than yours" thread. I don't get to play as many different MMOs these days as I used to.
Proposal: Remove combat from the MMO you are currently paying. What is left? Are the other systems robust enough to add meaningful progression? Would you still play it long term(assuming you do now)? Or is what's remaining a husk of a game. Maybe it's all mini games with no lasting appeal. Maybe it's all mini games with long term goals. Perhaps it is more or less than you previously had thought.
Thanks in advance for keeping this civil and for the sake of wanting to know more about what is out there.
The discussion in this thread seems to have derailed somewhat from the original post.
I don't know of any "mainstream" MMO's that were ever NOT completely and fundamentally designed around combat. In fact, there's only one example I can think of that's even vaguely known: "A Tale in the Desert". It had no combat of any sort, but there was loads of competition and co-op play involved.
I have played a few mainstream MMO's where it was possible to largely avoid combat, even if combat was central to the game:
In SWG I was a crafter (chef/bio engineer) almost exclusively for most of my 3 years in that game. Combat wasn't really a viable option for a pure crafter (other than "hunting" Corellian butterflies...).
In EVE-Online I played as a trader/manufacturer/researcher for long periods of time (but never exclusively).
In Vanguard I spent a significant amount of time engaged in the Diplomacy mini-game
It may also be possible to "survive" in ESO as a crafter for much of the game, but I doubt that it's practical at high levels.
Even as a crafter in MMO's, 99% of the items you make are combat-related. That has become more true the further MMO's move away from the concept of being a "virtual world". Who's needs furniture if there's no player housing ? Who needs casual clothes if you're only ever running dungeons or waiting in the queue to join a BG ?
Competition in games doesn't HAVE TO involve killing your opponent (there are many other ways of competing), but combat is probably the easiest and most visceral way to generate the maximum amount of excitement and stimulation in the medium of a video game. Besides, games present an ideal way to express those primal destructive urges without having any RL consequences.
You could play Runescape for years without fighting, and become very rich and influential back in the day. Still might be able to, haven't played it in years. There was some 'beginner area' fighting, so I think the minimum combat level was 2 or 3. 'Skillers' were min combat level on purpose. I also had clan mates that didn't do much outside of hang out in their houses decorating, and hosting pizza parties and other social events.
Originally posted by DMKano SInce I haven't made any MMOs - none of them are *my MMOs* :P
Seriously - can we just call them games we play not "our games"?
Most of the ones I play would not fare well at all
some would do better than others - like Trove - you could build to you heart's content and craft most things, ArcheAge would do ok as far as farming some crafting, sailing and fishing.
But most games are so combat centric - it would be a no go.
Really? I mean your mmo as in the one you call home right now. Your jam. Your go to. I already said this wasnt a pissing contest. Everyone has been playing nice so far. Relax.
I think most MMOs have focused on combat primarily with with small minigames as a thin alternative Take GW2, for instance. Sure you can avoid the combat but the minigames (crafting, exploring/jumping puzzles, playing the AH) are really secondary.
There have been games (primarily sandboxes) that have offered more robust alternate activities to combat (UO, SWG), but again combat has always been the central focus. This really goes back to CRPGs where the trend has been to be combat-centric than roleplay focused.
It's an interesting question, though. A lot of MMOs don't offer much aside from crafting (AoC for instance, at least when I last played it years ago). Same goes with many other themeparks.
But I'd like to see more development in other means of gameplay. This might be due to the fact that ultimately I prefer sandboxes over themeparks. But a good question to ask about an MMORPG is, how strong is the game outside of combat? If it is weak, I think the game falls out of the MMORPG realm and leans more towards an MMO-type gameplay. Nothing wrong with that. But there are some who enjoy activities outside of combat.
Bringing experiences in our real lives into an mmo environment might be a good start. Activities which allows us to be creative, work together, be competitive etc.
Not a direct translation of course. Something resembling an activity like an organized sport, a live performance, landscaping and architecture. Crank up the fantasy seeing on what those could be in a virtual world, add game elements such as pattern recognition, reaction time, template planning. Create a reward system that recognizes players for their efforts. And I think you start to create a non combat mmo with meaningful content, deep character customization and progression, as well as a sense of community.
How are you supposed to "win" if you have no combat?
This is a very interesting question.....why do you have to "win"?
