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$35/month sub. The next big MMO?

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  • DarLorkarDarLorkar Member UncommonPosts: 1,082
    Originally posted by DMKano

    Subscription is barrier to entry - making it higher only makes it worse.

    F2P + cash shop is the most popular model for online games for a reason - it works better than every other option for vast majority of games - which again is self evident.

     

    This pretty much is the way it is. 

     

    We had a large growth in on-line use (gaming and what not) started back around UO and EQ time. Then WOW struck the loto when they released.

    But...the VAST majority of people that play games on-line are, and always will be browser, and or facebook type games. Not people that will or would pay any type of subs really.  Paying more in subs does not make the games grow better nor increase the market.

    All this is just pipe dreams of jaded gamers. Somehow thinking that more sub fee's would equal better gaming for them.

  • strawhat0981strawhat0981 Member RarePosts: 1,223
    Originally posted by Abuz0r
    This wasn't meant to be some kind of troll post.  I'm saying I want a $35/mo quality game.  

    But, what does 35$ a month really give you? It seems like a fantasy of yours, where more money=more quality.

    Originally posted by laokoko
    "if you want to be a game designer, you should sell your house and fund your game. Since if you won't even fund your own game, no one will".

  • strawhat0981strawhat0981 Member RarePosts: 1,223
    I also want more, my friend. I just do not think money has anything to do with it.

    Originally posted by laokoko
    "if you want to be a game designer, you should sell your house and fund your game. Since if you won't even fund your own game, no one will".

  • CelciusCelcius Member RarePosts: 1,877
    Originally posted by strawhat0981
    I also want more, my friend. I just do not think money has anything to do with it.

    Yep. Some of the most successful games in the world now don't even cost money. 

  • reeereeereeereee Member UncommonPosts: 1,636
    Originally posted by Abuz0r
    This wasn't meant to be some kind of troll post.  I'm saying I want a $35/mo quality game.  I'm bored with the 10s and 15s.  WoW is old and worn out for me, I want something new and fun and unique.  I want to start an adventure that can't be finished, I want a real rpg experience again where I feel immersed.  

    Simple economics says it's never going to happen.  SWTOR cost around $300 million and wasn't enough to justify a $15 subscription much less a $35 subscription, ESO was likely similar in cost and wasn't able to sustain a subscription either. 

     

    Guess what that means?  A game that is not only as good as WoW but blows it out of the water getting people to pay more than twice what they're spending on WoW now... you're looking at what?  $800 million minimum?  Probably closer to a billion dollars? 

     

    Yet in this current market where every major Western MMO since WoW has either horrendously failed or at the very least significantly underperformed expectations no investors are interested in spending $100 million on a Western MMO much less the billion you would need to crush WoW.

  • HorusraHorusra Member EpicPosts: 4,411
    Originally posted by Kopogero
    Originally posted by LordZeik
    The same people who cry about p2w are usually the ones that won't fork over any kind of monthly fee. I hate p2w personally, but getting my friends to play p2p games with me is like pulling teeth. People for the most part are braindead. I know guys who have spent upwards of 700 dollars a month on a f2p game. Then tell me they won't pay 15 bucks plus a box price for a p2p because they feel cheated. F2p does a superior job into tricking people out of their money. Why else would 95% of the games out there be f2p? You have literally no chance to get people to spend more. Maybe if they lessened the cost to 5 dollars a month with a 30-40 dollar box fee. For that kinda money though the game would probably be subpar.

    Yea, I sure have benefited a lot out of the whales out there, but I have yet to open my wallet on a P2W game. It's simply not the type of future I want this genre to be headed toward so I'm not supporting that model. It's as simple as that. I'm just a passenger who enjoys the free products while I wait for that X game where I can finally happily spend every cent on.

    I also still believe that 50 small fishes => 1 big whale.

    By playing the game you are supporting the model.  You create the population the whales want to be better than.  If these games were empty except for whales then the whales would not spend.

  • KopogeroKopogero Member UncommonPosts: 1,685
    Originally posted by Horusra
    Originally posted by Kopogero
    Originally posted by LordZeik
    The same people who cry about p2w are usually the ones that won't fork over any kind of monthly fee. I hate p2w personally, but getting my friends to play p2p games with me is like pulling teeth. People for the most part are braindead. I know guys who have spent upwards of 700 dollars a month on a f2p game. Then tell me they won't pay 15 bucks plus a box price for a p2p because they feel cheated. F2p does a superior job into tricking people out of their money. Why else would 95% of the games out there be f2p? You have literally no chance to get people to spend more. Maybe if they lessened the cost to 5 dollars a month with a 30-40 dollar box fee. For that kinda money though the game would probably be subpar.

