Slowing down leveling, but also adding more to achieve during "the journey." More horizontal progression. Discovering new abilities/spells from mobs, from drops, from quests, more gear, more reasons for a variety of gear like resists, environment. Most of all, more reward from group play. Grouping takes more time, is more rewarding, and promotes the social aspect of MMOs. If the game is harder and less forgiving, people need each other, all of a sudden the casual "go, go, go" mentality turns to one of more appreciation, value on strategy, and respect of good players. Achievements suddenly have meaning, you've made friends along the way, you gain renown for your achievements, etc etc. I could go on and on as to why and how the older approach is better, but I'm sure thats enough to rustle jimmies.
you also need to realize slowing down leveling also means people can not play together. Say a person is lvl10, he can't play with he's friend who is lvl80. Unless of course there is some system with up leveling or down leveling. There is also the issue where players like pvp to be balanced.
I think people misunderstand why games are the way they are now. They speed up leveling, so people can actually group together. You know how people keep saying the game start at max level nowadays?
Ok, then keep leveling trivial, keep streamlining progression, players continue to have no attachment to their character and quit after a few months of grinding dungeons, dailys and raids.
If a player has a friend thats starting, maybe he should roll an alt with him. Thats what I did when my friends started a new character in old games. That or use my higher level character to find him some decent gear or help him level.
Don't know what to tell you. If you don't have an issue with jumping back and forth between shallow games, I guess there isn't a problem that needs to be solved.
I'm not saying that's how games should be.
But I think you and many people have the idea that mmorpg are bad because you dont' enjoy it. You are not the center of universe. You act like no one quit those old games. I can literally take the word from a few old developers that WoW pretty much steal a bunch of their players. And for your information Wow is much longer lasting than many other mmorpg, and not everyone quit because all there is are dungeons, dailys and raids.
What I liked about old school gaming was you could log in and do jsut about anything you wanted.....Once WoW came out it felt like the MMOs were scripted and I jsut went throught the motions.....Unfortunately so many of the old school games are now dated graphically and its really difficult to get into them....Still overall I would say the gameplay>graphics
Originally posted by Theocritus What I liked about old school gaming was you could log in and do jsut about anything you wanted.....
wait .. I want to go into the dungeon and kill the boss, but I have to wait in line after 50 other groups .. so how was that doing just about anything I wanted?
Or in UO, i want to play in peace, and someone wants to fight me.
Modern games are much better at doing whatever I want in a game.
Originally posted by laokoko "if you want to be a game designer, you should sell your house and fund your game. Since if you won't even fund your own game, no one will".
Originally posted by Theocritus What I liked about old school gaming was you could log in and do jsut about anything you wanted.....
wait .. I want to go into the dungeon and kill the boss, but I have to wait in line after 50 other groups .. so how was that doing just about anything I wanted?
Or in UO, i want to play in peace, and someone wants to fight me.
Modern games are much better at doing whatever I want in a game.
Ya, and with all that convenience, you have time to post here 12 hours a day.
When folks want to a new game with old school features, they want the first four characteristics, and NOT the clunky stuff.
When MOBA fanatics try to shoot down the requests of old school players, they bring up the clunky stuff as well and imply that old school players want crappy graphics and awkward unpolished gameplay.
The fact that "vanilla" servers have all the above (good and bad) characteristics, yet launch with vigor, despite the clunky stuff, implies that old school games had some elements which might be very well received in a modern game today. Some MOBA players don't want to acknowledge this. Why, I cannot understand--it's kind of like someone in a restaurant not being happy unless everyone else orders what they order.
Why would MOBA players be all that interested in the topic anyway? Mostly they are polarised into one of two games, either LOL or DOTA2, with Smite clinging on for dear life. Rather than being interested in old school MMO's they are probably more interested in how Heroes of the Storm pans out etc. as any success by that game will probably be at the expense of the other 3, although, have to say, if HOTS does become really popular, then you can probably wave goodbye to Smite.
Originally posted by Theocritus What I liked about old school gaming was you could log in and do jsut about anything you wanted.....
wait .. I want to go into the dungeon and kill the boss, but I have to wait in line after 50 other groups .. so how was that doing just about anything I wanted?
