I think its probably the worst period to be an old, stuck in your ways gamer yes. And yes I include myself in that camp. However as the industry itself goes, there are more games to choose from with many playable for not one cent needed than at any time before. So unless only a certain type of MMO entertains you this is an epic era to be a gamer.
Another person confusing quantity with quality.
If the games of the past were such better quality how do you explain their demise?
Right? Seems like someone is confusing his idea of quality is everyone's idea of quality.
I liked the games of past. I played EQ for almost 10 years. I enjoyed my time in them but I'm not ignorant enough to proclaim they were greater and had better quality than any games today. They were just different. Some people just can't let go of their prejudice. The arrogance and bias that comes from some of these people is dumbfounded to be honest.
I thought the time period being referred to was the upcoming one, like 2015, 2016. There just doesn't seem to be many MMOs being released, let alone AAA ones. Anything that might be of interest on the horizon is still a couple years away.
This is the impression i got from the OP also, but leave it to the regular MMORPG trolls to not comprehend this.
If the genre was so hot right now, there would be several AAA titles releasing this year. The genre has went from multiple AAA titles releasing within a couple years, to indie kickstarter projects that look and play terrible.
Notice how there isn't upcoming "WoW killers" anymore. That used to be a sign of a thriving and competitive market. Now we have MMO projects begging for money.
I think its probably the worst period to be an old, stuck in your ways gamer yes. And yes I include myself in that camp. However as the industry itself goes, there are more games to choose from with many playable for not one cent needed than at any time before. So unless only a certain type of MMO entertains you this is an epic era to be a gamer.
Another person confusing quantity with quality.
If the games of the past were such better quality how do you explain their demise?
Demise? No, they are still active. That is one of the marks of their quality, they have survived the test of time.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. Benjamin Franklin
The genre has went from multiple AAA titles releasing within a couple years, to indie kickstarter projects that look and play terrible.
The indies are my hope for the future. They are trying to build games for gamers, not dethrone WoW by catering to the lowest common denominator.
Eventually a few of the indies will get things right, and we'll have new games that grow over time instead of doing a crash & burn after 3 months. Ten years from now, they will be the industry leaders todays kids compare new games to.
Of course, ten years from now I expect all new MMO's to be either AR or VR. Today's games will shrivel and die like the Atari when the first serious AR/VR titles hit the mainstream.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. Benjamin Franklin
This! I am playing one, have played several recently, and compared to when we had a small handful of games to choose from, we have a ton of variety to pick from. Just because you don't like any yourself, doesn't mean there aren't a lot who do like what we have.
I think its probably the worst period to be an old, stuck in your ways gamer yes. And yes I include myself in that camp. However as the industry itself goes, there are more games to choose from with many playable for not one cent needed than at any time before. So unless only a certain type of MMO entertains you this is an epic era to be a gamer.
Another person confusing quantity with quality.
If the games of the past were such better quality how do you explain their demise?
Demise? No, they are still active. That is one of the marks of their quality, they have survived the test of time.
Yet which of those games is anything like they were over a decade ago? Weren't most of them "dumbed down" or changed to appease the "wowers" or the "carebears" or those who "didn't like to read", etc? The industry shifted and they shifted right along with it did they not?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The genre has went from multiple AAA titles releasing within a couple years, to indie kickstarter projects that look and play terrible.
The indies are my hope for the future. They are trying to build games for gamers, not dethrone WoW by catering to the lowest common denominator.
Eventually a few of the indies will get things right, and we'll have new games that grow over time instead of doing a crash & burn after 3 months. Ten years from now, they will be the industry leaders todays kids compare new games to.
Of course, ten years from now I expect all new MMO's to be either AR or VR. Today's games will shrivel and die like the Atari when the first serious AR/VR titles hit the mainstream.
It's premature to predict if these indie titles will stand the test of time. For all we know, these upcoming titles will crash and burn too.
More players playing than ever? Check. Function of time, and doesn't positively impact me in anyway, so, irrelevent.
