Originally posted by Axehilt MMORPG Vets: 4 hours of non-gameplay travel followed by instant death = AMAZING GAMEPLAY A zone with a lot of questing gameplay, various activities including combat, and a 'dangerous' side of the zone? = CRAPPY MODERN MMORPGImpossible to argue with that sort of logic.
Apparently you missed the part where Nolf talked about "fighting other mobs" o the way. But, since that was NOT the objective, it must not be considered "gameplay."
Yea, logic like yours can be impossible to argue with...
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by nolf Me: What do you mean whatever I want? What am I SUPPOSED to do?
Someone: You're SUPPOSED to do whatever you want. I'm in a group headed for what we heard is a warzone south of here. Want to come?
Hell yes I did! This naked, ill-equipped newborn Wookie brawler couldn't wait to find a stormtrooper to punch in the face with his starter knife. For the better part of 4 hours, 20 of us braved the virgin wilds of Coronet. No one had any real idea where this supposed battlefield was. A guy apparently knew a guy who knew a guy who gave him rough coordinates to it. We wandered mostly aimlessly, in the general direction we thought we were meant to go. We stumbled onto groups of mobs that we went to town on, and it maybe took a time or two to learn that not everything in the world was beatable just yet. But right out of the clone station, we headed right back out to our supposed destination. Eventually, we came upon the battlefield. And I shit you not, a lagfest ensued that could only be described as fearing your computer was breathing its last breath, and in less than 5 seconds we were popping back up in a clone station while reading a system message about how some turret just killed us. We spent 4 hours together to get there, only to be shipped back in 5 seconds. That was the beginning of a guild that lasted for over TEN YEARS (through a dozen games), and a few friendships that will last our lifetimes.
While I appreciated your whole post, this part was a little different for me.
This experience came in City of Heroes for me. I created my character and did the tutorial. After porting to Atlas Park, I was asked by a few other players if I wanted to team up. I kept declining because I knew very little about the game or my character. I did not want to be detrimental to the other players or worse, get them killed. My first MMORPG, EQ, I did not experience this right off of the bat. I had time to explore and learn my character before anyone asked if I wanted to group up.
The rest, though, eloquently stated
Ohhhhhh CoH. The game i couldn't fully appreciate at the time because it wasn't EVERYTHING. I think I spent as much time in CoX as any other single MMO, however. And when I miss my old, dead, digital characters, I miss my healer from CoX the MOST. Not only was she the most original and awesome looking character I ever had, but also the most highly sought after. I literally had a queue of people waiting for me to heal their groups half the time. It helped her popularity that she looked SO rad!
Ahhhhhh memories.
Now if only someone would make a CoXemu...
I really hope that *insert game name here* will be the first game to ever live up to all of its pre-release promises, maintain a manageable hype level and have a clean release. Just don't expect me to hold my breath.
I believe if you took away the GPS and exclamation marks in the open world then things would become a fair amount more difficult.
It would also require contested content and more difficult combat/zone layout of mobs in general.
Having NPCs that travel around to different zones during the course of the day makes things trickier as well.
Make quests give money and items instead of weapons and armor. Armor can be found on mobs, crafted, or brought from merchants.
Add a death penalty and mechanics to encourage grouping.
I still have trouble finding items and quests for EQ even with Allakhazam. It's not an as easy as it seems to find the information you want.
In summary I think if you made things a certain way people would still have a lot of difficulty progressing through the games and figuring things out. The main problem I feel is that no one would accept It because there are other choices that are of less resistance to getting their fun.
I also find that playgrounds seem to be a bit of a dying thing in our culture. When I grew up kids often hung out together and didn't have anyone watching over them. They often went where ever they wanted to go. Now kids are far more regulated by their parents and teachers. They are only allowed in certain groups. The early MMOs were kind of a reflection of how kids who grew up with more freedom. The current crop feels like kids who grew up not really knowing what freedom was. I don't know which is better or worse. One seems to breed more creativity and determination while the other seems to have more responsibility and empathy.
In summary I think if you made things a certain way people would still have a lot of difficulty progressing through the games and figuring things out. The main problem I feel is that no one would accept It because there are other choices that are of less resistance to getting their fun.
You hit right on what I was getting at at the end, there. Would the current community accept what the old-schoolers pine for? I am hopefully doubtful of that.
As far as the generational gap in how we were raised, I am sure that has massive implications on what the new crop of gamers is going to want, enjoy and pay for. But to be completely honest, I have no idea what. I ran in a pack of wild kids who were tan from the sun by mid spring from being outside at every opportunity. I can't wrap my head around growing up in such a fearful, suspicious and controlled world. My world wasn't any less dangerous than today's world and it wasn't any less brutal. I was just raised with the knowledge that my choices and actions had consequences, and I was allowed to go out into the world and start living and learning from mistakes at a much earlier age than 18 when I got shipped off to college and tasted freedom for the first time. I live with a younger brother half my age who grew up in that different world and I still can't wrap my head around it.
I really hope that *insert game name here* will be the first game to ever live up to all of its pre-release promises, maintain a manageable hype level and have a clean release. Just don't expect me to hold my breath.
your mistake is incorrectly labeling his MMO experience as "non-gameplay".
That's why it makes no sense to your little mind.
Gameplay is decisions. Specifically decisions related to the game rules.
So it's definitely non-gameplay if his only form of entertainment came from socializing, since that's effectively outside the game rules. Chat happens inside the game, but chat isn't the game.
Fighting mobs is gameplay, so depending on whether he did a lot or a little that would determine how much decision-making (gameplay) he actually experienced.
But most travel is effectively non-gameplay, because it involves virtually no decisions.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
your mistake is incorrectly labeling his MMO experience as "non-gameplay".
That's why it makes no sense to your little mind.
Gameplay is decisions. Specifically decisions related to the game rules.
So it's definitely non-gameplay if his only form of entertainment came from socializing, since that's effectively outside the game rules. Chat happens inside the game, but chat isn't the game.
Fighting mobs is gameplay, so depending on whether he did a lot or a little that would determine how much decision-making (gameplay) he actually experienced.
But most travel is effectively non-gameplay, because it involves virtually no decisions.
Evidenced in this discussion is the very "gamerational" gap (TM) I began to talk about.
How does one define "play"? If you google for the definition, the first definition that comes up is as follows:
verb 1 - engage in activity for enjoyment and recreation rather than a serious or practical purpose.
So in this gamerational gap we have one group who wants to define what gameplay "is." The other group seems to understand that play, by its very definition, defies such defining.
Trying to impose a purely subjective view on anyone else, which is a fallacy, since it's purely subjective what is enjoyable and not serious to a person is what is happening here. We've got old-schoolers saying that exploration, socialization and the like are enjoyable distractions from their practical, serious real world lives. We have the new schoolers here saying they are going to define what gameplay is for everyone, and it isn't the aforementioned activities. It is sticking to the practical and serious system, as far as the "game rules" are concerned, which is hilariously the opposite of the definition of play. Half of the word gameplay.
And herein lies the struggle that developers have to grapple with. A HUGE disconnect in the MMORPG community about not only what an MMO should be, but we cannot even seem to agree on the core fundamental and philosophical foundations that such a game is BASED on.
To think, 10 years ago I gave serious consideration to becoming a game designer. I would have been an abysmal failure, as I would have never guessed that the definition of the word play would get turned inside out.
I really hope that *insert game name here* will be the first game to ever live up to all of its pre-release promises, maintain a manageable hype level and have a clean release. Just don't expect me to hold my breath.
Evidenced in this discussion is the very "gamerational" gap (TM) I began to talk about.
How does one define "play"? If you google for the definition, the first definition that comes up is as follows:
verb 1 - engage in activity for enjoyment and recreation rather than a serious or practical purpose.
So in this gamerational gap we have one group who wants to define what gameplay "is." The other group seems to understand that play, by its very definition, defies such defining.
Trying to impose a purely subjective view on anyone else, which is a fallacy, since it's purely subjective what is enjoyable and not serious to a person is what is happening here. We've got old-schoolers saying that exploration, socialization and the like are enjoyable distractions from their practical, serious real world lives. We have the new schoolers here saying they are going to define what gameplay is for everyone, and it isn't the aforementioned activities. It is sticking to the practical and serious system, as far as the "game rules" are concerned, which is hilariously the opposite of the definition of play. Half of the word gameplay.