Or in UO, i want to play in peace, and someone wants to fight me.
Modern games are much better at doing whatever I want in a game.
Ya, and with all that convenience, you have time to post here 12 hours a day.
nah ... posting is like 30 sec a pop, way way more convenient than playing any game. Otherwise, why do you think I am here?
Why would MOBA players be all that interested in the topic anyway? Mostly they are polarised into one of two games, either LOL or DOTA2, with Smite clinging on for dear life. Rather than being interested in old school MMO's they are probably more interested in how Heroes of the Storm pans out etc. as any success by that game will probably be at the expense of the other 3, although, have to say, if HOTS does become really popular, then you can probably wave goodbye to Smite.
I am more interested in how HOTS pans out than old school MMOs, and i don't play MOBA much.
HOTS is a pretty good game. Slick blizz polish. Some variation of what to do in different maps. Restricted chat (you cannot trash talk the other teams). Fast convenient games .. it is a lot shorter than LOL .. 15/20 min games rather than 45 min.
If you "hated" VANILLA WoW for that reason, you couldn't have been more wrong. Getting the top notch stuff back then was actually both difficult and time consuming, and it was definitely not given too easily.
Getting the top notch stuff nowadays is still difficult and time consuming by the way, you don't see many people in full Mythic of the latest raid. The only change, which is a good thing in my opinion, is there are options for everyone to experience all the content they paid for at their own rythm, unlike in vanilla where only the "hardcore / no life" minority was experiencing all the content even though it was the majority paying for it.
Yes, WOW's best gear was (and is) difficult to attain.
Some players take their love of sandbox (player freedom/authorship) a little too far, becoming amateur revisionist-historians IRL.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
That exclusivity that no longer exists in games is also one of the major reasons players no longer strive for mastery. If everyone can see the easy version of the boss dungeon, not only is that unrealistic and unimmersive, its flat out giving a false sense of accomplishment.
Originally posted by Dullahan That exclusivity that no longer exists in games is also one of the major reasons players no longer strive for mastery. If everyone can see the easy version of the boss dungeon, not only is that unrealistic and unimmersive, its flat out giving a false sense of accomplishment.
all accomplishments in pve games are illusions created by devs for player enjoyment anyway.
I put some players 12-15t old behind it who were scoffing it for the 'bad graphics' as it 'did not look like COD or BF'....
"Just try it" I said, "prove me wrong"
Well.....they lasted 1 minute....then it was 'game over'
"STUPID BORING GAME!!!!!" followed with some emorage and back it was playing GTA on the PS.
In short, oldschool 'boring' games are apparently still challenging enough for today's self entitled generation who know it all. :P Graphics are not the most important thing. Challenge and content is.
Oh, and the game was Ms Pacman, they did not survive the first map.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Oh, and the game was Ms Pacman, they did not survive the first map.
What is the point of making games too difficulty for 99.9% of the population? It is not like you need to train them for pacman skill because it is useful in life (unless the movie Pixel happens).
Why not just put in a difficult slider and let people have fun? Isn't that the point of games?
Originally posted by Dullahan That exclusivity that no longer exists in games is also one of the major reasons players no longer strive for mastery. If everyone can see the easy version of the boss dungeon, not only is that unrealistic and unimmersive, its flat out giving a false sense of accomplishment.
How so? Please do remember that less than 5% of people ever completed old heroic dungeons. So how is a game that locks story content behind a barrier that 95% of people will never achieve immersive?
The exclusivity never came from "seeing" a boss dungeon, it came from community. I belonged to a guild (in WoW) in my earlier years that was so exclusive that we didn't even have enough players to regularly complete 25-man content. However, to this day (3 or 4 years later) I still get people who are surprised to see my guild tag and say they didn't know we were still around (which we really aren't). The exclusivity was something created organically in the gaming community, not based on achievements of the guild itself. If you were ever invited, then you'd accept.