More games available than ever? Check. When all the games are bad, this makes no difference. Next.
More variety in setting and style? Check. Incorrect. Before 2004, I had about 10 radically different AAA MMOs to pick from, each filling its own niche. Now, if I want to play a AAA MMO, I have to play a WoW clone or just not play.
More options in payment model? Check. And many of these payment models are leading to games designed to annoy you into paying more. So.
More platforms to choose to play MMOs on? Check. Doesn't impact me at all.
Yup, sounds terrible.
Nice try.
Just because you aren't happy doesn't mean the MMO genre as a whole is not in a good place.
Nice try!
It's like saying, "oh man, they opened up 13 new restaurants, 10 chains and 3 unique, local "ma and pa" places - but they closed the one old diner I loved to go to. The entire restaurant industry in this town is awful and worthless!"
Does that make sense? Nope.
Except that analogy is broken. It'd be more of "Oh, they closed all the restaurants I liked, and opened 13 McDonalds in their place.
The points you brought up to defend why we're in a good place as a whole were shot down, and you don't seem to have any other AMMO.
Hell, it's not just a bad place for gamers, it's bad for publishers and devs too given how many studios have collapsed as their WoW clones go FTP and fail.
I think its probably the worst period to be an old, stuck in your ways gamer yes. And yes I include myself in that camp. However as the industry itself goes, there are more games to choose from with many playable for not one cent needed than at any time before. So unless only a certain type of MMO entertains you this is an epic era to be a gamer.
Another person confusing quantity with quality.
If the games of the past were such better quality how do you explain their demise?
Each one has a different reason.
Some, like Asheron's Call, had their devs move on to bigger projects and largely abandon them. That game is from 98 and just simply does not have enough updated to keep a lot of people playing.
Others, like EQ, are still going strong, but have been bleeding players as SOE changed the core game to appeal to their non core demographic.
Others, like DAoC and SWG were similar to EQ, in which their game was fundamentally changed to be more appealing to WoW players, which drove off the core playerbase. Instead of going back in to fix their mistakes, the devs moved on to new games, ground up WoW clones, and had them fail miserably and put them out of business.
I think its probably the worst period to be an old, stuck in your ways gamer yes. And yes I include myself in that camp. However as the industry itself goes, there are more games to choose from with many playable for not one cent needed than at any time before. So unless only a certain type of MMO entertains you this is an epic era to be a gamer.
Another person confusing quantity with quality.
If the games of the past were such better quality how do you explain their demise?
Demise? No, they are still active. That is one of the marks of their quality, they have survived the test of time.
Yet which of those games is anything like they were over a decade ago? Weren't most of them "dumbed down" or changed to appease the "wowers" or the "carebears" or those who "didn't like to read", etc? The industry shifted and they shifted right along with it did they not?
They had to adapt or die. Even though they still adapted to more casual style, they are still struggling due to old age.
Most people seem to think a genre is healthy because of all the quantity of titles out there, but a true measure is how much money is generated, along with sustained population numbers. When you have kickstarter indie companies, as the bastion of saving a genre, it does not bode well for the genre.
I think its probably the worst period to be an old, stuck in your ways gamer yes. And yes I include myself in that camp. However as the industry itself goes, there are more games to choose from with many playable for not one cent needed than at any time before. So unless only a certain type of MMO entertains you this is an epic era to be a gamer.
Another person confusing quantity with quality.
If the games of the past were such better quality how do you explain their demise?
Demise? No, they are still active. That is one of the marks of their quality, they have survived the test of time.
Yet which of those games is anything like they were over a decade ago? Weren't most of them "dumbed down" or changed to appease the "wowers" or the "carebears" or those who "didn't like to read", etc? The industry shifted and they shifted right along with it did they not?
They had to adapt or die. Even though they still adapted to more casual style, they are still struggling due to old age.
