Every journey starts with the first step. Sitting at home in couch wont get you anywhere. And thats just what most MMOs have been doing for past 15 years.
I didnt even mention its possible to do in entirety atm, but that doesnt mean it cant be improved upon. Oh yeah, it woulod take a lot of hard work, so what. Lot of things take a lot of hard work.
Yes, you can. But why bother?
Games are already challenging. So what if the NPCs act a bit wooden. You are asking for challenges, not for them to pass a turing test.
why, bother with anything, caves server a purpose, and walking is perfectly good way of travelling and electricity is just convenience.
Im not asking for ONLY challenges, lol, as mentioned before, couple of times, but, if you havent noticed, MMOs have a bit of a problem providing meaningfull content because its based on dumb AI that gets boring fast.
You can only do rubiks cube only so many times once youve cracked it and MMOs have proven that they cannot comopete with speed players crack the content they provide. So they turn to grind and farming trying to artificially lengthen the content, but its not really working out.
Originally posted by Xiaoki These topics are always a good laugh. I bet CS engineers would die from laughter reading this topic. Advanced AI is extremely hard to program. It's also very resource intensive. Doing advanced AI in a massive online is almost impossible. They could use cutting edge cloud computing technology to handle it but that would likely be very expensive. And after all that what would be the post off? All of that time, effort and money would give you a mob that runs away and heals itself that only forum zombies would care about? Yeah, totally worth it.
Every journey starts with the first step. Sitting at home in couch wont get you anywhere. And thats just what most MMOs have been doing for past 15 years.
I didnt even mention its possible to do in entirety atm, but that doesnt mean it cant be improved upon. Oh yeah, it woulod take a lot of hard work, so what. Lot of things take a lot of hard work.
And like I said, lots of hard work for what?
Just to please a handful of forumites that constantly complain?
Also, its not like AI is an exact science. You could spend a lot of time, effort and money to develop a super awesome AI and its too smart and destroys all human players. So, you tweak it down so its killable and then people like you complain that its too stupid.
So, all of that time, effort and money for nothing.
Advanced AI is a no win situation currently for MMO developers.
Originally posted by Xiaoki These topics are always a good laugh. I bet CS engineers would die from laughter reading this topic. Advanced AI is extremely hard to program. It's also very resource intensive. Doing advanced AI in a massive online is almost impossible. They could use cutting edge cloud computing technology to handle it but that would likely be very expensive. And after all that what would be the post off? All of that time, effort and money would give you a mob that runs away and heals itself that only forum zombies would care about? Yeah, totally worth it.
Every journey starts with the first step. Sitting at home in couch wont get you anywhere. And thats just what most MMOs have been doing for past 15 years.
I didnt even mention its possible to do in entirety atm, but that doesnt mean it cant be improved upon. Oh yeah, it woulod take a lot of hard work, so what. Lot of things take a lot of hard work.
And like I said, lots of hard work for what?
Just to please a handful of forumites that constantly complain?
Also, its not like AI is an exact science. You could spend a lot of time, effort and money to develop a super awesome AI and its too smart and destroys all human players. So, you tweak it down so its killable and then people like you complain that its too stupid.
So, all of that time, effort and money for nothing.
Advanced AI is a no win situation currently for MMO developers.
We should also move to 2d, i mean its so much cheaper and 3rd d just adds some fluff...
exact science?
Super awesome AI? Do you even read the discussion?
Damn, im glad we dont live in caves any more, some are obviously satisfied with that.
This tends to be my general experience as well. Single player games in many cases boast a much more robust, intelligent and creative AI compared to MMO NPCs.
Originally posted by Salvadorbard This tends to be my general experience as well. Single player games in many cases boast a much more robust, intelligent and creative AI compared to MMO NPCs.
Even in games like Civilization, the AI is primitive at best.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. Benjamin Franklin
Originally posted by Xiaoki These topics are always a good laugh.
I bet CS engineers would die from laughter reading this topic.
Advanced AI is extremely hard to program. It's also very resource intensive.
Doing advanced AI in a massive online is almost impossible.
They could use cutting edge cloud computing technology to handle it but that would likely be very expensive.
