Are Everquest vets suffering from stockholm syndrome?

Foomerang

When I read posts from angry EQ vets (and for some reason they are almost always angry), they seem to be longing for an mmo where they can once again experience communal suffering. They reminisce fondly about forced grouping, corpse runs, grinding for months, camping a single mob for days, getting griefed by other guilds ie trained, out tagged on mobs etc.

All of those things sound pretty awful to me. Now I know EQ is famous for having one of the most blatant skinner box style game designs of any mmo. Do you think that warped these folks into thinking this was all good? The rat that pushed the button knowing that a treat could come out if they kept at it. All the while starving itself to death.

That type of psychological impact is quite powerful. We see it everyday in threads popping up by generally bitter people who cant stand the way it is now and just want their skinner box back.

SHould we be more understanding of this condition? I know when I see those threads my kneejerk reaction is to shake my head and plan a counter. But is that really the right thing to do? Maybe we should help these folks the same way we'd help anyone suffering from a psychological condition.

But maybe thats incredibly offensive and I am really sorry if anyone takes this in the wrong way. It just seems there are people out there who are impossible to please and at what point do we realize its not some game thats going to fix them. Because I think that game broke them in the first place.

Malabooga

Its no secret EQ/WoW worked of conditioning people, that was their modus operandi.

nolf

Originally posted by Foomerang

When I read posts from angry EQ vets (and for some reason they are almost always angry), they seem to be longing for an mmo where they can once again experience communal suffering. They reminisce fondly about forced grouping, corpse runs, grinding for months, camping a single mob for days, getting griefed by other guilds ie trained, out tagged on mobs etc.

All of those things sound pretty awful to me. Now I know EQ is famous for having one of the most blatant skinner box style game designs of any mmo. Do you think that warped these folks into thinking this was all good? The rat that pushed the button knowing that a treat could come out if they kept at it. All the while starving itself to death.

That type of psychological impact is quite powerful. We see it everyday in threads popping up by generally bitter people who cant stand the way it is now and just want their skinner box back.

SHould we be more understanding of this condition? I know when I see those threads my kneejerk reaction is to shake my head and plan a counter. But is that really the right thing to do? Maybe we should help these folks the same way we'd help anyone suffering from a psychological condition.

But maybe thats incredibly offensive and I am really sorry if anyone takes this in the wrong way. It just seems there are people out there who are impossible to please and at what point do we realize its not some game thats going to fix them. Because I think that game broke them in the first place.

LOLOLOLOLOLOL

Are the bitter MMO-vet masses the equivalent of BDSMers who just can't find a dominatrix?

I myself yearn for things from the early days of MMOs, but I damn sure don't lament the progress that has been made.

No floggings for me, please!

Rydeson

     Everyone has an opinion, and everyone differs from their likes and dislikes..   One could easily turn this around and contest that all the new gamers are still attached by the umbilical cord, and need to be spoon fed 24/7, compared to games in the past that didn't babysit you..  However, to keep this post from going south, and to explain once again why some old gamers such as myself like EQ (or similar) vs. most of the modern games, I'll cover a few areas you brought up..

1. Forced grouping.  Every MMO I've played had forced groping in one form or another in selected areas..  EQ had it, SWG had it, WoW has it, Rift and SWTOR has it.. etc etc..  I played original EQ for year and had to luxury to either solo in a number of areas, or group up to achieve a goal..  The ONLY viable issue one might have is some classes were highly disadvantaged in soloing "trash" mobs, and there I will concede that EQ failed to allow all classes equal ability to solo yard trash.. 
2. Corpse runs are subjective.. Some even believe that what WoW does is too harsh..  Was EQ's corpse runs harsh? YES, generally speaking, but depending on who you knew and the groups you might of been in, a corpse run was a minor inconvenience.. 
3. Again here we argue that "grinding" is subjective..  Each person has a tolerance on how much repetitive action is acceptable before it gets labeled a grind..  I can't think of a game I ever played that didn't have some form of "grinding".. Grinding for faction?  Grinding for tokens?  Grinding (Farming) for resources..  etc etc..
4. Camping a single mob for days or weeks?  That is just the nature of the beast of "random" spawning..  The other option is what?  Ring the door bell and tell the big bad wolf to come out so you can kill him? Personally I don't see the issue with this one at all..  In fact it actually increases the sense of value when it does happen, IMO..  If epic mobs and quest mobs are a dime a dozen, and are super common what value do they really have?