Most people seem to think a genre is healthy because of all the quantity of titles out there, but a true measure is how much money is generated, along with sustained population numbers. When you have kickstarter indie companies, as the bastion of saving a genre, it does not bode well for the genre.
A few people on an MMO site claimning that the genre is dead and the only that can save the genre is an Indie game doesn't make it true. There are billions of dollars generated in this genre. Heck look at how lustrious the RMT market is. They make billions from these MMORPGs. How the hell is the genre dead. Noone is claiming an Indie will save the genre except for a very select few unhappy and vocal folks. Again, billions of dollars every year, how is that dead?
The worst period to be an mmo gamer is the time between the end of your first mmo and the start of your second. That period when you're trying everything half assed. Trying to recreate a retired game in futility. That describes most of the people on this forum.
It's premature to predict if these indie titles will stand the test of time. For all we know, these upcoming titles will crash and burn too.
I have no illusions, most will fail.
The ones that succeed may not have even been conceived yet. It will happen though, and it will happen with the indies. The established companies are too risk averse to create anything original.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. Benjamin Franklin
It's premature to predict if these indie titles will stand the test of time. For all we know, these upcoming titles will crash and burn too.
I have no illusions, most will.
The ones that succeed may not have even been conceived yet. It will happen though, and it will happen with the indies. The established companies are too risk averse to create anything original.
Funny saying you have no illusions then bring up an illusion. Too funny.
Conclusion of the story: everything that is "old" isn't automagically "good", and everything that is "new" isn't automagically "bad" either. But of course, it requires and open mind to admit that, and not people with their head so badly up their 10+ years ago hole that they are unwilling to accept new things.
Don't get me wrong. I'm perfectly willing to accept new things. I had great hope that Rift would be a spiritual successor to Vanguard, and the game was fun at launch. These days, Rift is all about the lottery.
Don't even go there with build variety. The soul system utterly failed at its stated purpose of promoting variety. If you're not playing the current FotM build, it's an auto-kick from the group.
What I'm not willing to accept is dumbed down gameplay, P2W, or solo games that push you max level in less than a month only to rely on world PvP for end game.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. Benjamin Franklin
Yes it is and worse by the year, but it's already been an empty husk for so many years that it's not news.
Big-business-money moved in to serve derivative slop to the tasteless masses, just like fast food and pop music.
Now it's just an endless strip-mall with more cash shops and gambling boxes than creativity and virtual-worlds.
But this still hooks enough minions that feed them money and blind adulation just like people do to McD's or Justin Bieber, so that's just the way things are now, whether we all like it or not.
So if you enjoy some of what's available today, make sure you play it while you can, because it's going nowhere but further down.
We are talking about voluntary leisure activities. Not just a couple of them, but hundreds to choose from. Instead of just playing with a different type of toy in your near endless toychest, you'd rather collectively complain about how none of the hundred versions of one particular toy are perfectly designed for just you.
Yes, dude... perspective.
If the bulk of toys in that "endless toychest" consist of cheap plastic Made in China Dollar Store kyfe, don't be all shocked and awed if the kiddies be a cryin'.
But the kiddies aren't all crying, just a select group of them is.
This group prefers to play with brown rubber ducks. Most other kids (the overwhelming majority) like yellow rubber ducks, so ofcourse the yellow ducks get made, simply because they sell best.
This prompts the brown rubber duck loving kids to constantly yell "You suck! Your ducks are crap! You are stupidz!" at all the neighbors' kids who enjoy using the yellow ones.
Its more like 1 group of kids who like rubber ducks, and 1 group that likes new fancy paper mache ducks. The paper mache ducks are easier to make, and became super trendy, but don't last more than a few weeks. The old rubber duck kids can't help laughing at the dopes with their fake paper mache ducks and say, "Man it sure will be nice when this trend is over with and we can get ducks again that are actually made to last."
What is this made to last BS. Me and my friends have been playing FFXIV ARR since closed beta. How is that not lasting. It's also not the only game we're playing because we have so many choices. Games back in the day weren't made to last any more than today. There were just too few to choose from back in the day and people didn't have a choice but to stick with the same games. With so many games these days why would someone limit themselves. That's plain ignorant if you ask me.