And after all that what would be the post off?
All of that time, effort and money would give you a mob that runs away and heals itself that only forum zombies would care about?
Yeah, totally worth it.
Not only that but PvE players seem to despise fighting mobs that behave too much like humans. Like that one fight in ToC in WoW. The mobs had CC and ignored aggro, going for casters and healers you had to think on your feet and cc and kite. People HATED that fight, there was endless whining about how annoying it was.
You spend all that money on fancy new AI tech only to drive away x% of your player base.
Every journey starts with the first step. Sitting at home in couch wont get you anywhere. And thats just what most MMOs have been doing for past 15 years.
I didnt even mention its possible to do in entirety atm, but that doesnt mean it cant be improved upon. Oh yeah, it woulod take a lot of hard work, so what. Lot of things take a lot of hard work.
Yes, you can. But why bother?
Games are already challenging. So what if the NPCs act a bit wooden. You are asking for challenges, not for them to pass a turing test.
why, bother with anything, caves server a purpose, and walking is perfectly good way of travelling and electricity is just convenience.
Because electricity makes a HUGE difference, and better AI does not?
We should also move to 2d, i mean its so much cheaper and 3rd d just adds some fluff...
exact science?
Super awesome AI? Do you even read the discussion?
Damn, im glad we dont live in caves any more, some are obviously satisfied with that.
But then, some are not.
Only if most players don't mind 2D .. but you know that is not true. Good graphics make or break a game.
However, you cannot say the same about AI. If AI is improved a lot tomorrow, not only most won't care, a lot will even ask the devs to go back to dumb AI.
That is the answer. Why do hard work for no pay off? Dev have limited resources .. they should spend on stuff that their audience actually care about .. like more content.
We should also move to 2d, i mean its so much cheaper and 3rd d just adds some fluff...
exact science?
Super awesome AI? Do you even read the discussion?
Damn, im glad we dont live in caves any more, some are obviously satisfied with that.
But then, some are not.
Only if most players don't mind 2D .. but you know that is not true. Good graphics make or break a game.
However, you cannot say the same about AI. If AI is improved a lot tomorrow, not only most won't care, a lot will even ask the devs to go back to dumb AI.
That is the answer. Why do hard work for no pay off? Dev have limited resources .. they should spend on stuff that their audience actually care about .. like more content.
I agree.
MMO's this day and age no longer need to be "in- depth" or "challenging". All you need is the same A.I scripts from 1999 with great story to tell backed by awesome graphics and the masses will come.
We should also move to 2d, i mean its so much cheaper and 3rd d just adds some fluff...
exact science?
Super awesome AI? Do you even read the discussion?
Damn, im glad we dont live in caves any more, some are obviously satisfied with that.
But then, some are not.
Only if most players don't mind 2D .. but you know that is not true. Good graphics make or break a game.
However, you cannot say the same about AI. If AI is improved a lot tomorrow, not only most won't care, a lot will even ask the devs to go back to dumb AI.
That is the answer. Why do hard work for no pay off? Dev have limited resources .. they should spend on stuff that their audience actually care about .. like more content.
I agree.
MMO's this day and age no longer need to be "in- depth" or "challenging". All you need is the same A.I scripts from 1999 with great story to tell backed by awesome graphics and the masses will come.
New content = more story and shiny graphics
and a difficulty slider like D3, if you want some hardcore players.
99.999% of the players will never be competitive at the highest difficulty of D3 .. but that is not the point, you can enjoy the game at normal difficulty .. or the super hard high greater rifts.
MMOs should really learn from that. No more complaints about difficulties, from anyone.
We should also move to 2d, i mean its so much cheaper and 3rd d just adds some fluff...
exact science?
Super awesome AI? Do you even read the discussion?
Damn, im glad we dont live in caves any more, some are obviously satisfied with that.
But then, some are not.
Only if most players don't mind 2D .. but you know that is not true. Good graphics make or break a game.
However, you cannot say the same about AI. If AI is improved a lot tomorrow, not only most won't care, a lot will even ask the devs to go back to dumb AI.
That is the answer. Why do hard work for no pay off? Dev have limited resources .. they should spend on stuff that their audience actually care about .. like more content.
I agree.
MMO's this day and age no longer need to be "in- depth" or "challenging". All you need is the same A.I scripts from 1999 with great story to tell backed by awesome graphics and the masses will come.
New content = more story and shiny graphics
and a difficulty slider like D3, if you want some hardcore players.
99.999% of the players will never be competitive at the highest difficulty of D3 .. but that is not the point, you can enjoy the game at normal difficulty .. or the super hard high greater rifts.
MMOs should really learn from that. No more complaints about difficulties, from anyone.
Just out of curiosity...
How would sliders work in a persistent world? ... So we are clear i'm talking about traditional MMO's
We should also move to 2d, i mean its so much cheaper and 3rd d just adds some fluff...
exact science?
Super awesome AI? Do you even read the discussion?
Damn, im glad we dont live in caves any more, some are obviously satisfied with that.
But then, some are not.
Only if most players don't mind 2D .. but you know that is not true. Good graphics make or break a game.
However, you cannot say the same about AI. If AI is improved a lot tomorrow, not only most won't care, a lot will even ask the devs to go back to dumb AI.
That is the answer. Why do hard work for no pay off? Dev have limited resources .. they should spend on stuff that their audience actually care about .. like more content.
I agree.
MMO's this day and age no longer need to be "in- depth" or "challenging". All you need is the same A.I scripts from 1999 with great story to tell backed by awesome graphics and the masses will come.
New content = more story and shiny graphics
and a difficulty slider like D3, if you want some hardcore players.
99.999% of the players will never be competitive at the highest difficulty of D3 .. but that is not the point, you can enjoy the game at normal difficulty .. or the super hard high greater rifts.
MMOs should really learn from that. No more complaints about difficulties, from anyone.
Just out of curiosity...
How would sliders work in a persistent world? ... So we are clear i'm talking about traditional MMO's
That's why MMO's are moving away from the "Massively" part and chunking up their games so as to give players all those sparklies and bloated numbers. It makes them feel all sparkly and bloated inside. And they get blue ribbons too, each and every time they play Sparkle Bloat Online.
We should also move to 2d, i mean its so much cheaper and 3rd d just adds some fluff...
exact science?
Super awesome AI? Do you even read the discussion?
Damn, im glad we dont live in caves any more, some are obviously satisfied with that.
But then, some are not.
Only if most players don't mind 2D .. but you know that is not true. Good graphics make or break a game.
However, you cannot say the same about AI. If AI is improved a lot tomorrow, not only most won't care, a lot will even ask the devs to go back to dumb AI.
That is the answer. Why do hard work for no pay off? Dev have limited resources .. they should spend on stuff that their audience actually care about .. like more content.
I agree.
MMO's this day and age no longer need to be "in- depth" or "challenging". All you need is the same A.I scripts from 1999 with great story to tell backed by awesome graphics and the masses will come.
New content = more story and shiny graphics
and a difficulty slider like D3, if you want some hardcore players.
99.999% of the players will never be competitive at the highest difficulty of D3 .. but that is not the point, you can enjoy the game at normal difficulty .. or the super hard high greater rifts.
MMOs should really learn from that. No more complaints about difficulties, from anyone.
Just out of curiosity...
How would sliders work in a persistent world? ... So we are clear i'm talking about traditional MMO's
Sliders wouldn't be needed. That's what instances for. There's many difficulty options for dungeons and raids.
Having sliders for the open-world would be very difficult to achieve, if not, impossible.
We should also move to 2d, i mean its so much cheaper and 3rd d just adds some fluff...
exact science?
Super awesome AI? Do you even read the discussion?
Damn, im glad we dont live in caves any more, some are obviously satisfied with that.
But then, some are not.
Only if most players don't mind 2D .. but you know that is not true. Good graphics make or break a game.
However, you cannot say the same about AI. If AI is improved a lot tomorrow, not only most won't care, a lot will even ask the devs to go back to dumb AI.
That is the answer. Why do hard work for no pay off? Dev have limited resources .. they should spend on stuff that their audience actually care about .. like more content.
I agree.
MMO's this day and age no longer need to be "in- depth" or "challenging". All you need is the same A.I scripts from 1999 with great story to tell backed by awesome graphics and the masses will come.
New content = more story and shiny graphics
and a difficulty slider like D3, if you want some hardcore players.
99.999% of the players will never be competitive at the highest difficulty of D3 .. but that is not the point, you can enjoy the game at normal difficulty .. or the super hard high greater rifts.
MMOs should really learn from that. No more complaints about difficulties, from anyone.
Just out of curiosity...
How would sliders work in a persistent world? ... So we are clear i'm talking about traditional MMO's
Sliders wouldn't be needed. That's what instances for. There's many difficulty options for dungeons and raids.
Having sliders for the open-world would be very difficult to achieve, if not, impossible.
It could be done in the open world, but you'd have to maintain a strict separation of MOBs and then apply an auto slider to each character a player runs into a "zone" of MOBs already set. That really ruins my character's identity, in my opinion.
We should also move to 2d, i mean its so much cheaper and 3rd d just adds some fluff...
exact science?
Super awesome AI? Do you even read the discussion?
Damn, im glad we dont live in caves any more, some are obviously satisfied with that.
But then, some are not.
Only if most players don't mind 2D .. but you know that is not true. Good graphics make or break a game.
However, you cannot say the same about AI. If AI is improved a lot tomorrow, not only most won't care, a lot will even ask the devs to go back to dumb AI.
That is the answer. Why do hard work for no pay off? Dev have limited resources .. they should spend on stuff that their audience actually care about .. like more content.
I agree.
MMO's this day and age no longer need to be "in- depth" or "challenging". All you need is the same A.I scripts from 1999 with great story to tell backed by awesome graphics and the masses will come.
New content = more story and shiny graphics
and a difficulty slider like D3, if you want some hardcore players.
99.999% of the players will never be competitive at the highest difficulty of D3 .. but that is not the point, you can enjoy the game at normal difficulty .. or the super hard high greater rifts.
MMOs should really learn from that. No more complaints about difficulties, from anyone.
Just out of curiosity...
How would sliders work in a persistent world? ... So we are clear i'm talking about traditional MMO's
Sliders wouldn't be needed. That's what instances for. There's many difficulty options for dungeons and raids.
Having sliders for the open-world would be very difficult to achieve, if not, impossible.
It could be done in the open world, but you'd have to maintain a strict separation of MOBs and then apply an auto slider to each character a player runs into a "zone" of MOBs already set. That really ruins my character's identity, in my opinion.
Wouldn't it be better to just have separate games?
It's impossible to get the players that want challenge and the players who just want "a walk-through" in the same game.
How would sliders work in a persistent world? ... So we are clear i'm talking about traditional MMO's
It won't. But MMOs are not about persistent world anymore .. witness all the instancing. And sliders are perfect to be applied in instances, where the experiences can be carefully tuned.
We should also move to 2d, i mean its so much cheaper and 3rd d just adds some fluff...
exact science?
Super awesome AI? Do you even read the discussion?
Damn, im glad we dont live in caves any more, some are obviously satisfied with that.
But then, some are not.
Only if most players don't mind 2D .. but you know that is not true. Good graphics make or break a game.
However, you cannot say the same about AI. If AI is improved a lot tomorrow, not only most won't care, a lot will even ask the devs to go back to dumb AI.
That is the answer. Why do hard work for no pay off? Dev have limited resources .. they should spend on stuff that their audience actually care about .. like more content.
I agree.
MMO's this day and age no longer need to be "in- depth" or "challenging". All you need is the same A.I scripts from 1999 with great story to tell backed by awesome graphics and the masses will come.
New content = more story and shiny graphics
and a difficulty slider like D3, if you want some hardcore players.
99.999% of the players will never be competitive at the highest difficulty of D3 .. but that is not the point, you can enjoy the game at normal difficulty .. or the super hard high greater rifts.
MMOs should really learn from that. No more complaints about difficulties, from anyone.
Just out of curiosity...
How would sliders work in a persistent world? ... So we are clear i'm talking about traditional MMO's
Sliders wouldn't be needed. That's what instances for. There's many difficulty options for dungeons and raids.
Having sliders for the open-world would be very difficult to achieve, if not, impossible.
It could be done in the open world, but you'd have to maintain a strict separation of MOBs and then apply an auto slider to each character a player runs into a "zone" of MOBs already set. That really ruins my character's identity, in my opinion.
And then you'll still have the problem of other players engaging in that same mob, thus trivializing the encounter.
We should also move to 2d, i mean its so much cheaper and 3rd d just adds some fluff...
exact science?
Super awesome AI? Do you even read the discussion?
Damn, im glad we dont live in caves any more, some are obviously satisfied with that.
But then, some are not.
Only if most players don't mind 2D .. but you know that is not true. Good graphics make or break a game.
However, you cannot say the same about AI. If AI is improved a lot tomorrow, not only most won't care, a lot will even ask the devs to go back to dumb AI.
That is the answer. Why do hard work for no pay off? Dev have limited resources .. they should spend on stuff that their audience actually care about .. like more content.
I agree.
MMO's this day and age no longer need to be "in- depth" or "challenging". All you need is the same A.I scripts from 1999 with great story to tell backed by awesome graphics and the masses will come.
New content = more story and shiny graphics
and a difficulty slider like D3, if you want some hardcore players.
99.999% of the players will never be competitive at the highest difficulty of D3 .. but that is not the point, you can enjoy the game at normal difficulty .. or the super hard high greater rifts.
MMOs should really learn from that. No more complaints about difficulties, from anyone.
Just out of curiosity...
How would sliders work in a persistent world? ... So we are clear i'm talking about traditional MMO's
Sliders wouldn't be needed. That's what instances for. There's many difficulty options for dungeons and raids.
Having sliders for the open-world would be very difficult to achieve, if not, impossible.
It could be done in the open world, but you'd have to maintain a strict separation of MOBs and then apply an auto slider to each character a player runs into a "zone" of MOBs already set. That really ruins my character's identity, in my opinion.
Wouldn't it be better to just have separate games?
It's impossible to get the players that want challenge and the players who just want "a walk-through" in the same game.
I completely agree. I was just saying it's possible, but I don't think it's desirable at all.
We should also move to 2d, i mean its so much cheaper and 3rd d just adds some fluff...
exact science?
Super awesome AI? Do you even read the discussion?
Damn, im glad we dont live in caves any more, some are obviously satisfied with that.
But then, some are not.
Only if most players don't mind 2D .. but you know that is not true. Good graphics make or break a game.
However, you cannot say the same about AI. If AI is improved a lot tomorrow, not only most won't care, a lot will even ask the devs to go back to dumb AI.
That is the answer. Why do hard work for no pay off? Dev have limited resources .. they should spend on stuff that their audience actually care about .. like more content.
I agree.
MMO's this day and age no longer need to be "in- depth" or "challenging". All you need is the same A.I scripts from 1999 with great story to tell backed by awesome graphics and the masses will come.
New content = more story and shiny graphics
and a difficulty slider like D3, if you want some hardcore players.
99.999% of the players will never be competitive at the highest difficulty of D3 .. but that is not the point, you can enjoy the game at normal difficulty .. or the super hard high greater rifts.
MMOs should really learn from that. No more complaints about difficulties, from anyone.
Just out of curiosity...
How would sliders work in a persistent world? ... So we are clear i'm talking about traditional MMO's
Sliders wouldn't be needed. That's what instances for. There's many difficulty options for dungeons and raids.
Having sliders for the open-world would be very difficult to achieve, if not, impossible.
It could be done in the open world, but you'd have to maintain a strict separation of MOBs and then apply an auto slider to each character a player runs into a "zone" of MOBs already set. That really ruins my character's identity, in my opinion.
And then you'll still have the problem of other players engaging in that same mob, thus trivializing the encounter.
Well, that's what the "auto slider to each character (that) a player runs into a "zone" of MOBs already set" was about. But frankly I think MMOs have been trivialized for years going down the present path so it doesn't matter.
As I just posted above, I do not think any of this is desirable for MMOs.
I completely agree. I was just saying it's possible, but I don't think it's desirable at all.
It is desirable because it is not just two levels of difficulty .. it is many. The only real solution is to have a multi-level difficulty slider. You cannot make a separate game with different difficulty level for every 10 people.
I completely agree. I was just saying it's possible, but I don't think it's desirable at all.
It is desirable because it is not just two levels of difficulty .. it is many. The only real solution is to have a multi-level difficulty slider. You cannot make a separate game with different difficulty level for every 10 people.
You misunderstood my "not desirable" comment, I think. I meant to say that I don't think scaling, nor any of this huge power gap design with levels taking players from newbies to godmode several times over, is desirable for a good MMO.
But to go back, I said:
"It could be done in the open world, but you'd have to maintain a strict separation of MOBs and then apply an auto slider to each character a player runs into a "zone" of MOBs already set. That really ruins my character's identity, in my opinion".
So, maybe that needs a better explanation. I'll give an example:
Players enter a MOB zone. The MOBs scale to this player group. Individuals may have already been scaled to this group when joining them.
The MOB gets scaled to these players as a group.
Now remember, this zone's MOBs are kept separate from other zoned MOBs, much like most games to today.
Now another group of players enter the same MOB zone while it's been adjusted (scaled) to the first group. So this group gets a slider (scale) applied to them. This could be a slide up in power or down in power. (Did CoX do this in their PvP zone?) They get adjusted to the group that's in there.
At the same time, the MOB zone adjusts it's spawn to the new numbers.
If yet more groups enter, rinse and repeat.
Other than my point above about the current design being undesirable, this scaling pretty much takes away any identity a player may have to their character's place in the world. There should be some advancement, and this makes a mockery of advancement and "earning" your "level" or "skills".
Now, some may say that my point here is not true, that games today are desirable. But let me point out that the scaling system I just described isn't much different than what you have in an instance like modern games use. They are designed and tailored to a player group just as much. And they are just as much a mockery to advancement and "earning".
I think the PvE AI conversations elsewhere on these boards, as well as the Sandbox topics and discussions about power gaps, could be a great improvement in MMOs.
We should also move to 2d, i mean its so much cheaper and 3rd d just adds some fluff...
exact science?
Super awesome AI? Do you even read the discussion?
Damn, im glad we dont live in caves any more, some are obviously satisfied with that.
But then, some are not.
Only if most players don't mind 2D .. but you know that is not true. Good graphics make or break a game.
However, you cannot say the same about AI. If AI is improved a lot tomorrow, not only most won't care, a lot will even ask the devs to go back to dumb AI.
That is the answer. Why do hard work for no pay off? Dev have limited resources .. they should spend on stuff that their audience actually care about .. like more content.
What you ment to say is YOU wont care, but then, theres ton of people that dont care about 2d and 3d and so on.
You are not really measure for anything.
And i dont really see point of discussing something you dont care about, im sure there will always be plenty of games with dumb AI to play.
How would sliders work in a persistent world? ... So we are clear i'm talking about traditional MMO's
It won't. But MMOs are not about persistent world anymore .. witness all the instancing. And sliders are perfect to be applied in instances, where the experiences can be carefully tuned.
To your great surprise, there are few very succesful open world MMOs that are not all that persistant and dont endorse instancing.
But then again, youre not really duscussing same thing as rest of the people. If you prefer lobby games with dumb AI thats great, thats just one type of MMO. And market already has you covered pretty well.
Every journey starts with the first step. Sitting at home in couch wont get you anywhere. And thats just what most MMOs have been doing for past 15 years.
I didnt even mention its possible to do in entirety atm, but that doesnt mean it cant be improved upon. Oh yeah, it woulod take a lot of hard work, so what. Lot of things take a lot of hard work.
Yes, you can. But why bother?
Games are already challenging. So what if the NPCs act a bit wooden. You are asking for challenges, not for them to pass a turing test.
why, bother with anything, caves server a purpose, and walking is perfectly good way of travelling and electricity is just convenience.
Because electricity makes a HUGE difference, and better AI does not?
How would you know, how many games with smart AI have you played?
I can tell you right off the bat that chess is pretty awesome against smart AI and pretty bad against dumb AI.
They dont try to improve AI to dont act dumb in other games out of whim. MMOs are no exception.
And, in the end, you can make smart AI play dumb, but cant do it other way around. So having smart AI is more desirable from demographic standpoint.
Originally posted by Malabooga Originally posted by nariusseldonOriginally posted by MalaboogaOriginally posted by nariusseldonOriginally posted by Malabooga
Every journey starts with the first step. Sitting at home in couch wont get you anywhere. And thats just what most MMOs have been doing for past 15 years.I didnt even mention its possible to do in entirety atm, but that doesnt mean it cant be improved upon. Oh yeah, it woulod take a lot of hard work, so what. Lot of things take a lot of hard work.Yes, you can. But why bother?Games are already challenging. So what if the NPCs act a bit wooden. You are asking for challenges, not for them to pass a turing test. why, bother with anything, caves server a purpose, and walking is perfectly good way of travelling and electricity is just convenience. Because electricity makes a HUGE difference, and better AI does not?How would you know, how many games with smart AI have you played?
I can tell you right off the bat that chess is pretty awesome against smart AI and pretty bad against dumb AI.
They dont try to improve AI to dont act dumb in other games out of whim. MMOs are no exception.
And, in the end, you can make smart AI play dumb, but cant do it other way around. So having smart AI is more desirable from demographic standpoint.
Well, if they can have chess video games with smart AI then an MMO with smart AI should be no problem at all.
Because, as we all know, there is little difference between chess video games and MMOs.
Some one on a message board wants it to happen so obviously it can happen.
Technological limitations? Bah! We have the power of wishing.
Comments
why, bother with anything, caves server a purpose, and walking is perfectly good way of travelling and electricity is just convenience.
Im not asking for ONLY challenges, lol, as mentioned before, couple of times, but, if you havent noticed, MMOs have a bit of a problem providing meaningfull content because its based on dumb AI that gets boring fast.
You can only do rubiks cube only so many times once youve cracked it and MMOs have proven that they cannot comopete with speed players crack the content they provide. So they turn to grind and farming trying to artificially lengthen the content, but its not really working out.
Just to please a handful of forumites that constantly complain?
Also, its not like AI is an exact science. You could spend a lot of time, effort and money to develop a super awesome AI and its too smart and destroys all human players. So, you tweak it down so its killable and then people like you complain that its too stupid.
So, all of that time, effort and money for nothing.
Advanced AI is a no win situation currently for MMO developers.
We should also move to 2d, i mean its so much cheaper and 3rd d just adds some fluff...
exact science?
Super awesome AI? Do you even read the discussion?
Damn, im glad we dont live in caves any more, some are obviously satisfied with that.
But then, some are not.
8 years and counting addicted to
Avalon: The Legend Lives - the longest running online RPG in history
Even in games like Civilization, the AI is primitive at best.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
Not only that but PvE players seem to despise fighting mobs that behave too much like humans. Like that one fight in ToC in WoW. The mobs had CC and ignored aggro, going for casters and healers you had to think on your feet and cc and kite. People HATED that fight, there was endless whining about how annoying it was.
You spend all that money on fancy new AI tech only to drive away x% of your player base.
Because electricity makes a HUGE difference, and better AI does not?
Only if most players don't mind 2D .. but you know that is not true. Good graphics make or break a game.
However, you cannot say the same about AI. If AI is improved a lot tomorrow, not only most won't care, a lot will even ask the devs to go back to dumb AI.
That is the answer. Why do hard work for no pay off? Dev have limited resources .. they should spend on stuff that their audience actually care about .. like more content.
I agree.
MMO's this day and age no longer need to be "in- depth" or "challenging". All you need is the same A.I scripts from 1999 with great story to tell backed by awesome graphics and the masses will come.
New content = more story and shiny graphics
and a difficulty slider like D3, if you want some hardcore players.
99.999% of the players will never be competitive at the highest difficulty of D3 .. but that is not the point, you can enjoy the game at normal difficulty .. or the super hard high greater rifts.
MMOs should really learn from that. No more complaints about difficulties, from anyone.
Just out of curiosity...
How would sliders work in a persistent world? ... So we are clear i'm talking about traditional MMO's
That's why MMO's are moving away from the "Massively" part and chunking up their games so as to give players all those sparklies and bloated numbers. It makes them feel all sparkly and bloated inside. And they get blue ribbons too, each and every time they play Sparkle Bloat Online.
Once upon a time....
Sliders wouldn't be needed. That's what instances for. There's many difficulty options for dungeons and raids.
Having sliders for the open-world would be very difficult to achieve, if not, impossible.
It could be done in the open world, but you'd have to maintain a strict separation of MOBs and then apply an auto slider to each character a player runs into a "zone" of MOBs already set. That really ruins my character's identity, in my opinion.
Once upon a time....
Wouldn't it be better to just have separate games?
It's impossible to get the players that want challenge and the players who just want "a walk-through" in the same game.
It won't. But MMOs are not about persistent world anymore .. witness all the instancing. And sliders are perfect to be applied in instances, where the experiences can be carefully tuned.
And then you'll still have the problem of other players engaging in that same mob, thus trivializing the encounter.
I completely agree. I was just saying it's possible, but I don't think it's desirable at all.
Once upon a time....
Well, that's what the "auto slider to each character (that) a player runs into a "zone" of MOBs already set" was about. But frankly I think MMOs have been trivialized for years going down the present path so it doesn't matter.
As I just posted above, I do not think any of this is desirable for MMOs.
Edit: Added for clarity, "that"
Once upon a time....
It is desirable because it is not just two levels of difficulty .. it is many. The only real solution is to have a multi-level difficulty slider. You cannot make a separate game with different difficulty level for every 10 people.
You misunderstood my "not desirable" comment, I think. I meant to say that I don't think scaling, nor any of this huge power gap design with levels taking players from newbies to godmode several times over, is desirable for a good MMO.
But to go back, I said:
"It could be done in the open world, but you'd have to maintain a strict separation of MOBs and then apply an auto slider to each character a player runs into a "zone" of MOBs already set. That really ruins my character's identity, in my opinion".
So, maybe that needs a better explanation. I'll give an example:
Once upon a time....
What you ment to say is YOU wont care, but then, theres ton of people that dont care about 2d and 3d and so on.
You are not really measure for anything.
And i dont really see point of discussing something you dont care about, im sure there will always be plenty of games with dumb AI to play.
To your great surprise, there are few very succesful open world MMOs that are not all that persistant and dont endorse instancing.
But then again, youre not really duscussing same thing as rest of the people. If you prefer lobby games with dumb AI thats great, thats just one type of MMO. And market already has you covered pretty well.
How would you know, how many games with smart AI have you played?
I can tell you right off the bat that chess is pretty awesome against smart AI and pretty bad against dumb AI.
They dont try to improve AI to dont act dumb in other games out of whim. MMOs are no exception.
And, in the end, you can make smart AI play dumb, but cant do it other way around. So having smart AI is more desirable from demographic standpoint.
Yes, you can. But why bother? Games are already challenging. So what if the NPCs act a bit wooden. You are asking for challenges, not for them to pass a turing test.
why, bother with anything, caves server a purpose, and walking is perfectly good way of travelling and electricity is just convenience.
Because electricity makes a HUGE difference, and better AI does not?
How would you know, how many games with smart AI have you played?
I can tell you right off the bat that chess is pretty awesome against smart AI and pretty bad against dumb AI.
They dont try to improve AI to dont act dumb in other games out of whim. MMOs are no exception.
And, in the end, you can make smart AI play dumb, but cant do it other way around. So having smart AI is more desirable from demographic standpoint.
Well, if they can have chess video games with smart AI then an MMO with smart AI should be no problem at all.
Because, as we all know, there is little difference between chess video games and MMOs.
Some one on a message board wants it to happen so obviously it can happen.
Technological limitations? Bah! We have the power of wishing.