Cite a reference dating back to 2009 that says it was always their plan to target a new generation of players wit EQN. not something Dave G said in 2012 well after the game had already gone through multiple redesigns. Again the history of the company supports my views.
<<snip>>While I don't know about them going after "a new generation" they certainly didn't want to kill off EQ/EQ2 by only going after fans of them. These vids are basically suggestion forums to get feedback from CURRENT (as of 2010) players. Not those that played it in 99-early 00s aka people no longer supporting SOE at the time. Nostalgia doesn't pay the bills.
If you actually watch all the videos, you'll see die hards wanting EQ99 + new graphics, to folks wanting WoW conveniences (Dungeon Finder) and other "modern" systems. Along with everything in between.
There is no one way to do it right that will please everyone. They are a business and have to make decisions that will help them. Pleasing a small pool of former or even current customers isn't going to keep the company going forever, at least not competitively in the market.
<<snip>>
Questions I have:
When did they say they were only catering to the older generation of gamers?
How would it make sense to ignore new gamers or those with different styles/preferences when the tech and what not allows them to incorporate a lot more than what was possible 10-15+ years ago?
They don't need to please everyone, but they can branch out and not have specific mechanics that instantly turn people away. Such as progression requires playing a game as a full/part time job. There is no way I could play vanilla EQ today and make acceptable progress without cutting out a decent chunk of my life outside of work. Was okay when I was 17-20 and was in high school/college, not so much today as an actual adult. Glad some folks have that time, but I'd wager there aren't enough of you to fund a big name game forever.
What you are pointing out is SOE asking EQ players what they want in EQN. I'm not sure why you or others want to make it seem like EQ players from one era or another are not both EQ players who would be interested in playing a new EQ game. The points being made is that SOE was originally making EQN aimed at the EQ base (from all time). That is why they were asking EQ players what they want as you have demonstrated. That doesn't mean they don't want new players also, but millions of people have played games based on EQ. it isn't as small as you are trying to make it out to be.
The basic strength of an intellectual property is the fanbase. For someone to suggest that all the rich history form that IP isn't being used to attract fans of the IP, but to target those that have no interest in it is beyond reason.
Now what SOE intended and what they delivered and/or altered along the way are two completely separate points. Looking at what EQN is now and using that to say EQN was never aimed at fans of the EQ franchise just doesn't make any sense.
To answer your question:
no one is claiming SOE was only making EQN to only cater to older generations of gamers. I'm not sure where you are getting this point from.
Some people are claiming that EQN was never being designed for fans of the property.....
Some people are saying the results of what SOE has shown of EQN are so far away from what the enjoyed about EQ that it has little to no interest for them.
again two completely different points that some are trying to make into the same.
Very doubtful this is going to go anywhere, the reason is Sony sold it off. The money would have been better spent on upgrading EQ 1 graphics. I will not support it.
" Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Those Who Would Threaten It " MAGA
What are all these posts about EQ:Next ? Is it not clear to anyone that is even barely informed that the game is dead ?
I would say that EQ:N is exciting the same as Half Life 3 or first alien contact
The only way someone can believe EQN is "dead" is lacking the ability to read, hear, see and string a few brain cells together. Beyond trolling, there is no reason to believe EQN is anything but in development as it has been for so many years. Unless "dead" means being worked on currently by a team that continue to show progress, despite it not being exactly what some want to see as "progress."
I'm going to disagree with you here.
While SOE/Daybreak is still talking about developing EQN, it is nothing more than that at this point, talk.
while that may turn out to be true, anyone who feels this game is vaporware has some solid evidence to come to those conclusions.
Massive layoffs.
36+ podcasts about the game and they never talk about the actual game
The leadership of the game were fired.
Developer tools and support for storybricks was cancelled.
The game design has been scrapped and rebooted three times already with a fourth resulting from the buyout looking like it is going to happen as well.
Almost 7 years in development and SOE can't even put out a gameplay demo or even a world flythrough.
They are asking players of EQ:Landmark to design and build structures for Qeynos.... The capital city in the game isn't even finished yet...
The list of alarms goes on and on, but looking at all the events transpiring it does follow the pattern of a project in serious trouble and one that could never see the light of day.
I think they are still making efforts to develop EQN, but I also don't think they have limitless time and money anymore, Deadlines have been put in place and it is do or die time.
Originally posted by Clywd Nope, no interest in I-don't-deserve-the-name:next. Still playing eq1. Waiting for pantheon...
You mean that game where devs are working for free because the guy at the top uses development money for his drug habit? Ya I got excited for that game till I spent 5 min reading up on who is making it =-
Hey, every body goes through life with some sort of problem... Doesnt mean he doesnt deserve a second chance at things. If he got help for his addiction which he claims he did, then he can be rehabilitated. Hopefully it worked for him and Pantheon will be fantastic just like Vanguard was(minus the bugs)
On topic -
The second I saw saw the combat was to be similar to GW2, my hopes and anticipation went out the window. I absolutely loathe GW2 and the grouping system in dungeons is a clusterfuck. I can get by the graphics issue but the gameplay I simply cannot.
As they've said from the start, EQN is not meant to be a replacement for EQ/EQ2. Simple as that. It isn't Madden 2013 being replaced by Madden 2015. Could they incorporate more of the EQ mechanics? Sure, but why would they? To please the small percent of folks that tried EQ and stayed with EQ? Seems like a pretty poor business model.
The Madden brand has built up such a massive following, because they continue to refine and evolve the brand to serve their fanbase and attract new players at the same time.
