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What ever happend to camping for xp?
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He's also giving these newer games way more credit than they deserve. Couple hours for an instance in today's MMORPG games? Lol... No. More like 20-30 minutes, max, in most cases.
And if it takes longer than that, the players start dropping group cause they don't want to spend that much time in those dungeons. WoW, Guild Wars 2, and many others are clear examples where this happens.
That's why they're called Fast Food or Buffet Games. They're designed with content that you pick up and go, which has low shelf life and limited replay value. WoW can get away with this because they have most of the players (which is probably a bigger selling point than anything any other game can tout - at least you know you'll be good regardless of your playtimes in WoW), but most other games can't because they generate hype, gain a lot of players, the players get quickly bored and then move.
F2P/B2P helps because it makes it more of a "no-brainer" for many people to at least keep the game installed and peek in here and there, and they can nickel and dime customers with content additions and vanity items, etc.
In most cases, F2P/B2P games end up costing more than a subscription for a lot of people.
So if a quest in EQ said to go grind 1,000,000 MOBs then it's not grinding because the quest told you to do it and it's immersive and part of the story?
You do realize that the quests are nothing more than a way to disguise the same mechanics, right? The majority of them send you to kill MOBs or to places for objectives that make killing MOBs to get there the only option.
It's the same stuff, just in a different skin.
And the result is that you run around doing almost everything solo, instead of working with other people.
So yea, for those of us without blinders over our eyes, we prefer the more social option. That's the whole point of this genre, otherwise it's a hell of a lot cheaper to get a Console (vs. a Gaming PC) and play single player RPGs.
...
Which is actually starting to look like the best option these days.
.......
Also, WoW content has extremely low replay value. People do old content for achievements not because it's fun to do the content, but because they're completionists and they want more shiny objects to show off. Other than the mounts, achievements, etc. there is literally no reason to even look at the Lich King. That content was pretty much obsolete the minute Cataclysm launched and insta-nerfed all the gear to uselessness the minute you got to 85, for the most part. Welcome to WoW, that's how these things work.
Content Shelf Life is kept low, to force people to buy expansions and push them in the direction that the game developers need them to go to sell more expansions or DLC.
This is completely different than EQ, where even in OoW or Gates of Discord people were still going to as far back as Luclin and PoP Zones to XP (Grieg's End, Ssra Temple, etc.), and they were still farming Elemental Planes and Plane of Time and working their way up through the content in raid progression because SOE didn't force a reset and fast track everyone to the latest expansion content while almost instantly nerfing the older content into obselescence.
This is why games like EQ felt so big compared to newer games. WoW actually IS a huge in game world. Vanila, BC, Wrath, Cataclysm, MoP zones... There's is a ton of area there. But the average level 100 player barely touches any of that. They live in their Garrison and a few other zones, and fast travel to raids and instances when needed (all predominantly in the latest expansion).
Blizzard would do well to make a lot of lower level instances have a "Challenge" version for max level players. It would give a ton more content to do, especially if the MOBs were very difficult and the rewards were on par with LFR gear.
I believe I miss watching others in the game or encountering others. In older games there were always time others were in need of help. You could choose to help them or not help them and they could choose to help you or not help. Even if there was nothing in the game but a world, mobs, some dungeons, and some crafting having all the people interacting made it feel like a real world. You don't get that with quest based games because you are following a direct path. One that is likely instanced off from everyone else. Being able to go into a dungeon and see a lot of crazy things going on and knowing it's not a scripted event is a magical experience. It's the players making things happen instead of the developers. This makes things feel far less static and far more alive IMO. People forming their own trade centers and bazaars as opposed to having an auction house is amazing. Watching people running around all over a zone and seeing some dying, some chatting, some trading, and some hindering others makes the world again feel alive. Watching one of the many people fall off the boat due to a bug or the possibility that you might caused a sense of enjoyment again that you can't get from something that is scripted out.
