No he was talking about RPG...R=ROLE p=PLAYING.We all know the three letters MMO means absolutely NOTHING now a days.
If you are following quest trackers and markers on a map ,it is a game on rails and NOT YOUR game,it is SUPPOSE to be YOUR ROLE PLAYING game ,but since it is laid out for EVERY single player to play identical ,it fails in it's design,weather you like to admit it or not.
You're an unusual one.
You've named yourself after a very early videogame RPG. It involved progression, combat, and a little story. It was an RPG.
MMORPGs involve progression, combat, and a little story. They are RPGs.
Sometimes players come by and pretend MMORPGs aren't RPGs and I can imagine them simply being ignorant of the 35+ long years of RPGs' history. But not someone who takes Wizardry as their name. That's harder to chew, unless it's completely coincidental (named after the concept of wizardry, rather than the game Wizardry.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Quest helpers and trackers contribute to diffrent game enviroment.
When those tools are in-game players behave diffrently because they are more self-sufficiant.
Generally thought quest helpers and trackers are only a small portion of this. There are many other tools and design decisions that affect mmorpg's/ virtual worlds.
Originally posted by Loke666
To be honest is part of the problem with trackers the fact that they do very badly together with he simple idiot quests we had since Meridian 59 (kill 10 rats in the moat, take this message to my brother who are 10 feets west of me). With long and advanced quests they are far less annoying (but still not good).
Actually it is other way around. When you have complex, sophisticated and engaging quests then you don't need quest trackers at all - gameplay benefit most from not having it.
When you have "go kill 10 rats quest" then it does not benefit much from not having quest tracker.
The simpler the game is the more beneficial is to have quest tracker.
The more complex and engaging game is - the more beneficial is to NOT have quest trackers and helper.
What are your examples? That's the thing about these discussions, many write things that just leave one scratching their head. As I don't know what games you're comparing. One of the deepest "questing" games I've played in recent years, (skyrim) has a quest tracking system, as did Oblivion... The deepest/most interesting MMORPG IMO I've ever played has one (SWG.. even during Pre-cu)...
Both of these titles offered interesting mechanics as well as adventure.. Both point your way to go when you have an actual objective given to you. SWG does even when you don't... it will point you where ever you want to go on any planet arrow and all..only a few exceptions, like teh death watch bunker, and the Warren.
Many well done games NWN, etc.. don't even need one their worlds are so small too small to need it, and are more corridor like.. KOTOR as another example..
These are some of the more engaging games I've played, a game is a sum of all of it's parts after all, topics like this get far too hung up on small aspects. Most of the time missing the forest for the trees.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
What prevents you of reading the quest test, ignore helpers and find things by your own?
What forces you to use instant teleport? cant you go by foot?
Play the way you like it, if the mmo dont allow that, then is time to change and look for something that fits your play style.
Isnt that simple?
I hate this line of reasoning. I don't think its that simple. When others are gifted that knowledge and you yourself handicap yourself in order to bring up your immersion but then you are slowed down compared to everyone else
And that is what shouldn't matter to a person worried about immersion and/or role-playing... As those rushing through are not...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
No he was talking about RPG...R=ROLE p=PLAYING.We all know the three letters MMO means absolutely NOTHING now a days.
If you are following quest trackers and markers on a map ,it is a game on rails and NOT YOUR game,it is SUPPOSE to be YOUR ROLE PLAYING game ,but since it is laid out for EVERY single player to play identical ,it fails in it's design,weather you like to admit it or not.
You're an unusual one.
You've named yourself after a very early videogame RPG. It involved progression, combat, and a little story. It was an RPG.
MMORPGs involve progression, combat, and a little story. They are RPGs.
Sometimes players come by and pretend MMORPGs aren't RPGs and I can imagine them simply being ignorant of the 35+ long years of RPGs' history. But not someone who takes Wizardry as their name. That's harder to chew, unless it's completely coincidental (named after the concept of wizardry, rather than the game Wizardry.)
I'm hoping it's after the concept and not the game because his RPG-related posts would have Werdna rolling in his grave.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
What prevents you of reading the quest test, ignore helpers and find things by your own?
What forces you to use instant teleport? cant you go by foot?
Play the way you like it, if the mmo dont allow that, then is time to change and look for something that fits your play style.
Isnt that simple?
I hate this line of reasoning. I don't think its that simple. When others are gifted that knowledge and you yourself handicap yourself in order to bring up your immersion but then you are slowed down compared to everyone else
And that is what shouldn't matter to a person worried about immersion and/or role-playing... As those rushing through are not...
No, what matters to a person simply matters. It matters to me. It matters to me because you are in a multiplayer game and everyones actions affects you and if you are then completely out leveled by your ganking opposition because you chose to handicap yourself then I totally believe that it ruins your immersion also despite your attempts.
What prevents you of reading the quest test, ignore helpers and find things by your own?
What forces you to use instant teleport? cant you go by foot?
Play the way you like it, if the mmo dont allow that, then is time to change and look for something that fits your play style.