In a linear game, single or multiplayer, you "win" all the time. You cant loose, as that would mean no progression.
But in a sandbox, winning has an entirely different meaning. Instead of success/defeat, you have to have other motivations...they could be reputation (being a good player), wealth from trading, respect from making great crafted items.
A game where combat plays a lesser role is something i would welcome and gladly play.
A LOT of the games I played fare very well without combat, or at worst well without combat if someone choose to not participate.
EvE there are a lot of people that don't particpate in combat, though the game would shatter to pieces if combat were removed. Though I could see the game very very easily adapted to the player themselves hiring NPC's to do all the fighting for them.
WurmOnline. Considering when I played I spent less than an hour a month in combat(this was when I was deep down the rabit hole of MMO's and playing too much), not much would be changed. You're shoved in a world, work your way up to being able to survive easier... and then AFTER that core loop was complete players then found time to raise combat skills and siege each other.
Haven and Hearth. Same thing with wurmonline, except that the crafting mechanics are WAY more extensive. At least when I played the process of making cheese almost fell into "game design" porn(maybe not for single player games, but when compared to MMO's it is/was) with how well the developers made it work with everything else.
Second Life. Played it, paid for some college text books in schools with the income I drew out of it. Outstanding building tools and similar. And playing in a community that is there for being social was kind of interesting for me, since I was used to the community being there to "advance/kill/wander". There is no combat persay, but it was built in for RPG worlds(battletech, and sword and sorcery).
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
Comments
There is absolutely no way to progress my character without combat and imo that is the way it should be because what you are progressing is skills that are almost ALWAYS related to combat.
I detest questing handing out experience,it has NOTHING to do with being a better Warrior or Mage,they are simply errands or favors for a NPC.I also detest handing out free experience for standing on some new pixel in a map,retarded idea that again has NOTHING to do with being a better Warrior.
Then we get some games that just hand out auto offline skills,that again is VERY lame.Then some allow you to advance just through crafting,sure that SHOULD advance your crafting skill,but not your skill as a WARRIOR.
It simply comes down to simple logic and most developers don't have it,they simply just make systems that makes no sense at all for the sake of adding a leveling tool.Just as in real life you become better at something by DOING IT,that actual action.You don't become a better hockey player learning how to cook pancakes or how to travel to a foreign land and walk on it's ground.
SO the question here is basically saying,if we took hockey sticks,pucks and ice out of your hockey ,would it still have the quality and content to advance me as a hockey player,there is no logic in that analogy.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Right, and that's certainly the strength of combat games and the reason they're most popular. But while I wouldn't enter a popularity contest with a non-combat game as my contender, there's still a market for em and they can be tons of fun.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I had a max level farmer in Dofus, I believe. I'm waiting for a good MMOsim where I can farm and build all day, though preferably it would include drophunting monsters for crafting mats.
I played Diplomacy and crafting almost exclusively in Vanguard. The game has progression like Horizons/Istaria in that each path had its own leveling, gear and rewards.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
This
I did try just leveling Diplomacy on one toon and it did not go well. There was a point where I had to go to areas where I would agro monsters easily. Some of the diplomacy quests presumed that your combat was at least a certain level.
There may have been a way to avoid the problem I was having, I just did not know it.
--John Ruskin
A decent mount and stealth helps.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I had the flying mount, just not stealth. Does not matter now. Vanguard and SWG are the only two games I have played where there was options outside of combat.
--John Ruskin
Op
THE ONLY reason I buy an mmo is the promise of world class faction vs faction conflict.(DAOC is the current gold standard)
Take faction conflict away and I'm G O N E .
However I still have my level 1 warrior in wow which I have quite a few hours /played. So what did I do? I role played with other people in golds hire lol. I rolled on an rp server in classic wow just to troll more so than anything but it turned out to be quite fun and spent quite a few hours role playing.
Nowadays I am not sure if they still have these roleplaying servers but wow certainly has more noncombat stuff. You can battle pets and you can get to max level through exploring crafting gathering only. You can also do archaeology to learn more about the Warcraft lore. And you can do quests which don't require you to kill monsters and wow has a lot more of those nowadays than back in classic.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
What are you trading? Who is buying? Remember that the OP isn't presenting a scenario where you don't personally engage in combat, he is presenting one where combat is no longer gameplay.
