"Nothing" seems inaccurate. Someone can pursue legal action. I'm not sure of the reliability (or cost) to do that, but it's certainly not risk-free just to try to con a bunch of people.
From the investor side, everyone should treat KS projects like investments and carefully scrutinize the people they're handing money to, and what they plan to do with it relative to how much they're asking for. With big lists of kickstarter success/fails, there is a good amount of data out there now for people to know what's a safe investment and what isn't.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
But.. but .. they promised to spend my money on making a game........
That pretty much sums up KS to me for the most part...
edit: I do have to say if you dig through the poo pile that is KS a few gems can be found. Like Pillars of Eternity.. Just got it yesterday and think I may delve into it some more tonight.
"Nothing" seems inaccurate. Someone can pursue legal action. I'm not sure of the reliability (or cost) to do that, but it's certainly not risk-free just to try to con a bunch of people.
From the investor side, everyone should treat KS projects like investments and carefully scrutinize the people they're handing money to, and what they plan to do with it relative to how much they're asking for. With big lists of kickstarter success/fails, there is a good amount of data out there now for people to know what's a safe investment and what isn't.
Oh dear! "Blunt instrument" you have got it wrong again. Donations to a kickstarter project are not investments. They are gifts.
The person on the other side may promise gifts in return but they are really not obligated to do anything but try. That kickstarter boiler plate is there to safeguard the product they are selling (remember that they get a rake off from funded projects) it really does not help anyone with litigation.
Oh dear! "Blunt instrument" you have got it wrong again. Donations to a kickstarter project are not investments. They are gifts.
The person on the other side may promise gifts in return but they are really not obligated to do anything but try. That kickstarter boiler plate is there to safeguard the product they are selling (remember that they get a rake off from funded projects) it really does not help anyone with litigation.
Perhaps you should hold off on claiming I've gotten something wrong until you actually have evidence of me getting something wrong? That's usually a good policy. The core of my post is correct: players can protect themselves by assessing the risk of a project the same way an investor would, and kickstarter projects have been sued.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
- Make some "engine" (actually, you license one, preferably one which also offers some art assets). There are several you can use for free if you're Indie, at least before you go commercial (which will never happen).
- Edit something that looks like a game. Basic character movement and some explosions will do the job, and that's basic features of those "engine" packages.
- Make some videos, screenshots, and when asked, say the real game is much more advanced than that.
You really have to use your best judgement so far I have funded three projects Planet Explorers which is on steam as we speak, Dragon Fin Soup which is approaching the finish line, and Shards Online who I really want to believe in but they are still a long way out and who knows what will happen. All in all I have had good kickstarter success.
"Nothing" seems inaccurate. Someone can pursue legal action. I'm not sure of the reliability (or cost) to do that, but it's certainly not risk-free just to try to con a bunch of people.
From the investor side, everyone should treat KS projects like investments and carefully scrutinize the people they're handing money to, and what they plan to do with it relative to how much they're asking for. With big lists of kickstarter success/fails, there is a good amount of data out there now for people to know what's a safe investment and what isn't.
Oh dear! "Blunt instrument" you have got it wrong again. Donations to a kickstarter project are not investments. They are gifts.
The person on the other side may promise gifts in return but they are really not obligated to do anything but try. That kickstarter boiler plate is there to safeguard the product they are selling (remember that they get a rake off from funded projects) it really does not help anyone with litigation.
The only thing that would really apply, in the context of suing over a KS is straight up, actual fraud.
If someone did a KS with no intention of ever putting something out, and did not do anything, at all to that end, and pocketed the money, that is about what it would take to successfully sue over a "failed KS" and win.
It is NOT enough to constitute fraud, if a person/company takes a bunch of KS or crowdfunded money and does not successfully complete or deliver the game/product, they only have to have made a "good faith" effort to do that.
Hell, they could even use KS money to backpay people for work that was already done at the time of the KS and that is not illegal. (Dishonest, but not illegal.)
And a side issue is that once the money is gone, that's it. Sue all you want, but the company or LLC that was making the game won't have any assets by that point, so there'd be nothing to get.
So it would most likely not even be worth bothering.
Which is why donating to KS for MMORPGs is an inherently bad idea: they need so much money to actually make a game successfully and well, that the chances are far greater that the result will be a failed "best effort" with a few apologies, and no money and no product at the end for backers.
- Make some "engine" (actually, you license one, preferably one which also offers some art assets). There are several you can use for free if you're Indie, at least before you go commercial (which will never happen).
- Edit something that looks like a game. Basic character movement and some explosions will do the job, and that's basic features of those "engine" packages.
- Make some videos, screenshots, and when asked, say the real game is much more advanced than that.
- Put it on kickstarter. Cash in.
- Profit.
You forgot all the hopes and dreams of sandbox, content for ever, perfect skill based combat, and all the other promises these games give us.
oh and dont forget to hype the crap out of it so more people throw their money at you.
Originally posted by CalmOceans The name "Kickstarter" doesn't even make sense anymore. It used to be about kickstarting a small project for someone.Now you have people asking thousands of dollars and people coming back to Kickstarter multiple times asking for money.And the numbers they ask are not based on the cost of the project at all, it's based on how much they think they can get away with.
Its kind of like this:
Kicksatrter started like MMOs. It was a niche thing then one day someone found out that it can make lots and lots of money if you spend a bit of cash on a marketing firm.
Then BIG business found this loophole that allows you to start a project, not just MMORPGs, but any project, as long as your young company is not affiliated with any business with a net worth greater than 10 million dollars. (JOBSACT) You can promise things but you don't have to sell any stock so if the project fails you don't have to be held accountable.
Originally posted by CalmOceans The name "Kickstarter" doesn't even make sense anymore. It used to be about kickstarting a small project for someone.
Now you have people asking thousands of dollars and people coming back to Kickstarter multiple times asking for money.
And the numbers they ask are not based on the cost of the project at all, it's based on how much they think they can get away with.
Its kind of like this:
Kicksatrter started like MMOs. It was a niche thing then one day someone found out that it can make lots and lots of money if you spend a bit of cash on a marketing firm.
Then BIG business found this loophole that allows you to start a project, not just MMORPGs, but any project, as long as your young company is not affiliated with any business with a net worth greater than 10 million dollars. (JOBSACT) You can promise things but you don't have to sell any stock so if the project fails you don't have to be held accountable.
It kind of snowballs if you know what mean..
So your theory is that publishers create dummy companies to compete on KS. lol
When you buy stock of ANY company youre not guaranteed anything, company can go bust tomorrow and you can kiss your money goodbye.
FYI, many of this companies will sell you shares, but not for 30$. If you want to be real investor you will have to pitch in a bit more serious amount and that goes beyond scope of KS.
And for OP, law prevents them, frauds have already been processed, and money has to be returned. You arent very informed, but hey its more entertaining writing nonesense on forums than inform yourself, amiright?
Originally posted by CalmOceans The name "Kickstarter" doesn't even make sense anymore. It used to be about kickstarting a small project for someone.
Now you have people asking thousands of dollars and people coming back to Kickstarter multiple times asking for money.
And the numbers they ask are not based on the cost of the project at all, it's based on how much they think they can get away with.
Its kind of like this:
Kicksatrter started like MMOs. It was a niche thing then one day someone found out that it can make lots and lots of money if you spend a bit of cash on a marketing firm.
Then BIG business found this loophole that allows you to start a project, not just MMORPGs, but any project, as long as your young company is not affiliated with any business with a net worth greater than 10 million dollars. (JOBSACT) You can promise things but you don't have to sell any stock so if the project fails you don't have to be held accountable.
It kind of snowballs if you know what mean..
And for OP, law prevents them, frauds have already been processed, and money has to be returned. You arent very informed, but hey its more entertaining writing nonesense on forums than inform yourself, amiright?
Sort of, but not really.
The standard for something like this "not to be fraud" is very low: if they basically do any kind of reasonable attempt, or say they did, to produce what was in their KS campaign, and then fail, that's it.
The money is used up, and the backers have no recourse. Where is the money to "pay backers back" going to magically come from?
People can try to sue all they want based on "KS frauds", but they are not likely to win, and even if they do, they get nothing.
(This is why almost all of the companies starting KSs are LLCs, which by definition limits their liability to whatever resources are in the pot, once those are gone, that's it, you do not get to sue a parent company or individuals, no matter how they were involved.)
There are laws that cover fraud and bad faith in transactions (whatever their legal names are), but it can be difficult getting the authorities involved. (A lot of them will pass the buck and say it's some other department or agencies responsibility, and others just won't do anything because it's not a very concrete type of case in their eyes, or even that it's just not big enough to justify their effort.)
Kickstarter themselves have very few protections for the investors (or whatever you want to call them), but they have been changing things in an attempt to go that direction. (A lot of folks think it's too little, too late.)
So the short of it is there are agreements, rules, and even laws, but good bloody luck getting anyone to enforce them.
If you want some advice of what to do if you are worried, don't do it.
If you do, make sure it's an amount you can afford to lose.
Check out the people involved, especially the one who's name is listed as the creator by Kickstarter.
And finally, if it seems fishy or too good to be true, don't do it, since after all, if it's real and successfully does what it says, you'll be able to buy it soon enough.
Originally posted by CalmOceans The name "Kickstarter" doesn't even make sense anymore. It used to be about kickstarting a small project for someone.
Now you have people asking thousands of dollars and people coming back to Kickstarter multiple times asking for money.
And the numbers they ask are not based on the cost of the project at all, it's based on how much they think they can get away with.
Its kind of like this:
Kicksatrter started like MMOs. It was a niche thing then one day someone found out that it can make lots and lots of money if you spend a bit of cash on a marketing firm.
Then BIG business found this loophole that allows you to start a project, not just MMORPGs, but any project, as long as your young company is not affiliated with any business with a net worth greater than 10 million dollars. (JOBSACT) You can promise things but you don't have to sell any stock so if the project fails you don't have to be held accountable.
It kind of snowballs if you know what mean..
And for OP, law prevents them, frauds have already been processed, and money has to be returned. You arent very informed, but hey its more entertaining writing nonesense on forums than inform yourself, amiright?
Sort of, but not really.
The standard for something like this "not to be fraud" is very low: if they basically do any kind of reasonable attempt, or say they did, to produce what was in their KS campaign, and then fail, that's it.
The money is used up, and the backers have no recourse. Where is the money to "pay backers back" going to magically come from?
People can try to sue all they want based on "KS frauds", but they are not likely to win, and even if they do, they get nothing.
(This is why almost all of the companies starting KSs are LLCs, which by definition limits their liability to whatever resources are in the pot, once those are gone, that's it, you do not get to sue a parent company or individuals, no matter how they were involved.)
OP asks specific question and this is the answer. Of course you have to prove they did what OP suggest they did.
If they didnt do that, than its not fraud, its just anither failed project and you are treated just as every other investor in the world.
So no, most people aint stupid to throw away money. Theres always certain percentage that will, but they will get scammed anyway, nothing much you can do there.
Originally posted by DMKano If you cannot discern a frodulent KS campaign from a legit one - that's on you.
I find this statement patently ridiculous. Can you tell the difference (especially when the project window may be a year or more)? In some cases, yes, laughable ideas surface. However, there are plenty of shades between "scam" and "not a scam"; I can think of a couple instances where very well-known individuals have successfully crowdfunded game projects, only for them to disappear along with the money later. For example, see Clang! by Neal Stephenson (whom I am a fan and avid reader of). This was a game that was pitched as a very good idea, by a well known author, with people like Gabe Newell appearing in the KS promo. It never materialized. That's half a million dollars up in smoke, and there are many others.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
For example, see Clang! by Neal Stephenson (whom I am a fan and avid reader of). This was a game that was pitched as a very good idea, by a well known author, with people like Gabe Newell appearing in the KS promo. It never materialized. That's half a million dollars up in smoke, and there are many others.
That article mentions the backers could get refunds if they wanted though. So probably not the best example of a "scam".
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
Originally posted by DMKano If you cannot discern a frodulent KS campaign from a legit one - that's on you.
I find this statement patently ridiculous. Can you tell the difference (especially when the project window may be a year or more)? In some cases, yes, laughable ideas surface. However, there are plenty of shades between "scam" and "not a scam"; I can think of a couple instances where very well-known individuals have successfully crowdfunded game projects, only for them to disappear along with the money later. For example, see Clang! by Neal Stephenson (whom I am a fan and avid reader of). This was a game that was pitched as a very good idea, by a well known author, with people like Gabe Newell appearing in the KS promo. It never materialized. That's half a million dollars up in smoke, and there are many others.
"with refunds given to Kickstarter supporters by request."
From that same article. Do you even read what you link?
I never said it was a scam. You are missing the point; crowdfunding can't be neatly divided into categories with good intentioned developers falling on one side and scam artists on the other. Things come up, promises aren't delivered. I would hazard that it's very difficult if not impossible to tell ahead of time what projects will meet their goals and what projects will fail, flatline, or peter out over time. Therefore, responsibility should not be completely with the consumer in the case of crowdfunding. It's like the dot com bubble of the 90's.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
Originally posted by Phaserlight I never said it was a scam. You are missing the point; crowdfunding can't be neatly divided into categories with good intentioned developers falling on one side and scam artists on the other. Things come up, promises aren't delivered. I would hazard that it's very difficult if not impossible to tell ahead of time what projects will meet their goals and what projects will fail, flatline, or peter out over time. Therefore, responsibility should not be completely with the consumer in the case of crowdfunding. It's like the dot com bubble of the 90's.
With KS you have to accept its your responsibility.
Noone forces you to give money to anyone on KS.
And yes, even some very solid projects can fail. Its nothing out of ordinary from rest of the world.
Comments
The same answer as "What stops people from making baseless allegations, or engaging in fear mongering?" Nothing...
Unless one considers the loss of ones good name and reputation to be a Bad Thing, of course.
"Nothing" seems inaccurate. Someone can pursue legal action. I'm not sure of the reliability (or cost) to do that, but it's certainly not risk-free just to try to con a bunch of people.
From the investor side, everyone should treat KS projects like investments and carefully scrutinize the people they're handing money to, and what they plan to do with it relative to how much they're asking for. With big lists of kickstarter success/fails, there is a good amount of data out there now for people to know what's a safe investment and what isn't.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
But.. but .. they promised to spend my money on making a game........
That pretty much sums up KS to me for the most part...
edit: I do have to say if you dig through the poo pile that is KS a few gems can be found. Like Pillars of Eternity.. Just got it yesterday and think I may delve into it some more tonight.
Oh dear! "Blunt instrument" you have got it wrong again. Donations to a kickstarter project are not investments. They are gifts.
The person on the other side may promise gifts in return but they are really not obligated to do anything but try. That kickstarter boiler plate is there to safeguard the product they are selling (remember that they get a rake off from funded projects) it really does not help anyone with litigation.
Perhaps you should hold off on claiming I've gotten something wrong until you actually have evidence of me getting something wrong? That's usually a good policy. The core of my post is correct: players can protect themselves by assessing the risk of a project the same way an investor would, and kickstarter projects have been sued.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Damn it you had that idea as well?
The only thing that would really apply, in the context of suing over a KS is straight up, actual fraud.
If someone did a KS with no intention of ever putting something out, and did not do anything, at all to that end, and pocketed the money, that is about what it would take to successfully sue over a "failed KS" and win.
It is NOT enough to constitute fraud, if a person/company takes a bunch of KS or crowdfunded money and does not successfully complete or deliver the game/product, they only have to have made a "good faith" effort to do that.
Hell, they could even use KS money to backpay people for work that was already done at the time of the KS and that is not illegal. (Dishonest, but not illegal.)
And a side issue is that once the money is gone, that's it. Sue all you want, but the company or LLC that was making the game won't have any assets by that point, so there'd be nothing to get.
So it would most likely not even be worth bothering.
Which is why donating to KS for MMORPGs is an inherently bad idea: they need so much money to actually make a game successfully and well, that the chances are far greater that the result will be a failed "best effort" with a few apologies, and no money and no product at the end for backers.
You forgot all the hopes and dreams of sandbox, content for ever, perfect skill based combat, and all the other promises these games give us.
oh and dont forget to hype the crap out of it so more people throw their money at you.
The name "Kickstarter" doesn't even make sense anymore. It used to be about kickstarting a small project for someone.
Now you have people asking thousands of dollars and people coming back to Kickstarter multiple times asking for money.
And the numbers they ask are not based on the cost of the project at all, it's based on how much they think they can get away with.
Heh, D&L at least had a product, Age Of Mourning on the other hand.lol
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Kicksatrter started like MMOs. It was a niche thing then one day someone found out that it can make lots and lots of money if you spend a bit of cash on a marketing firm.
Then BIG business found this loophole that allows you to start a project, not just MMORPGs, but any project, as long as your young company is not affiliated with any business with a net worth greater than 10 million dollars. (JOBSACT) You can promise things but you don't have to sell any stock so if the project fails you don't have to be held accountable.
It kind of snowballs if you know what mean..
If you are interested in making a MMO maybe visit my page to get a free open source engine.
Really?
You know the games you buy aint worth 60$, that gun in cash shop isnt worth 5$, and that day 1 DLC isnt worth 30$.
Its all so CEO and his pals can buy yachts and sail off into the sunset. With YOUR money. Thats right.
And you dont even get to choose which game gets made, youre served what they think you should play, relase bug ridden unfinished games.
So your theory is that publishers create dummy companies to compete on KS. lol
When you buy stock of ANY company youre not guaranteed anything, company can go bust tomorrow and you can kiss your money goodbye.
FYI, many of this companies will sell you shares, but not for 30$. If you want to be real investor you will have to pitch in a bit more serious amount and that goes beyond scope of KS.
And for OP, law prevents them, frauds have already been processed, and money has to be returned. You arent very informed, but hey its more entertaining writing nonesense on forums than inform yourself, amiright?
Sort of, but not really.
The standard for something like this "not to be fraud" is very low: if they basically do any kind of reasonable attempt, or say they did, to produce what was in their KS campaign, and then fail, that's it.
The money is used up, and the backers have no recourse. Where is the money to "pay backers back" going to magically come from?
People can try to sue all they want based on "KS frauds", but they are not likely to win, and even if they do, they get nothing.
(This is why almost all of the companies starting KSs are LLCs, which by definition limits their liability to whatever resources are in the pot, once those are gone, that's it, you do not get to sue a parent company or individuals, no matter how they were involved.)
There are laws that cover fraud and bad faith in transactions (whatever their legal names are), but it can be difficult getting the authorities involved. (A lot of them will pass the buck and say it's some other department or agencies responsibility, and others just won't do anything because it's not a very concrete type of case in their eyes, or even that it's just not big enough to justify their effort.)
Kickstarter themselves have very few protections for the investors (or whatever you want to call them), but they have been changing things in an attempt to go that direction. (A lot of folks think it's too little, too late.)
So the short of it is there are agreements, rules, and even laws, but good bloody luck getting anyone to enforce them.
If you want some advice of what to do if you are worried, don't do it.
If you do, make sure it's an amount you can afford to lose.
Check out the people involved, especially the one who's name is listed as the creator by Kickstarter.
And finally, if it seems fishy or too good to be true, don't do it, since after all, if it's real and successfully does what it says, you'll be able to buy it soon enough.
Lost my mind, now trying to lose yours...
All they have to do is give themselves an EXTREAMILY LARGE PAY CHECK, and say they need more money because of cost. Then its ethical !!
That's how all business runs anymore.
OP asks specific question and this is the answer. Of course you have to prove they did what OP suggest they did.
If they didnt do that, than its not fraud, its just anither failed project and you are treated just as every other investor in the world.
Not everyone is Brad McQuaid.
And his kickstarter failed.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1588672538/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen?ref=discovery
So no, most people aint stupid to throw away money. Theres always certain percentage that will, but they will get scammed anyway, nothing much you can do there.
I find this statement patently ridiculous. Can you tell the difference (especially when the project window may be a year or more)? In some cases, yes, laughable ideas surface. However, there are plenty of shades between "scam" and "not a scam"; I can think of a couple instances where very well-known individuals have successfully crowdfunded game projects, only for them to disappear along with the money later. For example, see Clang! by Neal Stephenson (whom I am a fan and avid reader of). This was a game that was pitched as a very good idea, by a well known author, with people like Gabe Newell appearing in the KS promo. It never materialized. That's half a million dollars up in smoke, and there are many others.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
That article mentions the backers could get refunds if they wanted though. So probably not the best example of a "scam".
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
"with refunds given to Kickstarter supporters by request."
From that same article. Do you even read what you link?
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
With KS you have to accept its your responsibility.
Noone forces you to give money to anyone on KS.
And yes, even some very solid projects can fail. Its nothing out of ordinary from rest of the world.
But this thread is about scams, and thats suable.