I see absolutely no reason NOT to spoon-feed content. Fact of the matter is that people never completed that content in the first place. So, if nothing else, you're creating greater immersion and greater knowledge of the gaming world people are "living" in. Why? People are currently disconnected from the game stories being told. Period. So they have zero connection to the game world and no compelling reason to stick around and spend their money.
Oh, and the game was Ms Pacman, they did not survive the first map.
What is the point of making games too difficulty for 99.9% of the population? It is not like you need to train them for pacman skill because it is useful in life (unless the movie Pixel happens).
Why not just put in a difficult slider and let people have fun? Isn't that the point of games?
If Ms Pacman is too difficult for the current gaming population then the global IQ level has dropped below retard level.
And it might as well point out one of the main problems with the games of today.
Plus: you don't get my point. R E A D.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Hehe I still have my Amiga 1000, one of the very first built.
Oh, and I have a working Amiga and C=64... on my Android phone with emulators =P
For those struck with nostalgia, there are emulators for most old systems, and the games can also be downloaded on the net.
Oh man do you still have it complete with box? the Amiga 1000? If so better keep it for now.
Still got my atari 2600 boxed and plan to sit on it for a while. Occasionally when among friends we actually play a few old games, but that's about it.
Wished I saved all my consoles or even homecomputers from back then...hehe I mean D#MN:
"The firm -- CleanBayArea -- said the woman dropped off boxes of old gadgets and "e-waste" one month ago, but didn't leave any contact information.
"She said that her husband had passed away and that she had decided to clean up their garage," the company said in a statement."
The recycling facility in Silicon Valley is trying to trace a woman who dumped a rare Apple 1 computer, which just sold to a private collector for $200,000.
Originally posted by Dullahan That exclusivity that no longer exists in games is also one of the major reasons players no longer strive for mastery. If everyone can see the easy version of the boss dungeon, not only is that unrealistic and unimmersive, its flat out giving a false sense of accomplishment.
How so? Please do remember that less than 5% of people ever completed old heroic dungeons. So how is a game that locks story content behind a barrier that 95% of people will never achieve immersive?
The exclusivity never came from "seeing" a boss dungeon, it came from community. I belonged to a guild (in WoW) in my earlier years that was so exclusive that we didn't even have enough players to regularly complete 25-man content. However, to this day (3 or 4 years later) I still get people who are surprised to see my guild tag and say they didn't know we were still around (which we really aren't). The exclusivity was something created organically in the gaming community, not based on achievements of the guild itself. If you were ever invited, then you'd accept.
I see absolutely no reason NOT to spoon-feed content. Fact of the matter is that people never completed that content in the first place. So, if nothing else, you're creating greater immersion and greater knowledge of the gaming world people are "living" in. Why? People are currently disconnected from the game stories being told. Period. So they have zero connection to the game world and no compelling reason to stick around and spend their money.
Its the desire to see new things that were previously inaccessible and improving your character that keeps people playing. The fact that you are spoon-fed everything in themepark games with so little time committed is the very reason those games lack longevity.
Oh, and the game was Ms Pacman, they did not survive the first map.
What is the point of making games too difficulty for 99.9% of the population? It is not like you need to train them for pacman skill because it is useful in life (unless the movie Pixel happens).
Why not just put in a difficult slider and let people have fun? Isn't that the point of games?
If Ms Pacman is too difficult for the current gaming population then the global IQ level has dropped below retard level.
And it might as well point out one of the main problems with the games of today.
Lol ... you need a high IQ to play a game that is pattern recognition and hand-eye coordination? What do you do with the high IQ? Reason with MS Pacman?
Don't tell me you think theoretical physicists have high MS Pacman skills.
Its the desire to see new things that were previously inaccessible and improving your character that keeps people playing. The fact that you are spoon-fed everything in themepark games with so little time committed is the very reason those games lack longevity.
so? Games don't need longevity. They only need to be fun for a while.
Its the desire to see new things that were previously inaccessible and improving your character that keeps people playing. The fact that you are spoon-fed everything in themepark games with so little time committed is the very reason those games lack longevity.
so? Games don't need longevity. They only need to be fun for a while.