    Yea, I sure have benefited a lot out of the whales out there, but I have yet to open my wallet on a P2W game. It's simply not the type of future I want this genre to be headed toward so I'm not supporting that model. It's as simple as that. I'm just a passenger who enjoys the free products while I wait for that X game where I can finally happily spend every cent on.

    I also still believe that 50 small fishes => 1 big whale.

    By playing the game you are supporting the model.  You create the population the whales want to be better than.  If these games were empty except for whales then the whales would not spend.

    I'm quite aware of that. I would take P2W F2P game over no game at all any day. I also play only some of the best of the F2P models out there like Path of Exile.

    image

  • KopogeroKopogero Member UncommonPosts: 1,685
    Originally posted by Celcius
    Originally posted by strawhat0981
    I also want more, my friend. I just do not think money has anything to do with it.

    Yep. Some of the most successful games in the world now don't even cost money. 

    Successful and great are two different things though. I can easily make a game with $250-500 investment and sell it to my close friends and relatives which would total $750 to $1000 revenue at best and claim that game "successful".

    image

  • KopogeroKopogero Member UncommonPosts: 1,685
    Originally posted by reeereee
    Originally posted by Abuz0r
    This wasn't meant to be some kind of troll post.  I'm saying I want a $35/mo quality game.  I'm bored with the 10s and 15s.  WoW is old and worn out for me, I want something new and fun and unique.  I want to start an adventure that can't be finished, I want a real rpg experience again where I feel immersed.  

    Simple economics says it's never going to happen.  SWTOR cost around $300 million and wasn't enough to justify a $15 subscription much less a $35 subscription, ESO was likely similar in cost and wasn't able to sustain a subscription either. 

     

    Guess what that means?  A game that is not only as good as WoW but blows it out of the water getting people to pay more than twice what they're spending on WoW now... you're looking at what?  $800 million minimum?  Probably closer to a billion dollars? 

     

    Yet in this current market where every major Western MMO since WoW has either horrendously failed or at the very least significantly underperformed expectations no investors are interested in spending $100 million on a Western MMO much less the billion you would need to crush WoW.

    Simple economics says it will happen soon because not a single title out there has dominance in the market like WOW did years ago. Big budget titles also do not mean they will be great. Big budget only allows the company to have far more options when developing their product.

    Every major western MMO since WOW underperformed is because they failed to capture the market with their products. It's as simple as that. So, correction, no investors that don't have the skills/experience to deliver a great product and capture a market would invest big and rightfully so.

    image

  • KopogeroKopogero Member UncommonPosts: 1,685
    Originally posted by DarLorkar
    Originally posted by DMKano

    Subscription is barrier to entry - making it higher only makes it worse.

    F2P + cash shop is the most popular model for online games for a reason - it works better than every other option for vast majority of games - which again is self evident.

     

    This pretty much is the way it is. 

     

    We had a large growth in on-line use (gaming and what not) started back around UO and EQ time. Then WOW struck the loto when they released.

    But...the VAST majority of people that play games on-line are, and always will be browser, and or facebook type games. Not people that will or would pay any type of subs really.  Paying more in subs does not make the games grow better nor increase the market.

    All this is just pipe dreams of jaded gamers. Somehow thinking that more sub fee's would equal better gaming for them.

    Sub is not barrier to entry. Sub is the best option and it's why almost every MMO first tried to start as a P2P, but forced to F2P when underperformed. Only the best of the best products out there can remain P2P for long period otherwise World of Warcraft and EVE Online would've followed the F2P road long time ago.

    There are browser/facebook gamers, mobile gamers, console gamers and PC gamers. I also don't recall through my school years my friends to ever spoke about playing any browser games when a lot of great PC games existed and still do, so that "majority" claim is highly doubtful.

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  • Nightbringe1Nightbringe1 Member UncommonPosts: 1,335
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Abuz0r

    Every MMO released in 10 years has aimed to be cheaper yet comparable to WoW.  WoW is a $15/ mo game and it's worth every penny of it's $15/mo.  The reason we can't find games we like is because games aren't worth their subs, except for WoW.  The next game that finally is the 'wow killer' isn't going to be cheaper, it's going to be bigger, better and more expensive, and players are going to love paying every penny to be in the experience.

    We all whine and moan about f2p, item malls, p2p, b2p... while the fact is a true first class MMO is worth every penny of it's sub.  Not some chinese garbage dressed up to satisfy a western audience, I mean a real MMO that leaves you feeling the way you felt the first time you watched 300 every time you log in.

    Can a developer please aim to make a MMO of this calibur and quit giving us less than or equal to WoWs?

