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" easily the best all-around MMO in the buy-to-play bracket"..Is it?
Belgaraath
Member UncommonPosts: 3,204
I'm reacting to the article that this site posted about the 5 best BTP games with GW2 at #1 and ESO at #2.
I'll state right up front that ESO is currently my favorite MMO. It has improved so much since launch, the combat and diversity of the builds suits me, and I love the exploration feel to it.
Guild Wars 2 was one of my favorite MMOs for the first 2-3 months, but quickly faded to me and everyone I know because once you got to lets say level 20ish, the progression of skills felt stale. I was pretty much already using the same skills I had already attained over and over again. In ESO, I'm constantly trying new skills and changing on the situation. For example, from level 1-15, I was a Sorcerer Tank with one hand and shield wearing heavy armor. Then at level 15 I equipped a healing staff for my second weapon and started shifting more of my points to Magica instead of just Health and Stamina. Then around level 40, I started encountering more Deadra, so I started picking and leveling skills that help with that. Then I switched to a BOW for my second weapon to allow better long range DPS for PVP when not doing PVE, but maintained my short range one hand and shield sorcerer tank build for my first skill slot. In fact I have several builds I easily switch out with a mod for solo tanking, heal with root builds, pure heal builds, PVP, etc).
This is one of the things that differentiates ESO from GW2 was that I felt my character constantly evolving and adapting. I didn't get that with GW2. Also I felt like as you level, it felt the same as every level below you with regard to the type of tasks you were doing in the world. The world didn't feel as dynamic as they initially advertised.
To what extent has those two points improved since Launch? Does the world feel even more dynamic than it did at launch? Has the feeling of progression improved so you aren't getting most everything you care about skill wise in the first 20-25 levels?
This was such a beautiful game, my favorite aesthetically, but wondering if it has improved in those areas. What other things have improved so much that if I got bored at the 2nd or 3rd month, its changed like ESO has (example Justice System) where I would want to give it another try?
Thanks.
There Is Always Hope!
Comments
thanks, though my friends and I would highly disagree with you as it added an element with stealing and consequences of such (along with a new skill line) that made the cities feel more immersive to us..not to mention it will be followed soon by the ability for players to go after those who steal..so its just a fun experience to us...but regardless, I'm curious to get answers to my questions specifically about GW2 and its improvements that make it #1 in that author's eyes.
There Is Always Hope!
Problem is that there are not many REAL B2P MMOs out there. I know that this site adds Diablo III, a couple of MOBAs an more recent the iterations of big single-player RPGs to the list (DA:I, but also Destiny), but those are not actual MMOs but more co-op games and in best multi-player games...
About your GW2 comment and stale character progression - can't agree more. I made a necromancer and around 30 I was pretty much done gathering new skills. There was only one I really wanted and I kept leveling for it and obtained it around 38. I kept on playing till around mid 50s and there I totally gave up on the game. It totally has no character progression after a certain point. Some classes take a bit longer than others to hit that point, but in general between 25 and 35 you have the skills you want for your character.
In the other thread about top 3 over hyped MMOs GW2 is mentioned quite often (by me as well) and I think that only shows how good and bad the game is for all of us. It seems that GW2 is one of those games that you either love or hate - there's no real in-between for it...
i think the one point were gw2 delivers a bit more than eso right now is
- massive amount of content
- incredibly polished
I agree that even at launch GW2 felt polished to me. Has the new content added to the quality of play in specific aspects for the base game, or is this end game content and/or additional levels for those who had reached end level?
There Is Always Hope!
im not that far in the game... i think 2 years down the road eso will be as polished...than i can switch again :-)
one thing i like gw2>eso is that the combat in gw2 feels a lot more visceral and impactful and the animations look a lot better than in eso...thats what keeps combat for me entertaining... honestly, even mount and blade has the more fun combat for me than eso...thats where i think eso lacks the most - not the skill system, that is great, but the feel and look of the combat....
I've played both ESO and GW2 (GW2 considerably more) but yes.. GW2 is by far the best in the B2P bracket.
The character progression is ... well its fast to say the least. You can easily get the skills you want for your character (initially) and gear isn't hard to come by, but the evolution of your character goes farther than that.
Just because you may have all your weapon and utility skills doesn't mean you've utilized your character in all its forms, or found the character thats right for your playstyle. Once you find that you have progression based titles with rewards, and gear based rewards not including different styles. Then you have your home instance based rewards which you can also work for, and so on. The progression is there, but its a sideways progression in most cases instead of an incremental progression.
In ESO I felt like there was more increased incremental progression, but the combat didn't feel as strong to me, and despite the amount of options you had per character, I really felt like the choices I really liked for each of my characters was about the same. They all felt too similar to me. I spent a long time just trying to find a class and build I liked, and once I found it, it was easy to replicate something similar on each character.
I don't feel that way in GW2, each character is an experience in itself, and being good with one of them fully is a kind of personal progression that I feel most games don't have these days.
Sorry, but youc ant really comment unless you got to lvl 20. Starter zones are simple by design. Classes have quite a few builds, from facetanking everything to being glass cannon, ranged and melee. Traits are really what differentiate builds.
You say you swap a lot of stuff around in ESO, but i dont see much difference. Just that you have to grind out every skill line, which gets tedious "ooh i want to try two hander, lets grind it out". Wanna try magicka build? You better have grinded out light armor.
Also theres a lot more geargrind in ESO. Be it you craft or farm raids for it.
But....if you want another class in ESO....thats where it fails the test, unless you want to repeat long grind to VR14. Since if you go quest/story wise you already did all 3 alliances, and since its very linear with no optional leveling paths its eaither do all, exact same quests.....again.... or just plain mob grind. Quests are good.....but not THAT good.
Also the respec cost in ESO....another grind. They either should remove it alltogether, or provide much more options other than all/upgrades. PS: Ah yes, theyre adding respec scrolls in cash shop.
FIrst of all dude, you are not the rules of the forums when someone is allowed to comment. We can comment whenever we feel like it.
Second, I got to end level of the original base game (not sure what level is max anymore), but I reached the end of the main story so I think I am more than qualified to comment. What I said was that around level 20-25ish, I had attained most of the skills Id be using for the rest of the game and that lack of skill progression for the other 80% of the game bored me (and many others). The poster above talks about vertical and horizontal progression. Not sure if I care. I just want to feel like I am progressing....and I didn't feel that way since every level feels the same as the level prior to it amplified by the lack of skill progression.
Finally, I don't agree at all....and you just contradicted the poster above you who basically felt it was a strength of GW2 to get most of your skills right away and then develop through Gear Grinding (which I don't agree with him either). You are also saying that the more variety of skill lines ESO offers to develop your character, the more tedious it is? That just seems very illogical to me. All MMOs by the way are basically gear grinds to some extent, GW2 and ESO included.
Anyway, it appears from the responses here not much has really changed in the base game...just more content added and varying opinions about combat preferences between the two games, so I guess its back to ESO.
There Is Always Hope!
Ummm....
TESO isn't even in the top 3 for Elder Scroll games, let alone being the #1 B2P MMO.
ESO is hands down the best MMO out currently and just happens to now be B2P.
The character and skill development is second to none, the amount of content is amazing, and the PvP is epic. Crafted gear is some of the best in game, the setting is immersive, so much solo and group content and group content that's challenging.
Say way what you will, but GW2 has nothing on it, except it's for more casual players. ESO is more of core gamers game. Trinity FTW.
Gw2 is all around great. TESO has shitty animations. Stop being so butthurt. Move along, no need to create separate whine thread. Gw2 > TESO. Its probably generating more profit without "premium" service and with the same cash shop.
P.S: If TESO was "hands down best mmo" whatever, it would've retained P2P model, just like FFXIV and EVE Online are doing atm. So no, it is not handsdown the best MMO. It is however the best MMO for you. That just speaks how much of a bad taste you have, but hey, who am i to judge :P If you really crave trinity, I don't know why you moved away from WoW. Every trinity game is basically the same...
Yup, GW2 is not for you, not grindy enough.
I played GW2 for a bout 2 months when it was released then got a bit tired and stopped.
I tried ESO some time ago but didn't really enjoy it at all... just too bland for my liking and I found the combat mechanics horrible.
I tried GW2 a few months ago again and I have been playing since. So polished and SO MANY things to do.
Each to their own opinion though.
..Cake..
Well talking b2p mmo its really only a choice between ESO and GW1/2 atm unless you add in the semi-mmos like Destiny etc. Luckily both GW2 and ESO are amazing games, each with a very different feel.
I think the OP is somewhat underplaying how good GW2 is though, its an incredibly polished game on so many levels and it has a depth and complexity to it that I think the OP has not understood. In particular for me its spvp shines, it is so much better than any instanced pvp in any other mmo and the WvW is also pretty good if you stick away from just zerging (which is boring).
Which one is the best depends on my mood on any given day, how much lag there is in Cyrodiil, how many times I have died because my weapon swap doesn't work in ESO, or how many times skyhammer has popped in unranked.
I dont know the full state/features of ESO but to me these are some of the reasons GW2 got the #1:
Pretty much this is why i stopped playing unranked. Turns out, ranked is a lot more fun on tournament only maps (E.g. no skyhammer, courtyard, spirit watch)
I can't really comment on the PVP in GW2 because I didn't play it. I admit I'm more of a PVE guy. For me again it was that feeling of progression that was missing for so many as you leveled deeper into the game. I will say that I got to end level with only 1 class so perhaps I would have felt different with another class. I did enjoy the instanced PVP in Warhammer, but Warhammer realm PVP was destroyed by those battleground like instances because the realms were ghost towns. I think ESO is hesitant to follow that path and wants focus on the 3 faction PVP. Personally I think they should at least add dueling.
Anyway, I may download the game just to try another class to see if I feel differently and see how things if at all have changed in the base game since the first 2-3 months...but if progression staleness still feels the same in my personal opinion, than I wont stay long.
FYI, ESO weapon swapping delay is a thing of the past. That was fixed many patches ago...as well as the weightiness of the combat..as it feels much more weight now. There are still some lag issues that sometimes occurs, but they are working on improving it.
There Is Always Hope!
I don't find a solid story, exploration, skill and character development/choices beyond gear grind, and quests with meaning grindy.
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1) this is nice, but not really important to me since ESO patches when I'm at work or sleeping.
2) I agree that I like this and ESO should implement the same, but they are afraid to take away attention from the 3 faction PVP in that they might become ghost towns which is exactly what happened with Warhammer. Also, the 3 faction PVP really is the center of that game and Cyrodil has so much PVE, dungeons, exploration opportunities etc where you can pretty much ignore the PVE faction and live in that zone..as its almost like a PVP server from other games...as that zone is huge.
3) ESO still has lag problems, true...but it isn't as bad as some say. I've started dabbling in the PVP area a bit over the last couple of weeks, got all the way with Daggerfall Covenant to the Elder Scroll Castle of the Aldmeri..and experienced no lag...but I know its something they are still working on improving. Considering how many people are on the screen at the same time and how I can still play on max settings with FPS always over 30-40, to me thats pretty impressive.
4) This is good news.
5) A good feature, not the reason i would stay or leave.
6) Same as in most games including ESO.
There Is Always Hope!
Gw2 has solid story, tons more exploration, plenty of character choices (not same exact weapons with same exact skills on all classes) and dynamic world which doesnt shrink to 1 zone once you reach max level.
Oh yeah, grinding new weapons/CP in 1 zone is awesome-sauce.
ESO will be decent....once they churn out 3-4 DLCs and keep promise those are level neutral. Craglorn gets old....fast.
1 thing that ESO is far far behind GW2 is - longivety.
Two words that do not belong in the same sentence....
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?
Yes they do, but you don`t understand why. And that is good, less ignorant people makes GW2 community better.
Is it worth a play through?! Absolutely! It is really well done. Will it keep you going? No, not at all once you hit cap.
Also, it wont be changing in the xpac. The philosophy is all about more grind, not more challenge.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
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