SOE continually ignores its playerbase in effort to chase a mythical bigger group of players that they think want their intellectual properties. For over a decade they have treated tier fanbase as replaceable and have tried unsuccessfully to replace them.
That is the most basic reason why they do not have the large fanbase to draw upon in the first place.
Designing a game that ignores fans of the IP and tries to target non-fans has been proven enough to be a losing strategy for SOE.
Originally posted by Rydeson Nothing to get hyped about.. I have seen next to NOTHING in real intel to form an opinion or to get excited about.. Right now all we've seen and been fed is "WORDS".. Ford could talk about making a car that goes from 0-60 in 3 seconds, getting 80mpg, and sits 5 adults for under $20,000, and I would simply laugh with a big "yeah, right".. lol Until I see actual performance data, and spy pictures of a demo on the tracking doing what they claim, and maybe a prototype concept at the Auto Show, I'm not getting hyped at anything.. I'm too damn old and wise to believe salesmen..
While I don't disagree with this stance, I do find it interesting that you are able to feel so strongly against what they've said with "words" to have spent so much time complaining about it here. Same goes for all those complaining about EQN's art style, combat, progression, yadda yadda which we've only seen through tech demos and through Landmark's version of said mechanics. Are those videos and an entire game related to EQN or not?
What you are pointing out is SOE asking EQ players what they want in EQN. I'm not sure why you or others want to make it seem like EQ players from one era or another are not both EQ players who would be interested in playing a new EQ game. The points being made is that SOE was originally making EQN aimed at the EQ base (from all time). That is why they were asking EQ players what they want as you have demonstrated. That doesn't mean they don't want new players also, but millions of people have played games based on EQ. it isn't as small as you are trying to make it out to be.
The basic strength of an intellectual property is the fanbase. For someone to suggest that all the rich history form that IP isn't being used to attract fans of the IP, but to target those that have no interest in it is beyond reason.
Now what SOE intended and what they delivered and/or altered along the way are two completely separate points. Looking at what EQN is now and using that to say EQN was never aimed at fans of the EQ franchise just doesn't make any sense.
To answer your question:
no one is claiming SOE was only making EQN to only cater to older generations of gamers. I'm not sure where you are getting this point from.
Some people are claiming that EQN was never being designed for fans of the property.....
Some people are saying the results of what SOE has shown of EQN are so far away from what the enjoyed about EQ that it has little to no interest for them.
again two completely different points that some are trying to make into the same.
I believe it might be a bit of misunderstanding or misrepresentation of what we mean possibly which leads to some of what you mention.
To me, EQN from the earliest to the current design can be enjoyed and played by anyone that has ever played an EQ game along with anyone that hasn't. Just as any franchise has the built in fanbase while going after new blood.
For me, when I say that EQN isn't going after EQ/EQ2 fans, I mean those that ONLY want EQ/EQ2 and aren't willing to try anything remotely different. Reading many of the comments by older gamers here, I don't believe I'm too far off.
Some simply want that 10-15 year old game design, with upgraded art that fits what they believe EQ should look like, with maybe some newer/updated tech/systems as well. Specifically, I see many longing for EQ's early years.
Yet SOE said they wanted players to choose which game was right for them, not ditch EQ/EQ2 for the newer "better" model that made the other two irrelevant.
EQ/EQ2 are still great games, but from what I see, most wanting to play "EQ" no longer play them due to the changes. That's where I start using "era" to try and figure out what specifically people mean when they say "EQ".
Not surprising, a lot of the suggestions during those panels did make their way into EQN in some form. Maybe not exactly as suggested, but in a way that could still appeal to many. Sort of, people don't know what they want until someone tells them.
Millions have played EQ games, and the majority have long since moved on. Many more have never gave the franchise a second look. To me, if someone had gave me two list of features of Vanilla EQ and Vanilla WoW and what was expected to achieve things, I most likely would of picked WoW. However, EQ was so much more memorable for me and I'm glad that is where my experience began. That experience can't be magically created by an art style or some mechanics. It is an overal feeling and that is what they seem to have in mind for EQN. Not the same or better, but great all on its own.
Goes to the "stat" thrown out that says the #1 thing people remember fondly and reason they left being corpse runs. That is a huge deal. Most seems to enjoy the feature, yet most also left the game relatively quickly once new games without the feature came out. That makes it hard for a company to figure out what to do for future games.
Those claiming there is ZERO connection between EQ/EQ2 and EQN are simply being hard headed or haven't looked into the game enough to know better. Or what they consider "EQ" is so specific that again, unless we see some serious copying, they won't be happy.
I fall back to something like Final Fantasy. I have no clue how many FF games are in the franchise, but I can easily say that not every single one is remotely the same as the others, nor do they all appeal to every fan of the franchise. Some want the entire "EQ" package made into a new game, while others like myself want a new game within the "EQ" verse, which is what EQN is.
Should EQN incorporate early EQ, current EQ, EQ2 day 1, EQ2 expansion 10? Where at what? Can't simply be "we want it all" or only XYZ. They can't tailor make a game for individuals. Although they can try to make a game with enough variety that it may be enough to entertain many for a long time.
While SOE/Daybreak is still talking about developing EQN, it is nothing more than that at this point, talk.
while that may turn out to be true, anyone who feels this game is vaporware has some solid evidence to come to those conclusions.
I disagree, the "evidence" is completely ignoring what has been shown and jumping to "If I can't play the game right this second it doesn't exist."