     

    Thanks

    lol .. you think people will pay $35 a month when they can find plenty of fun games for FREE?

    And why would you think people still like "real MMO". I think they like the new broadened MMOs like MOBAs, instanced pvp games, and other types of online games. Just look at the numbers.

     

    On average, people pay substantially more than $15 / month to play "FREE" games.

    Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
    Benjamin Franklin

  • KopogeroKopogero Member UncommonPosts: 1,685
    Originally posted by Margrave
    If that was the sub I would never consider playing it. Regardless of what it is.

    Just like I've never considered spending $ on anything new that has came out over the last 4 and a half year. For me it's quality over quantity and I would gladly pay extra for quality over more of the same because at the end my life and time is limited and precious and I do value it greatly and how I spend it.

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  • Abuz0rAbuz0r Member UncommonPosts: 550

    Wow don't be so thick.  I don't want to pay $35 for a $10 quality MMO, I want someone to actually make a MMO worth $35/mo how hard is that concept to grasp.  I want something so bad ass that people, even you, are willing to shell that out to get in the game.  I desire a game like that. 

    Let's break it down:

    Houses, $75,000 model, $150,000 model, 650,000 model.

    Cars, $10,000 model, $25,000 model, 70,000 model, ETC.

    TVs $239 model, 799 model, 2499 model.

    Computers $129 model, 649 model, $3250 model.

    Video card, $49 model, $99 model, $799 model.

    MMO Games. Free model, $40 one time fee model, $15/mo model... No valuable high end option at all.  I want to play a valuable high end game, and I'm willing to pay for it.

  • KopogeroKopogero Member UncommonPosts: 1,685
    Originally posted by Abuz0r

    Wow don't be so thick.  I don't want to pay $35 for a $10 quality MMO, I want someone to actually make a MMO worth $35/mo how hard is that concept to grasp.  I want something so bad ass that people, even you, are willing to shell that out to get in the game.  I desire a game like that. 

    Thing is, it doesn't even have to be $35. I bet $29.99 would be far more lucrative, especially how that's already jumping to double from the most expensive sub we've seen that no one dared to cross for decade. On top with even more lucrative deals like sub for 6 months for $149.99 or $288.88 for a year.

    image

  • strawhat0981strawhat0981 Member RarePosts: 1,223
    Originally posted by Kopogero
    Originally posted by DarLorkar
    Originally posted by DMKano

    Subscription is barrier to entry - making it higher only makes it worse.

    F2P + cash shop is the most popular model for online games for a reason - it works better than every other option for vast majority of games - which again is self evident.

     

    This pretty much is the way it is. 

     

    We had a large growth in on-line use (gaming and what not) started back around UO and EQ time. Then WOW struck the loto when they released.

    But...the VAST majority of people that play games on-line are, and always will be browser, and or facebook type games. Not people that will or would pay any type of subs really.  Paying more in subs does not make the games grow better nor increase the market.

    All this is just pipe dreams of jaded gamers. Somehow thinking that more sub fee's would equal better gaming for them.

    Sub is not barrier to entry. Sub is the best option and it's why almost every MMO first tried to start as a P2P, but forced to F2P when underperformed. Only the best of the best products out there can remain P2P for long period otherwise World of Warcraft and EVE Online would've followed the F2P road long time ago.

    There are browser/facebook gamers, mobile gamers, console gamers and PC gamers. I also don't recall through my school years my friends to ever spoke about playing any browser games when a lot of great PC games existed and still do, so that "majority" claim is highly doubtful.

    YES, sub and box are the entry. Now a days, No one wants to pay either. 

    Originally posted by laokoko
    "if you want to be a game designer, you should sell your house and fund your game. Since if you won't even fund your own game, no one will".

  • strawhat0981strawhat0981 Member RarePosts: 1,223
    Including me!!!!!

    Originally posted by laokoko
    "if you want to be a game designer, you should sell your house and fund your game. Since if you won't even fund your own game, no one will".

  • Abuz0rAbuz0r Member UncommonPosts: 550
    Originally posted by Kopogero
    Originally posted by Abuz0r

    Wow don't be so thick.  I don't want to pay $35 for a $10 quality MMO, I want someone to actually make a MMO worth $35/mo how hard is that concept to grasp.  I want something so bad ass that people, even you, are willing to shell that out to get in the game.  I desire a game like that. 

    Thing is, it doesn't even have to be $35. I bet $29.99 would be far more lucrative, especially how that's already jumping to double from the most expensive sub we've seen that no one dared to cross for decade. On top with even more lucrative deals like sub for 6 months for $149.99 or $288.88 for a year.

