Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal I would say that we are conditioned to accept convenience and appeasement at every turn. It's the biggest problem.
Obvious not .. otherwise why would some here don't accept convenience?
I *want* convenience because it is my CHOICE of games ... there is no conditioning. It is a free choice. Why would I want to waste my time in inconvenient games .. that is just not me.
Are you sure? All games have inconveniences as I am sure you don't log on and are instantly max level and your character runs to your quest and complete them for you. The genre lately has been defined by convenience no matter the cost. Of course some people like the new conveniences or simply used to and expected it. That's the conditioning because previously we were expected to play the game or socialize to complete task vs. automated processes and easy gameplay.
The purpose of the genre has changed. Ok change happens. My problem is that it's largely uniformed and removed the need for the genre. The purpose of being an MMO is to be DRM for bad roleplaying games and platforms for cash shops and gambling. Not sure how that's good use for an online platform for the players.
You're confusing intended obstacle with inconvenient usage. The former is just the nature of a game but the latter is simply bad design.
Downtime, long travel times, poor UI... these are unnecessary inconveniences that detract from games for most people. The only ones that see it as 'gameplay' are those that have personally decided (because no industry or developer has decided it) that those things are mandatory or even desirable in an entertainment product or service.
Also, the purpose of the genre hasn't changed. It has always been to entertain. If you had some other takeaway that is no fault of the games or the developers.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
And when that feedback from the 2 hour player consists of this... well I only play your game 2 hours because I can get the same experience 19 other places. There is nothing redeeming about your game that differentiates it in a way that makes me desire to put you above the 19 other horses in my stable. That's what matters. That's the standpoint I've taken on the subject.
That is just silly. You think convenience is the ONLY dimension of gameplay? How about if they have a unique IP. Or better graphics?
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal I would say that we are conditioned to accept convenience and appeasement at every turn. It's the biggest problem.
Obvious not .. otherwise why would some here don't accept convenience?
I *want* convenience because it is my CHOICE of games ... there is no conditioning. It is a free choice. Why would I want to waste my time in inconvenient games .. that is just not me.
Are you sure? All games have inconveniences as I am sure you don't log on and are instantly max level and your character runs to your quest and complete them for you. The genre lately has been defined by convenience no matter the cost. Of course some people like the new conveniences or simply used to and expected it. That's the conditioning because previously we were expected to play the game or socialize to complete task vs. automated processes and easy gameplay.
The purpose of the genre has changed. Ok change happens. My problem is that it's largely uniformed and removed the need for the genre. The purpose of being an MMO is to be DRM for bad roleplaying games and platforms for cash shops and gambling. Not sure how that's good use for an online platform for the players.
You're confusing intended obstacle with inconvenient usage. The former is just the nature of a game but the latter is simply bad design.
Downtime, long travel times, poor UI... these are unnecessary inconveniences that detract from games for most people. The only ones that see it as 'gameplay' are those that have personally decided (because no industry or developer has decided it) that those things are mandatory or even desirable in an entertainment product or service.
Also, the purpose of the genre hasn't changed. It has always been to entertain. If you had some other takeaway that is no fault of the games or the developers.
Intended obstacles and inconvenient usage is opinion. For me leveling is inconvenient because I prefer shallow vertical progression and big horizontal progression and waste my time since its not the main game. For most people its an expected obstacle to have the privilage of the end game.
Downtime, long travel times are things that can really go either way. I don't think anyone likes a piss poor UI. They take away from games depending on what the game is, how its done and what purpose it serves. Travel in a themepark that's based on story is likely going to be horrible. Travel in a sandbox to find rare elements nobody else has found serves a purpose and can be fun to those who like it.
The purpose has changed. All entertainment is meant to entertain. If basketball suddenly switched to using feet only and soccer became hands only sports don't you think that's changing the purpose even if the bottom line is to entertain. MMORPG have gone from being a camping trip to a safari.
And when that feedback from the 2 hour player consists of this... well I only play your game 2 hours because I can get the same experience 19 other places. There is nothing redeeming about your game that differentiates it in a way that makes me desire to put you above the 19 other horses in my stable. That's what matters. That's the standpoint I've taken on the subject.
That is just silly. You think convenience is the ONLY dimension of gameplay? How about if they have a unique IP. Or better graphics?
Almost as silly as someone quoting somebody who was talking about time allocation and how it related to the value of the experience. Only to bring up convenience as the only dimension of game play when it neither correlates to, or was even mentioned, by the original quoted poster.
I guess they can't all be gems if your trying to raise that post count. Did you even quote the right thing?