The fact that they were designed to be persistent worlds seems to negate this. Then theres the issue of player retention that most MMOs are in a constant battle with that seems to say otherwise.
Oh, and the game was Ms Pacman, they did not survive the first map.
What is the point of making games too difficulty for 99.9% of the population? It is not like you need to train them for pacman skill because it is useful in life (unless the movie Pixel happens).
Why not just put in a difficult slider and let people have fun? Isn't that the point of games?
If Ms Pacman is too difficult for the current gaming population then the global IQ level has dropped below retard level.
And it might as well point out one of the main problems with the games of today.
Oh, and the game was Ms Pacman, they did not survive the first map.
What is the point of making games too difficulty for 99.9% of the population? It is not like you need to train them for pacman skill because it is useful in life (unless the movie Pixel happens).
Why not just put in a difficult slider and let people have fun? Isn't that the point of games?
If Ms Pacman is too difficult for the current gaming population then the global IQ level has dropped below retard level.
And it might as well point out one of the main problems with the games of today.
Plus: you don't get my point. R E A D.
To be fair iMs Pacman and coin operated games were designed with a game play that allowed for more quarters to be shoved in the machine. Trial and error allowed you to advance and provided coin to the owner of the machine. I don't think that makes todays gamer a moron they just didn't grow up with this mechanic. I also don't believe they are too dumb to figure it out. Modern games just don't have this type of hamster wheel as it isn't necesary.
From the point of yet another Old Schooler, I think a mix of both worlds is what's needed for a game to flourish. What I mean by that is there are a ton of great things about both new and old games.
Here's what I want to see and hopefully Pantheon is listening
1.) Slow leveling ala EQ1. Having areas where people can solo and others that require groups should also be a thing since not everyone can spend long play sessions.
2.) Both instances and open world bosses/dungeons. After playing on the new EQ TLP servers I fully revert my no instances policy. Having instances allows guilds/groups to schedule things on their time without being locked out or having to poop sock.
3.) In depth tradeskills. Give me a reason to actually want to do this. Crafting should be something that is needed in the world not secondary. Crafters should be able to make some very powerful things that are ideally wanted by the population past lvl 10.
4.) Limited quick travel. Moving from continent to continent is fine but only allow say druid/wiz ports from EQ1. The insta porting to dungeons and such is just too much and ruins immersion.
5.) Simplified combat. Not simple, but simplified. EQ1 was a bit too simple. EQ2 was way the hell overboard. I don't want to have 30+ buttons to watch or even have on my bars for that matter. Give me 15-20 skills that progress via level and we're good. If you need to use a 13 button rotation to put out good damage then you are trying to hard and limiting our ability to be social.
6.) Group based with meaningful questing. It's an MMO. If I wanted a single player game I have a console for that. Quests shouldn't be something that I use to go from place to place gaining levels. They should be something I search for because of the rewards offered. XP should come from actually fighting and exploring the world. Again still have those areas at all levels where people can solo if they want. Even if that area doesn't provide as much xp as the others it gives people with little time something to do or those looking for a group to not sit idle.
I'm sure I could keep going but that's about the basics. I want the difficulty of old school with some new school flair. Essentially I wanted a new EQ1 but when the TLP servers dropped and how bad it is poop socking raid targets it is just not what I can do anymore. 2am hate/fear raids for CT/Inny when I have to be at work for 5am just doesn't work.
Really hoping that an up and coming title can at least give us some sense of this but I think the only one coming close is Pantheon.
To be fair iMs Pacman and coin operated games were designed with a game play that allowed for more quarters to be shoved in the machine. Trial and error allowed you to advance and provided coin to the owner of the machine. I don't think that makes todays gamer a moron they just didn't grow up with this mechanic. I also don't believe they are too dumb to figure it out. Modern games just don't have this type of hamster wheel as it isn't necesary.
Yes they did. Just look at WoW with their purple addiction grind. It's a bit different, yet still a cashgrab.
I am just mentioning that the post I referred to was scoffing on old games with poor graphics, while I was pointing out that the current generation only looks at graphics. Yet the content of those ancient games themselves can be more challenging then the games they play NOW.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Comments
I'm not saying that's how games should be.