FFXIV:ARR is a great game for those who enjoy being hamsters in the gear grind wheel.
"What are we doing today Brain? The same as we did yesterday Pinky! Trying to get new shiny gear!"
Oh the arrogance and ignorance, never ceases to amaze me.
Arrogance and Ignorance of telling the truth? Ever watch one of Yoshida's "Letter From the Producer" video presentations? What's ALWAYS the highlight of each video?
The dungeons and the new gear to grind. Say I'm lying.
ARR is "Fresh New Updated - Smaller World Strawberry Flavored WoW!"
Its nothing more than your typical Fight Club style "Single Serving Mmo solo oriented till endgame trash" that the kids love these days
More ignorance, please don't pretend to know something as truth when you clearly don't.
A solid rebuttal with facts would make a much better case instead of just flinging around the word ignorance. I played the game since Beta and recently stopped again because of the lack of depth in the world. Offering things like "Gold Saucer" which is nothing but a casino house offers nothing as far as depth. Sorry but FFXIV:ARR in depth is like comparing FFXIII to FFVI, no comparison, and even less comparison when you compare it to the first FFT. So spare me with the "you're" ignorant shaming tactics. I've been playing this series since the NES and Nintendo Power, so I know what I'm talking about, the world design of FFXI makes FFXIV look like one of those paper mache ducks Dullahan was talking about..
So as I've said, its nothing but updated WoW, a good updated WoW but even less world depth - Hell Vanilla WoW's oceans and sea monsters for example.
Now, please refute my points with facts and valid points to counter what I'm saying. Thanks
I havent touched a battle class in 2 months. Refute that. You clearly have no idea and you ARE ignorant to the fact that just because you don't consider it content and something else to do besides your one track minded end game or die conclusion does't make it true. And what does your experience with the series have to do with any of this. It doesn't make you any less ignorant than you currently are. I'm sure opening your eyes to your clear bias is hard but learn to accept the fact that everyone plays these games differently and enjoys it differently and FFXIV ARR is not just a one trick pony like you say it is. And that's the TRUTH.
You choose to play that way it's fine but don't be throwing out nonsense that that's all their is about the game when you ignore the other large percentage of other things the game has to offer.
I think its probably the worst period to be an old, stuck in your ways gamer yes. And yes I include myself in that camp. However as the industry itself goes, there are more games to choose from with many playable for not one cent needed than at any time before. So unless only a certain type of MMO entertains you this is an epic era to be a gamer.
Another person confusing quantity with quality.
If the games of the past were such better quality how do you explain their demise?
Demise? No, they are still active. That is one of the marks of their quality, they have survived the test of time.
Yet which of those games is anything like they were over a decade ago? Weren't most of them "dumbed down" or changed to appease the "wowers" or the "carebears" or those who "didn't like to read", etc? The industry shifted and they shifted right along with it did they not?
They had to adapt or die.
Actually, at this point its pretty clear that adapting is what killed them. It drove off their core fans and the casuals never flocked. Devs got greedy and the genre paied for it.
Originally posted by Bladestrom FF14, ESO,GW2.EVE,TSW,WILDSTAR. All great games (ok wildstar had got work to do) hardly a husk. Boomerang hit the nail on the head.
WS, ESO, and FF14 are all virtually the same exact game, and had massive issues.
I'm personally waiting for Moonlight Blade, a Chinese title.
Age of Wulin / Wushu was probably my biggest revelation of the past years and I feel like the Chinese brough some real different takes the on genre with that game.
That said, it's not even sure if the game will ever be translated.
Overall, I don't expect too much from any new game atm. I'm alright with playing Planetside 2 casually and returning to a few games like SW:TOR and GW2 now and then.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Only AAA MMO I can think of that isn't a WoW clone is GW2, and that's still a themepark..