A Tail In The Desert has all your answers. http://www.atitd.com/Actually, no, as that's a game that was designed from the beginning without combat.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
What are you trading? Who is buying? Remember that the OP isn't presenting a scenario where you don't personally engage in combat, he is presenting one where combat is no longer gameplay.
A Tail In The Desert has all your answers. http://www.atitd.com/Actually, no, as that's a game that was designed from the beginning without combat.
Actually yes, whether it was designed from the beginning is irrelevant. Fact is it's a social mmo without combat which I play now and again. The op asked the question "how does your mmo fare without combat " atitd answers his question.Ah, I misunderstood then. When you wrote "has all your answers" I thought you were replying to me in the thread you were quoting and not to the OP. My mistake.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The discussion in this thread seems to have derailed somewhat from the original post.
I don't know of any "mainstream" MMO's that were ever NOT completely and fundamentally designed around combat. In fact, there's only one example I can think of that's even vaguely known: "A Tale in the Desert". It had no combat of any sort, but there was loads of competition and co-op play involved.
I have played a few mainstream MMO's where it was possible to largely avoid combat, even if combat was central to the game:
You could play Runescape for years without fighting, and become very rich and influential back in the day. Still might be able to, haven't played it in years. There was some 'beginner area' fighting, so I think the minimum combat level was 2 or 3. 'Skillers' were min combat level on purpose. I also had clan mates that didn't do much outside of hang out in their houses decorating, and hosting pizza parties and other social events.
I think most MMOs have focused on combat primarily with with small minigames as a thin alternative Take GW2, for instance. Sure you can avoid the combat but the minigames (crafting, exploring/jumping puzzles, playing the AH) are really secondary.
There have been games (primarily sandboxes) that have offered more robust alternate activities to combat (UO, SWG), but again combat has always been the central focus. This really goes back to CRPGs where the trend has been to be combat-centric than roleplay focused.
It's an interesting question, though. A lot of MMOs don't offer much aside from crafting (AoC for instance, at least when I last played it years ago). Same goes with many other themeparks.
But I'd like to see more development in other means of gameplay. This might be due to the fact that ultimately I prefer sandboxes over themeparks. But a good question to ask about an MMORPG is, how strong is the game outside of combat? If it is weak, I think the game falls out of the MMORPG realm and leans more towards an MMO-type gameplay. Nothing wrong with that. But there are some who enjoy activities outside of combat.
Bringing experiences in our real lives into an mmo environment might be a good start. Activities which allows us to be creative, work together, be competitive etc.
Not a direct translation of course. Something resembling an activity like an organized sport, a live performance, landscaping and architecture. Crank up the fantasy seeing on what those could be in a virtual world, add game elements such as pattern recognition, reaction time, template planning. Create a reward system that recognizes players for their efforts. And I think you start to create a non combat mmo with meaningful content, deep character customization and progression, as well as a sense of community.
This is a very interesting question.....why do you have to "win"?
In a linear game, single or multiplayer, you "win" all the time. You cant loose, as that would mean no progression.
But in a sandbox, winning has an entirely different meaning. Instead of success/defeat, you have to have other motivations...they could be reputation (being a good player), wealth from trading, respect from making great crafted items.
A game where combat plays a lesser role is something i would welcome and gladly play.
A LOT of the games I played fare very well without combat, or at worst well without combat if someone choose to not participate.
EvE there are a lot of people that don't particpate in combat, though the game would shatter to pieces if combat were removed. Though I could see the game very very easily adapted to the player themselves hiring NPC's to do all the fighting for them.
WurmOnline. Considering when I played I spent less than an hour a month in combat(this was when I was deep down the rabit hole of MMO's and playing too much), not much would be changed. You're shoved in a world, work your way up to being able to survive easier... and then AFTER that core loop was complete players then found time to raise combat skills and siege each other.
Haven and Hearth. Same thing with wurmonline, except that the crafting mechanics are WAY more extensive. At least when I played the process of making cheese almost fell into "game design" porn(maybe not for single player games, but when compared to MMO's it is/was) with how well the developers made it work with everything else.
Second Life. Played it, paid for some college text books in schools with the income I drew out of it. Outstanding building tools and similar. And playing in a community that is there for being social was kind of interesting for me, since I was used to the community being there to "advance/kill/wander". There is no combat persay, but it was built in for RPG worlds(battletech, and sword and sorcery).
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."