    Same principle, 29.99 $35, whatever, something better than what we have now.  Atleast you get it. :)

  • strawhat0981strawhat0981 Member RarePosts: 1,223
    Originally posted by Abuz0r
    Originally posted by Kopogero
    Originally posted by Abuz0r

    Wow don't be so thick.  I don't want to pay $35 for a $10 quality MMO, I want someone to actually make a MMO worth $35/mo how hard is that concept to grasp.  I want something so bad ass that people, even you, are willing to shell that out to get in the game.  I desire a game like that. 

    Thing is, it doesn't even have to be $35. I bet $29.99 would be far more lucrative, especially how that's already jumping to double from the most expensive sub we've seen that no one dared to cross for decade. On top with even more lucrative deals like sub for 6 months for $149.99 or $288.88 for a year.

    Same principle, 29.99 $35, whatever, something better than what we have now.  Atleast you get it. :)

    Dude, He is not agreeing with you.

    Originally posted by laokoko
    "if you want to be a game designer, you should sell your house and fund your game. Since if you won't even fund your own game, no one will".

  • RaquisRaquis Member RarePosts: 1,029
    bullshit,no game is worth a subscription!
  • jairusjairus Member UncommonPosts: 175
    WoW has had 10+ years to add content&tweak its game. If you think a newly released game will have more content then WoW your crazy.
  • h0tNstilettosh0tNstilettos Member Posts: 25
    Originally posted by Abuz0r

    Every MMO released in 10 years has aimed to be cheaper yet comparable to WoW.  WoW is a $15/ mo game and it's worth every penny of it's $15/mo.  The reason we can't find games we like is because games aren't worth their subs, except for WoW.  The next game that finally is the 'wow killer' isn't going to be cheaper, it's going to be bigger, better and more expensive, and players are going to love paying every penny to be in the experience.

    We all whine and moan about f2p, item malls, p2p, b2p... while the fact is a true first class MMO is worth every penny of it's sub.  Not some chinese garbage dressed up to satisfy a western audience, I mean a real MMO that leaves you feeling the way you felt the first time you watched 300 every time you log in.

    Can a developer please aim to make a MMO of this calibur and quit giving us less than or equal to WoWs?

     

    Thanks

     

    I can't take your topic post seriously when you make a comment like "The reason we can't find games we like is because games aren't worth their subs, except for WoW."

    Have you not heard of Final Fantasy XIV? It's the biggest MMO since WoW, even bigger than Guild Wars 2 or SWTOR. There's a reason it hasn't gone free to play and millions of people enjoy it and why many players from other MMOs, including WoW, have permanently quit them to play FFXIV. FFXIV releases more content at a faster rate than any MMO in history. They release a huge content patch every 3 months, and smaller ones every 1.5, and one of them added a new class even though it was just a content patch and not an expansion, and the expansion coming up has just as much content as game did at launch. FFXIV is worth its sub more than WoW is, unless you're not caught up in WoW, but assuming you're referring to current endgame, FFXIV has WoW beat by miles going by new content released with patches and expansion. In example, FFXIV released more content in their last patch than what the WoD expansion had. No joke.

  • KopogeroKopogero Member UncommonPosts: 1,685
    Originally posted by h0tNstilettos
    Originally posted by Abuz0r

    Every MMO released in 10 years has aimed to be cheaper yet comparable to WoW.  WoW is a $15/ mo game and it's worth every penny of it's $15/mo.  The reason we can't find games we like is because games aren't worth their subs, except for WoW.  The next game that finally is the 'wow killer' isn't going to be cheaper, it's going to be bigger, better and more expensive, and players are going to love paying every penny to be in the experience.

    We all whine and moan about f2p, item malls, p2p, b2p... while the fact is a true first class MMO is worth every penny of it's sub.  Not some chinese garbage dressed up to satisfy a western audience, I mean a real MMO that leaves you feeling the way you felt the first time you watched 300 every time you log in.

    Can a developer please aim to make a MMO of this calibur and quit giving us less than or equal to WoWs?

     

    Thanks

     

    I can't take your topic post seriously when you make a comment like "The reason we can't find games we like is because games aren't worth their subs, except for WoW."

    Have you not heard of Final Fantasy XIV? It's the biggest MMO since WoW, even bigger than Guild Wars 2 or SWTOR. There's a reason it hasn't gone free to play and millions of people enjoy it and why many players from other MMOs, including WoW, have permanently quit them to play FFXIV. FFXIV releases more content at a faster rate than any MMO in history. They release a huge content patch every 3 months, and smaller ones every 1.5, and one of them added a new class even though it was just a content patch and not an expansion, and the expansion coming up has just as much content as game did at launch. FFXIV is worth its sub more than WoW is, unless you're not caught up in WoW, but assuming you're referring to current endgame, FFXIV has WoW beat by miles going by new content released with patches and expansion. In example, FFXIV released more content in their last patch than what the WoD expansion had. No joke.