Isnt that simple?
I hate this line of reasoning. I don't think its that simple. When others are gifted that knowledge and you yourself handicap yourself in order to bring up your immersion but then you are slowed down compared to everyone else and you fall behind on purpose whereas everyone is steaming along with those freebie xp boosts from give me quests. I think its horseshit. The playing field is either level or its not. Now, some people ask well so what who cares if people steam past you while you're enjoying your game more. Well, i'm not then because i play games that are extremely pvp competitive and people having an advantage over someone else like that is just not acceptable to me. Now if people enjoy playing those games with quest trackers and such that's fine I don't wnat to take that away from anyone....but I would just love a game that does offer me the experience that I desire also hopefully in the next 10 years because the last 10 years have been absolute trash.
If you have to grind quests to be competitive in PvP solution is quite simple - dont play that game because it sucks ;P
What prevents you of reading the quest test, ignore helpers and find things by your own?
What forces you to use instant teleport? cant you go by foot?
Play the way you like it, if the mmo dont allow that, then is time to change and look for something that fits your play style.
Isnt that simple?
I hate this line of reasoning. I don't think its that simple. When others are gifted that knowledge and you yourself handicap yourself in order to bring up your immersion but then you are slowed down compared to everyone else and you fall behind on purpose whereas everyone is steaming along with those freebie xp boosts from give me quests. I think its horseshit. The playing field is either level or its not. Now, some people ask well so what who cares if people steam past you while you're enjoying your game more. Well, i'm not then because i play games that are extremely pvp competitive and people having an advantage over someone else like that is just not acceptable to me. Now if people enjoy playing those games with quest trackers and such that's fine I don't wnat to take that away from anyone....but I would just love a game that does offer me the experience that I desire also hopefully in the next 10 years because the last 10 years have been absolute trash.
If you have to grind quests to be competitive in PvP solution is quite simple - dont play that game because it sucks ;P
Yea i suppose this doesn't really apply to me anyways because i usually steer clear of that themepark design regardless and would just not have that issue. But theres a first for everything I was thinking about checking out GW2 and TESO after years of avoiding those kinds of games for a decade. I should stop myself
What prevents you of reading the quest test, ignore helpers and find things by your own?
What forces you to use instant teleport? cant you go by foot?
Play the way you like it, if the mmo dont allow that, then is time to change and look for something that fits your play style.
Isnt that simple?
I hate this line of reasoning. I don't think its that simple. When others are gifted that knowledge and you yourself handicap yourself in order to bring up your immersion but then you are slowed down compared to everyone else and you fall behind on purpose whereas everyone is steaming along with those freebie xp boosts from give me quests. I think its horseshit. The playing field is either level or its not. Now, some people ask well so what who cares if people steam past you while you're enjoying your game more. Well, i'm not then because i play games that are extremely pvp competitive and people having an advantage over someone else like that is just not acceptable to me. Now if people enjoy playing those games with quest trackers and such that's fine I don't wnat to take that away from anyone....but I would just love a game that does offer me the experience that I desire also hopefully in the next 10 years because the last 10 years have been absolute trash.
If you have to grind quests to be competitive in PvP solution is quite simple - dont play that game because it sucks ;P
Or better yet, he should play the no story, no leveling FPS games. So many FPS players pretending to like MMOs... I don't get it.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
What prevents you of reading the quest test, ignore helpers and find things by your own?
What forces you to use instant teleport? cant you go by foot?
Play the way you like it, if the mmo dont allow that, then is time to change and look for something that fits your play style.
Isnt that simple?
I hate this line of reasoning. I don't think its that simple. When others are gifted that knowledge and you yourself handicap yourself in order to bring up your immersion but then you are slowed down compared to everyone else
And that is what shouldn't matter to a person worried about immersion and/or role-playing... As those rushing through are not...
No, what matters to a person simply matters. It matters to me. It matters to me because you are in a multiplayer game and everyones actions affects you and if you are then completely out leveled by your ganking opposition because you chose to handicap yourself then I totally believe that it ruins your immersion also despite your attempts.
The point of them being multi-player is to place yourself in the crowd you connect with. That isn't supposed to be and will never be everyone playing..IF you're worried about being first to be top dog, that's on you and how you approach the game, it has nothing to with anything but you.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Even before quest helpers and trackers were in-game, do you know what we had? Allakhazam.com/game.
They may be bloating the UI in some games, but they are by no means ruining mmorpgs. Anyone who says so are being idiotic and clearly never played the old mmorpgs like Everquest and FFXI because everything had a detailed walkthrough complete with coordinates/directions/pictures an alt tab away. The only thing that changed is we no longer have to alt tab half as much anymore.
If people wanted to forego using a website that had the information back then, what's stopping people from not using quest trackers/helpers in-games now? Exactly.
What prevents you of reading the quest test, ignore helpers and find things by your own?
What forces you to use instant teleport? cant you go by foot?
Play the way you like it, if the mmo dont allow that, then is time to change and look for something that fits your play style.
Isnt that simple?