     Then to imply that conditioning is the cause of all this is rather funny..  Could some people be effected from ANY type of gaming mechanics that promote conditioning?  Sure, but this isn't any different then any online activity..  Chatrooms have issues, Facebook games employ gaming psych mechanics.. Smart phone apps program cash shop tricks to get people to pay to play.. etc etc..  Again, every game I've ever played has some form of "trap" to get people to spend their money, the trick here is to be aware of the trap in the beginning and not be suckered into it..  Most people I know have a hard time seeing the traps in games, even after they are pointed out..  oh well.. 

 

     Now as for me actually liking older games..

• I like personal stat numbers to actually mean something such as strength dictating how much weight you can carry.. If you are a gnome warrior, don't expect to wear heavy bronze armor like the Barbarian or Ogre.. YES, one should become encumbered if they are overweight.. This is just a role playing desire that is subjective.. I personally find it too far fetched to justify that a player can carry 5 shields, 10 swords, along with 30,000 coins and still fight like a ninja.. (shrug)
• I like micro managing my character such as making sure I have food and drink on my character.. YES, I want that role playing mechanic back.. If you become hungry or thirsty, it should impact your character in some form.. Was EQ perfect in this.. Naaa, but this too is subjective, because I believe there are multiple forms of implicating such a feature..
• Traveling should be something you endure, or go find a taxi..  I"ve played both a druid and many other classes in EQ, and enjoyed the insta-port, and the long trek across the sea..  Some people want instant travel to everywhere, while others want it to be more realistic for immersion sake.. Neither side is right or wrong, and surely you can't say that those that enjoy the run across the plains must be mentally unstable..

     The question I have for you is..  Why do you play certain games..  Social value?  Co-op value?  Solobility?  Is it possible that some just don't LIKE the same things you like?  Some like real time strategy, and some like turn based strategy..  Some like PvP and some prefer PvE..  It looks like you are viewing older vets with blinders, assuming the worst without actually getting to know the players.. 

Vesavius

Originally posted by Foomerang

 

But maybe thats incredibly offensive and I am really sorry if anyone takes this in the wrong way

 

I don't think that's true, is it? Your OP is clearly an effort to offend a set group of players, in both content and and tone.

I don't even care about that tbh, but at least be honest about it. You're not 'sorry', if an EQ vet is offended it's clearly objective achieved.

 

Kiyoris

people who cant stand the way it is now

 

EQ didn't try to rip off your money like some of today's MMO do.

 

Vindictus MMO:

Real Casino:

 

Quirhid

Some psychologist, I don't remember who, did experiments few decades ago with three groups of puppies. In short, one group was treated nicely by his staff, one badly and the third one got both randomly. At the end of the experiment the group of puppies that was the most attached and most eager to please the staff was not the first group as you would expect, but the third one.

Obviously there is no chance such tests could be approved to be made with human subjects, even these tests were deemed unethical, but I don't doubt for a second that the these tests would give the same results if done with humans.

Malabooga

Originally posted by Kiyoris

people who cant stand the way it is now

 

EQ didn't try to rip off your money like some of today's MMO do.

 

Vindictus MMO:

Real Casino:

 

Now is the time to mention endless camping of bosses and miniscule drop rates and long spawn times. Oh yeah, they did it a bit differently, by letting you in a casino at 15/month but gave you very limited "spins". Also those spins required huge amount of time in addition for just one spin and you HAD to hang out in casion ALL the time, and that is deemed as "awesome" feature.

Its sooooo ironic.

Quirhid

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by Foomerang

But maybe thats incredibly offensive and I am really sorry if anyone takes this in the wrong way

I don't think that's true, is it? Your OP is clearly an effort to offend a set group of players, in both content and and tone.

I don't even care about that tbh, but at least be honest about it. You're not 'sorry', if an EQ vet is offended it's clearly objective achieved.

Isn't it offensive when the "EQ vets" (huge generalization, I know) bash the players of modern games day in day out?

Bladestrom

Originally posted by Malabooga
Its no secret EQ/WoW worked of conditioning people, that was their modus operandi.

Stockholm syndrome, its so obvious, the pattern fits perfectly lol.  awesome OP.

Loktofeit

 

Suffering from it? No. The EQ flagellates relish every moment of it.

AwDiddums

Originally posted by Foomerang

When I read posts from angry EQ vets (and for some reason they are almost always angry), they seem to be longing for an mmo where they can once again experience communal suffering. They reminisce fondly about forced grouping, corpse runs, grinding for months, camping a single mob for days, getting griefed by other guilds ie trained, out tagged on mobs etc.

All of those things sound pretty awful to me. Now I know EQ is famous for having one of the most blatant skinner box style game designs of any mmo. Do you think that warped these folks into thinking this was all good? The rat that pushed the button knowing that a treat could come out if they kept at it. All the while starving itself to death.

That type of psychological impact is quite powerful. We see it everyday in threads popping up by generally bitter people who cant stand the way it is now and just want their skinner box back.

SHould we be more understanding of this condition? I know when I see those threads my kneejerk reaction is to shake my head and plan a counter. But is that really the right thing to do? Maybe we should help these folks the same way we'd help anyone suffering from a psychological condition.

But maybe thats incredibly offensive and I am really sorry if anyone takes this in the wrong way. It just seems there are people out there who are impossible to please and at what point do we realize its not some game thats going to fix them. Because I think that game broke them in the first place.

I suppose the fixation we EQ vets feel can be similar to those ppl who love riding the old steam trains, or the vintage car collector, or someone who finds black and white movies more fulfilling than your modern Hollywood blockbuster.

 

Bladestrom

Originally posted by AwDiddums

Originally posted by Foomerang

When I read posts from angry EQ vets (and for some reason they are almost always angry), they seem to be longing for an mmo where they can once again experience communal suffering. They reminisce fondly about forced grouping, corpse runs, grinding for months, camping a single mob for days, getting griefed by other guilds ie trained, out tagged on mobs etc.

All of those things sound pretty awful to me. Now I know EQ is famous for having one of the most blatant skinner box style game designs of any mmo. Do you think that warped these folks into thinking this was all good? The rat that pushed the button knowing that a treat could come out if they kept at it. All the while starving itself to death.

That type of psychological impact is quite powerful. We see it everyday in threads popping up by generally bitter people who cant stand the way it is now and just want their skinner box back.

SHould we be more understanding of this condition? I know when I see those threads my kneejerk reaction is to shake my head and plan a counter. But is that really the right thing to do? Maybe we should help these folks the same way we'd help anyone suffering from a psychological condition.

But maybe thats incredibly offensive and I am really sorry if anyone takes this in the wrong way. It just seems there are people out there who are impossible to please and at what point do we realize its not some game thats going to fix them. Because I think that game broke them in the first place.

I suppose the fixation we EQ vets feel can be similar to those ppl who love riding the old steam trains, or the vintage car collector, or someone who finds black and white movies more fulfilling than your modern Hollywood blockbuster.

 

nothing wrong with that either.  Where it does go wrong is where the fan of the black and white film swears films are not as good as they used to be.

tawess

Originally posted by Vutar
No, we are suffering from good games syndrome. I know, a lot of you have no idea what that is, after all you are probably too young to know what a good game is. Just go back to your shallow mobile/facebook game and we'll keep enjoying some of the best mmos of all time.

This is cute... Look i love Space Harrier as much as the next guy/gal... But that does not make it by default a good game...

 

In the same way both UO and EQ were not good games... ground breaking.. Yes... but in the end a victim of the limits of their time.

 

That does not invalidate that you can enjoy the gameplay, but i would be very careful about trying to slam mobile/FB games down when they both can replicate those games that people hold up as "the golden age"

 

Old games where difficult to mask the lack of content and to make progression slower... Traits they had inherited from their "fathers" the arcade games. Because you know.. those original micro-transaction games that where designed to suck your wallet dry and have you asking to put in more...

Waterlily

The fact people feel the need to attack a 16 year old game and their playerbase, in 2015, says everything you need to know about the current state of MMO.

There are thousands of new MMO, because your experience is so disappointing, that you barely manage to play the same MMO for more than a year. Meanwhile EQ is celebrating it's 16th year of existence.

Fail.

Bladestrom

Originally posted by Waterlily

The fact people feel the need to attack a 16 year old game and their playerbase, in 2015, says everything you need to know about the current state of MMO.

There are thousands of new MMO, because your experience is so disappointing, that you barely manage to play the same MMO for more than a year. Meanwhile EQ is celebrating it's 16th year of existence.

Fail.

  lol 'people'  you should read : The Oslo Syndrome: Delusions of a People Under Siege

you see there nothing wrong with liking EQ, but when you start declaring its better than all new games...

BadSpock

I dunno Foom, nostalgia is a very powerful force.

Ask anyone over the age of 75 about anything.

 

I heard something that made me pause, I found it to be quite truthful and also quite sad. I was watching Meet the Press last Sunday, they were talking about cop vs. citizen violence and race, as well a homophobia and gay marriage, and one of the guest panel members said something like (only half-jokingly I'm sure):

"You know, if we kick everyone over the age of 60 out of this country, we won't be dealing with these social discrimination issues anymore."

 

Point is - it's really, really damn near impossible to change a person's long held beliefs.

Not really worth trying.

EQ will always be the best MMO ever made to some folks, they will always reflect joyfully on the gameplay and systems that today we would call tedious and arduous, and they'll never accept modern, progressive standards - often lashing out quite fiercely against any perceived threat to their long-held notions and beliefs.

 

Malabooga

Originally posted by Vutar

Originally posted by Malabooga

Originally posted by Vutar

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Vutar

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Vutar
No, we are suffering from good games syndrome. I know, a lot of you have no idea what that is, after all you are probably too young to know what a good game is. Just go back to your shallow mobile/facebook game and we'll keep enjoying some of the best mmos of all time.

"LA, LA, LA, LA, LA, LA, LA, LA, LA, LA, I'M NOT LISTENING! LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA..." What you meant to say, right?

Clam down there little guy. I'm sure your facebook/mobile game is quite wonderful. Just run along back to it now. After all, you only need to pay 4.99 for more a few more lives!! I'm sure you'll beat it this time...

Yeah, because facebook and mobile games are all that we can comprehend, and playing EQ makes you intelligent, right.

Please... Even in Eve Online I get better trashtalk than this. But keep at it, bro. You'll only get better with practice.

 

Trash talk? Who is doing that? I'm sorry that I hurt your feelings. Hang in there little guy. I'm sure one day your generation will wake up and realize how they have been duped into accepting some of the most shallow games in history as entertainment. I really do feel sorry for you. The height of your video game experience will be candy crush...

Well, you still havent waken up after 16 years.

And i must add that vast majority of your generation HAS woken up.

Its ironic how you just further validate OP.

The ironic thing is that you are proving my point about the mobile game generation being so shallow. In your little world you actually think that someone who enjoys an old game has to have Stockholm Syndrome.  That is like me starting a post claiming that people who play mobile games have ADHD. Then claiming its true over and over because of the popularity of mobile games. it would be a stupid generalization but someone such as yourself would believe it. After all, it's on the internet!!!

 

Ohhh, if it was only that....

but when you start proclaiming that EQ was only "real" MMO and best thing since slice bread, and games suck because theyre not just like EQ....then you have a Stockholm Syndrome.

I didnt see anyone proclaiming that stuff about CCS lol And nobody is that delusional about CCS

people accept CCS for what it is. You dont accept EQ for what it was.

Kiyoris

How do you suggest EQ players take today's MMO serious when the first person to the level cap in GW2 did it in 2 days in the headstart.

Really. Tell me how to take an MMO where you reach the level cap before the game is even out serious. Sorry, I can't

Flyte27

I would say that most EQ players think that if there is no real obstacles in your path then victory is fairly hollow.  Usually great achievements in human life come at great sacrifice.  Thats not to say video games are ever a great achievement, but to simulate that feeling in a game you need to also simulate the difficulties to overcome.  If everything comes quick and easy then you are missing a big part of the path to the achievement.  Thats not to say that todays games aren't better for you health wise or that they can't be fun.  They just don't offer the same experience some might be looking for.

NapkinBox

I don't know if I would call it a psychological disorder or anything. What's wrong with believing EQ did things better than MMORPGs today? Perhaps it did; maybe gamers these days are just more willing to eat up all the casual bullshit developers continue to deliver. Either way, I don't think it matters. Let the EQ players play EQ, and let the modern gamers hop to every new game that comes out. Because that's what I'll be doing.

Broomy

I agree with the OP 100%.  I can't stand the old-school players and their "But things were so much better back then" lamenting.  No it wasn't .  It was poor game design and being that games like EQ were the front runners of the MMO genre, no one knew any better.

 

But based on the responses here I can see that the Stockholm Syndrome is real.

Malabooga

Originally posted by Vutar

Originally posted by Malabooga

Originally posted by Vutar

Originally posted by Malabooga

Originally posted by Vutar

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Vutar

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Vutar
No, we are suffering from good games syndrome. I know, a lot of you have no idea what that is, after all you are probably too young to know what a good game is. Just go back to your shallow mobile/facebook game and we'll keep enjoying some of the best mmos of all time.

"LA, LA, LA, LA, LA, LA, LA, LA, LA, LA, I'M NOT LISTENING! LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA..." What you meant to say, right?

Clam down there little guy. I'm sure your facebook/mobile game is quite wonderful. Just run along back to it now. After all, you only need to pay 4.99 for more a few more lives!! I'm sure you'll beat it this time...

Yeah, because facebook and mobile games are all that we can comprehend, and playing EQ makes you intelligent, right.

Please... Even in Eve Online I get better trashtalk than this. But keep at it, bro. You'll only get better with practice.

 

Trash talk? Who is doing that? I'm sorry that I hurt your feelings. Hang in there little guy. I'm sure one day your generation will wake up and realize how they have been duped into accepting some of the most shallow games in history as entertainment. I really do feel sorry for you. The height of your video game experience will be candy crush...

Well, you still havent waken up after 16 years.

And i must add that vast majority of your generation HAS woken up.

Its ironic how you just further validate OP.

The ironic thing is that you are proving my point about the mobile game generation being so shallow. In your little world you actually think that someone who enjoys an old game has to have Stockholm Syndrome.  That is like me starting a post claiming that people who play mobile games have ADHD. Then claiming its true over and over because of the popularity of mobile games. it would be a stupid generalization but someone such as yourself would believe it. After all, it's on the internet!!!

 

Ohhh, if it was only that....

but when you start proclaiming that EQ was only "real" MMO and best thing since slice bread, and games suck because theyre not just like EQ....then you have a Stockholm Syndrome.

I didnt see anyone proclaiming that stuff about CCS lol And nobody is that delusional about CCS

people accept CCS for what it is. You dont accept EQ for what it was.

 

At this point I'm sure that you have no idea what Stockholm Syndrome even is.

now go back and read OP again.

Kiyoris

Originally posted by Broomy

I agree with the OP 100%.  I can't stand the old-school players and their "But things were so much better back then" lamenting.  No it wasn't .  It was poor game design and being that games like EQ were the front runners of the MMO, no knew any better.

 

But based on the responses here I can see that the Stockholm Syndrome is real.

Suggest a better MMO then.

Vesavius

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by Foomerang

But maybe thats incredibly offensive and I am really sorry if anyone takes this in the wrong way

I don't think that's true, is it? Your OP is clearly an effort to offend a set group of players, in both content and and tone.

I don't even care about that tbh, but at least be honest about it. You're not 'sorry', if an EQ vet is offended it's clearly objective achieved.

Isn't it offensive when the "EQ vets" (huge generalization, I know) bash the players of modern games day in day out?

 

Huge difference in criticising a game and criticising a person or a group of people though.

 

Flyte27

I feel like the only feeling people will accept is happiness these days. 

The other human emotions are all important and part of a fun game experience IMO.

Lets not forget this is just a simulation.  You aren't actually having anything bad happening to you in a game.  You are just having emotions triggered from things that are going on in it.