People can choose to ignore the devs that say "WE ARE MAKING THE GAME STILL" and ignore all the races, items, skills, classes, vision, tech demos, music, Pre-Alpha playable Demo (Landmark), etc but that seems rather silly to me.
For some the game won't exist until it a finalized and released product. Which is their option. But it is rather funny all the same.
Massive layoffs.
Still have a team. Most gone were not "hands on" actually making the game.
36+ podcasts about the game and they never talk about the actual game
Workshops are showing the world of EQN coming to life. Some seem to not grasp that they are spending a TON of time making the world/tools work before slapping all the EQverse stuff on top. Is it what most of us want to see? No, but it is EQN in the early stages.
The leadership of the game were fired.
Both of which I question what their current jobs were. Dave seemed to be PR and Jeff was vision? Several years into development, how much vision he still pumping out and obviously the PR end hasn't made many too happy...
Developer tools and support for storybricks was cancelled.
Tools were canceled? Might have missed it, but I believe devs said everything they worked on was still being used and they will continue to build upon that with their own AI devs. Sucks to lose SB, but "new" AI doesn't appear to be out of the question.
The game design has been scrapped and rebooted three times already with a fourth resulting from the buyout looking like it is going to happen as well.
"Looking" is not the same as it has happened. Until it does, the 2013-current design seems to remain.
Almost 7 years in development and SOE can't even put out a gameplay demo or even a world flythrough.
There are multiple "demos" of races/classes/skills/combat. Are they "true" in-game demos? Not really, but I don't see the big difference or need. Flythrough? They've shown off what a few areas would look like and Landmark is a pretty huge example of what the biomes and world may look like. Guess they could fly through the snow biome in Landmark and go "This is Everfrost!"
They are asking players of EQ:Landmark to design and build structures for Qeynos.... The capital city in the game isn't even finished yet...
Because they are still building it. Unless I'm mistaken, games don't magical come into existence. Someone had to build them and it takes time. The method/tools being used are taking a LONG time in this case.
The list of alarms goes on and on, but looking at all the events transpiring it does follow the pattern of a project in serious trouble and one that could never see the light of day.
I don't disagree but this is simply subjective and if you are glass half full or half empty type of person. BUT THERE IS A GLASS
I think they are still making efforts to develop EQN, but I also don't think they have limitless time and money anymore, Deadlines have been put in place and it is do or die time.
Agreed. From what a dev has said on Reddit, we should start seeing something with more substance relatively soon. But they don't want to take the same path nor make the same "mistake" as before by revealing a bunch of stuff and not being able to follow up with it quickly.
The Madden brand has built up such a massive following, because they continue to refine and evolve the brand to serve their fanbase and attract new players at the same time.
SOE continually ignores its playerbase in effort to chase a mythical bigger group of players that they think want their intellectual properties. For over a decade they have treated tier fanbase as replaceable and have tried unsuccessfully to replace them.
That is the most basic reason why they do not have the large fanbase to draw upon in the first place.
Designing a game that ignores fans of the IP and tries to target non-fans has been proven enough to be a losing strategy for SOE.
Yet there are fans that have remained with EQ for 16+ years. Do they change the game or make a new one that might not be something the current fans actually playing the games want and instead go after those that left years ago? It isn't very straight forward.
If EQ/EQ2 were closed down and 100% failed, I see a possibility to going back to the roots as some want. But fact remains that many have stuck with EQ/EQ2 through all the changes and still call them home.
At some point, someone is going to get upset with a game not catering to them specifically.
EQN is an attempt to "try again" in a new way where old fans are welcome but new fans as well. They want to put as much "EQ" in EQN as possible, while accounting for the modern gamer, market, and tech.
From my end, EQ has been refined and has evolved, but not in a way that many have welcomed, hence its current low population.
They aren't ignoring anyone, they simply can't please everyone, including their own fans while making a product that attempt to become more than something running on fumes.
Pantheon is basically what many want, even borrowing some of the "EQverse" itself it looks like. Yet the support it has is pretty low. Not to say if they were handing millions and made a quality game that many wouldn't play it, but I think the risk is simply too high to see if maybe just maybe there are enough looking for that experience.
It is EQ lore meets Disney cartoon creator. No thank you. When i watched the big opening live stream of EQN announcement i left very confused. Action combat, what? This is a single player or maybe co-op console game at best. Sorry EQN move over, next please!
I am very much looking forward to SOE opening up a new EQ progression server this summer. Don't muck it up please Sony.
Though I share some interest in EQN, none of it is based on my previous love of EQ and EQ2. EQN is currently really really really under the radar on potential games I'm hyped about, but that's primarily due to the "vaporware" nature of the current game (I'm not saying it doesn't exist or won't be made, just that it's very far off from it). They haven't really shown much since the launch of Landmark, and what they have shown has primarily been tech demos and not actual gameplay.
had hopes for eq next but as for now i gave up hopes for any mmorpg, hardly play any games anymore discovered other things to do than playing those games. Imo mmorpgs will never more be like those were 15+ years ago.
I believe it might be a bit of misunderstanding or misrepresentation of what we mean possibly which leads to some of what you mention.
To me, EQN from the earliest to the current design can be enjoyed and played by anyone that has ever played an EQ game along with anyone that hasn't. Just as any franchise has the built in fanbase while going after new blood.
For me, when I say that EQN isn't going after EQ/EQ2 fans, I mean those that ONLY want EQ/EQ2 and aren't willing to try anything remotely different. Reading many of the comments by older gamers here, I don't believe I'm too far off.
Some simply want that 10-15 year old game design, with upgraded art that fits what they believe EQ should look like, with maybe some newer/updated tech/systems as well. Specifically, I see many longing for EQ's early years.
Yet SOE said they wanted players to choose which game was right for them, not ditch EQ/EQ2 for the newer "better" model that made the other two irrelevant.
EQ/EQ2 are still great games, but from what I see, most wanting to play "EQ" no longer play them due to the changes. That's where I start using "era" to try and figure out what specifically people mean when they say "EQ".
Not surprising, a lot of the suggestions during those panels did make their way into EQN in some form. Maybe not exactly as suggested, but in a way that could still appeal to many. Sort of, people don't know what they want until someone tells them.
Millions have played EQ games, and the majority have long since moved on. Many more have never gave the franchise a second look. To me, if someone had gave me two list of features of Vanilla EQ and Vanilla WoW and what was expected to achieve things, I most likely would of picked WoW. However, EQ was so much more memorable for me and I'm glad that is where my experience began. That experience can't be magically created by an art style or some mechanics. It is an overal feeling and that is what they seem to have in mind for EQN. Not the same or better, but great all on its own.
Goes to the "stat" thrown out that says the #1 thing people remember fondly and reason they left being corpse runs. That is a huge deal. Most seems to enjoy the feature, yet most also left the game relatively quickly once new games without the feature came out. That makes it hard for a company to figure out what to do for future games.
Those claiming there is ZERO connection between EQ/EQ2 and EQN are simply being hard headed or haven't looked into the game enough to know better. Or what they consider "EQ" is so specific that again, unless we see some serious copying, they won't be happy.
I fall back to something like Final Fantasy. I have no clue how many FF games are in the franchise, but I can easily say that not every single one is remotely the same as the others, nor do they all appeal to every fan of the franchise. Some want the entire "EQ" package made into a new game, while others like myself want a new game within the "EQ" verse, which is what EQN is.
Should EQN incorporate early EQ, current EQ, EQ2 day 1, EQ2 expansion 10? Where at what? Can't simply be "we want it all" or only XYZ. They can't tailor make a game for individuals. Although they can try to make a game with enough variety that it may be enough to entertain many for a long time.
I think you are looking at a small disgruntled segment of EQ players and treating them as if they represent some masses. I'm not sure I agree with that.
For one, the vast majority of EQ/EQ2 players left toes games to play WOW. So clearly try are not stuck playing nothing but classic EQ.
The base factor here is a game needs to be fun and appeal to players and that does not appear to be what EQN is offering.
You can see the same trend in SOE other games. Landmark, free realm, the agency, DCU, Clone wars, etc. Something just isn't right in their games and trying to blame the players isn't right.
While SOE/Daybreak is still talking about developing EQN, it is nothing more than that at this point, talk.
while that may turn out to be true, anyone who feels this game is vaporware has some solid evidence to come to those conclusions.
I disagree, the "evidence" is completely ignoring what has been shown and jumping to "If I can't play the game right this second it doesn't exist."
People can choose to ignore the devs that say "WE ARE MAKING THE GAME STILL" and ignore all the races, items, skills, classes, vision, tech demos, music, Pre-Alpha playable Demo (Landmark), etc but that seems rather silly to me.
For some the game won't exist until it a finalized and released product. Which is their option. But it is rather funny all the same.
Massive layoffs.
Still have a team. Most gone were not "hands on" actually making the game.
36+ podcasts about the game and they never talk about the actual game
Workshops are showing the world of EQN coming to life. Some seem to not grasp that they are spending a TON of time making the world/tools work before slapping all the EQverse stuff on top. Is it what most of us want to see? No, but it is EQN in the early stages.
The leadership of the game were fired.
Both of which I question what their current jobs were. Dave seemed to be PR and Jeff was vision? Several years into development, how much vision he still pumping out and obviously the PR end hasn't made many too happy...
Developer tools and support for storybricks was cancelled.
Tools were canceled? Might have missed it, but I believe devs said everything they worked on was still being used and they will continue to build upon that with their own AI devs. Sucks to lose SB, but "new" AI doesn't appear to be out of the question.
The game design has been scrapped and rebooted three times already with a fourth resulting from the buyout looking like it is going to happen as well.
"Looking" is not the same as it has happened. Until it does, the 2013-current design seems to remain.
Almost 7 years in development and SOE can't even put out a gameplay demo or even a world flythrough.
There are multiple "demos" of races/classes/skills/combat. Are they "true" in-game demos? Not really, but I don't see the big difference or need. Flythrough? They've shown off what a few areas would look like and Landmark is a pretty huge example of what the biomes and world may look like. Guess they could fly through the snow biome in Landmark and go "This is Everfrost!"
They are asking players of EQ:Landmark to design and build structures for Qeynos.... The capital city in the game isn't even finished yet...
Because they are still building it. Unless I'm mistaken, games don't magical come into existence. Someone had to build them and it takes time. The method/tools being used are taking a LONG time in this case.
The list of alarms goes on and on, but looking at all the events transpiring it does follow the pattern of a project in serious trouble and one that could never see the light of day.
I don't disagree but this is simply subjective and if you are glass half full or half empty type of person. BUT THERE IS A GLASS
I think they are still making efforts to develop EQN, but I also don't think they have limitless time and money anymore, Deadlines have been put in place and it is do or die time.