I hate this line of reasoning. I don't think its that simple. When others are gifted that knowledge and you yourself handicap yourself in order to bring up your immersion but then you are slowed down compared to everyone else and you fall behind on purpose whereas everyone is steaming along with those freebie xp boosts from give me quests. I think its horseshit. The playing field is either level or its not. Now, some people ask well so what who cares if people steam past you while you're enjoying your game more. Well, i'm not then because i play games that are extremely pvp competitive and people having an advantage over someone else like that is just not acceptable to me. Now if people enjoy playing those games with quest trackers and such that's fine I don't wnat to take that away from anyone....but I would just love a game that does offer me the experience that I desire also hopefully in the next 10 years because the last 10 years have been absolute trash.
If you have to grind quests to be competitive in PvP solution is quite simple - dont play that game because it sucks ;P
Or better yet, he should play the no story, no leveling FPS games. So many FPS players pretending to like MMOs... I don't get it.
Are you seriously implying that im an FPS gamer and don't deserve to play MMORPGS? I've been playing mmorpgs since 1998 man I mean wtf do i need to do to get approval like it matters from you the all mighty judge on the matter?
What prevents you of reading the quest test, ignore helpers and find things by your own?
What forces you to use instant teleport? cant you go by foot?
Play the way you like it, if the mmo dont allow that, then is time to change and look for something that fits your play style.
Isnt that simple?
I hate this line of reasoning. I don't think its that simple. When others are gifted that knowledge and you yourself handicap yourself in order to bring up your immersion but then you are slowed down compared to everyone else
And that is what shouldn't matter to a person worried about immersion and/or role-playing... As those rushing through are not...
No, what matters to a person simply matters. It matters to me. It matters to me because you are in a multiplayer game and everyones actions affects you and if you are then completely out leveled by your ganking opposition because you chose to handicap yourself then I totally believe that it ruins your immersion also despite your attempts.
The point of them being multi-player is to place yourself in the crowd you connect with. That isn't supposed to be and will never be everyone playing..IF you're worried about being first to be top dog, that's on you and how you approach the game, it has nothing to with anything but you.
Absolutely you're preaching to the choir, thats exactly what i stated in the first place. The quote above by me was cut off and not my entire post.
This site really has devolved to nothing more than bullies, constant repetitive rehtoric, and mods with agendas.
What prevents you of reading the quest test, ignore helpers and find things by your own?
What forces you to use instant teleport? cant you go by foot?
Play the way you like it, if the mmo dont allow that, then is time to change and look for something that fits your play style.
Isnt that simple?
I hate this line of reasoning. I don't think its that simple. When others are gifted that knowledge and you yourself handicap yourself in order to bring up your immersion but then you are slowed down compared to everyone else and you fall behind on purpose whereas everyone is steaming along with those freebie xp boosts from give me quests. I think its horseshit. The playing field is either level or its not. Now, some people ask well so what who cares if people steam past you while you're enjoying your game more. Well, i'm not then because i play games that are extremely pvp competitive and people having an advantage over someone else like that is just not acceptable to me. Now if people enjoy playing those games with quest trackers and such that's fine I don't wnat to take that away from anyone....but I would just love a game that does offer me the experience that I desire also hopefully in the next 10 years because the last 10 years have been absolute trash.
If you have to grind quests to be competitive in PvP solution is quite simple - dont play that game because it sucks ;P
Or better yet, he should play the no story, no leveling FPS games. So many FPS players pretending to like MMOs... I don't get it.
Are you seriously implying that im an FPS gamer and don't deserve to play MMORPGS? I've been playing mmorpgs since 1998 man I mean wtf do i need to do to get approval like it matters from you the all mighty judge on the matter?
I think what he is implying is an MMORPG is meant to be a slow burn form of entertainment, whereas an FPS is better suited to those who want to keep up with Pack and score well on ladder boards.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
What prevents you of reading the quest test, ignore helpers and find things by your own?
What forces you to use instant teleport? cant you go by foot?
Play the way you like it, if the mmo dont allow that, then is time to change and look for something that fits your play style.
Isnt that simple?
I hate this line of reasoning. I don't think its that simple. When others are gifted that knowledge and you yourself handicap yourself in order to bring up your immersion but then you are slowed down compared to everyone else and you fall behind on purpose whereas everyone is steaming along with those freebie xp boosts from give me quests. I think its horseshit. The playing field is either level or its not. Now, some people ask well so what who cares if people steam past you while you're enjoying your game more. Well, i'm not then because i play games that are extremely pvp competitive and people having an advantage over someone else like that is just not acceptable to me. Now if people enjoy playing those games with quest trackers and such that's fine I don't wnat to take that away from anyone....but I would just love a game that does offer me the experience that I desire also hopefully in the next 10 years because the last 10 years have been absolute trash.
If you have to grind quests to be competitive in PvP solution is quite simple - dont play that game because it sucks ;P
Or better yet, he should play the no story, no leveling FPS games. So many FPS players pretending to like MMOs... I don't get it.