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Way of the world. Cultures change and adapt. The 40s generation lamented the 50s generation. The 50s the 60s generation, etc. Same thing for music and a host of other things. Better not to live in the past too much. Cause you to be bitter ex gamers.
Intended obstacles and inconvenient usage is opinion. For me leveling is inconvenient because I prefer shallow vertical progression and big horizontal progression and waste my time since its not the main game. For most people its an expected obstacle to have the privilage of the end game.
Yes ... everything is subjective. That is why there are games where there is leveling, and there is games there aren't none or less (FPS, world of tanks ...)
However, the size of the group who hold that opinion varies.
For example, I am sure there are those who think long travel is ok ... but they are in such a minority that few games will not put in fast travel.
Plus, convenience is an option. In many games with large zones, you can still slow travel if you want to. The only thing is that you cannot force others to slow travel with you ... but that is fair .. no one needs to play accordingly to your preference.
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal I would say that we are conditioned to accept convenience and appeasement at every turn. It's the biggest problem.
Obvious not .. otherwise why would some here don't accept convenience?
I *want* convenience because it is my CHOICE of games ... there is no conditioning. It is a free choice. Why would I want to waste my time in inconvenient games .. that is just not me.
Are you sure? All games have inconveniences as I am sure you don't log on and are instantly max level and your character runs to your quest and complete them for you. The genre lately has been defined by convenience no matter the cost. Of course some people like the new conveniences or simply used to and expected it. That's the conditioning because previously we were expected to play the game or socialize to complete task vs. automated processes and easy gameplay.
The purpose of the genre has changed. Ok change happens. My problem is that it's largely uniformed and removed the need for the genre. The purpose of being an MMO is to be DRM for bad roleplaying games and platforms for cash shops and gambling. Not sure how that's good use for an online platform for the players.
You're confusing intended obstacle with inconvenient usage. The former is just the nature of a game but the latter is simply bad design.
Downtime, long travel times, poor UI... these are unnecessary inconveniences that detract from games for most people. The only ones that see it as 'gameplay' are those that have personally decided (because no industry or developer has decided it) that those things are mandatory or even desirable in an entertainment product or service.
Also, the purpose of the genre hasn't changed. It has always been to entertain. If you had some other takeaway that is no fault of the games or the developers.
A few here seem to forget that in Video Game, there is Game, and in Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game, there's also Game. Not Job. Game. Otherwise, it would be a Video Job, and a MMORPJ.
While some take video games very (too) seriously, most people pay to play those games for entertainment, to relax, and not to go through tedious tasks even worse than what they do at work all week long.
The MMORPG culture has always been an entertainment culture. Only a minority want their games to be second jobs.
And this is were it gets bogged down. I am a UO, SWG type of person. My desired gameplay has little to do with vast tedious features like EQ. In fact my gaming time a week is very low. It still doesn't change the fact that the genre is very uniformed and very much not what it used to be.
I simply am not entertained by the typical quest hub themepark because I've done it for so long. Alternative MMORPG specfiically not another type of MMO are very limited that and generally poor quality. This leaves many players like myself wanting something different and with the qualities of older games. Some want remakes and others want the spirit of genre with modern day features.
As much a people proclaim the genre satisfied... the genre would collapse if majority of players were forced to pay for the product.
A few here seem to forget that in Video Game, there is Game, and in Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game, there's also Game. Not Job. Game. Otherwise, it would be a Video Job, and a MMORPJ.
While some take video games very (too) seriously, most people pay to play those games for entertainment, to relax, and not to go through tedious tasks even worse than what they do at work all week long.
The MMORPG culture has always been an entertainment culture. Only a minority want their games to be second jobs.
Like playing simplest game like tic tac toe and and not taking it seriously and placing marks randomly or chess and moving pieces randomly etc.
its not the game that changes,game is allways the same (serious) game ,no matter how simple or complicated the game is but the player is the one that nobody takes seriously.
Its not the games fault that nobody takes these kind of people seriously and its no surprise that some of these folks feels like they are NPC's locked in safe house.
As i see it ,they are shyly asking for help that someday someone takes them seriously and treats them like human beings.
So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014. **On the radar: http://www.cyberpunk.net/ **
Was certainly a whole lot of words and bad math to simply say: "Your not playing MMOs the way I think you should".
I have to wonder though, who's really the tourist, the person who's actually playing MMOs, regardless of how many at once, or the person who admits that they're not playing any? On one hand you have a person that's actively participating in the genre, who's a part of in game communities. On the other, you have someone who stops by an MMO forum to look around at what's happening and leave a few comments.
Is it really fair for someone who's not a part of any MMO communities to tell someone who is that they're destroying MMO communities? Is it fair for someone who's simply reading about others playing MMOs to call someone who is playing the games a tourist?