Agreed. From what a dev has said on Reddit, we should start seeing something with more substance relatively soon. But they don't want to take the same path nor make the same "mistake" as before by revealing a bunch of stuff and not being able to follow up with it quickly.
I am going to debunk all your points very simply.
EQN is following a nearly identical path that SOE did when they were developing tier spy themed MMO, The Agency.
You may dismiss everything with rationalizations, but there is a very solid foundation to worry that this game may be cancelled.
quite frankly you are reaching deep in several instances to justify the warning signs.
regardless of metaphors, EQN is possibly 7 years into development, the company has collapsed, they are begging players to design the game world (including the starting city!!) and there is almost nothing they can show about the game, even though they started hyping it 2 years ago. The fact that they have gone radio silent should be the most frightening thing about the games future.
You are right that games don't magically build themselves, but 7 years later and EQN cannot show gameplay? they have not even built the starting city?
Yet there are fans that have remained with EQ for 16+ years. Do they change the game or make a new one that might not be something the current fans actually playing the games want and instead go after those that left years ago? It isn't very straight forward.
If EQ/EQ2 were closed down and 100% failed, I see a possibility to going back to the roots as some want. But fact remains that many have stuck with EQ/EQ2 through all the changes and still call them home.
At some point, someone is going to get upset with a game not catering to them specifically.
EQN is an attempt to "try again" in a new way where old fans are welcome but new fans as well. They want to put as much "EQ" in EQN as possible, while accounting for the modern gamer, market, and tech.
From my end, EQ has been refined and has evolved, but not in a way that many have welcomed, hence its current low population.
They aren't ignoring anyone, they simply can't please everyone, including their own fans while making a product that attempt to become more than something running on fumes.
Pantheon is basically what many want, even borrowing some of the "EQverse" itself it looks like. Yet the support it has is pretty low. Not to say if they were handing millions and made a quality game that many wouldn't play it, but I think the risk is simply too high to see if maybe just maybe there are enough looking for that experience.
again I point out that EQ2 did exactly what you are saying EQN is aiming to achieve and it failed miserably.
also I think you are dead wrong that EQ/SOE game populations are from not being able to please everyone or anything natural. You can pick just about any of their games and you will find key moments when SOE made sweeping changes that were aimed at attracting new players and it almost always impacted existing players in a negative way. The company has a long history of designing and redesigning their games for a mythical potential playerbase and not growing the base they have.
They have flat out said they understand they would lose players over sweeping changes, but they "needed" to grow their games. It cannot be stated any more clearly that yes they do design for nonexistent players at the expense of their existing players.
Yet there are fans that have remained with EQ for 16+ years. Do they change the game or make a new one that might not be something the current fans actually playing the games want and instead go after those that left years ago? It isn't very straight forward.
If EQ/EQ2 were closed down and 100% failed, I see a possibility to going back to the roots as some want. But fact remains that many have stuck with EQ/EQ2 through all the changes and still call them home.
At some point, someone is going to get upset with a game not catering to them specifically.
EQN is an attempt to "try again" in a new way where old fans are welcome but new fans as well. They want to put as much "EQ" in EQN as possible, while accounting for the modern gamer, market, and tech.
From my end, EQ has been refined and has evolved, but not in a way that many have welcomed, hence its current low population.
They aren't ignoring anyone, they simply can't please everyone, including their own fans while making a product that attempt to become more than something running on fumes.
Pantheon is basically what many want, even borrowing some of the "EQverse" itself it looks like. Yet the support it has is pretty low. Not to say if they were handing millions and made a quality game that many wouldn't play it, but I think the risk is simply too high to see if maybe just maybe there are enough looking for that experience.
again I point out that EQ2 did exactly what you are saying EQN is aiming to achieve and it failed miserably.
also I think you are dead wrong that EQ/SOE game populations are from not being able to please everyone or anything natural. You can pick just about any of their games and you will find key moments when SOE made sweeping changes that were aimed at attracting new players and it almost always impacted existing players in a negative way. The company has a long history of designing and redesigning their games for a mythical potential playerbase and not growing the base they have.
They have flat out said they understand they would lose players over sweeping changes, but they "needed" to grow their games. It cannot be stated any more clearly that yes they do design for nonexistent players at the expense of their existing players.
Not that I don't believe you but can you link when they said they knew they would lose players because of changes? There is a big difference between changing an existing MMO midstream and designing a new one that is different, in some ways, than existing titles.
Why would DGC release the same formula of game as any two of their previous ones?
I do agree with your opinion that the changes they made to EQ and EQ2 did more harm than good but since we can't know what would have been, it's only an opinion. This time they are bringing something different from the start. Well, quasi start since they smartly seen how the "WoW formula" was getting too cramped and redesigned to something that would set them apart and provide something fresh for players.
Should they have changed the name? No. What EQ "was" is under the interpretation of each player. Was it the artstyle? Was it the vast world? Was it the lore? The need for other players to get the most out of the game?
Take your pick. Playing EQ and/or EQ2 for n years gives no one the authority to proclaim what is, or is not, "EQ."
Originally posted by Alders EQ 1/2 fans are not the demographic EQN is going for so i don't see why they would be hyped for it.
It seems that all players are the demographic for EQN but maybe you meant the specific, targeted demographic, in which case I would agree. Honestly, if they go through with their aim to have group content, a vast world, good crafting system, etc. I don't see why players of EQ 1/2 fans wouldn't be interested. Unless it's because of art style and aiming mechanic in which case that personal preference outreaches the tie to other EQ titles IMO.