    I remember at a time when I walked all the way to future shop only to have a last second though on FFXIV. This was when FFXIV was initially released, not reborn. Sadly, WOW ensured that PvE centric, casual raid MMORPG's are not how I envision the future and FFXIV felt just like another clone. That combined with the epic fail on its initialrelease made me lose complete interest. I'm glad game is doing well though. I just know its just not the game for me, especially how PvP wise was lacking severely.

    image

  • RattenmannRattenmann Member UncommonPosts: 613
    Originally posted by macwood
    Is wow worth $15? What do they give you each month that makes it worth it?

    Fun. A lot of it. More fun then any other hobby that is only 15 bucks.

    MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.

    Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by Velocinox

    Why did you spell that like it was Japanese pretend English rather than the correct spelling?

    Why did you ignore his point and focus on spelling?

    People do crazy things.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • h0tNstilettosh0tNstilettos Member Posts: 25
    Originally posted by Kopogero
    Originally posted by h0tNstilettos
    Originally posted by Abuz0r

    Every MMO released in 10 years has aimed to be cheaper yet comparable to WoW.  WoW is a $15/ mo game and it's worth every penny of it's $15/mo.  The reason we can't find games we like is because games aren't worth their subs, except for WoW.  The next game that finally is the 'wow killer' isn't going to be cheaper, it's going to be bigger, better and more expensive, and players are going to love paying every penny to be in the experience.

    We all whine and moan about f2p, item malls, p2p, b2p... while the fact is a true first class MMO is worth every penny of it's sub.  Not some chinese garbage dressed up to satisfy a western audience, I mean a real MMO that leaves you feeling the way you felt the first time you watched 300 every time you log in.

    Can a developer please aim to make a MMO of this calibur and quit giving us less than or equal to WoWs?

     

    Thanks

     

    I can't take your topic post seriously when you make a comment like "The reason we can't find games we like is because games aren't worth their subs, except for WoW."

    Have you not heard of Final Fantasy XIV? It's the biggest MMO since WoW, even bigger than Guild Wars 2 or SWTOR. There's a reason it hasn't gone free to play and millions of people enjoy it and why many players from other MMOs, including WoW, have permanently quit them to play FFXIV. FFXIV releases more content at a faster rate than any MMO in history. They release a huge content patch every 3 months, and smaller ones every 1.5, and one of them added a new class even though it was just a content patch and not an expansion, and the expansion coming up has just as much content as game did at launch. FFXIV is worth its sub more than WoW is, unless you're not caught up in WoW, but assuming you're referring to current endgame, FFXIV has WoW beat by miles going by new content released with patches and expansion. In example, FFXIV released more content in their last patch than what the WoD expansion had. No joke.

    I remember at a time when I walked all the way to future shop only to have a last second though on FFXIV. This was when FFXIV was initially released, not reborn. Sadly, WOW ensured that PvE centric, casual raid MMORPG's are not how I envision the future and FFXIV felt just like another clone. That combined with the epic fail on its initialrelease made me lose complete interest. I'm glad game is doing well though. I just know its just not the game for me, especially how PvP wise was lacking severely.

    To each their own. I respect your viewpoint, but to throw it out there, Yoshi and them intentionally played cautious with A Realm Reborn because they wanted it to be very inviting to new MMO players and casuals, while still having some hardcore content. On top of this, the PS3 is holding them back. They have expressed things they'd like to do but can't until they drop PS3 support, which was suppose to be by first expansion, but apparently decided to continue supporting PS3 through Heavensward expansion. Moving forward they will be including more hardcore stuff and going new directions now that they have a solid foundation. It's true that WoW has far more raiding simply due to 10 years growth. The reason over 70% of WoW players have said they like FFXIV is because it reminds them of the vanilla WoW and a little of BC and Cataclysm. But then there's the group that dislikes it for that very reason because they want something super new and wildly different. FFXIV does do some new things, but the overall foundation is still traditional in style. Also, both FFXIV and WoW has things the other doesn't. FFXIV is popular not because it's something radically new and different, but because it's a celebration of the traditional MMORPG and is the most polished traditional style MMO out there. What I can give to WoW is PVP, which is superior, but over time FFXIV's PVP may evolve, and of course WoW has more content, but referring to quality not quantity. Kind of have to look at it like when WoW was new before it had time to evolve.

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