Yes I think my comment was quite fair. I agreed with the posters analogy and math. I usually play one mmo for years. I can hardly find time for two. Anyone that plays twenty mmos in a month is not dedicated and will drop many of them soon. Therefor I see them as tourist. I have no idea weather the poster is playing any mmo or not as I see that irrelevant to the discussion.
A couple things.. First and foremost, don't bring up having past accounts here, it's a definitive ban if a blue sees it. Secondly...WHy do you feel it's your place to tell another how they should play any game?
"It's all in my post history. I'm not an MMO tourist. I didn't even intend to call them one. I responded to them like I always do because I think they are capable of being a part of the MMO community, they are just sidetracked by the shinies and those shinies will run out."
I mean don't you realize how ridiculous this sounds? You want to promote community, How so? By demonizing those who look at or approach this genre differently than you? Why would anyone want to join "your community" when that is your approach? You can't ridicule people into believing what you do.
This is the true decline in the MMO community that I see, far too many who believe their approach is the only legitimate one.
Dude, I deleted the previous account. It's not recoverable. They only ask that you have a single account. I don't maintain two accounts. Their rules are being followed, relax.
I'm not saying I want them to be a part of my community in my game. They don't fit my audience. I wasn't trying to ridicule anyone or I would have based my statements around the +10 addition but instead I debated on human time spent and resources used like hard drive space and having to keep up with 20 game updates.
If I thought my approach was the only one with any value why did I extricate myself from the forums for all those years. I was pushed into a corner because more and more free games have come along and I'm available to right that wrong. It ain't over till the fat lady sings they say. I have an INTJ personality. That means that I have the tendency to lead when others fail. I don't step in until I need to, it's a core feature of my personality. I consider free to play a bad leadership strategy along with cash shops. I think neither promote community and both do more to pit players against each other in competition than anything light hearted like rolling for loot did in the old days. Those are core features of near every debate I make. It doesn't matter the person on the other end, the argument remains standard.
Dispute what I claimed in the original post. Dispute how many available hours there are in a day. Dispute how it's not more difficult to keep up with 20 games than one and be a good feedback resource on the intricacies and systems involved in a game when a developer requests play feedback. Dispute that people don't need each other in the games. Dispute that person who plays your game 2 hours a week is driving your community better than someone who participates 20 hours a week, why should you share their time with others.
Why should you devalue your product and label it free when it took work to create unless you had a plan to broadside them with a twist later that would eventually gain you more - more money however, not more lasting bonds. The more you label yourself as transitory, the more they see you that way. Go ahead, tell them to take a 3 month break and return. When they stop coming back you'll realize you no longer matter. People used to talk about playing games for years now sometimes they are content with months. Is that what the developers really desire. Isn't there a point where the cloning will be so apparent that people stop calling it fresh. Another game with hundreds of quests and cosmetics for sale - yawn.
Is the playstyle posted ever going to have the energy to run a fansite. Is that something developer's want less of - people compiling information for them. Is that a good thing that we should focus on 20 things instead of one. How does that affect community. How does that even affect game suggestions. There are plenty of un-spoken effects. It's not like I even went as far as possible.
If you would look at what I post logically instead of trying to be personal about it you would see what it really is. It's logic, it's reasoning and it may have sentiment behind some of the delivery but that's because I've plunked so many years into this stuff that it may come across as aggressive or cajoling but it always has the first two. That's why the posts are long. Digest what you are seeing without involving individual people. Once you can turn it back to the topics instead of the people you will help the banter.
Respect. This was an awesome post and made for a very enjoyable read. Kudos.
Some people including myself miss the time period those game took place in to an extent.
The other was obviously that MMOs were a new thing for a small audience. That meant the people who played them were being exclusively catered too and most of them were like minded.
You also had the fact that most people didn't understand anything about MMOs too much yet. The players still had a large impact to make on the genre. That made the small group of players who played somewhat special.
They found the most efficient ways to play and even invented things the developers never thought of themselves. The player base was forging the path of MMOs would take into the future.
Now MMOs are just some entertainment for a much larger group of people who aren't nearly as passionate about their entertainment as the people who played the first few MMOs.
The mindset of society has changed.
Now most people have a computer and know how to use one. This was exclusively for a niche group of very passionate people with a lot of patience/time in the 80s/90s and even the early 2000s to an extent.
Computers were kind of like blacksmithing in medieval times. Basically it was thought of as magic of a sort to those who didn't understand it.
People who played MMOs were kind of though of in the same way. They were doing something completely new that no one else had done before and so people looked at them in awe for it in many cases.