SOE is not the same developer anymore,not even close.As a matter of fact their CHEAPER direction started several years ago when the news hot that SOE was losing boatloads of money.I saw it in expansions,one after another,i got tired of it and quit supporting SOE altogether.
They would have to release an absolute GEM to get me back on board and even them ,knowing their push more towards cash shop than their games,has totally turned me off.
Their team is far too small now to put out any triple A quality and their agenda has been to push out early access,non finished products,so why would anyone be hyped?
SOE is also known for the worst developer ever in releasing buggy games,so i think it obvious they have always had the agenda to push games out before they are ready,just more pronounced of late.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
What I am looking for in an MMO is what EQ used to be, Open world, no hand holding, grouping, defined roles and where the game is not locked down in one direction.
If you want a house, you get the necessary skills and build it. You want to craft items, you get the skills and you make items, items that are meaningful to the game throughout it's play. PvE, exploration, PvP, crafting or whatever floats your boat.
I want a game that does not have a hint book on the day of release or 1 million websites that promote the best way to "game" the game. I want a game that when my character goes to a place for a 1st time, the map is blank. I do not want to see ! ? " ^ % above anyones head. I want a game where faction means something, there should be places that I get chased out of or have to pay a large toll to get through. NPC's ? Good, Evil, kind, self centered, the whole nine yards. NPC's that want something for themselves, not just you. In the end, no I am not hyped about EQN or any current MMO's that cater to the short attention span world.
What I am looking for in an MMO is what EQ used to be, Open world, no hand holding, grouping, defined roles and where the game is not locked down in one direction.
If you want a house, you get the necessary skills and build it. You want to craft items, you get the skills and you make items, items that are meaningful to the game throughout it's play. PvE, exploration, PvP, crafting or whatever floats your boat.
I want a game that does not have a hint book on the day of release or 1 million websites that promote the best way to "game" the game. I want a game that when my character goes to a place for a 1st time, the map is blank. I do not want to see ! ? " ^ % above anyones head. I want a game where faction means something, there should be places that I get chased out of or have to pay a large toll to get through. NPC's ? Good, Evil, kind, self centered, the whole nine yards. NPC's that want something for themselves, not just you. In the end, no I am not hyped about EQN or any current MMO's that cater to the short attention span world.
If that's the case you should look into EQN a little more deeply. A lot of the intent comments by the developers line up with what you are saying.
Originally posted by Alders EQ 1/2 fans are not the demographic EQN is going for so i don't see why they would be hyped for it.
It seems that all players are the demographic for EQN but maybe you meant the specific, targeted demographic, in which case I would agree. Honestly, if they go through with their aim to have group content, a vast world, good crafting system, etc. I don't see why players of EQ 1/2 fans wouldn't be interested. Unless it's because of art style and aiming mechanic in which case that personal preference outreaches the tie to other EQ titles IMO.
What i meant was EQN is not going after the over 30, community driven, group content favoring, trinity loving, interdependence reliant player base that is the EQ fans.
They're going after the under 25, MOBA loving, Twitch watching, solo playing, get in and out in 15-30 minutes, game hopping, unable to commit, patience lacking player base.
I don't blame them since it is a business and i don't believe there are enough original EQ fans to support a new title. EQ fans just have to come to grips with reality. The franchise you helped build is no longer for you.
Comments
What you are pointing out is SOE asking EQ players what they want in EQN. I'm not sure why you or others want to make it seem like EQ players from one era or another are not both EQ players who would be interested in playing a new EQ game. The points being made is that SOE was originally making EQN aimed at the EQ base (from all time). That is why they were asking EQ players what they want as you have demonstrated. That doesn't mean they don't want new players also, but millions of people have played games based on EQ. it isn't as small as you are trying to make it out to be.
The basic strength of an intellectual property is the fanbase. For someone to suggest that all the rich history form that IP isn't being used to attract fans of the IP, but to target those that have no interest in it is beyond reason.
Now what SOE intended and what they delivered and/or altered along the way are two completely separate points. Looking at what EQN is now and using that to say EQN was never aimed at fans of the EQ franchise just doesn't make any sense.
To answer your question:
no one is claiming SOE was only making EQN to only cater to older generations of gamers. I'm not sure where you are getting this point from.
Some people are claiming that EQN was never being designed for fans of the property.....
Some people are saying the results of what SOE has shown of EQN are so far away from what the enjoyed about EQ that it has little to no interest for them.
again two completely different points that some are trying to make into the same.
MAGA
I'm going to disagree with you here.
While SOE/Daybreak is still talking about developing EQN, it is nothing more than that at this point, talk.
while that may turn out to be true, anyone who feels this game is vaporware has some solid evidence to come to those conclusions.
Massive layoffs.
36+ podcasts about the game and they never talk about the actual game
The leadership of the game were fired.
Developer tools and support for storybricks was cancelled.
The game design has been scrapped and rebooted three times already with a fourth resulting from the buyout looking like it is going to happen as well.
Almost 7 years in development and SOE can't even put out a gameplay demo or even a world flythrough.
They are asking players of EQ:Landmark to design and build structures for Qeynos.... The capital city in the game isn't even finished yet...
The list of alarms goes on and on, but looking at all the events transpiring it does follow the pattern of a project in serious trouble and one that could never see the light of day.
I think they are still making efforts to develop EQN, but I also don't think they have limitless time and money anymore, Deadlines have been put in place and it is do or die time.
Hey, every body goes through life with some sort of problem... Doesnt mean he doesnt deserve a second chance at things. If he got help for his addiction which he claims he did, then he can be rehabilitated. Hopefully it worked for him and Pantheon will be fantastic just like Vanguard was(minus the bugs)
On topic -
The second I saw saw the combat was to be similar to GW2, my hopes and anticipation went out the window. I absolutely loathe GW2 and the grouping system in dungeons is a clusterfuck. I can get by the graphics issue but the gameplay I simply cannot.
The Madden brand has built up such a massive following, because they continue to refine and evolve the brand to serve their fanbase and attract new players at the same time.
SOE continually ignores its playerbase in effort to chase a mythical bigger group of players that they think want their intellectual properties. For over a decade they have treated tier fanbase as replaceable and have tried unsuccessfully to replace them.
That is the most basic reason why they do not have the large fanbase to draw upon in the first place.
Designing a game that ignores fans of the IP and tries to target non-fans has been proven enough to be a losing strategy for SOE.
While I don't disagree with this stance, I do find it interesting that you are able to feel so strongly against what they've said with "words" to have spent so much time complaining about it here. Same goes for all those complaining about EQN's art style, combat, progression, yadda yadda which we've only seen through tech demos and through Landmark's version of said mechanics. Are those videos and an entire game related to EQN or not?
I believe it might be a bit of misunderstanding or misrepresentation of what we mean possibly which leads to some of what you mention.
To me, EQN from the earliest to the current design can be enjoyed and played by anyone that has ever played an EQ game along with anyone that hasn't. Just as any franchise has the built in fanbase while going after new blood.
For me, when I say that EQN isn't going after EQ/EQ2 fans, I mean those that ONLY want EQ/EQ2 and aren't willing to try anything remotely different. Reading many of the comments by older gamers here, I don't believe I'm too far off.
Some simply want that 10-15 year old game design, with upgraded art that fits what they believe EQ should look like, with maybe some newer/updated tech/systems as well. Specifically, I see many longing for EQ's early years.
Yet SOE said they wanted players to choose which game was right for them, not ditch EQ/EQ2 for the newer "better" model that made the other two irrelevant.
EQ/EQ2 are still great games, but from what I see, most wanting to play "EQ" no longer play them due to the changes. That's where I start using "era" to try and figure out what specifically people mean when they say "EQ".
Not surprising, a lot of the suggestions during those panels did make their way into EQN in some form. Maybe not exactly as suggested, but in a way that could still appeal to many. Sort of, people don't know what they want until someone tells them.
Millions have played EQ games, and the majority have long since moved on. Many more have never gave the franchise a second look. To me, if someone had gave me two list of features of Vanilla EQ and Vanilla WoW and what was expected to achieve things, I most likely would of picked WoW. However, EQ was so much more memorable for me and I'm glad that is where my experience began. That experience can't be magically created by an art style or some mechanics. It is an overal feeling and that is what they seem to have in mind for EQN. Not the same or better, but great all on its own.
Goes to the "stat" thrown out that says the #1 thing people remember fondly and reason they left being corpse runs. That is a huge deal. Most seems to enjoy the feature, yet most also left the game relatively quickly once new games without the feature came out. That makes it hard for a company to figure out what to do for future games.
Those claiming there is ZERO connection between EQ/EQ2 and EQN are simply being hard headed or haven't looked into the game enough to know better. Or what they consider "EQ" is so specific that again, unless we see some serious copying, they won't be happy.
I fall back to something like Final Fantasy. I have no clue how many FF games are in the franchise, but I can easily say that not every single one is remotely the same as the others, nor do they all appeal to every fan of the franchise. Some want the entire "EQ" package made into a new game, while others like myself want a new game within the "EQ" verse, which is what EQN is.
Should EQN incorporate early EQ, current EQ, EQ2 day 1, EQ2 expansion 10? Where at what? Can't simply be "we want it all" or only XYZ. They can't tailor make a game for individuals. Although they can try to make a game with enough variety that it may be enough to entertain many for a long time.
Yet there are fans that have remained with EQ for 16+ years. Do they change the game or make a new one that might not be something the current fans actually playing the games want and instead go after those that left years ago? It isn't very straight forward.
If EQ/EQ2 were closed down and 100% failed, I see a possibility to going back to the roots as some want. But fact remains that many have stuck with EQ/EQ2 through all the changes and still call them home.
At some point, someone is going to get upset with a game not catering to them specifically.
EQN is an attempt to "try again" in a new way where old fans are welcome but new fans as well. They want to put as much "EQ" in EQN as possible, while accounting for the modern gamer, market, and tech.
From my end, EQ has been refined and has evolved, but not in a way that many have welcomed, hence its current low population.
They aren't ignoring anyone, they simply can't please everyone, including their own fans while making a product that attempt to become more than something running on fumes.
Pantheon is basically what many want, even borrowing some of the "EQverse" itself it looks like. Yet the support it has is pretty low. Not to say if they were handing millions and made a quality game that many wouldn't play it, but I think the risk is simply too high to see if maybe just maybe there are enough looking for that experience.
It is EQ lore meets Disney cartoon creator. No thank you. When i watched the big opening live stream of EQN announcement i left very confused. Action combat, what? This is a single player or maybe co-op console game at best. Sorry EQN move over, next please!
I am very much looking forward to SOE opening up a new EQ progression server this summer. Don't muck it up please Sony.
Though I share some interest in EQN, none of it is based on my previous love of EQ and EQ2. EQN is currently really really really under the radar on potential games I'm hyped about, but that's primarily due to the "vaporware" nature of the current game (I'm not saying it doesn't exist or won't be made, just that it's very far off from it). They haven't really shown much since the launch of Landmark, and what they have shown has primarily been tech demos and not actual gameplay.
I think you are looking at a small disgruntled segment of EQ players and treating them as if they represent some masses. I'm not sure I agree with that.
For one, the vast majority of EQ/EQ2 players left toes games to play WOW. So clearly try are not stuck playing nothing but classic EQ.
The base factor here is a game needs to be fun and appeal to players and that does not appear to be what EQN is offering.
You can see the same trend in SOE other games. Landmark, free realm, the agency, DCU, Clone wars, etc. Something just isn't right in their games and trying to blame the players isn't right.
Interest went from 8 to 0 when I found out it had Action Combat.
No longer interested in it, and that's ignoring the fact that the chance of it actually releasing is at beast 50%.
I am going to debunk all your points very simply.
EQN is following a nearly identical path that SOE did when they were developing tier spy themed MMO, The Agency.
You may dismiss everything with rationalizations, but there is a very solid foundation to worry that this game may be cancelled.
quite frankly you are reaching deep in several instances to justify the warning signs.
regardless of metaphors, EQN is possibly 7 years into development, the company has collapsed, they are begging players to design the game world (including the starting city!!) and there is almost nothing they can show about the game, even though they started hyping it 2 years ago. The fact that they have gone radio silent should be the most frightening thing about the games future.
You are right that games don't magically build themselves, but 7 years later and EQN cannot show gameplay? they have not even built the starting city?
again I point out that EQ2 did exactly what you are saying EQN is aiming to achieve and it failed miserably.
also I think you are dead wrong that EQ/SOE game populations are from not being able to please everyone or anything natural. You can pick just about any of their games and you will find key moments when SOE made sweeping changes that were aimed at attracting new players and it almost always impacted existing players in a negative way. The company has a long history of designing and redesigning their games for a mythical potential playerbase and not growing the base they have.
They have flat out said they understand they would lose players over sweeping changes, but they "needed" to grow their games. It cannot be stated any more clearly that yes they do design for nonexistent players at the expense of their existing players.
Not that I don't believe you but can you link when they said they knew they would lose players because of changes? There is a big difference between changing an existing MMO midstream and designing a new one that is different, in some ways, than existing titles.
Why would DGC release the same formula of game as any two of their previous ones?
I do agree with your opinion that the changes they made to EQ and EQ2 did more harm than good but since we can't know what would have been, it's only an opinion. This time they are bringing something different from the start. Well, quasi start since they smartly seen how the "WoW formula" was getting too cramped and redesigned to something that would set them apart and provide something fresh for players.
Should they have changed the name? No. What EQ "was" is under the interpretation of each player. Was it the artstyle? Was it the vast world? Was it the lore? The need for other players to get the most out of the game?
Take your pick. Playing EQ and/or EQ2 for n years gives no one the authority to proclaim what is, or is not, "EQ."
It seems that all players are the demographic for EQN but maybe you meant the specific, targeted demographic, in which case I would agree. Honestly, if they go through with their aim to have group content, a vast world, good crafting system, etc. I don't see why players of EQ 1/2 fans wouldn't be interested. Unless it's because of art style and aiming mechanic in which case that personal preference outreaches the tie to other EQ titles IMO.
My hype level is at 0/10.
SOE is not the same developer anymore,not even close.As a matter of fact their CHEAPER direction started several years ago when the news hot that SOE was losing boatloads of money.I saw it in expansions,one after another,i got tired of it and quit supporting SOE altogether.
They would have to release an absolute GEM to get me back on board and even them ,knowing their push more towards cash shop than their games,has totally turned me off.
Their team is far too small now to put out any triple A quality and their agenda has been to push out early access,non finished products,so why would anyone be hyped?
SOE is also known for the worst developer ever in releasing buggy games,so i think it obvious they have always had the agenda to push games out before they are ready,just more pronounced of late.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
What I am looking for in an MMO is what EQ used to be, Open world, no hand holding, grouping, defined roles and where the game is not locked down in one direction.
If you want a house, you get the necessary skills and build it. You want to craft items, you get the skills and you make items, items that are meaningful to the game throughout it's play. PvE, exploration, PvP, crafting or whatever floats your boat.
I want a game that does not have a hint book on the day of release or 1 million websites that promote the best way to "game" the game. I want a game that when my character goes to a place for a 1st time, the map is blank. I do not want to see ! ? " ^ % above anyones head. I want a game where faction means something, there should be places that I get chased out of or have to pay a large toll to get through. NPC's ? Good, Evil, kind, self centered, the whole nine yards. NPC's that want something for themselves, not just you. In the end, no I am not hyped about EQN or any current MMO's that cater to the short attention span world.
If that's the case you should look into EQN a little more deeply. A lot of the intent comments by the developers line up with what you are saying.
What i meant was EQN is not going after the over 30, community driven, group content favoring, trinity loving, interdependence reliant player base that is the EQ fans.
They're going after the under 25, MOBA loving, Twitch watching, solo playing, get in and out in 15-30 minutes, game hopping, unable to commit, patience lacking player base.
I don't blame them since it is a business and i don't believe there are enough original EQ fans to support a new title. EQ fans just have to come to grips with reality. The franchise you helped build is no longer for you.