I never played a sandbox, so no idea how the world and players behave in it, and how different for the good or bad is, but looking straight at playerbase numbers and titles I can end up with this conclusion...
If sandbox games are so good, so awesome, then why not a single sandbox (maybe excluding EVE) have this day a strong subscription model and base following.
What only see is people saying ... I miss SWG, I miss this, I miss that. But for the look of numbers, the market (players) didn't gave a damn at the time. The result they are all gone.
I think thats quite obvious because all of the AAA sandboxes are 15+ years old. The player base back then was tiny. I mean when Ultima Online was like THE mmorpg there was like 250k people playing. That was the playerbase period until EQ and WOW brought in other numbers. Since 2004 there has not been a single AAA sandbox made so thats why there aren't mass populations playing 15 plus year old sandbox games still in the millions. Be real.
Also even though Archeage is a steaming pile of dog feces it still has a few numbers but that game is supposed to be some hybrid between the two anyways and in my opinion shouldn't even belong in the same sentence as sandbox regardless.
Comments
Right? Seems like someone is confusing his idea of quality is everyone's idea of quality.
I liked the games of past. I played EQ for almost 10 years. I enjoyed my time in them but I'm not ignorant enough to proclaim they were greater and had better quality than any games today. They were just different. Some people just can't let go of their prejudice. The arrogance and bias that comes from some of these people is dumbfounded to be honest.
This is the impression i got from the OP also, but leave it to the regular MMORPG trolls to not comprehend this.
If the genre was so hot right now, there would be several AAA titles releasing this year. The genre has went from multiple AAA titles releasing within a couple years, to indie kickstarter projects that look and play terrible.
Notice how there isn't upcoming "WoW killers" anymore. That used to be a sign of a thriving and competitive market. Now we have MMO projects begging for money.
Demise? No, they are still active. That is one of the marks of their quality, they have survived the test of time.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
The indies are my hope for the future. They are trying to build games for gamers, not dethrone WoW by catering to the lowest common denominator.
Eventually a few of the indies will get things right, and we'll have new games that grow over time instead of doing a crash & burn after 3 months. Ten years from now, they will be the industry leaders todays kids compare new games to.
Of course, ten years from now I expect all new MMO's to be either AR or VR. Today's games will shrivel and die like the Atari when the first serious AR/VR titles hit the mainstream.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
This! I am playing one, have played several recently, and compared to when we had a small handful of games to choose from, we have a ton of variety to pick from. Just because you don't like any yourself, doesn't mean there aren't a lot who do like what we have.
Yet which of those games is anything like they were over a decade ago? Weren't most of them "dumbed down" or changed to appease the "wowers" or the "carebears" or those who "didn't like to read", etc? The industry shifted and they shifted right along with it did they not?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
It's premature to predict if these indie titles will stand the test of time. For all we know, these upcoming titles will crash and burn too.
Except that analogy is broken. It'd be more of "Oh, they closed all the restaurants I liked, and opened 13 McDonalds in their place.
The points you brought up to defend why we're in a good place as a whole were shot down, and you don't seem to have any other AMMO.
Hell, it's not just a bad place for gamers, it's bad for publishers and devs too given how many studios have collapsed as their WoW clones go FTP and fail.
Each one has a different reason.
Some, like Asheron's Call, had their devs move on to bigger projects and largely abandon them. That game is from 98 and just simply does not have enough updated to keep a lot of people playing.
Others, like EQ, are still going strong, but have been bleeding players as SOE changed the core game to appeal to their non core demographic.
Others, like DAoC and SWG were similar to EQ, in which their game was fundamentally changed to be more appealing to WoW players, which drove off the core playerbase. Instead of going back in to fix their mistakes, the devs moved on to new games, ground up WoW clones, and had them fail miserably and put them out of business.
Got a better excuse?
They had to adapt or die. Even though they still adapted to more casual style, they are still struggling due to old age.