Now no one is awed by computers, games, those who make them, or those who use them. There is just too much knowledge about them out there.
The net result is that computers are merely an everyday tools and games have become merely a minor distraction in the vast array of modern day entertainment.
Facebook and tablets took over for a while. Who can say what will be next.
Personally I don't think I can be awed by anything computer related at this point. I don't care how neat or complex it is.
I find that the reality of nature and space is far more interesting a topic to me in many cases. There are so many small simple things that go into making something very large and complex. That's not much different then a software application for a computer.
Its not the games fault that nobody takes these kind of people seriously and its no surprise that some of these folks feels like they are NPC's locked in safe house.
As i see it ,they are shyly asking for help that someday someone takes them seriously and treats them like human beings.
People who play games have no obligation to help or treat anyone nicely. In fact, google is right there .. is there a reason why someone cannot just google something and have to ask in game?
The world is not like it was 20 years ago. 20 years ago, people know that asking in chat is probably the only way to learn the game. Now, it is just wasting my time since I would not be as good as google.
And you are right .. it is not the games' fault. It is always the people. If you don't care about them, and just play the game, there is no problem.
Some people including myself miss the time period those game took place in to an extent.
The other was obviously that MMOs were a new thing for a small audience. That meant the people who played them were being exclusively catered too and most of them were like minded.
You also had the fact that most people didn't understand anything about MMOs too much yet. The players still had a large impact to make on the genre. That made the small group of players who played somewhat special.
They found the most efficient ways to play and even invented things the developers never thought of themselves. The player base was forging the path of MMOs would take into the future.
Now MMOs are just some entertainment for a much larger group of people who aren't nearly as passionate about their entertainment as the people who played the first few MMOs.
The mindset of society has changed.
Now most people have a computer and know how to use one. This was exclusively for a niche group of very passionate people with a lot of patience/time in the 80s/90s and even the early 2000s to an extent.
Computers were kind of like blacksmithing in medieval times. Basically it was thought of as magic of a sort to those who didn't understand it.
People who played MMOs were kind of though of in the same way. They were doing something completely new that no one else had done before and so people looked at them in awe for it in many cases.
Now no one is awed by computers, games, those who make them, or those who use them. There is just too much knowledge about them out there.
The net result is that computers are merely an everyday tools and games have become merely a minor distraction in the vast array of modern day entertainment.
Facebook and tablets took over for a while. Who can say what will be next.
Personally I don't think I can be awed by anything computer related at this point. I don't care how neat or complex it is.
I find that the reality of nature and space is far more interesting a topic to me in many cases. There are so many small simple things that go into making something very large and complex. That's not much different then a software application for a computer.
That's really over thinking it. WoW hit a homerun and everyone followed lead because the numbers dwarfed anything prior.
Think of it like mining. If there is previous small gold mines found all over and then a huge load is found in California where are they going to start looking for gold? In California. Even if they only find small gold mines similar to what they had before that huge pay day mine drives people to search it out a new one.
Formula for "Decline of MMORPG Culture."
Mass imitation of one off hit.
Short term conveniences and over the world and long term gameplay.
Short term content delivery making up majority of the game.
Short term marketing scheme propping up bad games, bad/short sighted design choices and selling content instead of gameplay.
Originally posted by Arakazi The world changed and you got old.
The shit happens. At least usually in most things like say music you're favorite artist still makes music you like. MMORPG's just flat out took our balls and gave it to the new kids lol.
Some people including myself miss the time period those game took place in to an extent.
The other was obviously that MMOs were a new thing for a small audience. That meant the people who played them were being exclusively catered too and most of them were like minded.
You also had the fact that most people didn't understand anything about MMOs too much yet. The players still had a large impact to make on the genre. That made the small group of players who played somewhat special.
They found the most efficient ways to play and even invented things the developers never thought of themselves. The player base was forging the path of MMOs would take into the future.
Now MMOs are just some entertainment for a much larger group of people who aren't nearly as passionate about their entertainment as the people who played the first few MMOs.
The mindset of society has changed.
Now most people have a computer and know how to use one. This was exclusively for a niche group of very passionate people with a lot of patience/time in the 80s/90s and even the early 2000s to an extent.
Computers were kind of like blacksmithing in medieval times. Basically it was thought of as magic of a sort to those who didn't understand it.
People who played MMOs were kind of though of in the same way. They were doing something completely new that no one else had done before and so people looked at them in awe for it in many cases.
Now no one is awed by computers, games, those who make them, or those who use them. There is just too much knowledge about them out there.
The net result is that computers are merely an everyday tools and games have become merely a minor distraction in the vast array of modern day entertainment.