Are you seriously implying that im an FPS gamer and don't deserve to play MMORPGS? I've been playing mmorpgs since 1998 man I mean wtf do i need to do to get approval like it matters from you the all mighty judge on the matter?
You're describing a race to the end playstyle for competitve PVP purposes and saying that you don't want to slow down because that puts you at a disadvantage and you call that horseshit... sounds like an FPS player to me.
You can play whatever the hell you want to play but of you're criticizing MMORPGs for being MMORPGs, well yeah the shoe fits.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Absolutely you're preaching to the choir, thats exactly what i stated in the first place. The quote above by me was cut off and not my entire post.
This site really has devolved to nothing more than bullies, constant repetitive rehtoric, and mods with agendas.
No one is bullying you, I certainly wasn't. unless that's what you consider someone disagreeing with your point. I cut out the rest as the only point I was making was you either: a: rush through like everyone, or b: enjoy the game in its full offering. Your gaming preference dictates this, not anyone else or any feature.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
What prevents you of reading the quest test, ignore helpers and find things by your own?
What forces you to use instant teleport? cant you go by foot?
Play the way you like it, if the mmo dont allow that, then is time to change and look for something that fits your play style.
Isnt that simple?
I hate this line of reasoning. I don't think its that simple. When others are gifted that knowledge and you yourself handicap yourself in order to bring up your immersion but then you are slowed down compared to everyone else and you fall behind on purpose whereas everyone is steaming along with those freebie xp boosts from give me quests. I think its horseshit. The playing field is either level or its not. Now, some people ask well so what who cares if people steam past you while you're enjoying your game more. Well, i'm not then because i play games that are extremely pvp competitive and people having an advantage over someone else like that is just not acceptable to me. Now if people enjoy playing those games with quest trackers and such that's fine I don't wnat to take that away from anyone....but I would just love a game that does offer me the experience that I desire also hopefully in the next 10 years because the last 10 years have been absolute trash.
If you have to grind quests to be competitive in PvP solution is quite simple - dont play that game because it sucks ;P
Or better yet, he should play the no story, no leveling FPS games. So many FPS players pretending to like MMOs... I don't get it.
Are you seriously implying that im an FPS gamer and don't deserve to play MMORPGS? I've been playing mmorpgs since 1998 man I mean wtf do i need to do to get approval like it matters from you the all mighty judge on the matter?
I think what he is implying is an MMORPG is meant to be a slow burn form of entertainment, whereas an FPS is better suited to those who want to keep up with Pack and score well on ladder boards.
I never even said it was a race to begin with. He just assumes that because I said you can fall behind and get ganked to hell and back while handicapping yourself to enjoy the game the way you want specifically. Since i was only quoted part of what I said originally I think people are assuming i want other peoples playstyles to change with mine and that is not what I want i just want the same standard in a game not yet to be released. I'll wait and just avoid the games that are not the standard I want. What is the problem with that?
What prevents you of reading the quest test, ignore helpers and find things by your own?
What forces you to use instant teleport? cant you go by foot?
Play the way you like it, if the mmo dont allow that, then is time to change and look for something that fits your play style.
Isnt that simple?
I hate this line of reasoning. I don't think its that simple. When others are gifted that knowledge and you yourself handicap yourself in order to bring up your immersion but then you are slowed down compared to everyone else and you fall behind on purpose whereas everyone is steaming along with those freebie xp boosts from give me quests. I think its horseshit. The playing field is either level or its not. Now, some people ask well so what who cares if people steam past you while you're enjoying your game more. Well, i'm not then because i play games that are extremely pvp competitive and people having an advantage over someone else like that is just not acceptable to me. Now if people enjoy playing those games with quest trackers and such that's fine I don't wnat to take that away from anyone....but I would just love a game that does offer me the experience that I desire also hopefully in the next 10 years because the last 10 years have been absolute trash.
If you have to grind quests to be competitive in PvP solution is quite simple - dont play that game because it sucks ;P
Or better yet, he should play the no story, no leveling FPS games. So many FPS players pretending to like MMOs... I don't get it.
Are you seriously implying that im an FPS gamer and don't deserve to play MMORPGS? I've been playing mmorpgs since 1998 man I mean wtf do i need to do to get approval like it matters from you the all mighty judge on the matter?
You're describing a race to the end playstyle for competitve PVP purposes and saying that you don't want to slow down because that puts you at a disadvantage and you call that horseshit... sounds like an FPS player to me.
You can play whatever the hell you want to play but of you're criticizing MMORPGs for being MMORPGs, well yeah the shoe fits.
What are you talking about? I never said it was a race. I just want a level playing field for everyone where I don't have to singly handicap myself. I was misquoted. I am not an FPS player.
To be honest is part of the problem with trackers the fact that they do very badly together with he simple idiot quests we had since Meridian 59 (kill 10 rats in the moat, take this message to my brother who are 10 feets west of me). With long and advanced quests they are far less annoying (but still not good).