And herein lies the struggle that developers have to grapple with. A HUGE disconnect in the MMORPG community about not only what an MMO should be, but we cannot even seem to agree on the core fundamental and philosophical foundations that such a game is BASED on.
To think, 10 years ago I gave serious consideration to becoming a game designer. I would have been an abysmal failure, as I would have never guessed that the definition of the word play would get turned inside out.
This was so well said, and deserves to be quoted a few dozen times.
Evidenced in this discussion is the very "gamerational" gap (TM) I began to talk about.
How does one define "play"? If you google for the definition, the first definition that comes up is as follows:
verb 1 - engage in activity for enjoyment and recreation rather than a serious or practical purpose.
So in this gamerational gap we have one group who wants to define what gameplay "is." The other group seems to understand that play, by its very definition, defies such defining.
Trying to impose a purely subjective view on anyone else, which is a fallacy, since it's purely subjective what is enjoyable and not serious to a person is what is happening here. We've got old-schoolers saying that exploration, socialization and the like are enjoyable distractions from their practical, serious real world lives. We have the new schoolers here saying they are going to define what gameplay is for everyone, and it isn't the aforementioned activities. It is sticking to the practical and serious system, as far as the "game rules" are concerned, which is hilariously the opposite of the definition of play. Half of the word gameplay.
And herein lies the struggle that developers have to grapple with. A HUGE disconnect in the MMORPG community about not only what an MMO should be, but we cannot even seem to agree on the core fundamental and philosophical foundations that such a game is BASED on.
To think, 10 years ago I gave serious consideration to becoming a game designer. I would have been an abysmal failure, as I would have never guessed that the definition of the word play would get turned inside out.
Considering the definition I think a lot of us are failing to play.
Theoretically since this is a game "waste of time" is irrelevant. By that definition any game is playing since none of them really serve a purpose in life other then to entertain. That is why IMO walking around a virtual world isn't a "waste of time" any more then jumping in, doing some quests quickly via GPS, and jumping out is a waste of time.
Personally I don't find exploring or traveling a "waste of time". You are viewing the great landscapes the developers put a lot of time in to create for you to travel through. It adds to the feeling that the world is really a large, unexplored, dangerous, place. Traveling is no more a "waste of time" then hiking for people in real life. Perhaps a lot of people today just don't truly understand wanderlust or adventure.
To me you can find a justification/reason for almost anything in a game. By the definition you posted a game is "not serious or practical". That basically means it is a "waste of time". Games never were a "waste of time" to me when I was a kid. They weren't a waste because I got a lot of enjoyment playing them. They allowed me to connect with other people in a way that was difficult for me to do in real life as a kid. They also made me forget my worries and my fears. I believe the opposite is true as an adult. Games often bring out my fears of wasting time. Perhaps that's why many people are so obsessed with not wasting time as a lot of adults are playing games. Unfortunately when you are obsessing over weather you are "wasting time" in a game you are already in a losing battle and might as well quit. The point of a game is to have fun "what ever that is for you". To me fun might include a large range of emotions "not just happiness".
I often wonder in part as you age what effect that has on gaming. I like to draw a comparison to the matrix. After a while you have stared at a game so long you no longer see environments and adventures. Now all you see is scripted code leading you around from place to place. At this point you have to ask yourself weather you can just relax and enjoy the journey (which is the main point IMO). My reasoning is often that the journey is lost because of responsibility. You have people too concerned about "wasting time" and not enough about just enjoying the game an what's there. This is what has led to things like fast travel and GPS. I understand why they are there because most adults don't have time to spend on games for enjoyment. They can only a lot a small amount of time and have to play it with that mindset. The problem is if you play with that mindset you can't really enjoy the journey. The journey requires time investment to an extent. It could be that I consider games a waste of time as I get older as well. I can't relax enough to truly enjoy the experience properly. I'd rather read a book or watch a documentary often times. When I'm playing all I can think of is "wasting time". Perhaps it is just a result of getting older or a result of the times where everyone is tense about getting jobs and surviving in general. There is no longer the luxury of wasting time for many people. To me you can't enjoy a game if you can't let of the fact that it isn't going to serve a purpose other then to have mindless fun in many cases. If you can't do that then perhaps it is indeed time to stop playing and find something else to do. It is what I have done in many cases even though I have loved games for a long time before I can remember.
The escape route you left open typing the word "Most" in the last sentence shows you knew I'd come after you.
I will not attack any individual part of your post, as I believe such a conversation would serve no purpose.
It's a biblical argument at this point, my good sir. I can't explain to a non-MMO player what an MMO is any more than a priest can explain an atheist what the Bible is.
I will say simply this: Please don't limit the focus of your entertainment to MMOs alone.
To be fair, it's a pretty big "most". Puzzle Pirates is one of very few games that makes travel have gameplay (because nearly all its gameplay is the act of traveling.)
I don't know of any MMORPG with significant travel gameplay. Avoiding mobs is a single raindrop in a desert.
The priest's extraordinary claims are not backed by appropriately extraordinary evidence, so we can discount his claims about the Bible as baseless (assuming he claims it's anything more than the most successful meme of all time.) It turns out our world works in understandable ways, and science and evidence can be used to predict future success. Which is why Blizzard's gameplay-focused MMORPG blew the timesink-focused MMORPGs out of the water, since they used evidence of what players liked from previous genres to prove out a theory that they'd prefer that sort of gameplay in their MMORPGs.
I don't limit my entertainment to MMOs alone. In fact usually I'm the only one in the room seeing the links between various forms of entertainment -- like how Tolkien didn't make us suffer through agonizing detail of the entire year-long journey in LOTR. He skipped to the interesting parts. Like MMORPGs with fast travel do.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I'm a firm believer that anyone who enjoys mmo's would love to see a world built for the players to create there own fun. A world full of surprises and intrigue given to us by developers for us to find. A place where we can gather our groups to climb a mountain to battle something believed to be undefeatable. The group should be trusted to do there part, and no matter how long it takes to accomplish the task. Not every time you log on you will find such a group, it would take knowing your server, having friends and Guilds. No fast travel, the group has to battle there way to the prize.
The people here on mmoprg.com that feel this is a time sync ARE NOT mmo players, they are something else. There people that like quick fast fun with others around them as props for unspoken dynamic events, dungeon finders and people looking for a free game to play. After all what better way to play a game for free than an mmo with F2P !....This type of player should have there own web site or mmoprg.com should separate " mmorpg's " from " games with others online ".............However sadly enough there are no longer mmorpg's. And the very few that are left sold there sole and went F2P.
Us mmoprg players need an mmo...........At least just one !
Evidenced in this discussion is the very "gamerational" gap (TM) I began to talk about.
How does one define "play"? If you google for the definition, the first definition that comes up is as follows:
verb 1 - engage in activity for enjoyment and recreation rather than a serious or practical purpose.
So in this gamerational gap we have one group who wants to define what gameplay "is." The other group seems to understand that play, by its very definition, defies such defining.
Trying to impose a purely subjective view on anyone else, which is a fallacy, since it's purely subjective what is enjoyable and not serious to a person is what is happening here. We've got old-schoolers saying that exploration, socialization and the like are enjoyable distractions from their practical, serious real world lives. We have the new schoolers here saying they are going to define what gameplay is for everyone, and it isn't the aforementioned activities. It is sticking to the practical and serious system, as far as the "game rules" are concerned, which is hilariously the opposite of the definition of play. Half of the word gameplay.
And herein lies the struggle that developers have to grapple with. A HUGE disconnect in the MMORPG community about not only what an MMO should be, but we cannot even seem to agree on the core fundamental and philosophical foundations that such a game is BASED on.
To think, 10 years ago I gave serious consideration to becoming a game designer. I would have been an abysmal failure, as I would have never guessed that the definition of the word play would get turned inside out.
Considering the definition I think a lot of us are failing to play.
Theoretically since this is a game "waste of time" is irrelevant. By that definition any game is playing since none of them really serve a purpose in life other then to entertain. That is why IMO walking around a virtual world isn't a "waste of time" any more then jumping in, doing some quests quickly via GPS, and jumping out is a waste of time.