But I think you and many people have the idea that mmorpg are bad because you dont' enjoy it. You are not the center of universe. You act like no one quit those old games. I can literally take the word from a few old developers that WoW pretty much steal a bunch of their players. And for your information Wow is much longer lasting than many other mmorpg, and not everyone quit because all there is are dungeons, dailys and raids.
wait .. I want to go into the dungeon and kill the boss, but I have to wait in line after 50 other groups .. so how was that doing just about anything I wanted?
Or in UO, i want to play in peace, and someone wants to fight me.
Modern games are much better at doing whatever I want in a game.
Originally posted by laokoko
"if you want to be a game designer, you should sell your house and fund your game. Since if you won't even fund your own game, no one will".
Ya, and with all that convenience, you have time to post here 12 hours a day.
Why would MOBA players be all that interested in the topic anyway? Mostly they are polarised into one of two games, either LOL or DOTA2, with Smite clinging on for dear life. Rather than being interested in old school MMO's they are probably more interested in how Heroes of the Storm pans out etc. as any success by that game will probably be at the expense of the other 3, although, have to say, if HOTS does become really popular, then you can probably wave goodbye to Smite.
nah ... posting is like 30 sec a pop, way way more convenient than playing any game. Otherwise, why do you think I am here?
I am more interested in how HOTS pans out than old school MMOs, and i don't play MOBA much.
HOTS is a pretty good game. Slick blizz polish. Some variation of what to do in different maps. Restricted chat (you cannot trash talk the other teams). Fast convenient games .. it is a lot shorter than LOL .. 15/20 min games rather than 45 min.
I like it so far.
Yes, WOW's best gear was (and is) difficult to attain.
Some players take their love of sandbox (player freedom/authorship) a little too far, becoming amateur revisionist-historians IRL.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
all accomplishments in pve games are illusions created by devs for player enjoyment anyway.
Well, I still have a working C64 and Atari 2800.
I put some players 12-15t old behind it who were scoffing it for the 'bad graphics' as it 'did not look like COD or BF'....
"Just try it" I said, "prove me wrong"
Well.....they lasted 1 minute....then it was 'game over'
"STUPID BORING GAME!!!!!" followed with some emorage and back it was playing GTA on the PS.
In short, oldschool 'boring' games are apparently still challenging enough for today's self entitled generation who know it all. :P Graphics are not the most important thing. Challenge and content is.
Oh, and the game was Ms Pacman, they did not survive the first map.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
What is the point of making games too difficulty for 99.9% of the population? It is not like you need to train them for pacman skill because it is useful in life (unless the movie Pixel happens).
Why not just put in a difficult slider and let people have fun? Isn't that the point of games?
How so? Please do remember that less than 5% of people ever completed old heroic dungeons. So how is a game that locks story content behind a barrier that 95% of people will never achieve immersive?
The exclusivity never came from "seeing" a boss dungeon, it came from community. I belonged to a guild (in WoW) in my earlier years that was so exclusive that we didn't even have enough players to regularly complete 25-man content. However, to this day (3 or 4 years later) I still get people who are surprised to see my guild tag and say they didn't know we were still around (which we really aren't). The exclusivity was something created organically in the gaming community, not based on achievements of the guild itself. If you were ever invited, then you'd accept.
I see absolutely no reason NOT to spoon-feed content. Fact of the matter is that people never completed that content in the first place. So, if nothing else, you're creating greater immersion and greater knowledge of the gaming world people are "living" in. Why? People are currently disconnected from the game stories being told. Period. So they have zero connection to the game world and no compelling reason to stick around and spend their money.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
Remember:
No hate = no game.
I'm still PKing
People still butthurt as ever
Shits cash
Sway all day, butterfly flaps all the way!
If Ms Pacman is too difficult for the current gaming population then the global IQ level has dropped below retard level.
And it might as well point out one of the main problems with the games of today.
Plus: you don't get my point. R E A D.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Oh man do you still have it complete with box? the Amiga 1000? If so better keep it for now.
Still got my atari 2600 boxed and plan to sit on it for a while. Occasionally when among friends we actually play a few old games, but that's about it.
Wished I saved all my consoles or even homecomputers from back then...hehe I mean D#MN:
http://money.cnn.com/2015/06/01/technology/woman-dumps-apple-one-computer/
"The firm -- CleanBayArea -- said the woman dropped off boxes of old gadgets and "e-waste" one month ago, but didn't leave any contact information.
"She said that her husband had passed away and that she had decided to clean up their garage," the company said in a statement."
The recycling facility in Silicon Valley is trying to trace a woman who dumped a rare Apple 1 computer, which just sold to a private collector for $200,000.
Its the desire to see new things that were previously inaccessible and improving your character that keeps people playing. The fact that you are spoon-fed everything in themepark games with so little time committed is the very reason those games lack longevity.
Lol ... you need a high IQ to play a game that is pattern recognition and hand-eye coordination? What do you do with the high IQ? Reason with MS Pacman?
Don't tell me you think theoretical physicists have high MS Pacman skills.
so? Games don't need longevity. They only need to be fun for a while.
The fact that they were designed to be persistent worlds seems to negate this. Then theres the issue of player retention that most MMOs are in a constant battle with that seems to say otherwise.
So we can weed out the little shits
Sway all day, butterfly flaps all the way!
To be fair iMs Pacman and coin operated games were designed with a game play that allowed for more quarters to be shoved in the machine. Trial and error allowed you to advance and provided coin to the owner of the machine. I don't think that makes todays gamer a moron they just didn't grow up with this mechanic. I also don't believe they are too dumb to figure it out. Modern games just don't have this type of hamster wheel as it isn't necesary.
From the point of yet another Old Schooler, I think a mix of both worlds is what's needed for a game to flourish. What I mean by that is there are a ton of great things about both new and old games.
Here's what I want to see and hopefully Pantheon is listening
1.) Slow leveling ala EQ1. Having areas where people can solo and others that require groups should also be a thing since not everyone can spend long play sessions.
2.) Both instances and open world bosses/dungeons. After playing on the new EQ TLP servers I fully revert my no instances policy. Having instances allows guilds/groups to schedule things on their time without being locked out or having to poop sock.
3.) In depth tradeskills. Give me a reason to actually want to do this. Crafting should be something that is needed in the world not secondary. Crafters should be able to make some very powerful things that are ideally wanted by the population past lvl 10.
4.) Limited quick travel. Moving from continent to continent is fine but only allow say druid/wiz ports from EQ1. The insta porting to dungeons and such is just too much and ruins immersion.
5.) Simplified combat. Not simple, but simplified. EQ1 was a bit too simple. EQ2 was way the hell overboard. I don't want to have 30+ buttons to watch or even have on my bars for that matter. Give me 15-20 skills that progress via level and we're good. If you need to use a 13 button rotation to put out good damage then you are trying to hard and limiting our ability to be social.
6.) Group based with meaningful questing. It's an MMO. If I wanted a single player game I have a console for that. Quests shouldn't be something that I use to go from place to place gaining levels. They should be something I search for because of the rewards offered. XP should come from actually fighting and exploring the world. Again still have those areas at all levels where people can solo if they want. Even if that area doesn't provide as much xp as the others it gives people with little time something to do or those looking for a group to not sit idle.
I'm sure I could keep going but that's about the basics. I want the difficulty of old school with some new school flair. Essentially I wanted a new EQ1 but when the TLP servers dropped and how bad it is poop socking raid targets it is just not what I can do anymore. 2am hate/fear raids for CT/Inny when I have to be at work for 5am just doesn't work.
Really hoping that an up and coming title can at least give us some sense of this but I think the only one coming close is Pantheon.
Yes they did. Just look at WoW with their purple addiction grind. It's a bit different, yet still a cashgrab.
I am just mentioning that the post I referred to was scoffing on old games with poor graphics, while I was pointing out that the current generation only looks at graphics. Yet the content of those ancient games themselves can be more challenging then the games they play NOW.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"