Actually it is other way around. When you have complex, sophisticated and engaging quests then you don't need quest trackers at all - gameplay benefit most from not having it.
When you have "go kill 10 rats quest" then it does not benefit much from not having quest tracker.
The simpler the game is the more beneficial is to have quest tracker.
The more complex and engaging game is - the more beneficial is to NOT have quest trackers and helper.
What are your examples? That's the thing about these discussions, many write things that just leave one scratching their head. As I don't know what games you're comparing. One of the deepest "questing" games I've played in recent years, (skyrim) has a quest tracking system, as did Oblivion... The deepest/most interesting MMORPG IMO I've ever played has one (SWG.. even during Pre-cu)...
Both of these titles offered interesting mechanics as well as adventure.. Both point your way to go when you have an actual objective given to you. SWG does even when you don't... it will point you where ever you want to go on any planet arrow and all..only a few exceptions, like teh death watch bunker, and the Warren.
Many well done games NWN, etc.. don't even need one their worlds are so small too small to need it, and are more corridor like.. KOTOR as another example..
These are some of the more engaging games I've played, a game is a sum of all of it's parts after all, topics like this get far too hung up on small aspects. Most of the time missing the forest for the trees.
In a game that have big amount of simple tasks/quests (like all MMORPGs and significant % of SPRPGs), quest trackers and other helpers are most beneficial and valuable.
Standard "quest" in an MMORPG game does not offer much gameplay. Gameplay is making decisions and in an MMORPG quest you usually don't make any decisions.
"Go kill 10 wolves" or "go bring me 5 crystals from place X" does not give you any decisions to make. It is not diffrent than going and killing 10 wolves or getting 5 crystals from place X without having this "quest" from an NPC. Of course having a NPC tell you to kill them may get you to FEEL diffrently than just grinding them without NPC telling you to, but gameplay wise it is exactly the same thing. And mmorpg players are finally catching up on that.
Not having a quest tracker for such simple "quest-tasks" when you have hundreads of them in a game and gameplay is based on you running around making those endless tasks - basically gameplay is about you grinding monsters in regions showed to you by game.
So you are grinding monsters in certain locations. 5 mobs here, 10 mobs there and so on. Most of those encounters combat wise are also very simple combat wise, both in terms of complexity and difficulty.
So you are running around grinding easy mobs in places game has shown you.
Not having a quest tracker in this situation would actually give you more gameplay, because you would have to look for those places in which you can grind those mobs NPC told you to grind. Thing is this "look for a place" gameplay would become really tiresome really fast.
Notice that games that are more upfront about mobs grinding (many asian MMORPGs and western hack&slash games like Diablo) do NOT require you to go look for grinding spot every 10 mobs you kill.
Now I hope it is visible why in MMORPGs that are filled with hundreads of simple "quests" it is beneficial to have quest trackers&helpers.
Now if a game would have smaller amount of more complex quests. Quests that would have more gameplay (decision making) and would therefore be actual quests/adventures, then quest trackers&helpers would be counter-productive.
Of course many people would still want to have them as some people simply do prefer and enjoy to not having to have making any decisions and enjoy simply going through the motions. - That is why in older rpg's many people have played with detailed solutions on their lap/desks, simply going through the motions rather than figuring out stuff /making decisions by themself, but that is another separate issue.
What prevents you of reading the quest test, ignore helpers and find things by your own?
What forces you to use instant teleport? cant you go by foot?
Play the way you like it, if the mmo dont allow that, then is time to change and look for something that fits your play style.
Isnt that simple?
I hate this line of reasoning. I don't think its that simple. When others are gifted that knowledge and you yourself handicap yourself in order to bring up your immersion but then you are slowed down compared to everyone else and you fall behind on purpose whereas everyone is steaming along with those freebie xp boosts from give me quests. I think its horseshit. The playing field is either level or its not. Now, some people ask well so what who cares if people steam past you while you're enjoying your game more. Well, i'm not then because i play games that are extremely pvp competitive and people having an advantage over someone else like that is just not acceptable to me. Now if people enjoy playing those games with quest trackers and such that's fine I don't wnat to take that away from anyone....but I would just love a game that does offer me the experience that I desire also hopefully in the next 10 years because the last 10 years have been absolute trash.
If you have to grind quests to be competitive in PvP solution is quite simple - dont play that game because it sucks ;P
Or better yet, he should play the no story, no leveling FPS games. So many FPS players pretending to like MMOs... I don't get it.
Are you seriously implying that im an FPS gamer and don't deserve to play MMORPGS? I've been playing mmorpgs since 1998 man I mean wtf do i need to do to get approval like it matters from you the all mighty judge on the matter?
You're describing a race to the end playstyle for competitve PVP purposes and saying that you don't want to slow down because that puts you at a disadvantage and you call that horseshit... sounds like an FPS player to me.
You can play whatever the hell you want to play but of you're criticizing MMORPGs for being MMORPGs, well yeah the shoe fits.
What are you talking about? I never said it was a race. I just want a level playing field for everyone where I don't have to singly handicap myself. I was misquoted. I am not an FPS player.