At any rate since this is probably boring you I think the world is what you make it. I don't think you can make things happen as a community that are outside of what the developers what you to do. A lot of this is due to making the games every linear and reducing the world to very small segregated parts. When everyone is in the same world together magical things can happen that make the world feel more alive then any developer scripting can do. I can see how grinding is boring, but it's not boring if you have a lot of other people running around doing things in game and trying things you would never have thought possible.
In summary it's not so much about being forced to group or interact. There were many mechanics in place that encouraged interacting, but I don't think it was often forced upon the player. It's that encouragement and having everyone together in one place that is important I believe. It's like a fantasy playground where kids can go and do what they want to do together.
Leveling out in a field and feeling like it was a risk in and of itself because dragons like Wuoshi, Gorenaire, and Severilous wandered throughout the zone and could easily kill you was also quite an experience.
That type of play experience, is impossible in the newer breed of MMORPG.
I don't think forced grouping is enough to bring back the type of experience you got in those games. It had as much to do with the player base as with the content.
As much as people complain at developers for not giving them what they want, those people are not oblivious and they clearly see what type of player dominates the market these days.
MMORPGs are moving in the direction of CoOp games and FPS, except with a bit more RPG flavor. The focus is heavily on PvP and not RPG and the content is designed as largely an afterthought because the developers expect the players to spend most of there time in very few zones and PvP sand boxes/instances after a very quick level-up experience.
And frankly, those games are cheaper to develop and manage as the developers can literally tune everything for max level and the expense of everything else below that and call it a day. It's where the "Get to and then talk..." type catch phrases came from.
Also, EQ didn't force groups. Yes, a lot of content was balanced for group play, but being a solar didn't mean you couldn't level at a decent clip, and those classes that were worse at soloing (Clerics and Warriors) were the ones that were most necessary in groups, so things kind of balanced themselves out.
Overtime they raised the level cap in EQ, the first people to hit it were primarily soloers, not people who were XPing in groups.
To be fair, this still happens.
I literally had it happen this morning in FFXIV.
This random player and I happened to turn a corner to be faced by level 20 mobs. He was ~15 I was ~13.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
GW2 tried to counter this social "phenomenon" by giving full credit to anyone who attacked a MOB. The only issue is that that game has very, very limited PvE content worth playing over the long haul - but that actual idea makes a ton of sense (even though it encourages zerging stuff down and poaching off others' kills with very little work (just tag it :-P )).
My 1st mmo was EQOA. That game had such a faithful following albeit small i'm sure or it might still be around but what a great game. Even at low levels xp camps were plenty. Yeah there was the quest to go here and do that stuff, but the REAL joy of the game was meeting players and becoming friends with most and having so many peeps on your friend list.
I can net stress enough how much more i enjoyed the challenge of the content and fear of death that wanting and needing to have friends to group with was the norm. And it was great, I recently just started the free trial of ff realm reborn and I'm now lvl 15 and have yet to need anyone to group with its like a single player game, I'm sure later on If i continue with it I will need peeps but its just not the same as the earlier games, those felt more alive.
I really wouldn't classify lying on the ground FD camping Raster a "fond" memory
I agree though for the most part. MMOs are all about the "end game" now, which means, instant gratification (as you mentioned) and quick leveling. It isn't about the experience anymore. Socialization is something you do in guild chat...if you're lucky.
My fondest memories of ANY mmo are the ones where I got into a good guild or found people in-game that I didn't instantly want to /ignore
Shout out to:
Mountain Giant Alliance > Shadowbane
New Dawn Rising/Blood of the Phoenix > Everquest
Savvy Gents > Warhammer Online
Raquelis in various games
Played: Everything
Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6
Wants: The World
Anticipating: Everquest Next Crowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
That is the general idea, but it doesn't really happen often in todays MMOs. You don't have dungeons with people running for their lives training everyone setting near the zone line. You don't really encounter people who need help in solo content and even if they do they probably will be more likely to react with something like you pointed out because there is nothing to loose from dying. Having a limited amount of quests and no instance encourages going out, exploring, and finding things to do. Basically thinking for yourself. Not being told what to do.