Personally I don't find exploring or traveling a "waste of time". You are viewing the great landscapes the developers put a lot of time in to create for you to travel through. It adds to the feeling that the world is really a large, unexplored, dangerous, place. Traveling is no more a "waste of time" then hiking for people in real life. Perhaps a lot of people today just don't truly understand wanderlust or adventure.
To me you can find a justification/reason for almost anything in a game. By the definition you posted a game is "not serious or practical". That basically means it is a "waste of time". Games never were a "waste of time" to me when I was a kid. They weren't a waste because I got a lot of enjoyment playing them. They allowed me to connect with other people in a way that was difficult for me to do in real life as a kid. They also made me forget my worries and my fears. I believe the opposite is true as an adult. Games often bring out my fears of wasting time. Perhaps that's why many people are so obsessed with not wasting time as a lot of adults are playing games. Unfortunately when you are obsessing over weather you are "wasting time" in a game you are already in a losing battle and might as well quit. The point of a game is to have fun "what ever that is for you". To me fun might include a large range of emotions "not just happiness".
I often wonder in part as you age what effect that has on gaming. I like to draw a comparison to the matrix. After a while you have stared at a game so long you no longer see environments and adventures. Now all you see is scripted code leading you around from place to place. At this point you have to ask yourself weather you can just relax and enjoy the journey (which is the main point IMO). My reasoning is often that the journey is lost because of responsibility. You have people too concerned about "wasting time" and not enough about just enjoying the game an what's there. This is what has led to things like fast travel and GPS. I understand why they are there because most adults don't have time to spend on games for enjoyment. They can only a lot a small amount of time and have to play it with that mindset. The problem is if you play with that mindset you can't really enjoy the journey. The journey requires time investment to an extent. It could be that I consider games a waste of time as I get older as well. I can't relax enough to truly enjoy the experience properly. I'd rather read a book or watch a documentary often times. When I'm playing all I can think of is "wasting time". Perhaps it is just a result of getting older or a result of the times where everyone is tense about getting jobs and surviving in general. There is no longer the luxury of wasting time for many people. To me you can't enjoy a game if you can't let of the fact that it isn't going to serve a purpose other then to have mindless fun in many cases. If you can't do that then perhaps it is indeed time to stop playing and find something else to do. It is what I have done in many cases even though I have loved games for a long time before I can remember.
A really interesting perspective, as I find that most of the folks not "wasting time" in games tend to be of the newer breed as opposed to the old-schoolers. But that just goes to show that you while one can make broad generalizations about groups of people, they're always going to come up looking wrong as hell somewhere!
I feel that as the old-schoolers age into this mentality, they will probably forego MMOing, and sometimes even video gaming in general for other more fulfilling activities. As you have apparently started to with your documentary watching and such (you old coot!). I know that I go through stints myself where I don't even load an MMO or fire up my console for weeks at a time. This is a relatively new development in my progression as a gamer.
But one thing that hasn't changed for me personally is HOW I game when I game. I still want to play in that sandbox. I know damn well that my time spent on gaming is completely non-productive in terms of life, and I'm completely okay with it being non-productive in terms of game progression as well. If the experience is good, it can be reward enough. Finding a really hard to get to spot on a mountain somewhere to take some screenshots is just as much fun, if not more fun to me than banging out a bunch of levels or dungeons or dailies. Man I hate dailies.
That's not to say I don't go grind my ass off as well, at times. My time just doesn't always have to be "productive".
I really hope that *insert game name here* will be the first game to ever live up to all of its pre-release promises, maintain a manageable hype level and have a clean release. Just don't expect me to hold my breath.
The point you are missing here, is that what seems to be left behind is the idea that the journey in and of itself can be rewarding, not just the destination.
Thanks for the nice read OP:)
The above quote is in my opinion very important, as it to some extent summarizes the difference in point of views. I still maintain my stand that gameplay can be found anywhere if the player knows where to look for (and in the ideal case, how to create it himself). Your example of that is in my opinion very good.
In modern games, players need more incentives, are used to guiding and as such Axe's view is common and feels right to most. The long term challenge still remains, how should mmorpgs tap that potential while making it feel immediate enough for players like Axe. In the meanwhile, well, you know. Diversification and so on.
I'm a firm believer that anyone who enjoys mmo's would love to see a world built for the players to create there own fun. A world full of surprises and intrigue given to us by developers for us to find. A place where we can gather our groups to climb a mountain to battle something believed to be undefeatable. The group should be trusted to do there part, and no matter how long it takes to accomplish the task. Not every time you log on you will find such a group, it would take knowing your server, having friends and Guilds. No fast travel, the group has to battle there way to the prize.
The people here on mmoprg.com that feel this is a time sync ARE NOT mmo players, they are something else. There people that like quick fast fun with others around them as props for unspoken dynamic events, dungeon finders and people looking for a free game to play. After all what better way to play a game for free than an mmo with F2P !....This type of player should have there own web site or mmoprg.com should separate " mmorpg's " from " games with others online ".............However sadly enough there are no longer mmorpg's. And the very few that are left sold there sole and went F2P.
Us mmoprg players need an mmo...........At least just one !
I will wholeheartedly agree with your first paragraph!
As to the second, we're back to how we fundamentally define what terms like "MMO" and "Gameplay" and such. I know how I define them, but I don't believe in imposing those definitions on others who see it differently than I do. Their formative MMO experiences were different than mine, and so therefore are their expectations of them.
I can't say I don't LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE the idea of all of us like minded folks getting into an MMO that offers us the tools to play how we used to play. How we strive to play now, but always feel like we're coming up a little short.
I really hope that *insert game name here* will be the first game to ever live up to all of its pre-release promises, maintain a manageable hype level and have a clean release. Just don't expect me to hold my breath.
I'm a firm believer that anyone who enjoys mmo's would love to see a world built for the players to create there own fun. A world full of surprises and intrigue given to us by developers for us to find. A place where we can gather our groups to climb a mountain to battle something believed to be undefeatable. The group should be trusted to do there part, and no matter how long it takes to accomplish the task. Not every time you log on you will find such a group, it would take knowing your server, having friends and Guilds. No fast travel, the group has to battle there way to the prize.
The people here on mmoprg.com that feel this is a time sync ARE NOT mmo players, they are something else. There people that like quick fast fun with others around them as props for unspoken dynamic events, dungeon finders and people looking for a free game to play. After all what better way to play a game for free than an mmo with F2P !....This type of player should have there own web site or mmoprg.com should separate " mmorpg's " from " games with others online ".............However sadly enough there are no longer mmorpg's. And the very few that are left sold there sole and went F2P.
Us mmoprg players need an mmo...........At least just one !
I will wholeheartedly agree with your first paragraph!
As to the second, we're back to how we fundamentally define what terms like "MMO" and "Gameplay" and such. I know how I define them, but I don't believe in imposing those definitions on others who see it differently than I do. Their formative MMO experiences were different than mine, and so therefore are their expectations of them.
I can't say I don't LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE the idea of all of us like minded folks getting into an MMO that offers us the tools to play how we used to play. How we strive to play now, but always feel like we're coming up a little short.
Im sure you can agree that you would like at least ONE mmo described in the first paragraph. Maybe FF11, however It's a little off beat for my taste.....One new one would be fine !
Evidenced in this discussion is the very "gamerational" gap (TM) I began to talk about.
How does one define "play"? If you google for the definition, the first definition that comes up is as follows:
verb 1 - engage in activity for enjoyment and recreation rather than a serious or practical purpose.
So in this gamerational gap we have one group who wants to define what gameplay "is." The other group seems to understand that play, by its very definition, defies such defining.
Trying to impose a purely subjective view on anyone else, which is a fallacy, since it's purely subjective what is enjoyable and not serious to a person is what is happening here. We've got old-schoolers saying that exploration, socialization and the like are enjoyable distractions from their practical, serious real world lives. We have the new schoolers here saying they are going to define what gameplay is for everyone, and it isn't the aforementioned activities. It is sticking to the practical and serious system, as far as the "game rules" are concerned, which is hilariously the opposite of the definition of play. Half of the word gameplay.
And herein lies the struggle that developers have to grapple with. A HUGE disconnect in the MMORPG community about not only what an MMO should be, but we cannot even seem to agree on the core fundamental and philosophical foundations that such a game is BASED on.
To think, 10 years ago I gave serious consideration to becoming a game designer. I would have been an abysmal failure, as I would have never guessed that the definition of the word play would get turned inside out.
Considering the definition I think a lot of us are failing to play.
Theoretically since this is a game "waste of time" is irrelevant. By that definition any game is playing since none of them really serve a purpose in life other then to entertain. That is why IMO walking around a virtual world isn't a "waste of time" any more then jumping in, doing some quests quickly via GPS, and jumping out is a waste of time.
Personally I don't find exploring or traveling a "waste of time". You are viewing the great landscapes the developers put a lot of time in to create for you to travel through. It adds to the feeling that the world is really a large, unexplored, dangerous, place. Traveling is no more a "waste of time" then hiking for people in real life. Perhaps a lot of people today just don't truly understand wanderlust or adventure.
To me you can find a justification/reason for almost anything in a game. By the definition you posted a game is "not serious or practical". That basically means it is a "waste of time". Games never were a "waste of time" to me when I was a kid. They weren't a waste because I got a lot of enjoyment playing them. They allowed me to connect with other people in a way that was difficult for me to do in real life as a kid. They also made me forget my worries and my fears. I believe the opposite is true as an adult. Games often bring out my fears of wasting time. Perhaps that's why many people are so obsessed with not wasting time as a lot of adults are playing games. Unfortunately when you are obsessing over weather you are "wasting time" in a game you are already in a losing battle and might as well quit. The point of a game is to have fun "what ever that is for you". To me fun might include a large range of emotions "not just happiness".
I often wonder in part as you age what effect that has on gaming. I like to draw a comparison to the matrix. After a while you have stared at a game so long you no longer see environments and adventures. Now all you see is scripted code leading you around from place to place. At this point you have to ask yourself weather you can just relax and enjoy the journey (which is the main point IMO). My reasoning is often that the journey is lost because of responsibility. You have people too concerned about "wasting time" and not enough about just enjoying the game an what's there. This is what has led to things like fast travel and GPS. I understand why they are there because most adults don't have time to spend on games for enjoyment. They can only a lot a small amount of time and have to play it with that mindset. The problem is if you play with that mindset you can't really enjoy the journey. The journey requires time investment to an extent. It could be that I consider games a waste of time as I get older as well. I can't relax enough to truly enjoy the experience properly. I'd rather read a book or watch a documentary often times. When I'm playing all I can think of is "wasting time". Perhaps it is just a result of getting older or a result of the times where everyone is tense about getting jobs and surviving in general. There is no longer the luxury of wasting time for many people. To me you can't enjoy a game if you can't let of the fact that it isn't going to serve a purpose other then to have mindless fun in many cases. If you can't do that then perhaps it is indeed time to stop playing and find something else to do. It is what I have done in many cases even though I have loved games for a long time before I can remember.
A really interesting perspective, as I find that most of the folks not "wasting time" in games tend to be of the newer breed as opposed to the old-schoolers. But that just goes to show that you while one can make broad generalizations about groups of people, they're always going to come up looking wrong as hell somewhere!
I feel that as the old-schoolers age into this mentality, they will probably forego MMOing, and sometimes even video gaming in general for other more fulfilling activities. As you have apparently started to with your documentary watching and such (you old coot!). I know that I go through stints myself where I don't even load an MMO or fire up my console for weeks at a time. This is a relatively new development in my progression as a gamer.
But one thing that hasn't changed for me personally is HOW I game when I game. I still want to play in that sandbox. I know damn well that my time spent on gaming is completely non-productive in terms of life, and I'm completely okay with it being non-productive in terms of game progression as well. If the experience is good, it can be reward enough. Finding a really hard to get to spot on a mountain somewhere to take some screenshots is just as much fun, if not more fun to me than banging out a bunch of levels or dungeons or dailies. Man I hate dailies.
That's not to say I don't go grind my ass off as well, at times. My time just doesn't always have to be "productive".
I was thinking one day these people who like the scripted content will realize how much money and time they wasted on it jumping from game to game. Then they will likely lump these games in with the wasted time older games are considered to be. Someone will come out with a new idea that is the ultimate fun experience. You will not have to play the game at all. You can do work and learn new things while the game plays for you. Either that or people will chalk games up as a waste of time in general and ban them from being played at all.
Perhaps one day people will realize that traveling around and seeing different things in game is no more a waste of time then anything else. JRR Tolkien actually describes his worlds in great detail and even though he cuts out a lot of the journey in his books there is still a lot of it there. If he added everything the books would be to large. They are already to large as it is IMO.
One of the things that makes humans is traveling and exploring. You see homo sapiens impact on the world and it is everywhere. We started as hunter gathers and have been traveling/exploring most of our lives. It's only recently that the world has been almost fully occupied with not as much to explore. That craving to explore/travel is still there IMO and it's ingrained into us. That's why I find it hard to imagine why people think following a scripted path quickly through a game is fun. Perhaps that wanderlust has been removed from society in general with how everyone is being watching, everything is visible (big brother's watching), and everything is so controlled. There is no room left for creativity or imagination like our ancestors have shown in the past.
Personally I think I would have trouble enjoying any type of game at this point just because I've played so many over the years, but that doesn't change my feelings that I don't like the direction games have gone and their tunnel vision in seeing how x mechanic in old games was used just to make more money, but of course there aren't mechanics being used in todays games to exploit people at all Of course in reality that is the furthest thing from the truth.
Reading what you wrote OP you spent one hour creating your character, 3 hours wandering about and then 4 hours with your new friends. That is 8 hours you spent. I am not making any judgments or trying to pour cold water on your recollection but when I started playing Everquest I too spend an inordinate amount of time on it and when it almost ended my marriage I kind of woke up.
I do spend time playing if I can everyday but I have really cut down long sessions. Much maligned are games these days perhaps they should add a turn off quest markers and locations in the options to help people but they are there to a large extent because people want to spend less time looking for quests and locations. That sounds very unromantic but that is in a nutshell the reason for the changes.
I agree with flyte where he talks about guilt. I suffer from it especially because my son was younger then when I played Everquest and I think I neglected to speak more to him. He now of course plays games but those moments with him are lost forever because I did not leave Everquest long enough to spend more time talking to him. I was not as neglectful as those parents who have starved their kids while playing but I was neglectful.
I cannot go back to those days while I may think of my times in Everquest fondly well perhaps not the 36 hours trying to get my corpses from Fear I still love that game. It was the best time of my MMORPG life. I cannot however in good conscience ever play like that again. I know that people say you can get the same thing in smaller doses but you cannot. You needed to spend large chunks of time in those games to progress. If I left my spot on Sol B I cannot get it back because there is a queue and so you stay as long as you can. When you stay as long as you can other parts of your life suffer. This is the cold hard truth of the reality why games these days do not expect more than a couple of hours at a time from you.
We are forlorn and wistful because we cannot immerse ourselves like we could in the old games but we often forget the toll it took on other aspects of our lives. Yes we hope a happy medium can be attained and what we have these days the lobby games with slices of zones and experiences doled out to us in small sizes simply cannot answer the void in us.
I think the games these days have only been borne out of the need to allow us to enjoy this genre as a hobby and their inelegant solutions are jarring and we want better solutions and we hope times improve but seriously so many of you come on these boards and start threads about the good old days and wax poetic about them do not give the current games enough of a chance. Granted some of them are bad but you need to try them harder and try to like them better because they allow you to also do other things in life.
Go back and try the games that are available now and approach them differently. I enjoy them and although I can never get back the magic of Everquest I have found some enjoyment in SWTOR,FFXIV ARR,ESO yes even Wildstar and I think TSW is rather unique. As long as you grouse and never try to find some merit in what is out there currently you will never be able to move on. I see the usual suspects starting threads about how sad they are that they cannot find anything they can like and in my opinion as long as they continue along this path no game will ever be able to satisfy them even moderately because nothing can compete with your memory.
Reading what you wrote OP you spent one hour creating your character, 3 hours wandering about and then 4 hours with your new friends. That is 8 hours you spent. I am not making any judgments or trying to pour cold water on your recollection but when I started playing Everquest I too spend an inordinate amount of time on it and when it almost ended my marriage I kind of woke up.
I do spend time playing if I can everyday but I have really cut down long sessions. Much maligned are games these days perhaps they should add a turn off quest markers and locations in the options to help people but they are there to a large extent because people want to spend less time looking for quests and locations. That sounds very unromantic but that is in a nutshell the reason for the changes.
I agree with flyte where he talks about guilt. I suffer from it especially because my son was younger then when I played Everquest and I think I neglected to speak more to him. He now of course plays games but those moments with him are lost forever because I did not leave Everquest long enough to spend more time talking to him. I was not as neglectful as those parents who have starved their kids while playing but I was neglectful.
I cannot go back to those days while I may think of my times in Everquest fondly well perhaps not the 36 hours trying to get my corpses from Fear I still love that game. It was the best time of my MMORPG life. I cannot however in good conscience ever play like that again. I know that people say you can get the same thing in smaller doses but you cannot. You needed to spend large chunks of time in those games to progress. If I left my spot on Sol B I cannot get it back because there is a queue and so you stay as long as you can. When you stay as long as you can other parts of your life suffer. This is the cold hard truth of the reality why games these days do not expect more than a couple of hours at a time from you.
We are forlorn and wistful because we cannot immerse ourselves like we could in the old games but we often forget the toll it took on other aspects of our lives. Yes we hope a happy medium can be attained and what we have these days the lobby games with slices of zones and experiences doled out to us in small sizes simply cannot answer the void in us.
I think the games these days have only been borne out of the need to allow us to enjoy this genre as a hobby and their inelegant solutions are jarring and we want better solutions and we hope times improve but seriously so many of you come on these boards and start threads about the good old days and wax poetic about them do not give the current games enough of a chance. Granted some of them are bad but you need to try them harder and try to like them better because they allow you to also do other things in life.
Go back and try the games that are available now and approach them differently. I enjoy them and although I can never get back the magic of Everquest I have found some enjoyment in SWTOR,FFXIV ARR,ESO yes even Wildstar and I think TSW is rather unique. As long as you grouse and never try to find some merit in what is out there currently you will never be able to move on. I see the usual suspects starting threads about how sad they are that they cannot find anything they can like and in my opinion as long as they continue along this path no game will ever be able to satisfy them even moderately because nothing can compete with your memory.
WoW Chey, that story had great impact on me....Your right !
The only thing I wish is that games were not so carrot-on-a-stick handholding, dynamic, and F2P to the point that their not community.
Reading what you wrote OP you spent one hour creating your character, 3 hours wandering about and then 4 hours with your new friends. That is 8 hours you spent. I am not making any judgments or trying to pour cold water on your recollection but when I started playing Everquest I too spend an inordinate amount of time on it and when it almost ended my marriage I kind of woke up.
I do spend time playing if I can everyday but I have really cut down long sessions. Much maligned are games these days perhaps they should add a turn off quest markers and locations in the options to help people but they are there to a large extent because people want to spend less time looking for quests and locations. That sounds very unromantic but that is in a nutshell the reason for the changes.
I agree with flyte where he talks about guilt. I suffer from it especially because my son was younger then when I played Everquest and I think I neglected to speak more to him. He now of course plays games but those moments with him are lost forever because I did not leave Everquest long enough to spend more time talking to him. I was not as neglectful as those parents who have starved their kids while playing but I was neglectful.
I cannot go back to those days while I may think of my times in Everquest fondly well perhaps not the 36 hours trying to get my corpses from Fear I still love that game. It was the best time of my MMORPG life. I cannot however in good conscience ever play like that again. I know that people say you can get the same thing in smaller doses but you cannot. You needed to spend large chunks of time in those games to progress. If I left my spot on Sol B I cannot get it back because there is a queue and so you stay as long as you can. When you stay as long as you can other parts of your life suffer. This is the cold hard truth of the reality why games these days do not expect more than a couple of hours at a time from you.
We are forlorn and wistful because we cannot immerse ourselves like we could in the old games but we often forget the toll it took on other aspects of our lives. Yes we hope a happy medium can be attained and what we have these days the lobby games with slices of zones and experiences doled out to us in small sizes simply cannot answer the void in us.
I think the games these days have only been borne out of the need to allow us to enjoy this genre as a hobby and their inelegant solutions are jarring and we want better solutions and we hope times improve but seriously so many of you come on these boards and start threads about the good old days and wax poetic about them do not give the current games enough of a chance. Granted some of them are bad but you need to try them harder and try to like them better because they allow you to also do other things in life.
Go back and try the games that are available now and approach them differently. I enjoy them and although I can never get back the magic of Everquest I have found some enjoyment in SWTOR,FFXIV ARR,ESO yes even Wildstar and I think TSW is rather unique. As long as you grouse and never try to find some merit in what is out there currently you will never be able to move on. I see the usual suspects starting threads about how sad they are that they cannot find anything they can like and in my opinion as long as they continue along this path no game will ever be able to satisfy them even moderately because nothing can compete with your memory.
I can't disagree with you on either point. I just not sure that games are worth playing in the way they are played now. I agree it's more important to take care of things in real life, but luckily I wasn't involved in anything when I was playing games like Ultima Online, Everquest, and World of Warcraft. This allowed me to have fun without worrying if I was neglecting much of anything. Perhaps that's why games are for kids and not for adults. Adults have to much to worry about in real life most of the time. I still wouldn't trade my experience in any of those games. It was a really good time. If I had a son, daughter, or wife I might feel differently. If I was around 16 to 25 years old I would probably do it all over again, but since I'm older I doubt I would sink a lot of time into any game. I still think it's a fun experience if you are young and have the time to spend. Much better then what you get from the scripted content now. I'm not certain that even kids have time to truly sink the proper amount of required time into games now to truly enjoy them properly. They are all going to soccer practice, band practice, play group, or whatever activity their parents put them in.
Reading what you wrote OP you spent one hour creating your character, 3 hours wandering about and then 4 hours with your new friends. That is 8 hours you spent. I am not making any judgments or trying to pour cold water on your recollection but when I started playing Everquest I too spend an inordinate amount of time on it and when it almost ended my marriage I kind of woke up.
I do spend time playing if I can everyday but I have really cut down long sessions. Much maligned are games these days perhaps they should add a turn off quest markers and locations in the options to help people but they are there to a large extent because people want to spend less time looking for quests and locations. That sounds very unromantic but that is in a nutshell the reason for the changes.
I agree with flyte where he talks about guilt. I suffer from it especially because my son was younger then when I played Everquest and I think I neglected to speak more to him. He now of course plays games but those moments with him are lost forever because I did not leave Everquest long enough to spend more time talking to him. I was not as neglectful as those parents who have starved their kids while playing but I was neglectful.
I cannot go back to those days while I may think of my times in Everquest fondly well perhaps not the 36 hours trying to get my corpses from Fear I still love that game. It was the best time of my MMORPG life. I cannot however in good conscience ever play like that again. I know that people say you can get the same thing in smaller doses but you cannot. You needed to spend large chunks of time in those games to progress. If I left my spot on Sol B I cannot get it back because there is a queue and so you stay as long as you can. When you stay as long as you can other parts of your life suffer. This is the cold hard truth of the reality why games these days do not expect more than a couple of hours at a time from you.
We are forlorn and wistful because we cannot immerse ourselves like we could in the old games but we often forget the toll it took on other aspects of our lives. Yes we hope a happy medium can be attained and what we have these days the lobby games with slices of zones and experiences doled out to us in small sizes simply cannot answer the void in us.
I think the games these days have only been borne out of the need to allow us to enjoy this genre as a hobby and their inelegant solutions are jarring and we want better solutions and we hope times improve but seriously so many of you come on these boards and start threads about the good old days and wax poetic about them do not give the current games enough of a chance. Granted some of them are bad but you need to try them harder and try to like them better because they allow you to also do other things in life.
Go back and try the games that are available now and approach them differently. I enjoy them and although I can never get back the magic of Everquest I have found some enjoyment in SWTOR,FFXIV ARR,ESO yes even Wildstar and I think TSW is rather unique. As long as you grouse and never try to find some merit in what is out there currently you will never be able to move on. I see the usual suspects starting threads about how sad they are that they cannot find anything they can like and in my opinion as long as they continue along this path no game will ever be able to satisfy them even moderately because nothing can compete with your memory.
I was in my early 40's when I first played MMOs, with 3 children and plated MMOs like I did single player games, in small bursts when I had free time. I did get a bit carried away with longer vanilla WOW raiding, but it was mostly my sleep that suffered, not my family.
My son was 8 when I first played Lineage 1, and we played side by side for many years until playing with his friends, jobs, girlfriends became more important. (I always insisted on a strong emphasis on his school work first, which he always kept up on)
While it certainly grated on me at times, those long raids you mention were never for me. Once in my life I waited 8 hours for a boss spawn (never again), and once my son and I did a 9 hour WOW session and agreed we felt ill afterwards and never repeated it.
My point is, I learned to take from those early games only what I had time for, and skip the rest leaving it to those who had the time and desire to do it. Problem with today's MMOs is they have largely eliminated all longer term content, leaving nothing for those who still can enjoy it. (Which stinks as now my children have all grown up and I actually have more time for some of it)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by delete5230 Love your post Nolf, I miss real mmo's too.Anyway, ESO is the most liner game I had ever played.This is how you play it :First you have the starting area up to about level 3, then you move to your first real zone level 4-10. Your allowed to quest two levels at a time by moving across the map either bottom to top or left to right. Don't try going too far because you will be above your level. When the content gets a little easer proceed farther to the right. When you get to level 10 you'll be strong enough to run the entire zone to collect your crafting mats. Then you can move to the 11-20 zone and so on......Don't bother making any friends because your on a mega server and never see them again.......Don't bother joining a Guild because you don't need one its liner, just move left to right .......MMO my Butt !!
If you're a "oldschool" gamer I suspect your playstyle has changed allot?
While ESO is nothing like a oldschoolgame it definitly doesn't have to be played that linear as delete5230 makes it out to be. Atleast in my opinion.
Also in older MMORPG's we had area's/worlds/planets that were above your level/skill. And like ESO you where still able to explore but obvious not able to do much more except some harvesting.
Making friends doesn't really matter if it's a 3k server or megaserver. Multible way's to connect to them. Not really sure what your issue is on this.
Regardless if a game is linear or more open some players like to be guilded no matter what. Overcome challenges together, create their own challenges.
While I don't like the direction this genre has gone into I feel I am still that old school player, I still find my own niche even in those so-called linear games.
OP: Really enjoyed your post...brought back some great memories..
Look we know you are an avid defender of Eso but the game is as linear as he describes it. Are you telling me that from level one I can go to any top level area without doing a single quest?
4 hours of non-gameplay travel followed by instant death = AMAZING GAMEPLAY
A zone with a lot of questing gameplay, various activities including combat, and a 'dangerous' side of the zone? = CRAPPY MODERN MMORPG
Impossible to argue with that sort of logic.
You also seem to miss the point of the adventure of making things happen on your own. In SWG the origin of the term themepark you were given the choice and quest were something you did by choice. Much of the magic of old MMORPG's was not knowing. It was doing what you wanted. In EQ I leveled up a Qeynos character in Freeport because I wanted to make the journey which was dangerous and fun as a low level. Today's MMORPG's everyone levels in the same spots. In UO I robbed people at the crossroads of Vesper and fought massive wars between PK's and anti-PKs. In AC I wandered the huge map just to see what was there and died hours out to some flame spitting rat after trying to out run it.
Questing is overdone. Gameplay, the world, the genre are tied to questing. It was novel with WoW but its been 10 years and its old. There is a such thing as too much of a good thing. Most players given the option would skip all questing and be instant max levels. Most MMORPG's are essentially bad Bioware RPGs. It has even effected my single player RPG experience because I don't have much patients to hear the story anymore.
Originally posted by Fearum You are the "GO GO GO" guy in groups aren't you?
If you queued for the dungeon, you came for the dungeon. There's no purpose to waiting around wasting time when you could be having fun.As you play more games, you'll learn that most people play games for the gameplay.
How many types of "gameplay" are there, oh wise one? Is the ONE that you enjoy most the ONLY one for all of us?
And we wonder why developers "just do not get it..."
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I'm a firm believer that anyone who enjoys mmo's would love to see a world built for the players to create there own fun. A world full of surprises and intrigue given to us by developers for us to find. A place where we can gather our groups to climb a mountain to battle something believed to be undefeatable. The group should be trusted to do there part, and no matter how long it takes to accomplish the task. Not every time you log on you will find such a group, it would take knowing your server, having friends and Guilds. No fast travel, the group has to battle there way to the prize.
The people here on mmoprg.com that feel this is a time sync ARE NOT mmo players, they are something else. There people that like quick fast fun with others around them as props for unspoken dynamic events, dungeon finders and people looking for a free game to play. After all what better way to play a game for free than an mmo with F2P !....This type of player should have there own web site or mmoprg.com should separate " mmorpg's " from " games with others online ".............However sadly enough there are no longer mmorpg's. And the very few that are left sold there sole and went F2P.
Us mmoprg players need an mmo...........At least just one !
Belief doesn't change reality.
Modern MMORPG players are the only ones playing MMORPGs. Believing that they aren't MMORPG players doesn't change that.
Modern MMORPGs are basically the only type being made. Believing they aren't MMORPGs doesn't change the fact that they are MMORPGs.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Comments
Yea, logic like yours can be impossible to argue with...
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Ohhhhhh CoH. The game i couldn't fully appreciate at the time because it wasn't EVERYTHING. I think I spent as much time in CoX as any other single MMO, however. And when I miss my old, dead, digital characters, I miss my healer from CoX the MOST. Not only was she the most original and awesome looking character I ever had, but also the most highly sought after. I literally had a queue of people waiting for me to heal their groups half the time. It helped her popularity that she looked SO rad!
Ahhhhhh memories.
Now if only someone would make a CoXemu...
I really hope that *insert game name here* will be the first game to ever live up to all of its pre-release promises, maintain a manageable hype level and have a clean release. Just don't expect me to hold my breath.
I believe if you took away the GPS and exclamation marks in the open world then things would become a fair amount more difficult.
It would also require contested content and more difficult combat/zone layout of mobs in general.
Having NPCs that travel around to different zones during the course of the day makes things trickier as well.
Make quests give money and items instead of weapons and armor. Armor can be found on mobs, crafted, or brought from merchants.
Add a death penalty and mechanics to encourage grouping.
I still have trouble finding items and quests for EQ even with Allakhazam. It's not an as easy as it seems to find the information you want.
In summary I think if you made things a certain way people would still have a lot of difficulty progressing through the games and figuring things out. The main problem I feel is that no one would accept It because there are other choices that are of less resistance to getting their fun.
I also find that playgrounds seem to be a bit of a dying thing in our culture. When I grew up kids often hung out together and didn't have anyone watching over them. They often went where ever they wanted to go. Now kids are far more regulated by their parents and teachers. They are only allowed in certain groups. The early MMOs were kind of a reflection of how kids who grew up with more freedom. The current crop feels like kids who grew up not really knowing what freedom was. I don't know which is better or worse. One seems to breed more creativity and determination while the other seems to have more responsibility and empathy.
You hit right on what I was getting at at the end, there. Would the current community accept what the old-schoolers pine for? I am hopefully doubtful of that.
As far as the generational gap in how we were raised, I am sure that has massive implications on what the new crop of gamers is going to want, enjoy and pay for. But to be completely honest, I have no idea what. I ran in a pack of wild kids who were tan from the sun by mid spring from being outside at every opportunity. I can't wrap my head around growing up in such a fearful, suspicious and controlled world. My world wasn't any less dangerous than today's world and it wasn't any less brutal. I was just raised with the knowledge that my choices and actions had consequences, and I was allowed to go out into the world and start living and learning from mistakes at a much earlier age than 18 when I got shipped off to college and tasted freedom for the first time. I live with a younger brother half my age who grew up in that different world and I still can't wrap my head around it.
I really hope that *insert game name here* will be the first game to ever live up to all of its pre-release promises, maintain a manageable hype level and have a clean release. Just don't expect me to hold my breath.
Gameplay is decisions. Specifically decisions related to the game rules.
So it's definitely non-gameplay if his only form of entertainment came from socializing, since that's effectively outside the game rules. Chat happens inside the game, but chat isn't the game.
Fighting mobs is gameplay, so depending on whether he did a lot or a little that would determine how much decision-making (gameplay) he actually experienced.
But most travel is effectively non-gameplay, because it involves virtually no decisions.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
You are the "GO GO GO" guy in groups aren't you?
Evidenced in this discussion is the very "gamerational" gap (TM) I began to talk about.
How does one define "play"? If you google for the definition, the first definition that comes up is as follows:
verb 1 - engage in activity for enjoyment and recreation rather than a serious or practical purpose.
So in this gamerational gap we have one group who wants to define what gameplay "is." The other group seems to understand that play, by its very definition, defies such defining.
Trying to impose a purely subjective view on anyone else, which is a fallacy, since it's purely subjective what is enjoyable and not serious to a person is what is happening here. We've got old-schoolers saying that exploration, socialization and the like are enjoyable distractions from their practical, serious real world lives. We have the new schoolers here saying they are going to define what gameplay is for everyone, and it isn't the aforementioned activities. It is sticking to the practical and serious system, as far as the "game rules" are concerned, which is hilariously the opposite of the definition of play. Half of the word gameplay.
And herein lies the struggle that developers have to grapple with. A HUGE disconnect in the MMORPG community about not only what an MMO should be, but we cannot even seem to agree on the core fundamental and philosophical foundations that such a game is BASED on.
To think, 10 years ago I gave serious consideration to becoming a game designer. I would have been an abysmal failure, as I would have never guessed that the definition of the word play would get turned inside out.
I really hope that *insert game name here* will be the first game to ever live up to all of its pre-release promises, maintain a manageable hype level and have a clean release. Just don't expect me to hold my breath.
This was so well said, and deserves to be quoted a few dozen times.
Considering the definition I think a lot of us are failing to play.
Theoretically since this is a game "waste of time" is irrelevant. By that definition any game is playing since none of them really serve a purpose in life other then to entertain. That is why IMO walking around a virtual world isn't a "waste of time" any more then jumping in, doing some quests quickly via GPS, and jumping out is a waste of time.
Personally I don't find exploring or traveling a "waste of time". You are viewing the great landscapes the developers put a lot of time in to create for you to travel through. It adds to the feeling that the world is really a large, unexplored, dangerous, place. Traveling is no more a "waste of time" then hiking for people in real life. Perhaps a lot of people today just don't truly understand wanderlust or adventure.
To me you can find a justification/reason for almost anything in a game. By the definition you posted a game is "not serious or practical". That basically means it is a "waste of time". Games never were a "waste of time" to me when I was a kid. They weren't a waste because I got a lot of enjoyment playing them. They allowed me to connect with other people in a way that was difficult for me to do in real life as a kid. They also made me forget my worries and my fears. I believe the opposite is true as an adult. Games often bring out my fears of wasting time. Perhaps that's why many people are so obsessed with not wasting time as a lot of adults are playing games. Unfortunately when you are obsessing over weather you are "wasting time" in a game you are already in a losing battle and might as well quit. The point of a game is to have fun "what ever that is for you". To me fun might include a large range of emotions "not just happiness".
I often wonder in part as you age what effect that has on gaming. I like to draw a comparison to the matrix. After a while you have stared at a game so long you no longer see environments and adventures. Now all you see is scripted code leading you around from place to place. At this point you have to ask yourself weather you can just relax and enjoy the journey (which is the main point IMO). My reasoning is often that the journey is lost because of responsibility. You have people too concerned about "wasting time" and not enough about just enjoying the game an what's there. This is what has led to things like fast travel and GPS. I understand why they are there because most adults don't have time to spend on games for enjoyment. They can only a lot a small amount of time and have to play it with that mindset. The problem is if you play with that mindset you can't really enjoy the journey. The journey requires time investment to an extent. It could be that I consider games a waste of time as I get older as well. I can't relax enough to truly enjoy the experience properly. I'd rather read a book or watch a documentary often times. When I'm playing all I can think of is "wasting time". Perhaps it is just a result of getting older or a result of the times where everyone is tense about getting jobs and surviving in general. There is no longer the luxury of wasting time for many people. To me you can't enjoy a game if you can't let of the fact that it isn't going to serve a purpose other then to have mindless fun in many cases. If you can't do that then perhaps it is indeed time to stop playing and find something else to do. It is what I have done in many cases even though I have loved games for a long time before I can remember.
If you queued for the dungeon, you came for the dungeon. There's no purpose to waiting around wasting time when you could be having fun.
As you play more games, you'll learn that most people play games for the gameplay.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
To be fair, it's a pretty big "most". Puzzle Pirates is one of very few games that makes travel have gameplay (because nearly all its gameplay is the act of traveling.)
I don't know of any MMORPG with significant travel gameplay. Avoiding mobs is a single raindrop in a desert.
The priest's extraordinary claims are not backed by appropriately extraordinary evidence, so we can discount his claims about the Bible as baseless (assuming he claims it's anything more than the most successful meme of all time.) It turns out our world works in understandable ways, and science and evidence can be used to predict future success. Which is why Blizzard's gameplay-focused MMORPG blew the timesink-focused MMORPGs out of the water, since they used evidence of what players liked from previous genres to prove out a theory that they'd prefer that sort of gameplay in their MMORPGs.
I don't limit my entertainment to MMOs alone. In fact usually I'm the only one in the room seeing the links between various forms of entertainment -- like how Tolkien didn't make us suffer through agonizing detail of the entire year-long journey in LOTR. He skipped to the interesting parts. Like MMORPGs with fast travel do.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I'm a firm believer that anyone who enjoys mmo's would love to see a world built for the players to create there own fun. A world full of surprises and intrigue given to us by developers for us to find. A place where we can gather our groups to climb a mountain to battle something believed to be undefeatable. The group should be trusted to do there part, and no matter how long it takes to accomplish the task. Not every time you log on you will find such a group, it would take knowing your server, having friends and Guilds. No fast travel, the group has to battle there way to the prize.
The people here on mmoprg.com that feel this is a time sync ARE NOT mmo players, they are something else. There people that like quick fast fun with others around them as props for unspoken dynamic events, dungeon finders and people looking for a free game to play. After all what better way to play a game for free than an mmo with F2P !....This type of player should have there own web site or mmoprg.com should separate " mmorpg's " from " games with others online ".............However sadly enough there are no longer mmorpg's. And the very few that are left sold there sole and went F2P.
Us mmoprg players need an mmo...........At least just one !
A really interesting perspective, as I find that most of the folks not "wasting time" in games tend to be of the newer breed as opposed to the old-schoolers. But that just goes to show that you while one can make broad generalizations about groups of people, they're always going to come up looking wrong as hell somewhere!
I feel that as the old-schoolers age into this mentality, they will probably forego MMOing, and sometimes even video gaming in general for other more fulfilling activities. As you have apparently started to with your documentary watching and such (you old coot!). I know that I go through stints myself where I don't even load an MMO or fire up my console for weeks at a time. This is a relatively new development in my progression as a gamer.
But one thing that hasn't changed for me personally is HOW I game when I game. I still want to play in that sandbox. I know damn well that my time spent on gaming is completely non-productive in terms of life, and I'm completely okay with it being non-productive in terms of game progression as well. If the experience is good, it can be reward enough. Finding a really hard to get to spot on a mountain somewhere to take some screenshots is just as much fun, if not more fun to me than banging out a bunch of levels or dungeons or dailies. Man I hate dailies.
That's not to say I don't go grind my ass off as well, at times. My time just doesn't always have to be "productive".
I really hope that *insert game name here* will be the first game to ever live up to all of its pre-release promises, maintain a manageable hype level and have a clean release. Just don't expect me to hold my breath.
Thanks for the nice read OP:)
The above quote is in my opinion very important, as it to some extent summarizes the difference in point of views. I still maintain my stand that gameplay can be found anywhere if the player knows where to look for (and in the ideal case, how to create it himself). Your example of that is in my opinion very good.
In modern games, players need more incentives, are used to guiding and as such Axe's view is common and feels right to most. The long term challenge still remains, how should mmorpgs tap that potential while making it feel immediate enough for players like Axe. In the meanwhile, well, you know. Diversification and so on.
I will wholeheartedly agree with your first paragraph!
As to the second, we're back to how we fundamentally define what terms like "MMO" and "Gameplay" and such. I know how I define them, but I don't believe in imposing those definitions on others who see it differently than I do. Their formative MMO experiences were different than mine, and so therefore are their expectations of them.
I can't say I don't LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE the idea of all of us like minded folks getting into an MMO that offers us the tools to play how we used to play. How we strive to play now, but always feel like we're coming up a little short.
I really hope that *insert game name here* will be the first game to ever live up to all of its pre-release promises, maintain a manageable hype level and have a clean release. Just don't expect me to hold my breath.
Im sure you can agree that you would like at least ONE mmo described in the first paragraph. Maybe FF11, however It's a little off beat for my taste.....One new one would be fine !
I was thinking one day these people who like the scripted content will realize how much money and time they wasted on it jumping from game to game. Then they will likely lump these games in with the wasted time older games are considered to be. Someone will come out with a new idea that is the ultimate fun experience. You will not have to play the game at all. You can do work and learn new things while the game plays for you. Either that or people will chalk games up as a waste of time in general and ban them from being played at all.
Perhaps one day people will realize that traveling around and seeing different things in game is no more a waste of time then anything else. JRR Tolkien actually describes his worlds in great detail and even though he cuts out a lot of the journey in his books there is still a lot of it there. If he added everything the books would be to large. They are already to large as it is IMO.
One of the things that makes humans is traveling and exploring. You see homo sapiens impact on the world and it is everywhere. We started as hunter gathers and have been traveling/exploring most of our lives. It's only recently that the world has been almost fully occupied with not as much to explore. That craving to explore/travel is still there IMO and it's ingrained into us. That's why I find it hard to imagine why people think following a scripted path quickly through a game is fun. Perhaps that wanderlust has been removed from society in general with how everyone is being watching, everything is visible (big brother's watching), and everything is so controlled. There is no room left for creativity or imagination like our ancestors have shown in the past.
Personally I think I would have trouble enjoying any type of game at this point just because I've played so many over the years, but that doesn't change my feelings that I don't like the direction games have gone and their tunnel vision in seeing how x mechanic in old games was used just to make more money, but of course there aren't mechanics being used in todays games to exploit people at all
Of course in reality that is the furthest thing from the truth.
Reading what you wrote OP you spent one hour creating your character, 3 hours wandering about and then 4 hours with your new friends. That is 8 hours you spent. I am not making any judgments or trying to pour cold water on your recollection but when I started playing Everquest I too spend an inordinate amount of time on it and when it almost ended my marriage I kind of woke up.
I do spend time playing if I can everyday but I have really cut down long sessions. Much maligned are games these days perhaps they should add a turn off quest markers and locations in the options to help people but they are there to a large extent because people want to spend less time looking for quests and locations. That sounds very unromantic but that is in a nutshell the reason for the changes.
I agree with flyte where he talks about guilt. I suffer from it especially because my son was younger then when I played Everquest and I think I neglected to speak more to him. He now of course plays games but those moments with him are lost forever because I did not leave Everquest long enough to spend more time talking to him. I was not as neglectful as those parents who have starved their kids while playing but I was neglectful.
I cannot go back to those days while I may think of my times in Everquest fondly well perhaps not the 36 hours trying to get my corpses from Fear I still love that game. It was the best time of my MMORPG life. I cannot however in good conscience ever play like that again. I know that people say you can get the same thing in smaller doses but you cannot. You needed to spend large chunks of time in those games to progress. If I left my spot on Sol B I cannot get it back because there is a queue and so you stay as long as you can. When you stay as long as you can other parts of your life suffer. This is the cold hard truth of the reality why games these days do not expect more than a couple of hours at a time from you.
We are forlorn and wistful because we cannot immerse ourselves like we could in the old games but we often forget the toll it took on other aspects of our lives. Yes we hope a happy medium can be attained and what we have these days the lobby games with slices of zones and experiences doled out to us in small sizes simply cannot answer the void in us.
I think the games these days have only been borne out of the need to allow us to enjoy this genre as a hobby and their inelegant solutions are jarring and we want better solutions and we hope times improve but seriously so many of you come on these boards and start threads about the good old days and wax poetic about them do not give the current games enough of a chance. Granted some of them are bad but you need to try them harder and try to like them better because they allow you to also do other things in life.
Go back and try the games that are available now and approach them differently. I enjoy them and although I can never get back the magic of Everquest I have found some enjoyment in SWTOR,FFXIV ARR,ESO yes even Wildstar and I think TSW is rather unique. As long as you grouse and never try to find some merit in what is out there currently you will never be able to move on. I see the usual suspects starting threads about how sad they are that they cannot find anything they can like and in my opinion as long as they continue along this path no game will ever be able to satisfy them even moderately because nothing can compete with your memory.
WoW Chey, that story had great impact on me....Your right !
The only thing I wish is that games were not so carrot-on-a-stick handholding, dynamic, and F2P to the point that their not community.
I can't disagree with you on either point. I just not sure that games are worth playing in the way they are played now. I agree it's more important to take care of things in real life, but luckily I wasn't involved in anything when I was playing games like Ultima Online, Everquest, and World of Warcraft. This allowed me to have fun without worrying if I was neglecting much of anything. Perhaps that's why games are for kids and not for adults. Adults have to much to worry about in real life most of the time. I still wouldn't trade my experience in any of those games. It was a really good time. If I had a son, daughter, or wife I might feel differently. If I was around 16 to 25 years old I would probably do it all over again, but since I'm older I doubt I would sink a lot of time into any game. I still think it's a fun experience if you are young and have the time to spend. Much better then what you get from the scripted content now. I'm not certain that even kids have time to truly sink the proper amount of required time into games now to truly enjoy them properly. They are all going to soccer practice, band practice, play group, or whatever activity their parents put them in.
I was in my early 40's when I first played MMOs, with 3 children and plated MMOs like I did single player games, in small bursts when I had free time. I did get a bit carried away with longer vanilla WOW raiding, but it was mostly my sleep that suffered, not my family.
My son was 8 when I first played Lineage 1, and we played side by side for many years until playing with his friends, jobs, girlfriends became more important. (I always insisted on a strong emphasis on his school work first, which he always kept up on)
While it certainly grated on me at times, those long raids you mention were never for me. Once in my life I waited 8 hours for a boss spawn (never again), and once my son and I did a 9 hour WOW session and agreed we felt ill afterwards and never repeated it.
My point is, I learned to take from those early games only what I had time for, and skip the rest leaving it to those who had the time and desire to do it. Problem with today's MMOs is they have largely eliminated all longer term content, leaving nothing for those who still can enjoy it. (Which stinks as now my children have all grown up and I actually have more time for some of it)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If you're a "oldschool" gamer I suspect your playstyle has changed allot?
While ESO is nothing like a oldschoolgame it definitly doesn't have to be played that linear as delete5230 makes it out to be. Atleast in my opinion.
Also in older MMORPG's we had area's/worlds/planets that were above your level/skill. And like ESO you where still able to explore but obvious not able to do much more except some harvesting.
Making friends doesn't really matter if it's a 3k server or megaserver. Multible way's to connect to them. Not really sure what your issue is on this.
Regardless if a game is linear or more open some players like to be guilded no matter what. Overcome challenges together, create their own challenges.
While I don't like the direction this genre has gone into I feel I am still that old school player, I still find my own niche even in those so-called linear games.
OP: Really enjoyed your post...brought back some great memories..
Look we know you are an avid defender of Eso but the game is as linear as he describes it. Are you telling me that from level one I can go to any top level area without doing a single quest?You also seem to miss the point of the adventure of making things happen on your own. In SWG the origin of the term themepark you were given the choice and quest were something you did by choice. Much of the magic of old MMORPG's was not knowing. It was doing what you wanted. In EQ I leveled up a Qeynos character in Freeport because I wanted to make the journey which was dangerous and fun as a low level. Today's MMORPG's everyone levels in the same spots. In UO I robbed people at the crossroads of Vesper and fought massive wars between PK's and anti-PKs. In AC I wandered the huge map just to see what was there and died hours out to some flame spitting rat after trying to out run it.
Questing is overdone. Gameplay, the world, the genre are tied to questing. It was novel with WoW but its been 10 years and its old. There is a such thing as too much of a good thing. Most players given the option would skip all questing and be instant max levels. Most MMORPG's are essentially bad Bioware RPGs. It has even effected my single player RPG experience because I don't have much patients to hear the story anymore.
And we wonder why developers "just do not get it..."
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Belief doesn't change reality.
Modern MMORPG players are the only ones playing MMORPGs. Believing that they aren't MMORPG players doesn't change that.
Modern MMORPGs are basically the only type being made. Believing they aren't MMORPGs doesn't change the fact that they are MMORPGs.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver