Well here's the thing, most vets, like myself, in their 30's and 40's have been multi-tasking life and their games since our teens. Only difference being instead of a real job and family, we had, back then, after school homework, sports/recreation, girl/boyfriends and part-time jobs. Case in point, real vets don't need games dumbed down to fit a certain life-style, as we have always factored in our game time with real life.
Calling all cars! Calling all cars!
Availability Cascade in progress at the corner of False Consensus Street and Cognitive Bias Boulevard.
All available units, please respond. Suspect is armed and dangerous. All available units, please respond.
What an awesome quote.
My 2 Coppers:
You see I played EQ day one, I played beta UO, I consider myself a vet. Those games were poorly designed. Contrary to popular assumption here they weren't popular because of corpse runs, real item loss, trains, 48 hour jboot camps or 24 hour naked wipe recoverys from the plane of fear. They were popular because they were the first real 3D persistent worlds we got to see. Wow's rise was a direct result of correcting a good deal of those poorly designed mechanics.
When Dvinn camped the zone line we actually thought we could beat him with enough low level players despite the pile 40+ bodies sitting under him. When someone needed help we just intuitively helped them without concern for kill stealing or mob aggro. We simply didn't know the mechanics so WE WERE FREE TO IMAGINE THIS WAS REAL LIVING BREATHING WORLD. We simply didn't know how route and mechanical the simulation was so we gazed in wonder and astonishment at what we "thought" it was. And for some reason some to this day think that magic is able to be captured again, they think that all of those poorly designed punitive game mechanics were the source of their full on immersion.
One of the few fantastic early design decisions McQuaid made was to not allow players to know the actual formulas for the combat mechanics. He knew rightfully so that Min/Maxing would kill the magic, suspend belief and turn the game into the number chasing skinner boxes we have today.
That said while I do think crusty old vets that hold those old game designs in such high esteem have rose colored lens hindsight, they aren't entirely wrong about their being something off about the current crop. There is an awful lot of "Sugar" in modern MMOs and they are probably a little bit to short attention span focused than is probably healthy for the genre. I place the blame for that squarely on the shoulders of the old crop of MMOs, had they not been so over the top punitive and time sink focused the pendulum wouldn't have swung so hard and fast in the other direction.
To quote Dullahan:
NAILED IT!
What do I think MMO's need today?
Better AI would be number one. People would not be worrying about timesinks or longer dungeons or crushing penalties, if they just had more intelligent gameplay. And I think its been proven that PvP isn't the answer. While it may be more intelligent, it is also way more douchebaggery and distasteful, to all those except the ones who enjoy that.
Second would be better community. But that would be on us, wouldn't it.
If we could change those two things, I bet we wouldn't see half the pining for the "Good ole days" that we do now.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
What I do see... a bunch of newbies who comment on things they don't know about. Half of you don't even know what MMO means. You guys didn't play the original games. You didn't know how much variety they offered. Today's games typically have less some how. All these "new" things, but they still have less. But hey, how would you know? You aren't a "vet". Enjoy your uninformed opinions.
Oh please, there are plenty of people that played those old games. They just don't agree with the total exxaggeration from a small niche of people of how good the good old days were. Opinions are opinions, people like you need to stop harping about how your opinion of good is better than others.
And who are you, exactly, to dismiss others memories or experiences as "exaggeration"? Why? Because you don't agree, so therefor, they couldn't have enjoyed themselves that much, and they must be exaggerating?
You don't know what others remember, nor how they remember it. So, you really aught to stop making comments that presume you do.
I did enjoy the slower progression of older MMORPGs. I did enjoy the slower leveling. I did feel it was the golden age of the genre.
Here's the thing. I keep seeing the same strawman arguments being put forth, by a lot of the same names who've been making the same argument for a long time now - even though they've already been told the flaws in their thinking.
The strawman is that older MMO gamers felt "content being longer made it more challenging". No. No, and once more for emphasis... No.
For one, more challenging content is going to take longer by virtue of being more challenging. The more challenging it is, the longer it's going to take to complete. Something tha'ts easy takes very little time to finish. Something that's more difficult takes longer. I don't know why this is such a difficult concept to grasp for some of you. It's pretty self-evident. and applies in just about any situation.
For another, people are projecting their own biases toward newer MMOs onto older games. You have to realize, generally speaking, people weened on older MMOs did not gauge their enjoyment of a game on "how quickly they could finish content". It was not "all about getting to the end game". It was all about getting together with others and doing something fun for an hour or 4, whatever the activity happened to be. "The Real Game" didn't start at level cap. It started at level 1, and included everything the game offered... not just the stuff that got you to level cap the most efficiently.
We were not on a narrow race-track to some finish line. We were in a virtual world, with tons of things to do.
Old-school gamers were, almost literally, all about the journey, not the destination. You'd reach the destination in time. The more important thing was to have fun along the way.
These days, people tend to gauge their enjoyment by how quickly they can level. Those days, people gauged fun by the encounters and experiences they had while logged in, whatever it was they were doing in that time.
In short... If you are looking back on older MMOs through the lens of the typical modern MMO gamer, then you are completely missing the point.
Now, what would be so much nicer - not to mention intellectually honest - is if, rather than trying to tell us why we liked the old-school MMOs, if you'd simply ask us. There are people on these forums who are quite capable of explaining themselves very well. They can give you examples. They can give you explanations. The thing is... you also have to be willing to set your own biases and prejudices and misconceptions aside, open your mind and actually read and comprehend what they are telling you. If you read what they're saying, and all you're thinking is "Nope. Nope. They just thought longer content made it more challenging", then you've completely missed the point.
LMAO totally proves my point. And no, longer is not synonymous to difficult. You sir, are the one that cannot grasp that concept. Taking a year to get to max level in a game is not difficult. It's tedious. Sitting in one spot for hours every day just to get partial level is not difficult. Taking an hour to run from one zone to another is not difficult. I could go on and on.
And who are you to presume how people play there games? And who are you to tell other people their opinions are flawed? Who are you to tell them how they should think?
You are the one that should open up your mind. You are so biased towards your own opinion it's not even funny. It's not freaking black or white. All gamers NEW or OLD play their games differently. They all enjoy their games in their own way. So instead of shoehorning your opnions on to others, speak for your freaking self.
I made a statement that is true to this website, that alot of these posters seem to equate longer means difficulty and I'll stand by that. You can clearly see that in this thead.
Let me ask you why do you want to get to max level so badly? Im assuming ur response is gonna be endgame content. if thats the only reason why even have levels or stuff why not start at where the game begins? which is nowadays max level. The 1-49 experience is completly different from the lvl 50 (Max) lvl experience its pretty much a different game. So why should they even bother having lvl 11-49 stuff why not start everyone at 50? and have all zones desinated to lvl 50 experience of easy to extreamly hard difficulty zones? This way there loads more content for players because those low lvl zones are pointless after u pass them level wise??? Why not have very easy lvl 50 zones for newbies and soloing then easy zones for harder solo experience or small groups and so on moving all the way up to the hardest raids zones almost deemed impossible to finish xcept for those foolish enough to try?
This seems like the better way to make MMOs imo.
As the poster said before you marked in red, the real game for the older games started the moment u created your character this is no longer the case anymore in the modern MMOs and this is what there lacking imo.
Games nowadays dont feel like a living breathing world anymore like MMO's should be. I guess the best way to sum it up is there like your playing a single player game like Diablo with a party system thrown in but feels a great deal more umm dull i guess to put it.
Fast content is pointless you get board because you will do them same 4 instances so many times and will never want to run them again. Unsub and the business loose money. MOP instances and WOTLK instances drove me bat shit insane because they were pointless. They required no more skill than can you mash buttons as fast as possible.
hmm .. if i am bored .. i won't be playing.
15 min fun content is great .. like D3 random dungeons. In fact, i don't have time for long dungeons ... 15 min is about right. I don't mind dungeons cut up into little pieces with a save point though.
I often see mmo vets bemoan current titles because dungeons and the like can be soloed or done in 5-10 mins unlike in the past where it was face-stompingly hard (I'm assuming). Nothing wrong wrong with this, I like a challenge myself, but thinking about it further I realized something. Isn't this content BETTER for vets? It's probably not a stretch to say this content was designed with you in mind. By now, most vets are in their 30s or 40s with a family, job, etc with very sparse time.
If challenging/long content WAS developed vets wouldnt be able to participate in it because of their limited time. So shouldnt we be seeing the opposite? Shouldnt vets be praising new developers for making content they can solo between a hectic life?
They seem to think longer, tedious, time consuming, etc is synonymous to challenging and difficult.
Not all of us!
I very much appreciate bite sized content I can nibble away at during lunch or in the few hours I may have to play at night.
I also really appreciate a good 4+ hour romp through whatever I can sink my teeth into when I actually have (make) the time to do so.
That's good, good to know people enjoy just playing games.
I am going to put it this way which might be a better way to explain things. I dont enjoy playing Checkers against my Step Daughter and beating here in 15 minutes. I do it because she enjoys playing with me even when I beat her. I do enjoy playing a game of chess with a friend that might take about 1 hour to do and requires thinking.
To me Checkers is a game like Diablo 3 go smash stuff all over the place and outside the hard setting the game is easy a faceroll game much like WOW instances.
To me Chess is like an MMO should be, VanillaTBC WOW instances that took 60 to 90 minutes to play and takes me using my brain to play.
Dude anything you do you have to use your brain.
Would you enjoy playing checkers against someone that beats you in 15 mins?
What if someone beats you in chess in 1 min? Or you beat them in 1 min?
Bad anaolgy is bad analogy. My point still stands. Longer is not synonymous to challenge and difficulty.
Call me crazy but yes i would, it means i have a challenge for myself to beat him or atleast make him work more for it to win, Games dont offer that nowaday they literaly tell you how to play so you dont even need to think anymore.
If people arnt challenged there brains dont develope to be better so all they can do is the same old stuff. Easy way to put it if you if you lift weights for an hour every day your arm develops to handle lifting weights and you can make them heavier and heavier as you go, if you stop lifting weights your body slowly reverts back since its no longer need those extra muscles. Your brain works the same ways if your not constantly challenging it its not gonna develope to cope with those challenges, if u dont use it will go back to using minimum energy to get things that u need done. MMOs are pretty much killing the brain off with how thye currently work there no thought process u get told what to do and people just simply follow what the messages in the middle of there screen is telling them. No thought process = no development = Eventualy Braindead people (If they removed what they did in real life which is only real stimulate for the mind and just played current day MMO for a couple years i dont think they be able to hand everyday life anymore atleast for the first few months till there mind catches back up)
I often see mmo vets bemoan current titles because dungeons and the like can be soloed or done in 5-10 mins unlike in the past where it was face-stompingly hard (I'm assuming). Nothing wrong wrong with this, I like a challenge myself, but thinking about it further I realized something. Isn't this content BETTER for vets? It's probably not a stretch to say this content was designed with you in mind. By now, most vets are in their 30s or 40s with a family, job, etc with very sparse time.
If challenging/long content WAS developed vets wouldnt be able to participate in it because of their limited time. So shouldnt we be seeing the opposite? Shouldnt vets be praising new developers for making content they can solo between a hectic life?
Well, if the dungeon just is some trash mobs and a boss making the combat long and slow just would make things more boring, particularly with the trashmobs.
But a frickin huge dungeon that is so large you actually can get really lost in it is awesome. And yes, that is time consuming so I don't say every dungeon in a game should be like this but even the busier vets with jobs and families can usually takes a few hours off at the weekend.
There are 3 different factors here: Difficulty, size of the dungeon and time to complete it. And a good game should have both hard and easy dungeons (with risk Vs reward factored in) and small and huge dungeons. As for the time consument that more havo to with how the combat of the game works, in some games even a trashmob takes a long time to kill while in others the bosses go down really fast. I prefer something in between thos extremes myself.
Anyone who used to play the older MMOs do remember those huge dungeons, and I think any MMO have space for at least a few of those.
For me, it's all about Epicness. If content is quick and easy, it's not fun, and it's certainly not Epic. I want hour long dungeons that are difficult, give me choices and reward or punish accordingly. I want content that encourages community, rather then encourages being a selfish gimme gimme douche. If that means I can only do 1 dungeon a day instead of 5, so be it.
What I do see... a bunch of newbies who comment on things they don't know about. Half of you don't even know what MMO means. You guys didn't play the original games. You didn't know how much variety they offered. Today's games typically have less some how. All these "new" things, but they still have less. But hey, how would you know? You aren't a "vet". Enjoy your uninformed opinions.
Oh please, there are plenty of people that played those old games. They just don't agree with the total exxaggeration from a small niche of people of how good the good old days were. Opinions are opinions, people like you need to stop harping about how your opinion of good is better than others.
And who are you, exactly, to dismiss others memories or experiences as "exaggeration"? Why? Because you don't agree, so therefor, they couldn't have enjoyed themselves that much, and they must be exaggerating?
You don't know what others remember, nor how they remember it. So, you really aught to stop making comments that presume you do.
I did enjoy the slower progression of older MMORPGs. I did enjoy the slower leveling. I did feel it was the golden age of the genre.
Here's the thing. I keep seeing the same strawman arguments being put forth, by a lot of the same names who've been making the same argument for a long time now - even though they've already been told the flaws in their thinking.
The strawman is that older MMO gamers felt "content being longer made it more challenging". No. No, and once more for emphasis... No.
For one, more challenging content is going to take longer by virtue of being more challenging. The more challenging it is, the longer it's going to take to complete. Something tha'ts easy takes very little time to finish. Something that's more difficult takes longer. I don't know why this is such a difficult concept to grasp for some of you. It's pretty self-evident. and applies in just about any situation.
For another, people are projecting their own biases toward newer MMOs onto older games. You have to realize, generally speaking, people weened on older MMOs did not gauge their enjoyment of a game on "how quickly they could finish content". It was not "all about getting to the end game". It was all about getting together with others and doing something fun for an hour or 4, whatever the activity happened to be. "The Real Game" didn't start at level cap. It started at level 1, and included everything the game offered... not just the stuff that got you to level cap the most efficiently.
We were not on a narrow race-track to some finish line. We were in a virtual world, with tons of things to do.
Old-school gamers were, almost literally, all about the journey, not the destination. You'd reach the destination in time. The more important thing was to have fun along the way.
These days, people tend to gauge their enjoyment by how quickly they can level. Those days, people gauged fun by the encounters and experiences they had while logged in, whatever it was they were doing in that time.
In short... If you are looking back on older MMOs through the lens of the typical modern MMO gamer, then you are completely missing the point.
Now, what would be so much nicer - not to mention intellectually honest - is if, rather than trying to tell us why we liked the old-school MMOs, if you'd simply ask us. There are people on these forums who are quite capable of explaining themselves very well. They can give you examples. They can give you explanations. The thing is... you also have to be willing to set your own biases and prejudices and misconceptions aside, open your mind and actually read and comprehend what they are telling you. If you read what they're saying, and all you're thinking is "Nope. Nope. They just thought longer content made it more challenging", then you've completely missed the point.
LMAO totally proves my point. And no, longer is not synonymous to difficult. You sir, are the one that cannot grasp that concept. Taking a year to get to max level in a game is not difficult. It's tedious. Sitting in one spot for hours every day just to get partial level is not difficult. Taking an hour to run from one zone to another is not difficult. I could go on and on.
And who are you to presume how people play there games? And who are you to tell other people their opinions are flawed? Who are you to tell them how they should think?
You are the one that should open up your mind. You are so biased towards your own opinion it's not even funny. It's not freaking black or white. All gamers NEW or OLD play their games differently. They all enjoy their games in their own way. So instead of shoehorning your opnions on to others, speak for your freaking self.
I made a statement that is true to this website, that alot of these posters seem to equate longer means difficulty and I'll stand by that. You can clearly see that in this thead.
Let me ask you why do you want to get to max level so badly? Im assuming ur response is gonna be endgame content. if thats the only reason why even have levels or stuff why not start at where the game begins? which is nowadays max level. The 1-49 experience is completly different from the lvl 50 (Max) lvl experience its pretty much a different game. So why should they even bother having lvl 11-49 stuff why not start everyone at 50? and have all zones desinated to lvl 50 experience of easy to extreamly hard difficulty zones? This way there loads more content for players because those low lvl zones are pointless after u pass them level wise??? Why not have very easy lvl 50 zones for newbies and soloing then easy zones for harder solo experience or small groups and so on moving all the way up to the hardest raids zones almost deemed impossible to finish xcept for those foolish enough to try?
This seems like the better way to make MMOs imo.
As the poster said before you marked in red, the real game for the older games started the moment u created your character this is no longer the case anymore in the modern MMOs and this is what there lacking imo.
Games nowadays dont feel like a living breathing world anymore like MMO's should be. I guess the best way to sum it up is there like your playing a single player game like Diablo with a party system thrown in but feels a great deal more umm dull i guess to put it.
LOL, quite a bit of assumptions you're making about me eh? Figures. So proving my point automatically puts me in this soapbox you seem to put everyone that doesn't agree with you in now? Nice rant there though but It has nothing to do with my point.
The real game? So you're telling us when we log into any new games these days it's all FAKE? We're playing made up games? It's all in our heads or dreams? Too f****** funny.
Who are you to say how MMO's should be? A living breathing world to you is totally different from the person next to you. It might be dull to you but it sure as hell fun for millions of other people. That's the problem with some of you posters. Instead of seeing that other people have different views on any subject. You are so narrow minded that you can't see past your noses.
I often see mmo vets bemoan current titles because dungeons and the like can be soloed or done in 5-10 mins unlike in the past where it was face-stompingly hard (I'm assuming). Nothing wrong wrong with this, I like a challenge myself, but thinking about it further I realized something. Isn't this content BETTER for vets? It's probably not a stretch to say this content was designed with you in mind. By now, most vets are in their 30s or 40s with a family, job, etc with very sparse time.
If challenging/long content WAS developed vets wouldnt be able to participate in it because of their limited time. So shouldnt we be seeing the opposite? Shouldnt vets be praising new developers for making content they can solo between a hectic life?
They seem to think longer, tedious, time consuming, etc is synonymous to challenging and difficult.
Not all of us!
I very much appreciate bite sized content I can nibble away at during lunch or in the few hours I may have to play at night.
I also really appreciate a good 4+ hour romp through whatever I can sink my teeth into when I actually have (make) the time to do so.
That's good, good to know people enjoy just playing games.
I am going to put it this way which might be a better way to explain things. I dont enjoy playing Checkers against my Step Daughter and beating here in 15 minutes. I do it because she enjoys playing with me even when I beat her. I do enjoy playing a game of chess with a friend that might take about 1 hour to do and requires thinking.
To me Checkers is a game like Diablo 3 go smash stuff all over the place and outside the hard setting the game is easy a faceroll game much like WOW instances.
To me Chess is like an MMO should be, VanillaTBC WOW instances that took 60 to 90 minutes to play and takes me using my brain to play.
Dude anything you do you have to use your brain.
Would you enjoy playing checkers against someone that beats you in 15 mins?
What if someone beats you in chess in 1 min? Or you beat them in 1 min?
Bad anaolgy is bad analogy. My point still stands. Longer is not synonymous to challenge and difficulty.
Call me crazy but yes i would, it means i have a challenge for myself to beat him or atleast make him work more for it to win, Games dont offer that nowaday they literaly tell you how to play so you dont even need to think anymore.
If people arnt challenged there brains dont develope to be better so all they can do is the same old stuff. Easy way to put it if you if you lift weights for an hour every day your arm develops to handle lifting weights and you can make them heavier and heavier as you go, if you stop lifting weights your body slowly reverts back since its no longer need those extra muscles. Your brain works the same ways if your not constantly challenging it its not gonna develope to cope with those challenges, if u dont use it will go back to using minimum energy to get things that u need done. MMOs are pretty much killing the brain off with how thye currently work there no thought process u get told what to do and people just simply follow what the messages in the middle of there screen is telling them. No thought process = no development = Eventualy Braindead people (If they removed what they did in real life which is only real stimulate for the mind and just played current day MMO for a couple years i dont think they be able to hand everyday life anymore atleast for the first few months till there mind catches back up)
They tell you how to play or you watch videos? Big difference there buddy. You going to tell me you went into the story primal battles in FFXIV without being over geared without any knowledge of the fights with 3 other people in the same situation and not having to use your brain? And tha'ts just the story mode. How about the hard, you certainly turned your brain off and beat the fight because SE TOLD you how to beat those fights right? I could go on and on. You can name any game, and someone can name something that totally disproves your no challenge no brain insinuation. Pretty funny though, made me chuckle a bit.
It has to do with a sense of accomplishment. Many people won't ever understand what that feels like because they have lower standards.
A guy who gets an art degree and then works a $12 an hour job until the age of 70, is never going to understand a guy that gets an engineering degree and spends time and distance away from his family in order to send his kids through college and retire at 50.
Vets who like longer content, do so because they consider MMORPGs a hobby. Generally, they are a committed, long-term players and have interest in details such as lore and exploring even when no "reward" is to be obtained.
Others consider MMORPGs, entertainment, like watching a tv show or movie. They mostly prefer free MMOs as well because they don't really care about what they are playing, only the fact that they can do what they can for free then move on to the next game.
No a 15 minute dungeon is a waste of time. That means there is nothing that makes you think. I done all of WOW dungeons and they are a waste of time from WOTLK on. Cata at least had some good content but not good enough.
Yes FFXIV Duty Finder is WOW's LFD. Both are shit. FFXIV has Party finder which you can say how you are doing the content and what type of players you are looking for. Its like WOW's new group finder and where WoW came up with the Group Finder.
Fast content is pointless you get board because you will do them same 4 instances so many times and will never want to run them again. Unsub and the business loose money. MOP instances and WOTLK instances drove me bat shit insane because they were pointless. They required no more skill than can you mash buttons as fast as possible.
Duration isn't challenge. It's duration. Only challenge makes you think, and that's independent of duration. All the early MMORPGs I played with their long-lasting open world dungeons certainly involved a lot less thinking than a typical modern WOW dungeon.
Boredom happens. The devs are going to produce a certain amount of content and it will only remain interesting for so long before players are bored of it. But speaking from experience if you take that same content and simply multiply out how long players are forced to engage with it, they're going to be bored much faster because you've essentially watered down the beer.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
No a 15 minute dungeon is a waste of time. That means there is nothing that makes you think. I done all of WOW dungeons and they are a waste of time from WOTLK on. Cata at least had some good content but not good enough.
Yes FFXIV Duty Finder is WOW's LFD. Both are shit. FFXIV has Party finder which you can say how you are doing the content and what type of players you are looking for. Its like WOW's new group finder and where WoW came up with the Group Finder.
Fast content is pointless you get board because you will do them same 4 instances so many times and will never want to run them again. Unsub and the business loose money. MOP instances and WOTLK instances drove me bat shit insane because they were pointless. They required no more skill than can you mash buttons as fast as possible.
Duration isn't challenge. It's duration. Only challenge makes you think, and that's independent of duration. All the early MMORPGs I played with their long-lasting open world dungeons certainly involved a lot less thinking than a typical modern WOW dungeon.
Boredom happens. The devs are going to produce a certain amount of content and it will only remain interesting for so long before players are bored of it. But speaking from experience if you take that same content and simply multiply out how long players are forced to engage with it, they're going to be bored much faster because you've essentially watered down the beer.
Which would be a greater challenge for you and give you more of a sense of accomplishment? Running a mile or running a marathon?
No a 15 minute dungeon is a waste of time. That means there is nothing that makes you think. I done all of WOW dungeons and they are a waste of time from WOTLK on. Cata at least had some good content but not good enough.
Yes FFXIV Duty Finder is WOW's LFD. Both are shit. FFXIV has Party finder which you can say how you are doing the content and what type of players you are looking for. Its like WOW's new group finder and where WoW came up with the Group Finder.
Fast content is pointless you get board because you will do them same 4 instances so many times and will never want to run them again. Unsub and the business loose money. MOP instances and WOTLK instances drove me bat shit insane because they were pointless. They required no more skill than can you mash buttons as fast as possible.
Duration isn't challenge. It's duration. Only challenge makes you think, and that's independent of duration. All the early MMORPGs I played with their long-lasting open world dungeons certainly involved a lot less thinking than a typical modern WOW dungeon.
Boredom happens. The devs are going to produce a certain amount of content and it will only remain interesting for so long before players are bored of it. But speaking from experience if you take that same content and simply multiply out how long players are forced to engage with it, they're going to be bored much faster because you've essentially watered down the beer.
Which would be a greater challenge for you and give you more of a sense of accomplishment? Running a mile or running a marathon?
Depends, if I have to run that mile in less than 5 mins and can walk the marathon the whole way of course running that mile is more challenging. You see the context that you people can't seem to grasp. So simple yet totally goes over your heads.
What I do see... a bunch of newbies who comment on things they don't know about. Half of you don't even know what MMO means. You guys didn't play the original games. You didn't know how much variety they offered. Today's games typically have less some how. All these "new" things, but they still have less. But hey, how would you know? You aren't a "vet". Enjoy your uninformed opinions.
Oh please, there are plenty of people that played those old games. They just don't agree with the total exxaggeration from a small niche of people of how good the good old days were. Opinions are opinions, people like you need to stop harping about how your opinion of good is better than others.
And who are you, exactly, to dismiss others memories or experiences as "exaggeration"? Why? Because you don't agree, so therefor, they couldn't have enjoyed themselves that much, and they must be exaggerating?
You don't know what others remember, nor how they remember it. So, you really aught to stop making comments that presume you do.
I did enjoy the slower progression of older MMORPGs. I did enjoy the slower leveling. I did feel it was the golden age of the genre.
Here's the thing. I keep seeing the same strawman arguments being put forth, by a lot of the same names who've been making the same argument for a long time now - even though they've already been told the flaws in their thinking.
The strawman is that older MMO gamers felt "content being longer made it more challenging". No. No, and once more for emphasis... No.
For one, more challenging content is going to take longer by virtue of being more challenging. The more challenging it is, the longer it's going to take to complete. Something tha'ts easy takes very little time to finish. Something that's more difficult takes longer. I don't know why this is such a difficult concept to grasp for some of you. It's pretty self-evident. and applies in just about any situation.
For another, people are projecting their own biases toward newer MMOs onto older games. You have to realize, generally speaking, people weened on older MMOs did not gauge their enjoyment of a game on "how quickly they could finish content". It was not "all about getting to the end game". It was all about getting together with others and doing something fun for an hour or 4, whatever the activity happened to be. "The Real Game" didn't start at level cap. It started at level 1, and included everything the game offered... not just the stuff that got you to level cap the most efficiently.
We were not on a narrow race-track to some finish line. We were in a virtual world, with tons of things to do.
Old-school gamers were, almost literally, all about the journey, not the destination. You'd reach the destination in time. The more important thing was to have fun along the way.
These days, people tend to gauge their enjoyment by how quickly they can level. Those days, people gauged fun by the encounters and experiences they had while logged in, whatever it was they were doing in that time.
In short... If you are looking back on older MMOs through the lens of the typical modern MMO gamer, then you are completely missing the point.
Now, what would be so much nicer - not to mention intellectually honest - is if, rather than trying to tell us why we liked the old-school MMOs, if you'd simply ask us. There are people on these forums who are quite capable of explaining themselves very well. They can give you examples. They can give you explanations. The thing is... you also have to be willing to set your own biases and prejudices and misconceptions aside, open your mind and actually read and comprehend what they are telling you. If you read what they're saying, and all you're thinking is "Nope. Nope. They just thought longer content made it more challenging", then you've completely missed the point.
LMAO totally proves my point. And no, longer is not synonymous to difficult. You sir, are the one that cannot grasp that concept. Taking a year to get to max level in a game is not difficult. It's tedious. Sitting in one spot for hours every day just to get partial level is not difficult. Taking an hour to run from one zone to another is not difficult. I could go on and on.
And who are you to presume how people play there games? And who are you to tell other people their opinions are flawed? Who are you to tell them how they should think?
You are the one that should open up your mind. You are so biased towards your own opinion it's not even funny. It's not freaking black or white. All gamers NEW or OLD play their games differently. They all enjoy their games in their own way. So instead of shoehorning your opnions on to others, speak for your freaking self.
I made a statement that is true to this website, that alot of these posters seem to equate longer means difficulty and I'll stand by that. You can clearly see that in this thead.
Let me ask you why do you want to get to max level so badly? Im assuming ur response is gonna be endgame content. if thats the only reason why even have levels or stuff why not start at where the game begins? which is nowadays max level. The 1-49 experience is completly different from the lvl 50 (Max) lvl experience its pretty much a different game. So why should they even bother having lvl 11-49 stuff why not start everyone at 50? and have all zones desinated to lvl 50 experience of easy to extreamly hard difficulty zones? This way there loads more content for players because those low lvl zones are pointless after u pass them level wise??? Why not have very easy lvl 50 zones for newbies and soloing then easy zones for harder solo experience or small groups and so on moving all the way up to the hardest raids zones almost deemed impossible to finish xcept for those foolish enough to try?
This seems like the better way to make MMOs imo.
As the poster said before you marked in red, the real game for the older games started the moment u created your character this is no longer the case anymore in the modern MMOs and this is what there lacking imo.
Games nowadays dont feel like a living breathing world anymore like MMO's should be. I guess the best way to sum it up is there like your playing a single player game like Diablo with a party system thrown in but feels a great deal more umm dull i guess to put it.
Thats just it. They rush to end game in modern games for the harder content and convince themselves that its just the smart way to design a game, while 15 years ago games were just hard from level 1 and all the best stuff in them was achieved in groups. It wasn't about how long it took, it was about a challenge and the need to work together from start to finish. Shared adversity fosters community.
What I do see... a bunch of newbies who comment on things they don't know about. Half of you don't even know what MMO means. You guys didn't play the original games. You didn't know how much variety they offered. Today's games typically have less some how. All these "new" things, but they still have less. But hey, how would you know? You aren't a "vet". Enjoy your uninformed opinions.
Oh please, there are plenty of people that played those old games. They just don't agree with the total exxaggeration from a small niche of people of how good the good old days were. Opinions are opinions, people like you need to stop harping about how your opinion of good is better than others.
And who are you, exactly, to dismiss others memories or experiences as "exaggeration"? Why? Because you don't agree, so therefor, they couldn't have enjoyed themselves that much, and they must be exaggerating?
You don't know what others remember, nor how they remember it. So, you really aught to stop making comments that presume you do.
I did enjoy the slower progression of older MMORPGs. I did enjoy the slower leveling. I did feel it was the golden age of the genre.
Here's the thing. I keep seeing the same strawman arguments being put forth, by a lot of the same names who've been making the same argument for a long time now - even though they've already been told the flaws in their thinking.
The strawman is that older MMO gamers felt "content being longer made it more challenging". No. No, and once more for emphasis... No.
For one, more challenging content is going to take longer by virtue of being more challenging. The more challenging it is, the longer it's going to take to complete. Something tha'ts easy takes very little time to finish. Something that's more difficult takes longer. I don't know why this is such a difficult concept to grasp for some of you. It's pretty self-evident. and applies in just about any situation.
For another, people are projecting their own biases toward newer MMOs onto older games. You have to realize, generally speaking, people weened on older MMOs did not gauge their enjoyment of a game on "how quickly they could finish content". It was not "all about getting to the end game". It was all about getting together with others and doing something fun for an hour or 4, whatever the activity happened to be. "The Real Game" didn't start at level cap. It started at level 1, and included everything the game offered... not just the stuff that got you to level cap the most efficiently.
We were not on a narrow race-track to some finish line. We were in a virtual world, with tons of things to do.
Old-school gamers were, almost literally, all about the journey, not the destination. You'd reach the destination in time. The more important thing was to have fun along the way.
These days, people tend to gauge their enjoyment by how quickly they can level. Those days, people gauged fun by the encounters and experiences they had while logged in, whatever it was they were doing in that time.
In short... If you are looking back on older MMOs through the lens of the typical modern MMO gamer, then you are completely missing the point.
Now, what would be so much nicer - not to mention intellectually honest - is if, rather than trying to tell us why we liked the old-school MMOs, if you'd simply ask us. There are people on these forums who are quite capable of explaining themselves very well. They can give you examples. They can give you explanations. The thing is... you also have to be willing to set your own biases and prejudices and misconceptions aside, open your mind and actually read and comprehend what they are telling you. If you read what they're saying, and all you're thinking is "Nope. Nope. They just thought longer content made it more challenging", then you've completely missed the point.
LMAO totally proves my point. And no, longer is not synonymous to difficult. You sir, are the one that cannot grasp that concept. Taking a year to get to max level in a game is not difficult. It's tedious. Sitting in one spot for hours every day just to get partial level is not difficult. Taking an hour to run from one zone to another is not difficult. I could go on and on.
And who are you to presume how people play there games? And who are you to tell other people their opinions are flawed? Who are you to tell them how they should think?
You are the one that should open up your mind. You are so biased towards your own opinion it's not even funny. It's not freaking black or white. All gamers NEW or OLD play their games differently. They all enjoy their games in their own way. So instead of shoehorning your opnions on to others, speak for your freaking self.
I made a statement that is true to this website, that alot of these posters seem to equate longer means difficulty and I'll stand by that. You can clearly see that in this thead.
Let me ask you why do you want to get to max level so badly? Im assuming ur response is gonna be endgame content. if thats the only reason why even have levels or stuff why not start at where the game begins? which is nowadays max level. The 1-49 experience is completly different from the lvl 50 (Max) lvl experience its pretty much a different game. So why should they even bother having lvl 11-49 stuff why not start everyone at 50? and have all zones desinated to lvl 50 experience of easy to extreamly hard difficulty zones? This way there loads more content for players because those low lvl zones are pointless after u pass them level wise??? Why not have very easy lvl 50 zones for newbies and soloing then easy zones for harder solo experience or small groups and so on moving all the way up to the hardest raids zones almost deemed impossible to finish xcept for those foolish enough to try?
This seems like the better way to make MMOs imo.
As the poster said before you marked in red, the real game for the older games started the moment u created your character this is no longer the case anymore in the modern MMOs and this is what there lacking imo.
Games nowadays dont feel like a living breathing world anymore like MMO's should be. I guess the best way to sum it up is there like your playing a single player game like Diablo with a party system thrown in but feels a great deal more umm dull i guess to put it.
Thats just it. They rush to end game in modern games for the harder content and convince themselves that its just the smart way to design a game, while 15 years ago games were just hard from level 1 and all the best stuff in them was achieved in groups. It wasn't about how long it took, it was about a challenge and the need to work together from start to finish. Shared adversity fosters community.
Duration isn't challenge. It's duration. Only challenge makes you think, and that's independent of duration. All the early MMORPGs I played with their long-lasting open world dungeons certainly involved a lot less thinking than a typical modern WOW dungeon.
Boredom happens. The devs are going to produce a certain amount of content and it will only remain interesting for so long before players are bored of it. But speaking from experience if you take that same content and simply multiply out how long players are forced to engage with it, they're going to be bored much faster because you've essentially watered down the beer.
Which would be a greater challenge for you and give you more of a sense of accomplishment? Running a mile or running a marathon?
Depends, if I have to run that mile in less than 5 mins and can walk the marathon the whole way of course running that mile is more challenging. You see the context that you people can't seem to grasp. So simple yet totally goes over your heads.
So how are you, a person with low standards and expectations, going to be some kind of authority on what is a challenge and what is not, if you have never made or attempted any notable accomplishments?
Or are you acknowledging that you choose to walk a marathon because it's either too hard for you or too lazy to run it?
I often see mmo vets bemoan current titles because dungeons and the like can be soloed or done in 5-10 mins unlike in the past where it was face-stompingly hard (I'm assuming). Nothing wrong wrong with this, I like a challenge myself, but thinking about it further I realized something. Isn't this content BETTER for vets? It's probably not a stretch to say this content was designed with you in mind. By now, most vets are in their 30s or 40s with a family, job, etc with very sparse time.
If challenging/long content WAS developed vets wouldnt be able to participate in it because of their limited time. So shouldnt we be seeing the opposite? Shouldnt vets be praising new developers for making content they can solo between a hectic life?
They seem to think longer, tedious, time consuming, etc is synonymous to challenging and difficult.
Sarcasm? I hope so.
OP, you answered your own question when you said - "... I like a challenge myself ..." (you also assume a lot of nonsense)
It's pretty safe to say that if a task is completed solo and within 5-10 minutes on a regular basis that it's not a very challenging task. Now if the amount of time to complete the task by doing everything flawlessly takes 5-10 minutes, sure, but if flawless is possible that means something is predictable and again, probably not terribly challenging.
Which would be a greater challenge for you and give you more of a sense of accomplishment? Running a mile or running a marathon?
Running a mile within a min is a much greater challenge than finishing a marathon.
Sense we're talking about duration being a challenge or not, how about running both at a 10 minute pace? Which one is more challenging to do? A mile or a marathon (26.2 miles)?
Which would be a greater challenge for you and give you more of a sense of accomplishment? Running a mile or running a marathon?
The greater sense of accomplishment comes from the one you actually can complete. If running a mile is challenging running a marathon is impossible. Game design problems work in the other direction too, things can be too hard or too time consuming that they create an un-fun frustrating game to play.
Time is the penultimate consumed resource within an MMO and most people make the mistake of thinking of MMOs as closed ecosystems, they aren't. They can't be. Players are external actors and each of them brings to the table a different sized bar of this primary game defining resource: Time. Any balance around the consumption of this resource is already day one going to be unreliable as the primary Actors available time is massively variable across the entire playerbase.
Since most game developers don't want to create niche properties that limit who can play their games, they tend to target (with great reason) the lowest common denominator when balancing along this resource (Time). So yes dungeons are 15 minutes long not so you can get in and get out without having to interact with people, but so that you have more people to interact with!
It's funny, the answer to 'tedium' appears to be avoiding unique content that takes a long tim to progress through and to get to end game where you repeat the same bosses over and over and over and over and over and over and over.
I hate walking but I like treadmills it seems lol.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Ah wait that's not right, it's more like 1 hour walking through beautiful countryside followed by 49 hours walking on a treadmill > 49 hours walking through beautiful countryside followed by 1 hour on a treadmill. Perfect
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Which would be a greater challenge for you and give you more of a sense of accomplishment? Running a mile or running a marathon?
The greater sense of accomplishment comes from the one you actually can complete. If running a mile is challenging running a marathon is impossible. Game design problems work in the other direction too, things can be too hard or too time consuming that they create an un-fun frustrating game to play.
Time is the penultimate consumed resource within an MMO and most people make the mistake of thinking of MMOs as closed ecosystems, they aren't. They can't be. Players are external actors and each of them brings to the table a different sized bar of this primary game defining resource: Time. Any balance around the consumption of this resource is already day one going to be unreliable as the primary Actors available time is massively variable across the entire playerbase.
Since most game developers don't want to create niche properties that limit who can play their games, they tend to target (with great reason) the lowest common denominator when balancing along this resource (Time). So yes dungeons are 15 minutes long not so you can get in and get out without having to interact with people, but so that you have more people to interact with!
So, do you think that a person that feels finishing a mile is an accomplishment, respects a person that can finish running a marathon?
Or should people that can finish a marathon be put down or better yet, marathons should be done away with because running marathons are impossible?
Originally posted by Bladestrom Ah wait that's not right, it's more like 1 hour walking through beautiful countryside followed by 49 hours walking on a treadmill > 49 hours walking through beautiful countryside followed by 1 hour on a treadmill. Perfect
Yep. Anyone know what the starter area in Rift looks like from memory? I started beta, pushed through the first 5 zones in 10 minutes (or less), turned of the game and never went back. I've been waiting for a good MMO for a very long time.
Originally posted by Bladestrom Ah wait that's not right, it's more like 1 hour walking through beautiful countryside followed by 49 hours walking on a treadmill > 49 hours walking through beautiful countryside followed by 1 hour on a treadmill. Perfect
Yep. Anyone know what the starter area in Rift looks like from memory? I started beta, pushed through the first 5 zones in 10 minutes (or less), turned of the game and never went back. I've been waiting for a good MMO for a very long time.
Goodness you are fast. It takes me 10 minutes at least to make a character. o.O
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
Comments
To quote Dullahan:
NAILED IT!
What do I think MMO's need today?
Better AI would be number one. People would not be worrying about timesinks or longer dungeons or crushing penalties, if they just had more intelligent gameplay. And I think its been proven that PvP isn't the answer. While it may be more intelligent, it is also way more douchebaggery and distasteful, to all those except the ones who enjoy that.
Second would be better community. But that would be on us, wouldn't it.
If we could change those two things, I bet we wouldn't see half the pining for the "Good ole days" that we do now.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Let me ask you why do you want to get to max level so badly? Im assuming ur response is gonna be endgame content. if thats the only reason why even have levels or stuff why not start at where the game begins? which is nowadays max level. The 1-49 experience is completly different from the lvl 50 (Max) lvl experience its pretty much a different game. So why should they even bother having lvl 11-49 stuff why not start everyone at 50? and have all zones desinated to lvl 50 experience of easy to extreamly hard difficulty zones? This way there loads more content for players because those low lvl zones are pointless after u pass them level wise??? Why not have very easy lvl 50 zones for newbies and soloing then easy zones for harder solo experience or small groups and so on moving all the way up to the hardest raids zones almost deemed impossible to finish xcept for those foolish enough to try?
This seems like the better way to make MMOs imo.
As the poster said before you marked in red, the real game for the older games started the moment u created your character this is no longer the case anymore in the modern MMOs and this is what there lacking imo.
Games nowadays dont feel like a living breathing world anymore like MMO's should be. I guess the best way to sum it up is there like your playing a single player game like Diablo with a party system thrown in but feels a great deal more umm dull i guess to put it.
hmm .. if i am bored .. i won't be playing.
15 min fun content is great .. like D3 random dungeons. In fact, i don't have time for long dungeons ... 15 min is about right. I don't mind dungeons cut up into little pieces with a save point though.
Call me crazy but yes i would, it means i have a challenge for myself to beat him or atleast make him work more for it to win, Games dont offer that nowaday they literaly tell you how to play so you dont even need to think anymore.
If people arnt challenged there brains dont develope to be better so all they can do is the same old stuff. Easy way to put it if you if you lift weights for an hour every day your arm develops to handle lifting weights and you can make them heavier and heavier as you go, if you stop lifting weights your body slowly reverts back since its no longer need those extra muscles. Your brain works the same ways if your not constantly challenging it its not gonna develope to cope with those challenges, if u dont use it will go back to using minimum energy to get things that u need done. MMOs are pretty much killing the brain off with how thye currently work there no thought process u get told what to do and people just simply follow what the messages in the middle of there screen is telling them. No thought process = no development = Eventualy Braindead people (If they removed what they did in real life which is only real stimulate for the mind and just played current day MMO for a couple years i dont think they be able to hand everyday life anymore atleast for the first few months till there mind catches back up)
Well, if the dungeon just is some trash mobs and a boss making the combat long and slow just would make things more boring, particularly with the trashmobs.
But a frickin huge dungeon that is so large you actually can get really lost in it is awesome. And yes, that is time consuming so I don't say every dungeon in a game should be like this but even the busier vets with jobs and families can usually takes a few hours off at the weekend.
There are 3 different factors here: Difficulty, size of the dungeon and time to complete it. And a good game should have both hard and easy dungeons (with risk Vs reward factored in) and small and huge dungeons. As for the time consument that more havo to with how the combat of the game works, in some games even a trashmob takes a long time to kill while in others the bosses go down really fast. I prefer something in between thos extremes myself.
Anyone who used to play the older MMOs do remember those huge dungeons, and I think any MMO have space for at least a few of those.
LOL, quite a bit of assumptions you're making about me eh? Figures. So proving my point automatically puts me in this soapbox you seem to put everyone that doesn't agree with you in now? Nice rant there though but It has nothing to do with my point.
The real game? So you're telling us when we log into any new games these days it's all FAKE? We're playing made up games? It's all in our heads or dreams? Too f****** funny.
Who are you to say how MMO's should be? A living breathing world to you is totally different from the person next to you. It might be dull to you but it sure as hell fun for millions of other people. That's the problem with some of you posters. Instead of seeing that other people have different views on any subject. You are so narrow minded that you can't see past your noses.
They tell you how to play or you watch videos? Big difference there buddy. You going to tell me you went into the story primal battles in FFXIV without being over geared without any knowledge of the fights with 3 other people in the same situation and not having to use your brain? And tha'ts just the story mode. How about the hard, you certainly turned your brain off and beat the fight because SE TOLD you how to beat those fights right? I could go on and on. You can name any game, and someone can name something that totally disproves your no challenge no brain insinuation. Pretty funny though, made me chuckle a bit.
It has to do with a sense of accomplishment. Many people won't ever understand what that feels like because they have lower standards.
A guy who gets an art degree and then works a $12 an hour job until the age of 70, is never going to understand a guy that gets an engineering degree and spends time and distance away from his family in order to send his kids through college and retire at 50.
Vets who like longer content, do so because they consider MMORPGs a hobby. Generally, they are a committed, long-term players and have interest in details such as lore and exploring even when no "reward" is to be obtained.
Others consider MMORPGs, entertainment, like watching a tv show or movie. They mostly prefer free MMOs as well because they don't really care about what they are playing, only the fact that they can do what they can for free then move on to the next game.
Duration isn't challenge. It's duration. Only challenge makes you think, and that's independent of duration. All the early MMORPGs I played with their long-lasting open world dungeons certainly involved a lot less thinking than a typical modern WOW dungeon.
Boredom happens. The devs are going to produce a certain amount of content and it will only remain interesting for so long before players are bored of it. But speaking from experience if you take that same content and simply multiply out how long players are forced to engage with it, they're going to be bored much faster because you've essentially watered down the beer.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
This ...
Great example ... D3 hardcore high greater rifts.
Very short duration (limited to 15 min if you pass .. longer if you don't) ... but don't tell me there isn't challenges, and dire consequences.
Even the softcore rifts are hard ... and you have to play well to push to the higher levels. And again, 15 min each.
Which would be a greater challenge for you and give you more of a sense of accomplishment? Running a mile or running a marathon?
Depends, if I have to run that mile in less than 5 mins and can walk the marathon the whole way of course running that mile is more challenging. You see the context that you people can't seem to grasp. So simple yet totally goes over your heads.
Thats just it. They rush to end game in modern games for the harder content and convince themselves that its just the smart way to design a game, while 15 years ago games were just hard from level 1 and all the best stuff in them was achieved in groups. It wasn't about how long it took, it was about a challenge and the need to work together from start to finish. Shared adversity fosters community.
This guy has it right!
So how are you, a person with low standards and expectations, going to be some kind of authority on what is a challenge and what is not, if you have never made or attempted any notable accomplishments?
Or are you acknowledging that you choose to walk a marathon because it's either too hard for you or too lazy to run it?
Running a mile within a min is a much greater challenge than finishing a marathon.
Sarcasm? I hope so.
OP, you answered your own question when you said - "... I like a challenge myself ..." (you also assume a lot of nonsense)
It's pretty safe to say that if a task is completed solo and within 5-10 minutes on a regular basis that it's not a very challenging task. Now if the amount of time to complete the task by doing everything flawlessly takes 5-10 minutes, sure, but if flawless is possible that means something is predictable and again, probably not terribly challenging.
Sense we're talking about duration being a challenge or not, how about running both at a 10 minute pace? Which one is more challenging to do? A mile or a marathon (26.2 miles)?
The greater sense of accomplishment comes from the one you actually can complete. If running a mile is challenging running a marathon is impossible. Game design problems work in the other direction too, things can be too hard or too time consuming that they create an un-fun frustrating game to play.
Time is the penultimate consumed resource within an MMO and most people make the mistake of thinking of MMOs as closed ecosystems, they aren't. They can't be. Players are external actors and each of them brings to the table a different sized bar of this primary game defining resource: Time. Any balance around the consumption of this resource is already day one going to be unreliable as the primary Actors available time is massively variable across the entire playerbase.
Since most game developers don't want to create niche properties that limit who can play their games, they tend to target (with great reason) the lowest common denominator when balancing along this resource (Time). So yes dungeons are 15 minutes long not so you can get in and get out without having to interact with people, but so that you have more people to interact with!
I hate walking but I like treadmills it seems lol.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
So, do you think that a person that feels finishing a mile is an accomplishment, respects a person that can finish running a marathon?
Or should people that can finish a marathon be put down or better yet, marathons should be done away with because running marathons are impossible?
Yep. Anyone know what the starter area in Rift looks like from memory? I started beta, pushed through the first 5 zones in 10 minutes (or less), turned of the game and never went back. I've been waiting for a good MMO for a very long time.
Goodness you are fast. It takes me 10 minutes at least to make a character. o.O
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.