Most people seem to think a genre is healthy because of all the quantity of titles out there, but a true measure is how much money is generated, along with sustained population numbers. When you have kickstarter indie companies, as the bastion of saving a genre, it does not bode well for the genre.
A few people on an MMO site claimning that the genre is dead and the only that can save the genre is an Indie game doesn't make it true. There are billions of dollars generated in this genre. Heck look at how lustrious the RMT market is. They make billions from these MMORPGs. How the hell is the genre dead. Noone is claiming an Indie will save the genre except for a very select few unhappy and vocal folks. Again, billions of dollars every year, how is that dead?
The worst period to be an mmo gamer is the time between the end of your first mmo and the start of your second. That period when you're trying everything half assed. Trying to recreate a retired game in futility. That describes most of the people on this forum.
I have no illusions, most will fail.
The ones that succeed may not have even been conceived yet. It will happen though, and it will happen with the indies. The established companies are too risk averse to create anything original.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
Funny saying you have no illusions then bring up an illusion. Too funny.
Don't get me wrong. I'm perfectly willing to accept new things. I had great hope that Rift would be a spiritual successor to Vanguard, and the game was fun at launch. These days, Rift is all about the lottery.
Don't even go there with build variety. The soul system utterly failed at its stated purpose of promoting variety. If you're not playing the current FotM build, it's an auto-kick from the group.
What I'm not willing to accept is dumbed down gameplay, P2W, or solo games that push you max level in less than a month only to rely on world PvP for end game.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Yes it is and worse by the year, but it's already been an empty husk for so many years that it's not news.
Big-business-money moved in to serve derivative slop to the tasteless masses, just like fast food and pop music.
Now it's just an endless strip-mall with more cash shops and gambling boxes than creativity and virtual-worlds.
But this still hooks enough minions that feed them money and blind adulation just like people do to McD's or Justin Bieber, so that's just the way things are now, whether we all like it or not.
So if you enjoy some of what's available today, make sure you play it while you can, because it's going nowhere but further down.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
I havent touched a battle class in 2 months. Refute that. You clearly have no idea and you ARE ignorant to the fact that just because you don't consider it content and something else to do besides your one track minded end game or die conclusion does't make it true. And what does your experience with the series have to do with any of this. It doesn't make you any less ignorant than you currently are. I'm sure opening your eyes to your clear bias is hard but learn to accept the fact that everyone plays these games differently and enjoys it differently and FFXIV ARR is not just a one trick pony like you say it is. And that's the TRUTH.
You choose to play that way it's fine but don't be throwing out nonsense that that's all their is about the game when you ignore the other large percentage of other things the game has to offer.
Actually, at this point its pretty clear that adapting is what killed them. It drove off their core fans and the casuals never flocked. Devs got greedy and the genre paied for it.
WS, ESO, and FF14 are all virtually the same exact game, and had massive issues.
GW2 is good if you're an extremely casual player.
Eve is the only sandbox game there is.
and TSW is basically a singleplayer game.
I'm personally waiting for Moonlight Blade, a Chinese title.
Age of Wulin / Wushu was probably my biggest revelation of the past years and I feel like the Chinese brough some real different takes the on genre with that game.
That said, it's not even sure if the game will ever be translated.
Overall, I don't expect too much from any new game atm. I'm alright with playing Planetside 2 casually and returning to a few games like SW:TOR and GW2 now and then.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
I think thats quite obvious because all of the AAA sandboxes are 15+ years old. The player base back then was tiny. I mean when Ultima Online was like THE mmorpg there was like 250k people playing. That was the playerbase period until EQ and WOW brought in other numbers. Since 2004 there has not been a single AAA sandbox made so thats why there aren't mass populations playing 15 plus year old sandbox games still in the millions. Be real.
Also even though Archeage is a steaming pile of dog feces it still has a few numbers but that game is supposed to be some hybrid between the two anyways and in my opinion shouldn't even belong in the same sentence as sandbox regardless.
Eq over everything else. Then wow over eq.