Sorry, not racing, "steaming"
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
What prevents you of reading the quest test, ignore helpers and find things by your own?
What forces you to use instant teleport? cant you go by foot?
Play the way you like it, if the mmo dont allow that, then is time to change and look for something that fits your play style.
Isnt that simple?
I hate this line of reasoning. I don't think its that simple. When others are gifted that knowledge and you yourself handicap yourself in order to bring up your immersion but then you are slowed down compared to everyone else and you fall behind on purpose whereas everyone is steaming along with those freebie xp boosts from give me quests. I think its horseshit. The playing field is either level or its not. Now, some people ask well so what who cares if people steam past you while you're enjoying your game more. Well, i'm not then because i play games that are extremely pvp competitive and people having an advantage over someone else like that is just not acceptable to me. Now if people enjoy playing those games with quest trackers and such that's fine I don't wnat to take that away from anyone....but I would just love a game that does offer me the experience that I desire also hopefully in the next 10 years because the last 10 years have been absolute trash.
If you have to grind quests to be competitive in PvP solution is quite simple - dont play that game because it sucks ;P
Or better yet, he should play the no story, no leveling FPS games. So many FPS players pretending to like MMOs... I don't get it.
Are you seriously implying that im an FPS gamer and don't deserve to play MMORPGS? I've been playing mmorpgs since 1998 man I mean wtf do i need to do to get approval like it matters from you the all mighty judge on the matter?
You're describing a race to the end playstyle for competitve PVP purposes and saying that you don't want to slow down because that puts you at a disadvantage and you call that horseshit... sounds like an FPS player to me.
You can play whatever the hell you want to play but of you're criticizing MMORPGs for being MMORPGs, well yeah the shoe fits.
What are you talking about? I never said it was a race. I just want a level playing field for everyone where I don't have to singly handicap myself. I was misquoted. I am not an FPS player.
Sorry, not racing, "steaming"
How is saying OTHER people steam through content the same as saying "I" think that is how it should be played!??
If people wanted to forego using a website that had the information back then, what's stopping people from not using quest trackers/helpers in-games now? Exactly.
/thread
Except you can't forego using quest trackers as the quest text no longer leads you to where you need to go.
I know I've tried. It used to be in Lord of the Rings online where you could just find your way using quest text but they no longer add that information.
Same with Aion.
Same with SWToR.
If memory serves same with Final Fantasy 14.
And age of Conan now that I think of it. It's actually a lot of games now.
More and more games just tell you of the situation and you run to the glowy bit and then run back. That's a relay race, not a quest. At least to my thinking.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
If people wanted to forego using a website that had the information back then, what's stopping people from not using quest trackers/helpers in-games now? Exactly.
/thread
Except you can't forego using quest trackers as the quest text no longer leads you to where you need to go.
I know I've tried. It used to be in Lord of the Rings online where you could just find your way using quest text but they no longer add that information.
Same with Aion.
Same with SWToR.
If memory serves same with Final Fantasy 14.
And age of Conan now that I think of it. It's actually a lot of games now.
More and more games just tell you of the situation and you run to the glowy bit and then run back. That's a relay race, not a quest. At least to my thinking.
What prevents you of reading the quest test, ignore helpers and find things by your own?
What forces you to use instant teleport? cant you go by foot?
Play the way you like it, if the mmo dont allow that, then is time to change and look for something that fits your play style.
Isnt that simple?
I hate this line of reasoning. I don't think its that simple. When others are gifted that knowledge and you yourself handicap yourself in order to bring up your immersion but then you are slowed down compared to everyone else and you fall behind on purpose whereas everyone is steaming along with those freebie xp boosts from give me quests. I think its horseshit. The playing field is either level or its not. Now, some people ask well so what who cares if people steam past you while you're enjoying your game more. Well, i'm not then because i play games that are extremely pvp competitive and people having an advantage over someone else like that is just not acceptable to me. Now if people enjoy playing those games with quest trackers and such that's fine I don't wnat to take that away from anyone....but I would just love a game that does offer me the experience that I desire also hopefully in the next 10 years because the last 10 years have been absolute trash.
If you have to grind quests to be competitive in PvP solution is quite simple - dont play that game because it sucks ;P
Or better yet, he should play the no story, no leveling FPS games. So many FPS players pretending to like MMOs... I don't get it.
Are you seriously implying that im an FPS gamer and don't deserve to play MMORPGS? I've been playing mmorpgs since 1998 man I mean wtf do i need to do to get approval like it matters from you the all mighty judge on the matter?
You're describing a race to the end playstyle for competitve PVP purposes and saying that you don't want to slow down because that puts you at a disadvantage and you call that horseshit... sounds like an FPS player to me.
You can play whatever the hell you want to play but of you're criticizing MMORPGs for being MMORPGs, well yeah the shoe fits.
What are you talking about? I never said it was a race. I just want a level playing field for everyone where I don't have to singly handicap myself. I was misquoted. I am not an FPS player.
