Please, feel free to enlighten everyone how chess has less depth if you play 1 game in 2 hours than if you play 1 game in 15 minutes.
That premise is absurd and false.
When you figure that one out, you can start thinking on what actually makes chess deep.
You are right, your strawman sounds absurd. What Axehilt said though was, by playing more, you make more decisions; and thus you experience more of that depth.
Youre just repeating same flaw that leads to what you quoted.
AND remember that youre comparing chess to WoW. To be precise, you should compare chess when opponent does EXACTLY SAME moves every game to WoW.
You will see that his theory goes to even more absurd area.
I'm not sure why you discredit situations like "preying on pve players" or outnumbering your opponent. The fact that those things exist add to the depth of the game. You're arbitrarily narrowing the scope to "fair, competitive pvp."
No, I'm not. The point is, you don't need a good build to prey on PvE players therefore it gives a novice player the impression that the number of viable builds is higher than it actually is.
Viability means it can be used effectively. Just because the way it's being used effectively isn't fair, competitive fights doesn't mean it isn't viable. If the game offers multiple ways to play and that leads to more possible builds to use, then that's depth.
I already said, I am not narrowing the scope to only "fair" engagements.
Choices don't always increase depth. That's where balance comes in. Depth based on the subset of interesting and viable choices within all the possible ones. You add classes, races, skills and activities to your game, it doesn't automatically mean the game is deep. That is perhaps the most common mistake people make with game depth. It is not based on strictly the amount choices you can make.
A choice between shooting yourself in the head or not, is not really a choice at all, get it? -Crude, I know, but it should prove my point.
Even if chess has just 32 pieces on the board on two sides with 6 unique pieces, it is still incredibly deep. Magic the Gathering has over 13 thousand cards in it yet the metagame is such that tournaments are usually dominated by less than a dozen (first tier) deck builds with slight variations (my MTG playing friend assures me). At a time when balance was at an all time low, just 2-4 deck builds.
In Eve as in MTG, not every build is as viable as the next even if it gets the job done. You can beat newbies with pretty much anything. It doesn't mean what you're flying is any good. A knife is not as viable as a gun, even though one side outnumbers the other by 5 to 1. And both weapons are lethal.
having 5 knives beating 1 gun is just as viable as having 1 super gun beting 1 gun.
Mentioning MTG is pointless, quantity does not mean quality, remind us again, what format are top level competitions?
And even in those formats only few decks (2-3) are viable. And thats done ON PURPOSE just to sell more cards because most cards are worthless (except for collecting reasons). And you cannot just have 4 friends with all common deck gang up on 1 opposing player, so yeah, option to bring "5 knives" to beat "1 gun" doesnt even exists (well, at least in competitive play)
And you see, brining 5 knives IS a decision, more meaningful decision than anythig you can find in WoW, but in EvEs scope its very small.
I'm not sure why you discredit situations like "preying on pve players" or outnumbering your opponent. The fact that those things exist add to the depth of the game. You're arbitrarily narrowing the scope to "fair, competitive pvp."
No, I'm not. The point is, you don't need a good build to prey on PvE players therefore it gives a novice player the impression that the number of viable builds is higher than it actually is.
Viability means it can be used effectively. Just because the way it's being used effectively isn't fair, competitive fights doesn't mean it isn't viable. If the game offers multiple ways to play and that leads to more possible builds to use, then that's depth.
I already said, I am not narrowing the scope to only "fair" engagements.
Choices don't always increase depth. That's where balance comes in. Depth based on the subset of interesting and viable choices within all the possible ones. You add classes, races, skills and activities to your game, it doesn't automatically mean the game is deep. That is perhaps the most common mistake people make with game depth. It is not based on strictly the amount choices you can make.
A choice between shooting yourself in the head or not, is not really a choice at all, get it? -Crude, I know, but it should prove my point.
Even if chess has just 32 pieces on the board on two sides with 6 unique pieces, it is still incredibly deep. Magic the Gathering has over 13 thousand cards in it yet the metagame is such that tournaments are usually dominated by less than a dozen (first tier) deck builds with slight variations (my MTG playing friend assures me). At a time when balance was at an all time low, just 2-4 deck builds.
In Eve as in MTG, not every build is as viable as the next even if it gets the job done. You can beat newbies with pretty much anything. It doesn't mean what you're flying is any good. A knife is not as viable as a gun, even though one side outnumbers the other by 5 to 1. And both weapons are lethal.
I think you need to rethink what you mean by viability then. If you can successfully use a build to go after people doing PVE, that build is viable. It doesn't matter if there's a better build you can be using.
In Eve as in MTG, not every build is as viable as the next even if it gets the job done. You can beat newbies with pretty much anything. It doesn't mean what you're flying is any good.
What if you intentionally fly shit ships and try to beat newbies in bigger ships, I caught a newbie in a Tengu (nice shiney ship) while flying an interceptor (fast, needs help to kill things) that does almost no dps but I held him down and he could not tank the NPC instance he was doing, much lolz were had. Yes, the newbie was in Nullsec and yes he was farming gold, yes I was hunting newbies farming gold in nullsec. Brave Newbies Inc.
Comments
Full loot or patial loot for me otherwise the game get pretty boring and fast..
Youre just repeating same flaw that leads to what you quoted.
AND remember that youre comparing chess to WoW. To be precise, you should compare chess when opponent does EXACTLY SAME moves every game to WoW.
You will see that his theory goes to even more absurd area.
having 5 knives beating 1 gun is just as viable as having 1 super gun beting 1 gun.
Mentioning MTG is pointless, quantity does not mean quality, remind us again, what format are top level competitions?
And even in those formats only few decks (2-3) are viable. And thats done ON PURPOSE just to sell more cards because most cards are worthless (except for collecting reasons). And you cannot just have 4 friends with all common deck gang up on 1 opposing player, so yeah, option to bring "5 knives" to beat "1 gun" doesnt even exists (well, at least in competitive play)
And you see, brining 5 knives IS a decision, more meaningful decision than anythig you can find in WoW, but in EvEs scope its very small.
I think you need to rethink what you mean by viability then. If you can successfully use a build to go after people doing PVE, that build is viable. It doesn't matter if there's a better build you can be using.
What if you intentionally fly shit ships and try to beat newbies in bigger ships, I caught a newbie in a Tengu (nice shiney ship) while flying an interceptor (fast, needs help to kill things) that does almost no dps but I held him down and he could not tank the NPC instance he was doing, much lolz were had. Yes, the newbie was in Nullsec and yes he was farming gold, yes I was hunting newbies farming gold in nullsec.
Brave Newbies Inc.
you don't know .. flogging dead horses like this is the life blood of traffic here.