Facebook and tablets took over for a while. Who can say what will be next.
Personally I don't think I can be awed by anything computer related at this point. I don't care how neat or complex it is.
I find that the reality of nature and space is far more interesting a topic to me in many cases. There are so many small simple things that go into making something very large and complex. That's not much different then a software application for a computer.
That's really over thinking it. WoW hit a homerun and everyone followed lead because the numbers dwarfed anything prior.
Think of it like mining. If there is previous small gold mines found all over and then a huge load is found in California where are they going to start looking for gold? In California. Even if they only find small gold mines similar to what they had before that huge pay day mine drives people to search it out a new one.
Formula for "Decline of MMORPG Culture."
Mass imitation of one off hit.
Short term conveniences and over the world and long term gameplay.
Short term content delivery making up majority of the game.
Short term marketing scheme propping up bad games, bad/short sighted design choices and selling content instead of gameplay.
Not sure how much of that I agree with, but you left out MMO/MMORPG mechanics becoming standard mechanics in pretty much every game. The uniqueness of MMORPGs no longer exists, so they've lost that competitive edge. Instead of expecting a purely MMORPG experience, new players are going to expect their common experience, just with more people. That's bound to change the "culture".
Some people including myself miss the time period those game took place in to an extent.
The other was obviously that MMOs were a new thing for a small audience. That meant the people who played them were being exclusively catered too and most of them were like minded.
You also had the fact that most people didn't understand anything about MMOs too much yet. The players still had a large impact to make on the genre. That made the small group of players who played somewhat special.
They found the most efficient ways to play and even invented things the developers never thought of themselves. The player base was forging the path of MMOs would take into the future.
Now MMOs are just some entertainment for a much larger group of people who aren't nearly as passionate about their entertainment as the people who played the first few MMOs.
The mindset of society has changed.
Now most people have a computer and know how to use one. This was exclusively for a niche group of very passionate people with a lot of patience/time in the 80s/90s and even the early 2000s to an extent.
Computers were kind of like blacksmithing in medieval times. Basically it was thought of as magic of a sort to those who didn't understand it.
People who played MMOs were kind of though of in the same way. They were doing something completely new that no one else had done before and so people looked at them in awe for it in many cases.
Now no one is awed by computers, games, those who make them, or those who use them. There is just too much knowledge about them out there.
The net result is that computers are merely an everyday tools and games have become merely a minor distraction in the vast array of modern day entertainment.
Facebook and tablets took over for a while. Who can say what will be next.
Personally I don't think I can be awed by anything computer related at this point. I don't care how neat or complex it is.
I find that the reality of nature and space is far more interesting a topic to me in many cases. There are so many small simple things that go into making something very large and complex. That's not much different then a software application for a computer.
That's really over thinking it. WoW hit a homerun and everyone followed lead because the numbers dwarfed anything prior.
Think of it like mining. If there is previous small gold mines found all over and then a huge load is found in California where are they going to start looking for gold? In California. Even if they only find small gold mines similar to what they had before that huge pay day mine drives people to search it out a new one.
Formula for "Decline of MMORPG Culture."
Mass imitation of one off hit.
Short term conveniences and over the world and long term gameplay.
Short term content delivery making up majority of the game.
Short term marketing scheme propping up bad games, bad/short sighted design choices and selling content instead of gameplay.
Not sure how much of that I agree with, but you left out MMO/MMORPG mechanics becoming standard mechanics in pretty much every game. The uniqueness of MMORPGs no longer exists, so they've lost that competitive edge. Instead of expecting a purely MMORPG experience, new players are going to expect their common experience, just with more people. That's bound to change the "culture".
Its generalized but mostly true. Mass imitation of one off hits covers the mechanics.
Originally posted by Arakazi The world changed and you got old.
The shit happens. At least usually in most things like say music you're favorite artist still makes music you like. MMORPG's just flat out took our balls and gave it to the new kids lol.
It is a free market. The devs can cater to anyone they want. If you don't like their entertainment, you can always do something else.
Originally posted by Arakazi The world changed and you got old.
The shit happens. At least usually in most things like say music you're favorite artist still makes music you like. MMORPG's just flat out took our balls and gave it to the new kids lol.
It is a free market. The devs can cater to anyone they want. If you don't like their entertainment, you can always do something else.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
I will apply Oswald Spengler's cultural analysis to MMORPGs.
At the beginning, there was a naive MMORPG culture fresh in its prime. There was a uniformity between MMO players, and most were confined within about 3-4 games. This was all very natural, and the current, or the core essence that flows through the games, was strong.
However, this MMORPG cultural prime lasted for an extremely limited time, and now we have entered Hellenism: dozens of games will spring up, all lacking that current or core essence which once flowed through the genre. The players have become experts: rather than embracing the living present and experiencing excellent games, we reflect on what has already past. I'm sure that during the time when Ultima Online and vanilla WoW were things, nobody was speculating on MMORPG mechanics or conceiving of what makes a great game: people at that time played the great games. And it does not matter if those games appear as primitive now, what matters is that in their present, when those games were on the table, they were legitimately enjoyed without any analysis required. People did not have to ask themselves "what is so fun about what I am playing? What makes it so great?" They did not tell themselves "what I want from an MMO is . . . " --no! They just played them because they were there. The greatness of the MMORPG was learned from these games. The idea of the greatness of the MMORPG is not a priori knowledge, but it was gained through playing a great MMORPG.
However, that fire simply died. For whatever reason, the current that flowed through the genre simply ceased flowing. Developers, formerly innovative, now for the first time looked backward for their ideas. They deliberated upon what it takes to make a great MMORPG, and therefore the innovation ceased to be. What was presented was merely what had already occurred. We were disillusioned, as within us, that current still existed. The success of an MMORPG revolves around the expectation of the playerbase being met by the developer, and the developer fell short: the demands of the player eclipsed what the developer was willing to provide.
Thus, the MMORPG culture died. Romanticism and realism emerge, and the unifying force that seemed to be a so necessary, and which now a so absent, aspect of MMORPGs became lost. And now, as if scholars, we look back, and recount what it was that made those MMORPGs so great. Surely, we can never have another great MMORPG again--the current that flowed through the genre has passed. We can have revivals, we can have something that seems inspirational in its brief period of time, but these are just flukes: the vital current has evaporated.
The fact that we now engage in these intense debates about petty mechanical concerns, that we provide our unfulfilled romantic longings, only articulates the fact that we are dealing with a dead construct. MMORPGs are a thing that happened, and all we can muster now are revivals of the MMORPG.
I agree with your first paragraph - but disagree that "the vital current has evaporated"
The genre evolved - into MMOs and MOBAs having the "vital current".
If you consider that MMORPGs are just a part of "online games" - you'll see that the vital current is bigger than ever - it's just that majority of players today have no interest in playing games gen1 games like vanilla EQ1 or even vanilla WoW.
The real issue is this - people look at "MMORPGs" as something exclusive - instead of seeing them as what they really are - just a brick in the wall of "online games".
The problem is that they now want to chase the FPS and RTS gamers and even going so far as to label games MMORPGs when they are bastardized versions of them at best. By all means, make those MMOFPS and MMORTS, but for goodness sakes, make us those MMORPGs that are worthy of the name, worthy of the audience and worthy of our money and time.
I don't get it, companies are easily able to cater to different audiences by making varieties of single player games, why not apply that logic by making varieties of MMOs instead of dropping one audience for another. In other words, the bandwagoning that runs rampant in this genre is getting really old.
The problem is that they now want to chase the FPS and RTS gamers and even going so far as to label games MMORPGs when they are bastardized versions of them at best. By all means, make those MMOFPS and MMORTS, but for goodness sakes, make us those MMORPGs that are worthy of the name, worthy of the audience and worthy of our money and time.
I don't get it, companies are easily able to cater to different audiences by making varieties of single player games, why not apply that logic by making varieties of MMOs instead of dropping one audience for another. In other words, the bandwagoning that runs rampant in this genre is getting really old.
I don't see how it's hard to get TBH, after the track record that most of these games have had going back to 2004 on to the present. So much money as well as time essentially squandered away on hopes of mass success. Even titles that saw early success UO, DAOC, EQ etc.. Were eventually "ruined"...This isn't exactly the easiest crowd to please, combine that with being the most time consuming as well as expensive genres to create, it's really not hard to figure out.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The problem is that they now want to chase the FPS and RTS gamers and even going so far as to label games MMORPGs when they are bastardized versions of them at best. By all means, make those MMOFPS and MMORTS, but for goodness sakes, make us those MMORPGs that are worthy of the name, worthy of the audience and worthy of our money and time.
What is the big deal? It is just a name ... a label. It is worthy of "the name", in the eye of the devs, if it makes money.
In fact, there *are* games labelled as MMOFPS .. like Defiance.
The problem is that they now want to chase the FPS and RTS gamers and even going so far as to label games MMORPGs when they are bastardized versions of them at best. By all means, make those MMOFPS and MMORTS, but for goodness sakes, make us those MMORPGs that are worthy of the name, worthy of the audience and worthy of our money and time.
What is the big deal? It is just a name ... a label. It is worthy of "the name", in the eye of the devs, if it makes money.
In fact, there *are* games labelled as MMOFPS .. like Defiance.
You might like to fudge the MMO part, like you always do in your posts, but you cannot say there is no real difference between a FPS, RTS and RPG. Too many of the new MMORPG games have barely any RPG to them as they get converted more and more to shallow generic arcade gameplay with less and less focus on story, adventure and puzzles and focus more and more on combat and motor reflexes.
Too many of the new MMORPG games have barely any RPG to them as they get converted more and more to shallow generic arcade gameplay with less and less focus on story, adventure and puzzles and focus more and more on combat and motor reflexes.
Yes .. so?
If the audience like story & puzzle less, and combat more .. shouldn't games be focused on that?
And when you say "barely any RPG" .. you do know that most CRPG is combat centric, right? Even story driven RPGs like Baldur Gates have a lot of combat.
Comments
You're confusing intended obstacle with inconvenient usage. The former is just the nature of a game but the latter is simply bad design.
Downtime, long travel times, poor UI... these are unnecessary inconveniences that detract from games for most people. The only ones that see it as 'gameplay' are those that have personally decided (because no industry or developer has decided it) that those things are mandatory or even desirable in an entertainment product or service.
Also, the purpose of the genre hasn't changed. It has always been to entertain. If you had some other takeaway that is no fault of the games or the developers.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
That is just silly. You think convenience is the ONLY dimension of gameplay? How about if they have a unique IP. Or better graphics?
Intended obstacles and inconvenient usage is opinion. For me leveling is inconvenient because I prefer shallow vertical progression and big horizontal progression and waste my time since its not the main game. For most people its an expected obstacle to have the privilage of the end game.
Downtime, long travel times are things that can really go either way. I don't think anyone likes a piss poor UI. They take away from games depending on what the game is, how its done and what purpose it serves. Travel in a themepark that's based on story is likely going to be horrible. Travel in a sandbox to find rare elements nobody else has found serves a purpose and can be fun to those who like it.
The purpose has changed. All entertainment is meant to entertain. If basketball suddenly switched to using feet only and soccer became hands only sports don't you think that's changing the purpose even if the bottom line is to entertain. MMORPG have gone from being a camping trip to a safari.
Almost as silly as someone quoting somebody who was talking about time allocation and how it related to the value of the experience. Only to bring up convenience as the only dimension of game play when it neither correlates to, or was even mentioned, by the original quoted poster.
I guess they can't all be gems if your trying to raise that post count. Did you even quote the right thing?
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
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Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/I self identify as a monkey.
Yes ... everything is subjective. That is why there are games where there is leveling, and there is games there aren't none or less (FPS, world of tanks ...)
However, the size of the group who hold that opinion varies.
For example, I am sure there are those who think long travel is ok ... but they are in such a minority that few games will not put in fast travel.
Plus, convenience is an option. In many games with large zones, you can still slow travel if you want to. The only thing is that you cannot force others to slow travel with you ... but that is fair .. no one needs to play accordingly to your preference.
And this is were it gets bogged down. I am a UO, SWG type of person. My desired gameplay has little to do with vast tedious features like EQ. In fact my gaming time a week is very low. It still doesn't change the fact that the genre is very uniformed and very much not what it used to be.
I simply am not entertained by the typical quest hub themepark because I've done it for so long. Alternative MMORPG specfiically not another type of MMO are very limited that and generally poor quality. This leaves many players like myself wanting something different and with the qualities of older games. Some want remakes and others want the spirit of genre with modern day features.
As much a people proclaim the genre satisfied... the genre would collapse if majority of players were forced to pay for the product.
Like playing simplest game like tic tac toe and and not taking it seriously and placing marks randomly or chess and moving pieces randomly etc.
its not the game that changes,game is allways the same (serious) game ,no matter how simple or complicated the game is but the player is the one that nobody takes seriously.
Its not the games fault that nobody takes these kind of people seriously and its no surprise that some of these folks feels like they are NPC's locked in safe house.
As i see it ,they are shyly asking for help that someday someone takes them seriously and treats them like human beings.
So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014.
**On the radar: http://www.cyberpunk.net/ **
Yes I think my comment was quite fair. I agreed with the posters analogy and math. I usually play one mmo for years. I can hardly find time for two. Anyone that plays twenty mmos in a month is not dedicated and will drop many of them soon. Therefor I see them as tourist. I have no idea weather the poster is playing any mmo or not as I see that irrelevant to the discussion.
http://www.entropiapartners.com/?r=22415
Respect. This was an awesome post and made for a very enjoyable read. Kudos.
http://www.entropiapartners.com/?r=22415
I believe it's fairly simple.
Some people including myself miss the time period those game took place in to an extent.
The other was obviously that MMOs were a new thing for a small audience. That meant the people who played them were being exclusively catered too and most of them were like minded.
You also had the fact that most people didn't understand anything about MMOs too much yet. The players still had a large impact to make on the genre. That made the small group of players who played somewhat special.
They found the most efficient ways to play and even invented things the developers never thought of themselves. The player base was forging the path of MMOs would take into the future.
Now MMOs are just some entertainment for a much larger group of people who aren't nearly as passionate about their entertainment as the people who played the first few MMOs.
The mindset of society has changed.
Now most people have a computer and know how to use one. This was exclusively for a niche group of very passionate people with a lot of patience/time in the 80s/90s and even the early 2000s to an extent.
Computers were kind of like blacksmithing in medieval times. Basically it was thought of as magic of a sort to those who didn't understand it.
People who played MMOs were kind of though of in the same way. They were doing something completely new that no one else had done before and so people looked at them in awe for it in many cases.
Now no one is awed by computers, games, those who make them, or those who use them. There is just too much knowledge about them out there.
The net result is that computers are merely an everyday tools and games have become merely a minor distraction in the vast array of modern day entertainment.
Facebook and tablets took over for a while. Who can say what will be next.
Personally I don't think I can be awed by anything computer related at this point. I don't care how neat or complex it is.
I find that the reality of nature and space is far more interesting a topic to me in many cases. There are so many small simple things that go into making something very large and complex. That's not much different then a software application for a computer.
People who play games have no obligation to help or treat anyone nicely. In fact, google is right there .. is there a reason why someone cannot just google something and have to ask in game?
The world is not like it was 20 years ago. 20 years ago, people know that asking in chat is probably the only way to learn the game. Now, it is just wasting my time since I would not be as good as google.
And you are right .. it is not the games' fault. It is always the people. If you don't care about them, and just play the game, there is no problem.
That's really over thinking it. WoW hit a homerun and everyone followed lead because the numbers dwarfed anything prior.
Think of it like mining. If there is previous small gold mines found all over and then a huge load is found in California where are they going to start looking for gold? In California. Even if they only find small gold mines similar to what they had before that huge pay day mine drives people to search it out a new one.
Formula for "Decline of MMORPG Culture."
The shit happens. At least usually in most things like say music you're favorite artist still makes music you like. MMORPG's just flat out took our balls and gave it to the new kids lol.
Not sure how much of that I agree with, but you left out MMO/MMORPG mechanics becoming standard mechanics in pretty much every game. The uniqueness of MMORPGs no longer exists, so they've lost that competitive edge. Instead of expecting a purely MMORPG experience, new players are going to expect their common experience, just with more people. That's bound to change the "culture".
Its generalized but mostly true. Mass imitation of one off hits covers the mechanics.
It is a free market. The devs can cater to anyone they want. If you don't like their entertainment, you can always do something else.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
The problem is that they now want to chase the FPS and RTS gamers and even going so far as to label games MMORPGs when they are bastardized versions of them at best. By all means, make those MMOFPS and MMORTS, but for goodness sakes, make us those MMORPGs that are worthy of the name, worthy of the audience and worthy of our money and time.
I don't get it, companies are easily able to cater to different audiences by making varieties of single player games, why not apply that logic by making varieties of MMOs instead of dropping one audience for another. In other words, the bandwagoning that runs rampant in this genre is getting really old.
I don't see how it's hard to get TBH, after the track record that most of these games have had going back to 2004 on to the present. So much money as well as time essentially squandered away on hopes of mass success. Even titles that saw early success UO, DAOC, EQ etc.. Were eventually "ruined"...This isn't exactly the easiest crowd to please, combine that with being the most time consuming as well as expensive genres to create, it's really not hard to figure out.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
What is the big deal? It is just a name ... a label. It is worthy of "the name", in the eye of the devs, if it makes money.
In fact, there *are* games labelled as MMOFPS .. like Defiance.
You might like to fudge the MMO part, like you always do in your posts, but you cannot say there is no real difference between a FPS, RTS and RPG. Too many of the new MMORPG games have barely any RPG to them as they get converted more and more to shallow generic arcade gameplay with less and less focus on story, adventure and puzzles and focus more and more on combat and motor reflexes.
Yes .. so?
If the audience like story & puzzle less, and combat more .. shouldn't games be focused on that?
And when you say "barely any RPG" .. you do know that most CRPG is combat centric, right? Even story driven RPGs like Baldur Gates have a lot of combat.