Sorry, not racing, "steaming"
How is saying OTHER people steam through content the same as saying "I" think that is how it should be played!??
Well, how do you maintain your competitive edge against them then? You're essentially saying you're a highly competitive PVPer first... so how do you play those games where playing the MMORPG the way it's designed to be played puts you at a disadvantage if PVP is what you care about and you want to be competitive?
You have played MMORPGs like that in the past haven't you? So how did you play them?
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I dunno, mixed bag for me. I play to progress, not to adventure, so these assist in my progression goals and I tend to favor them.
But I do understand, after a while you feel like all you are doing is following the yellow brick road, and it becomes more of a grind than anything else.
Wonder if there's a happy medium in between, more of an assistant rather than taking you by the hand completely.
No there is no happy medium in between. Less intuitive tool would hamper your progression (your gameplay) and having a tool at all vs not having it would be detrimental to gameplay of those who play for finding stuff or figuring stuff up reasons.
Same thing goes for other in-game tools. In example - LFG tool. Those tools evolved gradually into full cross-server auto-group&auto-teleport tools and have not stayed "in between" for a reason.
Them staying "in between" would be detrimental for people who play for progression or/and who want to have instanced gameplay available as fast as possible.
Staying "in between" is not really an option. All in between solutions are only temporary by their nature, as they are not satisfying to those who care about them and you WILL have players endless campaigning about furthering those tools to "full potential".
History of those helper tools in many mmorpg titles proves that.
You either don't provide basically any quest tracking and design your game around not having it or you provide full quest tracker like in basically all mainstream MMORPGs.
Comments
You're an unusual one.
You've named yourself after a very early videogame RPG. It involved progression, combat, and a little story. It was an RPG.
MMORPGs involve progression, combat, and a little story. They are RPGs.
Sometimes players come by and pretend MMORPGs aren't RPGs and I can imagine them simply being ignorant of the 35+ long years of RPGs' history. But not someone who takes Wizardry as their name. That's harder to chew, unless it's completely coincidental (named after the concept of wizardry, rather than the game Wizardry.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
What are your examples? That's the thing about these discussions, many write things that just leave one scratching their head. As I don't know what games you're comparing. One of the deepest "questing" games I've played in recent years, (skyrim) has a quest tracking system, as did Oblivion... The deepest/most interesting MMORPG IMO I've ever played has one (SWG.. even during Pre-cu)...
Both of these titles offered interesting mechanics as well as adventure.. Both point your way to go when you have an actual objective given to you. SWG does even when you don't... it will point you where ever you want to go on any planet arrow and all..only a few exceptions, like teh death watch bunker, and the Warren.
Many well done games NWN, etc.. don't even need one their worlds are so small too small to need it, and are more corridor like.. KOTOR as another example..
These are some of the more engaging games I've played, a game is a sum of all of it's parts after all, topics like this get far too hung up on small aspects. Most of the time missing the forest for the trees.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
And that is what shouldn't matter to a person worried about immersion and/or role-playing... As those rushing through are not...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I'm hoping it's after the concept and not the game because his RPG-related posts would have Werdna rolling in his grave.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
No, what matters to a person simply matters. It matters to me. It matters to me because you are in a multiplayer game and everyones actions affects you and if you are then completely out leveled by your ganking opposition because you chose to handicap yourself then I totally believe that it ruins your immersion also despite your attempts.
If you have to grind quests to be competitive in PvP solution is quite simple - dont play that game because it sucks ;P
Yea i suppose this doesn't really apply to me anyways because i usually steer clear of that themepark design regardless and would just not have that issue. But theres a first for everything I was thinking about checking out GW2 and TESO after years of avoiding those kinds of games for a decade. I should stop myself
Or better yet, he should play the no story, no leveling FPS games. So many FPS players pretending to like MMOs... I don't get it.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
The point of them being multi-player is to place yourself in the crowd you connect with. That isn't supposed to be and will never be everyone playing..IF you're worried about being first to be top dog, that's on you and how you approach the game, it has nothing to with anything but you.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Even before quest helpers and trackers were in-game, do you know what we had? Allakhazam.com/game.
They may be bloating the UI in some games, but they are by no means ruining mmorpgs. Anyone who says so are being idiotic and clearly never played the old mmorpgs like Everquest and FFXI because everything had a detailed walkthrough complete with coordinates/directions/pictures an alt tab away. The only thing that changed is we no longer have to alt tab half as much anymore.
If people wanted to forego using a website that had the information back then, what's stopping people from not using quest trackers/helpers in-games now? Exactly.
/thread
Are you seriously implying that im an FPS gamer and don't deserve to play MMORPGS? I've been playing mmorpgs since 1998 man I mean wtf do i need to do to get approval like it matters from you the all mighty judge on the matter?
Absolutely you're preaching to the choir, thats exactly what i stated in the first place. The quote above by me was cut off and not my entire post.
This site really has devolved to nothing more than bullies, constant repetitive rehtoric, and mods with agendas.
I think what he is implying is an MMORPG is meant to be a slow burn form of entertainment, whereas an FPS is better suited to those who want to keep up with Pack and score well on ladder boards.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You're describing a race to the end playstyle for competitve PVP purposes and saying that you don't want to slow down because that puts you at a disadvantage and you call that horseshit... sounds like an FPS player to me.
You can play whatever the hell you want to play but of you're criticizing MMORPGs for being MMORPGs, well yeah the shoe fits.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
No one is bullying you, I certainly wasn't. unless that's what you consider someone disagreeing with your point. I cut out the rest as the only point I was making was you either: a: rush through like everyone, or b: enjoy the game in its full offering. Your gaming preference dictates this, not anyone else or any feature.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I never even said it was a race to begin with. He just assumes that because I said you can fall behind and get ganked to hell and back while handicapping yourself to enjoy the game the way you want specifically. Since i was only quoted part of what I said originally I think people are assuming i want other peoples playstyles to change with mine and that is not what I want i just want the same standard in a game not yet to be released. I'll wait and just avoid the games that are not the standard I want. What is the problem with that?
What are you talking about? I never said it was a race. I just want a level playing field for everyone where I don't have to singly handicap myself. I was misquoted. I am not an FPS player.
In a game that have big amount of simple tasks/quests (like all MMORPGs and significant % of SPRPGs), quest trackers and other helpers are most beneficial and valuable.
Standard "quest" in an MMORPG game does not offer much gameplay. Gameplay is making decisions and in an MMORPG quest you usually don't make any decisions.
"Go kill 10 wolves" or "go bring me 5 crystals from place X" does not give you any decisions to make. It is not diffrent than going and killing 10 wolves or getting 5 crystals from place X without having this "quest" from an NPC. Of course having a NPC tell you to kill them may get you to FEEL diffrently than just grinding them without NPC telling you to, but gameplay wise it is exactly the same thing. And mmorpg players are finally catching up on that.
Not having a quest tracker for such simple "quest-tasks" when you have hundreads of them in a game and gameplay is based on you running around making those endless tasks - basically gameplay is about you grinding monsters in regions showed to you by game.
So you are grinding monsters in certain locations. 5 mobs here, 10 mobs there and so on. Most of those encounters combat wise are also very simple combat wise, both in terms of complexity and difficulty.
So you are running around grinding easy mobs in places game has shown you.
Not having a quest tracker in this situation would actually give you more gameplay, because you would have to look for those places in which you can grind those mobs NPC told you to grind. Thing is this "look for a place" gameplay would become really tiresome really fast.
Notice that games that are more upfront about mobs grinding (many asian MMORPGs and western hack&slash games like Diablo) do NOT require you to go look for grinding spot every 10 mobs you kill.
Now I hope it is visible why in MMORPGs that are filled with hundreads of simple "quests" it is beneficial to have quest trackers&helpers.
Now if a game would have smaller amount of more complex quests. Quests that would have more gameplay (decision making) and would therefore be actual quests/adventures, then quest trackers&helpers would be counter-productive.
Of course many people would still want to have them as some people simply do prefer and enjoy to not having to have making any decisions and enjoy simply going through the motions. - That is why in older rpg's many people have played with detailed solutions on their lap/desks, simply going through the motions rather than figuring out stuff /making decisions by themself, but that is another separate issue.
Sorry, not racing, "steaming"
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
How is saying OTHER people steam through content the same as saying "I" think that is how it should be played!??
Except you can't forego using quest trackers as the quest text no longer leads you to where you need to go.
I know I've tried. It used to be in Lord of the Rings online where you could just find your way using quest text but they no longer add that information.
Same with Aion.
Same with SWToR.
If memory serves same with Final Fantasy 14.
And age of Conan now that I think of it. It's actually a lot of games now.
More and more games just tell you of the situation and you run to the glowy bit and then run back. That's a relay race, not a quest. At least to my thinking.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Agreed
Well, how do you maintain your competitive edge against them then? You're essentially saying you're a highly competitive PVPer first... so how do you play those games where playing the MMORPG the way it's designed to be played puts you at a disadvantage if PVP is what you care about and you want to be competitive?
You have played MMORPGs like that in the past haven't you? So how did you play them?
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
No there is no happy medium in between. Less intuitive tool would hamper your progression (your gameplay) and having a tool at all vs not having it would be detrimental to gameplay of those who play for finding stuff or figuring stuff up reasons.
Same thing goes for other in-game tools. In example - LFG tool. Those tools evolved gradually into full cross-server auto-group&auto-teleport tools and have not stayed "in between" for a reason.
Them staying "in between" would be detrimental for people who play for progression or/and who want to have instanced gameplay available as fast as possible.
Staying "in between" is not really an option. All in between solutions are only temporary by their nature, as they are not satisfying to those who care about them and you WILL have players endless campaigning about furthering those tools to "full potential".
History of those helper tools in many mmorpg titles proves that.
You either don't provide basically any quest tracking and design your game around not having it or you provide full quest tracker like in basically all mainstream MMORPGs.