And in most modern games, it's encouraged. Or at least not discouraged by the inanely stupid mob locks from pre-2010...
Once, the "conjecture" was that the Earth was Flat. Did this "prove" the fact? Until an MMO gets made today, with this specific "old way" mechanic, it's just "conjecture", not proof. Proof is when it gets made and falls flat. Or makes a profit
I can figure a lot of things out. This specific instance? Sorry, not seeing what you see.
I could be wrong. Would not be the first time, nor the last. I believe there is a market for this kind of gameplay mechanic. It may not be as massive a market as the newer, more efficient market games, but I bet it could be profitable.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Good example about the Earth is flat.. It made me chuckle.. I was just going to say in addition that more conjecture would be the whole ugly mess logic of witches back in the day.. And that seems to be the logic our friend is using.. If the game is not made, it must not be profitable therefore it must be BAD.... Lets burn (insert old school game) at the stake.. LOL
Here is another thread of misconceptions and misinformation.
A lot of people spouting off about how you can grind in any game and that's not really what the OP is talking about. He's saying what happened to group content. I'm not talking about queuing up to an instance with 1 big pull and no challenge. Instance dungeons disconnect players from the world and provide an enviorment where 5 players play a solo game together.
What you need is a game that is designed from the group up to be designed around group content. Challenging mobs both in open world and in dungeons that make solo'ing extremely challenging for same level and above content. These games were the foundation of what the MMO genre was built and what the genre will eventually return to.
Games like Skyforge make me absolutely wanna vomit. I watch these games that have no soul and are all about the sales pitch. Thank god pantheon is actually being made.
Whatever happened to camping for xp?
It died a natural death and any attempt to revive it could very well start the zombie apocalypse.
I really hope that *insert game name here* will be the first game to ever live up to all of its pre-release promises, maintain a manageable hype level and have a clean release. Just don't expect me to hold my breath.
I remember camping the Tree spawns in Lyonesse in DAoC as well.
I also remember the waiting lists to get a spot in the group. So you could kill the same mobs over and over for hours on end. It did encourage socialization, but only because there was shit else to do for the 8 hours you spent standing in one spot killing those damn trees.
Holy Christ I am glad games have moved past that. The only reason those were the " good old days" is because no one knew anything different. I do have some fond memories of camping spawns and chatting with my guildies. But never in a million years would I want a return to that.
But I do understand that some people might. Hopefully Pantheon ROTF will give you the gameplay you long for.
Now that I think of it, no. It is alive and well. Or was, when I left AA at the beginning of the year.
Game: Archeage
Location: Hasla
I really hope that *insert game name here* will be the first game to ever live up to all of its pre-release promises, maintain a manageable hype level and have a clean release. Just don't expect me to hold my breath.
Anyone who's studied game design or even just ran informal polls about players' playing preferences understands that soloing is more popular than grouping. It's what players choose.
So don't word your post in a way that implies you're fighting misconceptions, if you're spreading them by saying MMORPGs need to be group-centric. They don't.
If you want to fight against misconceptions and misinformation, the best way to do that is to learn more about the games you're discussing so you don't make posts like these anymore.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The point being, when I fish in real life, I go to the place they are known to be, be it a lake (no migration here) or a river. Once I find a spot they are biting at (or not, depending on how I feel), I stay there. I do not move my "camp" to another lake or river.
Is this some form or MMO "Department of Natural Resources" enforcement? lol
Of course, this is quite different from camping mobs at one spot where no real life instances equate to this activity, but the idea is still there
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I agree with you that MMORPGs do not have to be group centric. This is very different from you saying NO MMORPG should be because it is not "popular." That is bullcrap and I think you know it.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Actually I was thinking about fish in any any lake or stream. Fish are often in one area in a lake, then when fished out or temperature changes or whatever will move to another area of the lake.
Oh. Yes all salmon spawn in streams, travel to the ocean, then back to the streams.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver