I almost always agree with tanist (who are you on the pantheon forum?)
I gave VR a little bit of money but the game they have been making recently is not the game that was advertised when I donated. I doubt I'll play it long term if it does release.
Back on topic, I only pay for pure subscription games. As soon as they go free to play or have a cash shop they dont get a cent from me. That seems to be the general consensus of many others on the Pantheon forum as well. All players being on a level playing field where you can't buy benefits and your merits are based on your skill and time invested is very important.
I will never "play" a non-subscription game long term. I have quit multiple games when they switched from subscription to free to play. When that happens other issues arise as well. Not only does the skill lvl of the average gamer go way way down in a free to play setting but the community goes into the toilet as well. In my experience the community becomes much more immature and toxic in a ftp environment.
Tanix is my name on the Pantheon site, but I was banned. My discussions were civil
LOL oh... ya, you definitely weren't civil. I didn't know you were banned but you probably deserved it.
I think the conversations we had that I disagreed with you about stemmed from your lack of raiding experience but I know you argued with a ton of people.
I was civil, but then by your response my guess is that you think "uncivil" is pointing out flaws in peoples arguments (I was actually told it was an attack to point out that someone was wrong in their logic, even if I was right). I was called a "man splainer" and was attacked continuously by those who had hate for me because they disagreed (their hate showed in their demeanor and approach to discussion)
Lack of raiding experience?
Really?
I was the raid leader for my guild Silent avengers, and Legendary 12 all the way up through PoP, we did most of the content, up, but not including the last of PoP (I quit shortly after).
I also led numerous raids in other games. So you seem to be making unfounded accusations.
By the way, what is your name? I think it only proper that I told you mine?
I was however attacked by numerous people, including Kilsin who had to make up claims of my banning. He claimed I violated forum polices he could not back up with his EULA. For instance, he claimed that a violation was to "argue with the moderator" and went on to give me an infraction. I pointed out in the rules that it isn't having a disagreement with the moderator which is a violation, but as per the rules, doing it in public, which I had never done. He also had a habit of trying to claim a violation of the forum policy was that I upset others, even though I did not break any particular policy. Fact is, Kilsin is not a very experienced moderator and did not even know his own forum policies. /shrug
I was also trolled continuously by those who would get upset about anything I said, then attack me personally (calling me names, insulting, reporting constantly) and if If I let slip even a slight insult (I am only human, and my insults were nowhere near the level of those lobbed at me), no matter if it was indirectly mentioned (ie attacking a concept of thought or behavior), I was immediately spoken to by Kilsin for "violating" the forum polices, and disrupting the "community".
The above is EXACTLY how I would discuss, now I may attack an idea, or point out an illogical position, or properly assess a persons positions (ie saying a persons argument was mainstream when they argued for fast travel, low death penalties, in game maps/mini-maps, etc...), but I did not make a habit of attacking people and dismissing without proper evidence or reason (as they often did to me).
So, you can dismiss me all you like, but I think by your immediate change in discussion demeanor makes it obvious that you have a bias (though I would love to know who you are, if you are adult enough to tell us all?).
There are several who were banned from VR's site, no doubt because they were very bad people, you know... who did not "conform" to the "community" or asked too many questions on issues, or challenged the demand for mainstream design direction.
I wouldn't be surprised if my paying for a copy was "lost" when the game comes out (if it releases in the next 5 years). As I said, I felt Kilsin's behavior as a moderator was unprofessional.
Though I am sure VR will complain about this post and have it removed. /shrug
It seems to be the standard for most forums these days.
There are a lot of people that complain constantly on the forum that aren't banned. Maybe figure out what you are doing differently and make adjustments for the future.
You were banned. It is obvious you are angry about it. My recommendation is you move on...or just keep on being angry. What's done is done.
MMOs have always been designed with deliberate inconveniences included to either keep you subbing longer or get you to buy relief in the cash shop.
Sub games did it with artificially slow leveling and late game gear grinding treadmills to keep you around until the next expansion.
Cash shop games do it with inadequate inventory, also slow XP with XP boosts for sale and removing all the best cosmetics from the games and putting them in cash shops or loot boxes. Some even go into offricially sanctioned P2W territory although that has always been around for those willing to deal with dodgy third party gold and item sales sites. F2P games also push the crap out of cosmetics and over-develop that side of things often neglecting core game play.
They're all imperfect systems designed to get more money from you but when all is said and done, I much prefer the simpler and less intrusive monetization that a sub only game has.
You can call me the anti-Theocritous
Risk vs Reward is a standard of game play. RMT shops taint that development focus. Before cash shops, games were designed to test the player in a manner befitting of a us vs them concept (ie the developers job was to design a game to beat the player in a manner of speaking).
Now granted, EQ ran into the power guild problem of players who basically "lived" the game (hardcore by an actual standard, people who had the time to play 24/7) and so consumed content at a very fast pace, so developers would put in near impossible encounters (some would claim impossible on purpose to bide time). In those cases, Verant was wrong, you can't keep up with locusts.
RMT however changes design focus. That is, risk vs reward no longer drives the development, rather the need to push people to the store does. Early Asian MMOs were notorious for mundane grinds (not a surprise, JRPGs are nothing by grind for hours for money to buy gear in the in-game stores) and this model worked well for RMT. Make the grind mundane and boring so people will get bored and just buy their progression.
RMT is nothing more than providing cheats to players and since it makes real money for the company, design of the game centers around it, which is why many will leave a game that goes RMT (aside from the fact that what purpose is there to trying to earn in a game when others can buy with a press of a button?).
A sub game only requires that you keep playing. That is a better test. IF they use gimmicks and cheats to try and stall the player, they lose the players. So it is in their best interest to keep content meaningful and regular for the player. If they make too easy, people will stop subbing, if they make it far too hard (ie improper risk vs reward balance like grinder MMOs), people will stop subbing. They need to keep a constant stream of meaningful content, and that means not providing cheats where game play is invalidated (ie players can buy progression).
RMT while being quite successful in making money, is not and has never been good for gaming. It serves the human nature of people who wish to find an easy way to overcome an obstacle. People love to cheat, they love the feeling of getting ahead without putting much effort. That however becomes pointless if everyone can easily obtain the result, which is why RMTs become the play ground for the inept and bored.
There are a lot of people that complain constantly on the forum that aren't banned. Maybe figure out what you are doing differently and make adjustments for the future.
You were banned. It is obvious you are angry about it. My recommendation is you move on...or just keep on being angry. What's done is done.
Angry? Can you point to my comment where I am angry? Or are you now injecting intent to better serve your argument?
My issue was not complaining, it was pointing out invalid arguments, much like you are making right now by lobbing accusations of intent.
I also notice you again did not provide your name. Funny how I am being honest in my discussion and you continue to hide behind your anonymity?
Who are you? Or again... are you content to hide and then lob accusations of intent with no valid means of establishing your position?
People can go read my discussions (well, those that Kilsin didn't outright delete) and see the commentary there.
Can we read yours? Maybe?
Edit:
Oh and just to show you I am not hiding and my discussions were civil to any sane reasonable person.
Time to move on man. You don't get banned for no reason...and not worth anymore of my time.
Why would I get banned?
Have I attacked you? Did I call you names?
Last I checked, you were the one making assumptions about my intent, about my state of mind. You were also the one who made accusations about content we were discussing, but refuse to validate it.
You asked my forum name, which I provided, I asked yours? Yet you again evade. Afraid the truth will be known about you?
So again, are you going to give us your forum name in Pantheon?
If no, fine... but note you are the one who is lacking in the discussion here and nothing you say has any validity because you refuse to establish your claims.
Or...
Maybe you can go complain to the mods here, accuse me of something? Hmmm... where have I seen that before... I wonder.
Like I said, you got nothing. Every response from you will now be an evasion because you were called out for accusations you could not provide evidence to.
Also, these are discussion boards, not argument boards or high school debate boards. If I want elves to have long ears, I don't have to prove it. I can just say that's my preference.
Getting in everyone's grill about everything, demanding proof and claiming a lack of logic is annoying behavior, and regularly annoying other people can draw a ban.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Also, these are discussion boards, not argument boards or high school debate boards. If I want elves to have long ears, I don't have to prove it. I can just say that's my preference.
Getting in everyone's grill about everything, demanding proof and claiming a lack of logic is annoying behavior, and regularly annoying other people can draw a ban.
I was discussing, quite civil to be honest. Then I was accused, claimed I deserved the ban, claimed I didn't know raiding, and then accused of being angry to imply I was irrational.
Is that not an attack?
If you accuse me of those things, yes.. you do need to prove it, especially when you claim personal experience to make such an accusation (ie his claim that I was uncivil on the pantheon forums, etc..)
Or are you going to say it is perfectly acceptable to make such an accusation and provide no evidence of it?
Edit:
Oh and as for forum policies...
disregard that, it was from the wrong site. To be honest I am having a bit of difficulty even finding the terms on this site.
Yep, can't find anything on a ToS for this site, which is odd.. Either I am blind (a possibility) or they don't have one (or it is not very easy to find).
Also, these are discussion boards, not argument boards or high school debate boards. If I want elves to have long ears, I don't have to prove it. I can just say that's my preference.
Getting in everyone's grill about everything, demanding proof and claiming a lack of logic is annoying behavior, and regularly annoying other people can draw a ban.
I was discussing, quite civil to be honest. Then I was accused, claimed I deserved the ban, claimed I didn't know raiding, and then accused of being angry to imply I was irrational.
Is that not an attack?
If you accuse me of those things, yes.. you do need to prove it, especially when you claim personal experience to make such an accusation (ie his claim that I was uncivil on the pantheon forums, etc..)
Or are you going to say it is perfectly acceptable to make such an accusation and provide no evidence of it?
Edit:
Oh and as for forum policies...
disregard that, it was from the wrong site. To be honest I am having a bit of difficulty even finding the terms on this site.
Yep, can't find anything on a ToS for this site, which is odd.. Either I am blind (a possibility) or they don't have one (or it is not very easy to find).
lol nothing riles the feathers more than the f2p hatred on these boards.... how about this? Take a f2p game, but tell the company that you demand to pay $15 a month and get nothing in return because then you feel their game will be better and the problem is solved right?
What if players could earn subscriptions based on how well they play the game?
1. The most skilled players (mechanically-speaking)
2. The best teachers/guides/mentors
3. The best role-players
What if there were certain things that players could achieve in the game that would earn them a month's paid subscription.
Or what if the very top tier of players in the above categories could actually paid to play?
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
lol nothing riles the feathers more than the f2p hatred on these boards.... how about this? Take a f2p game, but tell the company that you demand to pay $15 a month and get nothing in return because then you feel their game will be better and the problem is solved right?
Actually most people would expect to get a game that is not built around trying to milk all the money they can out of you in a cash shop.
They also would expect no in game cash shop at all and all the content of the game for the monthly fee.
A game that is designed from the start as a FTP game would need an extensive redesign to go the monthly fee route.
lol nothing riles the feathers more than the f2p hatred on these boards.... how about this? Take a f2p game, but tell the company that you demand to pay $15 a month and get nothing in return because then you feel their game will be better and the problem is solved right?
Actually most people would expect to get a game that is not built around trying to milk all the money they can out of you in a cash shop.
They also would expect no in game cash shop at all and all the content of the game for the monthly fee.
A game that is designed from the start as a FTP game would need an extensive redesign to go the monthly fee route.
A monthly fee without a cash shop (or at least w/out one in which you can't pay for in-game advantages) is the best model.
But there are ways to make a F2P game without making it a P2W super-ultra greedy cash grab.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
lol nothing riles the feathers more than the f2p hatred on these boards.... how about this? Take a f2p game, but tell the company that you demand to pay $15 a month and get nothing in return because then you feel their game will be better and the problem is solved right?
Actually most people would expect to get a game that is not built around trying to milk all the money they can out of you in a cash shop.
They also would expect no in game cash shop at all and all the content of the game for the monthly fee.
A game that is designed from the start as a FTP game would need an extensive redesign to go the monthly fee route.
A monthly fee without a cash shop (or at least w/out one in which you can't pay for in-game advantages) is the best model.
But there are ways to make a F2P game without making it a P2W super-ultra greedy cash grab.
It's hard. I mean there's a huge majority of gamers who want to play for free and not spend a dime. I get it, no one wants to spend money. But it's hard to show sympathy to a group that wants the best gaming experience without spending money. And I'm not talking about $5 here and there. MMOs require a great deal of money to maintain and expand. They need players to consistently spend money; most F2P players can't or won't do it.
Companies don't cater to whales because they want to; they do it to survive in a F2P setting. They need the 10% or 1% who will spend thousand of dollars a month to keep the servers running and pay for the programmers to design new stuff.
I have a friend who translated games to English. They absolutely know who cheats. But they let it slide unless it goes too far. And even if they do police it the player just gets a slap on the wrist. Why? Are you going to ban a player dropping $10K a month? They won't and the player knows it.
And they also design the game so that the whales do get a competitive advantage. You are absolutely buying power and in some ways necessary for the game to survive.
It's why I dislike F2P models. B2P is only slightly better. I prefer a sub not because I want to spend money. I like it because it makes you decide to support a game you like with sacrifice (money). It's not lip service. It's the truest measure of showing if you love the game or not.
Here's some of my thoughts. Let me know if you agree/disagree or if you think I'm right or wrong.
P2W CASH SHOPS - F2P games should be "Pay to progress faster/more
quickly" rather than P2W or "Pay to succeed in less than 10 years".
People that work already pay. Why? Because they have less time to
invest in playing. Plus they often have families that require at least
some of their free time in order to maintain (w/out getting divorced or
w/e). Some people who play online games even do other things besides
play games in their free time. Regardless of whether they work or not.
Only independently wealthy people can usually afford to pay and play
for 8-18 hours a day.
Free players pay by
investing more time and energy into a game than paying players do. They
also perform a service by helping to provide content for those that do
pay. In many MMORPGs, paying players might often have trouble finding
players to group with if it weren't for free players. Games with PVP
might find it hard to get enough people to play a match if it weren't
for free players. Only the most popular MMORPGs with the highest
populations don't have these problems. Or usually don't have these
problems.
However, I found that queuing for
dungeons/multi-player content in FFXIV could sometimes involve long
waiting periods. Especially for DPS roles.
The
question is, do developers want people to play their games or not? If
they want high populations, they need the free players. Do they want to
encourage the free players to keep playing, or do they want the free
players to move on to any other of the numerous F2P games available?
Also,
people that do pay get sick and tired of aggressive marketing practices
and designs that are clearly put in place for no other reason than to
demand that they pay or demand that they pay more. Players aren't
stupid. Well, at least not all players are stupid.
Games
do need to make money. This is true. However, there's a difference
between good business practices and designs that will encourage people
to pay in order to support one's product/company and bad business
practices and designs that will encourage people to spend their money
elsewhere.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
In theory there's some truth to to what you say but I am a cynic and in reality I don't think it works.
If you are F2P, you will design your game to be a grind. It's to incentivize spending real cash to level faster (your idea). Now all MMOs have a grind but F2P and Subs have different reasons. Subs create a grind to slow down consumption so it gives the developers time to build. F2P creates a grind to encourage spending money. I think that's a big philosophical difference when building a game.
And F2P creates a schism between paying players and non-paying players. I mean just look at this forum. People who want subs have a certain disdain for those who won't spend money on games (in various degrees).
Inherently, I think people are generally selfish creatures. There will be plenty of paying customers who may feel a bit frustrated that even though they are supporting the game, there will be those who don't spend money that will outperform them. This attitude is why F2P have whales. The whales want to dominate and are willing to spend to do so. And the games are designed to prevent "freeloaders" to achieve equivalent power without an almost unnatural dedication.
In theory there's some truth to to what you say but I am a cynic and in reality I don't think it works.
If you are F2P, you will design your game to be a grind. It's to incentivize spending real cash to level faster (your idea). Now all MMOs have a grind but F2P and Subs have different reasons. Subs create a grind to slow down consumption so it gives the developers time to build. F2P creates a grind to encourage spending money. I think that's a big philosophical difference when building a game.
And F2P creates a schism between paying players and non-paying players. I mean just look at this forum. People who want subs have a certain disdain for those who won't spend money on games (in various degrees).
Inherently, I think people are generally selfish creatures. There will be plenty of paying customers who may feel a bit frustrated that even though they are supporting the game, there will be those who don't spend money that will outperform them. This attitude is why F2P have whales. The whales want to dominate and are willing to spend to do so. And the games are designed to prevent "freeloaders" to achieve equivalent power without an almost unnatural dedication.
Yes. I agree that people are selfish (and prideful) in general. Their own needs, wants, and desires come first and they enjoy feeling like they are better than/superior to others.
Still, the apparent mindset of some of these whales seems strange to me. When I play games, I only feel good about winning or achieving something if I know that I did so based on my skill at playing the game. How do people feel good about themselves while knowing that the amount of money they spent is the principal factor in their successes or achievements? I don't understand it.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
In theory there's some truth to to what you say but I am a cynic and in reality I don't think it works.
If you are F2P, you will design your game to be a grind. It's to incentivize spending real cash to level faster (your idea). Now all MMOs have a grind but F2P and Subs have different reasons. Subs create a grind to slow down consumption so it gives the developers time to build. F2P creates a grind to encourage spending money. I think that's a big philosophical difference when building a game.
And F2P creates a schism between paying players and non-paying players. I mean just look at this forum. People who want subs have a certain disdain for those who won't spend money on games (in various degrees).
Inherently, I think people are generally selfish creatures. There will be plenty of paying customers who may feel a bit frustrated that even though they are supporting the game, there will be those who don't spend money that will outperform them. This attitude is why F2P have whales. The whales want to dominate and are willing to spend to do so. And the games are designed to prevent "freeloaders" to achieve equivalent power without an almost unnatural dedication.
Yes. I agree that people are selfish (and prideful) in general. Their own needs, wants, and desires come first and they enjoy feeling like they are better/superior to others.
Still, the apparent mindset of some of these whales seems strange to me. When I play games, I only feel good about winning or achieving something if I know that I did so based on my skill at playing the game. How do people feel good about themselves while knowing that the amount of money they spent is the principal factor in their successes or achievements? I don't understand it.
I don't fully understand it either. Maybe there is some insecurity. Maybe they are both skillful and rich and don't want to waste time dealing with plebs? But I'll try to dig into some minds.
Who's to say they haven't achieved in the game? It's sorta a meta-achievement. Money in a sense is an achievement. If you got tons of it, why not flaunt it or use it to your advantage? Perhaps achievement is achievement no matter how you gain it.
I mean let's say the average player was filthy rich. I would venture to guess that many would spend money to buy power. Why? Because they can.
In theory there's some truth to to what you say but I am a cynic and in reality I don't think it works.
If you are F2P, you will design your game to be a grind. It's to incentivize spending real cash to level faster (your idea). Now all MMOs have a grind but F2P and Subs have different reasons. Subs create a grind to slow down consumption so it gives the developers time to build. F2P creates a grind to encourage spending money. I think that's a big philosophical difference when building a game.
And F2P creates a schism between paying players and non-paying players. I mean just look at this forum. People who want subs have a certain disdain for those who won't spend money on games (in various degrees).
Inherently, I think people are generally selfish creatures. There will be plenty of paying customers who may feel a bit frustrated that even though they are supporting the game, there will be those who don't spend money that will outperform them. This attitude is why F2P have whales. The whales want to dominate and are willing to spend to do so. And the games are designed to prevent "freeloaders" to achieve equivalent power without an almost unnatural dedication.
Yes. I agree that people are selfish (and prideful) in general. Their own needs, wants, and desires come first and they enjoy feeling like they are better/superior to others.
Still, the apparent mindset of some of these whales seems strange to me. When I play games, I only feel good about winning or achieving something if I know that I did so based on my skill at playing the game. How do people feel good about themselves while knowing that the amount of money they spent is the principal factor in their successes or achievements? I don't understand it.
I don't fully understand it either. Maybe there is some insecurity. Maybe they are both skillful and rich and don't want to waste time dealing with plebs? But I'll try to dig into some minds.
Who's to say they haven't achieved in the game? It's sorta a meta-achievement. Money in a sense is an achievement. If you got tons of it, why not flaunt it or use it to your advantage? Perhaps achievement is achievement no matter how you gain it.
I mean let's say the average player was filthy rich. I would venture to guess that many would spend money to buy power. Why? Because they can.
Not me. If power in a game is solely based on how much money one spends, it's not worth playing. It's not even a game at that point.
Also, what about time investment? Let's say the paying player plays 2-4 hours a day (or less, because he or she is working most likely). Whereas the free player plays 8-12 hours a day or more. Shouldn't the player who basically devotes his or her life to the game get some benefit to that. Money can be gained or lost, but time can only be lost/spent.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
In theory there's some truth to to what you say but I am a cynic and in reality I don't think it works.
If you are F2P, you will design your game to be a grind. It's to incentivize spending real cash to level faster (your idea). Now all MMOs have a grind but F2P and Subs have different reasons. Subs create a grind to slow down consumption so it gives the developers time to build. F2P creates a grind to encourage spending money. I think that's a big philosophical difference when building a game.
And F2P creates a schism between paying players and non-paying players. I mean just look at this forum. People who want subs have a certain disdain for those who won't spend money on games (in various degrees).
Inherently, I think people are generally selfish creatures. There will be plenty of paying customers who may feel a bit frustrated that even though they are supporting the game, there will be those who don't spend money that will outperform them. This attitude is why F2P have whales. The whales want to dominate and are willing to spend to do so. And the games are designed to prevent "freeloaders" to achieve equivalent power without an almost unnatural dedication.
Yes. I agree that people are selfish (and prideful) in general. Their own needs, wants, and desires come first and they enjoy feeling like they are better/superior to others.
Still, the apparent mindset of some of these whales seems strange to me. When I play games, I only feel good about winning or achieving something if I know that I did so based on my skill at playing the game. How do people feel good about themselves while knowing that the amount of money they spent is the principal factor in their successes or achievements? I don't understand it.
I don't fully understand it either. Maybe there is some insecurity. Maybe they are both skillful and rich and don't want to waste time dealing with plebs? But I'll try to dig into some minds.
Who's to say they haven't achieved in the game? It's sorta a meta-achievement. Money in a sense is an achievement. If you got tons of it, why not flaunt it or use it to your advantage? Perhaps achievement is achievement no matter how you gain it.
I mean let's say the average player was filthy rich. I would venture to guess that many would spend money to buy power. Why? Because they can.
Not me. If power in a game is solely based on how much money one spends, it's not worth playing. It's not even a game at that point.
Also, what about time investment? Let's say the paying player plays 2-4 hours a day (or less, because he or she is working most likely). Whereas the free player plays 8-12 hours a day or more. Shouldn't the player who basically devotes his or her life to the game get some benefit to that. Money can be gained or lost, but time can only be lost/spent.
That's the thing though. Not everyone thinks like you which is why we have whales. The game is acquisition of power, one way or another.
I mean, even if a busy person could get xp boosts, they will most likely never reach the heights of those who play the game like a job. They will be always fall behind in gear and skill level. So shouldn't a player get better stuff by supporting the company with REAL money so the company can continue to exist? If anything the guy playing for free should be grateful that the rich guy is keeping his favorite game afloat.
Again, I don't like F2P and just playing devil's advocate.
In theory there's some truth to to what you say but I am a cynic and in reality I don't think it works.
If you are F2P, you will design your game to be a grind. It's to incentivize spending real cash to level faster (your idea). Now all MMOs have a grind but F2P and Subs have different reasons. Subs create a grind to slow down consumption so it gives the developers time to build. F2P creates a grind to encourage spending money. I think that's a big philosophical difference when building a game.
And F2P creates a schism between paying players and non-paying players. I mean just look at this forum. People who want subs have a certain disdain for those who won't spend money on games (in various degrees).
Inherently, I think people are generally selfish creatures. There will be plenty of paying customers who may feel a bit frustrated that even though they are supporting the game, there will be those who don't spend money that will outperform them. This attitude is why F2P have whales. The whales want to dominate and are willing to spend to do so. And the games are designed to prevent "freeloaders" to achieve equivalent power without an almost unnatural dedication.
Yes. I agree that people are selfish (and prideful) in general. Their own needs, wants, and desires come first and they enjoy feeling like they are better/superior to others.
Still, the apparent mindset of some of these whales seems strange to me. When I play games, I only feel good about winning or achieving something if I know that I did so based on my skill at playing the game. How do people feel good about themselves while knowing that the amount of money they spent is the principal factor in their successes or achievements? I don't understand it.
I don't fully understand it either. Maybe there is some insecurity. Maybe they are both skillful and rich and don't want to waste time dealing with plebs? But I'll try to dig into some minds.
Who's to say they haven't achieved in the game? It's sorta a meta-achievement. Money in a sense is an achievement. If you got tons of it, why not flaunt it or use it to your advantage? Perhaps achievement is achievement no matter how you gain it.
I mean let's say the average player was filthy rich. I would venture to guess that many would spend money to buy power. Why? Because they can.
Not me. If power in a game is solely based on how much money one spends, it's not worth playing. It's not even a game at that point.
Also, what about time investment? Let's say the paying player plays 2-4 hours a day (or less, because he or she is working most likely). Whereas the free player plays 8-12 hours a day or more. Shouldn't the player who basically devotes his or her life to the game get some benefit to that. Money can be gained or lost, but time can only be lost/spent.
That's the thing though. Not everyone thinks like you which is why we have whales. The game is acquisition of power, one way or another.
I mean, even if a busy person could get xp boosts, they will most likely never reach the heights of those who play the game like a job. They will be always fall behind in gear and skill level. So shouldn't a player get better stuff by supporting the company with REAL money so the company can continue to exist? If anything the guy playing for free should be grateful that the rich guy is keeping his favorite game afloat.
Again, I don't like F2P and just playing devil's advocate.
Why can't the paying player just pay so that he keeps up (and is equal) with those who play the game like a job? Why must the paying player be superior to those who dedicate so much time and energy to playing (which will often entail a lot of grinding)?
Also, most of these games, the way they are designed now, are mostly about the personal acquisition of wealth and power. If a player is able to pay to reach the very top tier of wealth and power, what else is there left to do? A sane person can only play the most difficult PVE content and crush most other players in PVP a limited number of times until it gets boring. I would think.
Free players aren't grateful that they can't ever match big spenders or whales. Free players eventually get frustrated and quit. And then, in the end, the game will have a a relatively small population of whales/big spenders and noobs who don't know any better. As well as perhaps those few moderate to light spenders and free players who played continuously since the game's release. And thus might be able to challenge the dominance of the whales somewhat.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
In theory there's some truth to to what you say but I am a cynic and in reality I don't think it works.
If you are F2P, you will design your game to be a grind. It's to incentivize spending real cash to level faster (your idea). Now all MMOs have a grind but F2P and Subs have different reasons. Subs create a grind to slow down consumption so it gives the developers time to build. F2P creates a grind to encourage spending money. I think that's a big philosophical difference when building a game.
And F2P creates a schism between paying players and non-paying players. I mean just look at this forum. People who want subs have a certain disdain for those who won't spend money on games (in various degrees).
Inherently, I think people are generally selfish creatures. There will be plenty of paying customers who may feel a bit frustrated that even though they are supporting the game, there will be those who don't spend money that will outperform them. This attitude is why F2P have whales. The whales want to dominate and are willing to spend to do so. And the games are designed to prevent "freeloaders" to achieve equivalent power without an almost unnatural dedication.
Yes. I agree that people are selfish (and prideful) in general. Their own needs, wants, and desires come first and they enjoy feeling like they are better/superior to others.
Still, the apparent mindset of some of these whales seems strange to me. When I play games, I only feel good about winning or achieving something if I know that I did so based on my skill at playing the game. How do people feel good about themselves while knowing that the amount of money they spent is the principal factor in their successes or achievements? I don't understand it.
I don't fully understand it either. Maybe there is some insecurity. Maybe they are both skillful and rich and don't want to waste time dealing with plebs? But I'll try to dig into some minds.
Who's to say they haven't achieved in the game? It's sorta a meta-achievement. Money in a sense is an achievement. If you got tons of it, why not flaunt it or use it to your advantage? Perhaps achievement is achievement no matter how you gain it.
I mean let's say the average player was filthy rich. I would venture to guess that many would spend money to buy power. Why? Because they can.
Not me. If power in a game is solely based on how much money one spends, it's not worth playing. It's not even a game at that point.
Also, what about time investment? Let's say the paying player plays 2-4 hours a day (or less, because he or she is working most likely). Whereas the free player plays 8-12 hours a day or more. Shouldn't the player who basically devotes his or her life to the game get some benefit to that. Money can be gained or lost, but time can only be lost/spent.
That's the thing though. Not everyone thinks like you which is why we have whales. The game is acquisition of power, one way or another.
I mean, even if a busy person could get xp boosts, they will most likely never reach the heights of those who play the game like a job. They will be always fall behind in gear and skill level. So shouldn't a player get better stuff by supporting the company with REAL money so the company can continue to exist? If anything the guy playing for free should be grateful that the rich guy is keeping his favorite game afloat.
Again, I don't like F2P and just playing devil's advocate.
Why can't the paying player just pay so that he keeps up (and is equal) with those who play the game like a job? Why must the paying player be superior to those who dedicate so much time and energy to playing (which will often entail a lot of grinding)?
Also, most of these games, the way they are designed now, are mostly about the personal acquisition of wealth and power. If a player is able to pay to reach the very top tier of wealth and power, what else is there left to do? A sane person can only play the most difficult PVE content and crush most other players in PVP a limited number of times until it gets boring. I would think.
Free players aren't grateful that they can't ever match big spenders or whales. Free players eventually get frustrated and quit. And then, in the end, the game will have a a relatively small population of whales/big spenders and noobs who don't know any better. As well as perhaps those few moderate to light spenders and free players who played continuously since the game's release. And thus might be able to challenge the dominance of the whales somewhat.
Your last paragraph just described the vast majority of F2P games over time. I'm sure developers have thought of other ways but it seems to draw the same end result.
Maybe ESO has the right idea. Make the game F2P but so annoying that if you truly love the game, you pay a sub. Perhaps the best of both worlds?
Is ESO F2P? I thought is was B2P, but players can choose to play without a sub or buying DLCs thereafter if they wish.
It's
also a value judgement. Is the money of those who pay worth more than
the time of those who don't pay? Those who don't pay usually live
meager lives compared to those who are able to pay. (And some of those
who pay a little have to beg or borrow it from others. Kids/teenagers
and the chronically unemployed or underemployed.) The free players
probably live with a family member or friend and may or may not own a
car. Certainly won't own a new car. They won't own many new clothes
and they may just be fortunate enough to own or be able to use a
computer capable of playing the game. Most likely not on the highest
settings.
Yes, these people can be
faulted for not making the best decisions in their lives or not doing
their absolute best to change their circumstances, true. But some of
them have mental/emotional issues, are chronically depressed, or are
perhaps recovering addicts or alcoholics. It's also very difficult for
someone to find a job who hasn't worked recently. Many businesses would
rather hire young people or immigrants than an older citizen.
Especially one who has been out of work for too long or who doesn't have
the best job history. Or those with checkered pasts. Such as those
who have a criminal record.
Anyway, why
can't those kinds of people who choose to play F2P games be given an
opportunity to excel? Why must they always be treated like black sheep
regardless of their intelligence, skill, attitude, and/or personality?
Some of them might keep others playing and even motivate others to pay
to play. If they really enjoy the game and feel like the time they
spend playing is worth the effort.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
Comments
There are a lot of people that complain constantly on the forum that aren't banned. Maybe figure out what you are doing differently and make adjustments for the future.
You were banned. It is obvious you are angry about it. My recommendation is you move on...or just keep on being angry. What's done is done.
Getting in everyone's grill about everything, demanding proof and claiming a lack of logic is annoying behavior, and regularly annoying other people can draw a ban.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Companies don't cater to whales because they want to; they do it to survive in a F2P setting. They need the 10% or 1% who will spend thousand of dollars a month to keep the servers running and pay for the programmers to design new stuff.
I have a friend who translated games to English. They absolutely know who cheats. But they let it slide unless it goes too far. And even if they do police it the player just gets a slap on the wrist. Why? Are you going to ban a player dropping $10K a month? They won't and the player knows it.
And they also design the game so that the whales do get a competitive advantage. You are absolutely buying power and in some ways necessary for the game to survive.
It's why I dislike F2P models. B2P is only slightly better. I prefer a sub not because I want to spend money. I like it because it makes you decide to support a game you like with sacrifice (money). It's not lip service. It's the truest measure of showing if you love the game or not.
If you are F2P, you will design your game to be a grind. It's to incentivize spending real cash to level faster (your idea). Now all MMOs have a grind but F2P and Subs have different reasons. Subs create a grind to slow down consumption so it gives the developers time to build. F2P creates a grind to encourage spending money. I think that's a big philosophical difference when building a game.
And F2P creates a schism between paying players and non-paying players. I mean just look at this forum. People who want subs have a certain disdain for those who won't spend money on games (in various degrees).
Inherently, I think people are generally selfish creatures. There will be plenty of paying customers who may feel a bit frustrated that even though they are supporting the game, there will be those who don't spend money that will outperform them. This attitude is why F2P have whales. The whales want to dominate and are willing to spend to do so. And the games are designed to prevent "freeloaders" to achieve equivalent power without an almost unnatural dedication.
Who's to say they haven't achieved in the game? It's sorta a meta-achievement. Money in a sense is an achievement. If you got tons of it, why not flaunt it or use it to your advantage? Perhaps achievement is achievement no matter how you gain it.
I mean let's say the average player was filthy rich. I would venture to guess that many would spend money to buy power. Why? Because they can.
I mean, even if a busy person could get xp boosts, they will most likely never reach the heights of those who play the game like a job. They will be always fall behind in gear and skill level. So shouldn't a player get better stuff by supporting the company with REAL money so the company can continue to exist? If anything the guy playing for free should be grateful that the rich guy is keeping his favorite game afloat.
Again, I don't like F2P and just playing devil's advocate.
Maybe ESO has the right idea. Make the game F2P but so annoying that if you truly love the game, you pay a sub. Perhaps the best of both worlds?