New mmorpgs are afraid to go open world like FFXI for example. Everything has to fit in a nice little instance box and it loses the mmo feel when you're restricted to a small group or even medium sized group. Even worse is they've added dungeon finders to teleport people from anywhere in the open world to the dungeon box which lessens the immersion even more. I dunno about you, but this style of gaming just feels lazy.
Originally posted by Sildanair New mmorpgs are afraid to go open world like FFXI for example. Everything has to fit in a nice little instance box and it loses the mmo feel when you're restricted to a small group or even medium sized group. Even worse is they've added dungeon finders to teleport people from anywhere in the open world to the dungeon box which lessens the immersion even more. I dunno about you, but this style of gaming just feels lazy.
I would love another mmo like this but sadly I have issues getting into eastern style fantasy these days.
Originally posted by delete5230 This is a stigma that seems be attached to the words " Old School ".....The only reason I could see is posters here pick up on the word OLD and run with it.
What's up with this ?
Why do people ever leave an existing 'old school' game that has everything they want?
Originally posted by delete5230 This is a stigma that seems be attached to the words " Old School ".....The only reason I could see is posters here pick up on the word OLD and run with it.
What's up with this ?
Why do people ever leave an existing 'old school' game that has everything they want?
Why? Because the Devs keep ''improving" the games by removing the "Old School" features.
personally when i say oldschool i mean the passion and intelligence that was behind old school games. there is no denying that gaming industry grew larger and thanks to that it's all about money now. new IPs that are actually masterpieces are rare now and some of those that are regarded as masterpieces just makes me facepalm but i really don't blame critics since our expectations got lower. at least now some appreciate the gems we had back in the days more.
as for those that are unsatisfied with the state of MMO genre, they don't know the worst is yet to come unless games like Star Citizen deliver their promises (which i am not even sure is an MMO or not). we are passed the age of cloning World of Warcraft, but at a great cost. almost all companies with money spent it already on cloning World of Warcraft so they are burnt out. we are probably gonna see the genre getting even more simplified for consoles, which will help it's popularity but again at a great cost.
my top MMOs: UO,DAOC,WoW,GW2
most of my posts are just my opinions they are not facts,it is the same for you too.
Much of this discussion seems to boil down to a few simple issues.
1) Most gamers have trouble differentiating between good / bad game design and personal preference. You can enjoy a feature that is inherently 'bad design', but it can still be fun (for you). These are not necessarily mutually exclusive. For example, some people want a newer full-loot pvp game with updated graphics & all that and want it to be popular. However you can't have a system that inherently pushes players away from your game AND have it be well funded and popular at the same time. Within that context such a system IS bad design, but the key word there is context. Design is all about what you are trying to accomplish within a specific game, and not some over-arcing truth that applies to all games equally.
2) Many gamers seem to have trouble differentiating between community & gameplay. While good gameplay can absolutely help make a good community possible, having a good community is a separate thing entirely. There are communities for almost anything you can think of. What makes them good or not is entirely dependant on how they are handled, how the members are treated, and how they treat newcomers. When it comes to games this largely comes down to each dev's stance on community and how they choose to handle it. Some are much better at it than others.
With 'Old School' games there was a sort of 'in the trenches camaraderie', but many of the old school games actually didn't have great communities. However the few that stand out had really good ones. It was a lot more polarized back then, where as now it's more diffused over many different games.
3) A failure to understand how much the market has shifted. Certain aspects of those older MMOs just can't exist in today's market. The way people play games is so much different from how it was 10-20 years ago.
Why? Because the Devs keep ''improving" the games by removing the "Old School" features.
So you're missing something you want: editorial approval.
Unfortunately, that's not provided in your terms of use.
Actually it is, if they change the game in ways I don't care for, I can stop playing, which I've done on several occasions, most notably for DAOC and the TOA/New Frontiers expansions. Seems a lot of others agreed with me.
One reason I still play EVE is the core game play is pretty much as it was when I first started in 2007. Sure, there's been lots of changes, but somehow they retain what makes the game fun for me, so I still stick with it, in fact paying for 5 accounts. (I don't even PLEX)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by delete5230 This is a stigma that seems be attached to the words " Old School ".....The only reason I could see is posters here pick up on the word OLD and run with it.
What's up with this ?
Why do people ever leave an existing 'old school' game that has everything they want?
Why? Because the Devs keep ''improving" the games by removing the "Old School" features.
Why else? Because they ALL WENT F2P, with nasty cash shops !!!
Why else even more? They made them REDICUSLY EASY...Best example is LOTRO !!!
There not the same games anymore.....I guess this goes along with "improving" like the poster above.
Originally posted by delete5230 This is a stigma that seems be attached to the words " Old School ".....The only reason I could see is posters here pick up on the word OLD and run with it.
What's up with this ?
Why do people ever leave an existing 'old school' game that has everything they want?
You always bring up this strawman, and people always inform you that the older games we loved have drastically changed.
Originally posted by delete5230 This is a stigma that seems be attached to the words " Old School ".....The only reason I could see is posters here pick up on the word OLD and run with it.
What's up with this ?
Why do people ever leave an existing 'old school' game that has everything they want?
You always bring up this strawman, and people always inform you that the older games we loved have drastically changed.
Yeah, like Everquest. They removed the corpse runs to make it more palatable to a wider audience but that one change really neutered the feeling of danger and distance in the game (being deep in a dungeon wasn't so scary anymore, there was no risk of of a difficult corpse run). It is too bad, we really lost something with all these convenience features being implemented (heavy instancing, so much fast travel, lack of death penalty).
Originally posted by delete5230 THE ONLY PROBLEM IS THEY STOPED MAKING OLD SCHOOL MMOS. There fore it's the only reference ANYONE HAS !
Have you ever stopped to think WHY devs have stopped making old school MMOs?
Because MMORPGs have been "Mainstream" for at least 10 years now.
Being mainstream means you cater to the lowest-common-denominator so products need to be easy, shallow and shiny.
Companies can then just shovel derivative slop to the transient, tasteless masses and make way more money than they did back when they had to actually create something a bit unique, deep and innovative to survive.
It's unfortunately standard business.
Make sure you savor things in life as much as you can when they are new and fresh. They're never like that again and neither are we.
MMOs today are NOT MMOS, plain and simple....they are something else. You could attach any word you like to what ever they are, but there not mmos.
You can poke fun at this topic all you like but EVERYONE has to be able to face that were in a decline of staying power in all games made as of the past few years.
Pantheon is my last hope. I'm keeping a loose eye on this one, very loose, because if it will have a cash shop, I'm taking my ball and bat and going home.
What is with these people thinking they speak for EVERYONE! You dont speak for EVERYONE trying to act like you do is just ridiculous. You lose ALL credibility when your rant goes off into I SPEAK FOR EVERYONE crap.
MMOs today are NOT MMOS, plain and simple....they are something else. You could attach any word you like to what ever they are, but there not mmos.
You can poke fun at this topic all you like but EVERYONE has to be able to face that were in a decline of staying power in all games made as of the past few years.
Pantheon is my last hope. I'm keeping a loose eye on this one, very loose, because if it will have a cash shop, I'm taking my ball and bat and going home.
They are MMOs, just not ones that utilize the medium as much as they could IMO. Some people just like playing solo in a game with other real people around. Some don't have the total time or solid time to play a more "old school" game. Would you want to play with someone who may have to leave for a minute or two at a time because they need to put their 3yo back to bed?
Luckily there are MMOs coming out that are "new old school" titles. One of note is Saga of Lucimia and I'm surprised it isn't listed on this site yet. They have been developing and posting videos for a while now. Their deal is that everything in the game will required a group and that dungeons will take weeks and months to complete.
MMOs today are NOT MMOS, plain and simple....they are something else. You could attach any word you like to what ever they are, but there not mmos.
You can poke fun at this topic all you like but EVERYONE has to be able to face that were in a decline of staying power in all games made as of the past few years.
Pantheon is my last hope. I'm keeping a loose eye on this one, very loose, because if it will have a cash shop, I'm taking my ball and bat and going home.
What is with these people thinking they speak for EVERYONE! You dont speak for EVERYONE trying to act like you do is just ridiculous. You lose ALL credibility when your rant goes off into I SPEAK FOR EVERYONE crap.
Well you are right, for people who can't see the forest for the trees, I suppose he isn't speaking for them.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
MMOs today are NOT MMOS, plain and simple....they are something else. You could attach any word you like to what ever they are, but there not mmos.
You can poke fun at this topic all you like but EVERYONE has to be able to face that were in a decline of staying power in all games made as of the past few years.
Pantheon is my last hope. I'm keeping a loose eye on this one, very loose, because if it will have a cash shop, I'm taking my ball and bat and going home.
What is with these people thinking they speak for EVERYONE! You dont speak for EVERYONE trying to act like you do is just ridiculous. You lose ALL credibility when your rant goes off into I SPEAK FOR EVERYONE crap.
Well you are right, for people who can't see the forest for the trees, I suppose he isn't speaking for them.
I would bet there are more people playing and enjoying MMORPGS right now then there are "old school player" QQing on forums about how mmorpgs are not "old school" so looks like its you guys are who stuck in the woods.
Those that consider themselves "Old School" and see what is good and bad in both today's and yesteryear games have perspective. That has been stated already but that is what experience gives you. You see things through the filters of success and failure. Take something you thought of as important years ago thinking it was an absolute only to find out over the passage of time it really was a token thing and now you wonder what you were thinking?! This is not a told yah so moment or something to flame on about it is just what it is. This also not a discount on contrary opinions since that is what establishes good debate and discussion about the pro's and con's of the games we play. I know my children are classically trained gamers. I taught them the good ,the bad and the ugly about gaming--most to do with those people that are elitists but that's another thread all together. They have seen and played the older games. Mostly watched but they know what they are looking at when comparing games--old and new alike. A phrase comes to mind "you can never go back". That said --you can't. The people you gamed with the trials and tribulations you went through in the older games just can't be duplicated or mimicked. There is only hope that future games will take the good from the older games. You can't always nor is there a need to always re-invent the wheel.
+1 an actual 'old school' gamer as thru should be, an experienced philosophical gamer. My only comment is that it is possible to visit old games and get short term bursts of nOstalgic pleasure, but that does not mean those old games are better, far from it everything does tend to prove over time, thinking the reverse is nonsense - e.g developers who built those old school games still dev today, but with better tech.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
MMOs today are NOT MMOS, plain and simple....they are something else. You could attach any word you like to what ever they are, but there not mmos.
You can poke fun at this topic all you like but EVERYONE has to be able to face that were in a decline of staying power in all games made as of the past few years.
Pantheon is my last hope. I'm keeping a loose eye on this one, very loose, because if it will have a cash shop, I'm taking my ball and bat and going home.
What is with these people thinking they speak for EVERYONE! You dont speak for EVERYONE trying to act like you do is just ridiculous. You lose ALL credibility when your rant goes off into I SPEAK FOR EVERYONE crap.
Well you are right, for people who can't see the forest for the trees, I suppose he isn't speaking for them.
He is also not speaking for those who have experiences the old MMOS, and find the new ones a lot better games.
Why? Because the Devs keep ''improving" the games by removing the "Old School" features.
Yeh ... removing old school features that few likes (like down-time) is a good way to improve the games. You don't think the devs did that by accident, do you?
When playing mmos old school is the only way to go. I wish developers would stop trying to re-invent the wheel because the wheel was never broken in mmos.
People can pretend that new mmorpgs are perfect all they want but they are not, neither where old school but there far better then people give credit for you take elements from both sides people not just one. Also stop generalizing older games that is very ignorant and chlidish when you do this, and your just showing your immaturity.
Originally posted by delete5230 This is a stigma that seems be attached to the words " Old School ".....The only reason I could see is posters here pick up on the word OLD and run with it.
What's up with this ?
Why do people ever leave an existing 'old school' game that has everything they want?
You always bring up this strawman, and people always inform you that the older games we loved have drastically changed.
Yeah, like Everquest. They removed the corpse runs to make it more palatable to a wider audience but that one change really neutered the feeling of danger and distance in the game (being deep in a dungeon wasn't so scary anymore, there was no risk of of a difficult corpse run). It is too bad, we really lost something with all these convenience features being implemented (heavy instancing, so much fast travel, lack of death penalty).
Comments
I would love another mmo like this but sadly I have issues getting into eastern style fantasy these days.
Why do people ever leave an existing 'old school' game that has everything they want?
Why? Because the Devs keep ''improving" the games by removing the "Old School" features.
So you're missing something you want: editorial approval.
Unfortunately, that's not provided in your terms of use.
personally when i say oldschool i mean the passion and intelligence that was behind old school games. there is no denying that gaming industry grew larger and thanks to that it's all about money now. new IPs that are actually masterpieces are rare now and some of those that are regarded as masterpieces just makes me facepalm but i really don't blame critics since our expectations got lower. at least now some appreciate the gems we had back in the days more.
as for those that are unsatisfied with the state of MMO genre, they don't know the worst is yet to come unless games like Star Citizen deliver their promises (which i am not even sure is an MMO or not). we are passed the age of cloning World of Warcraft, but at a great cost. almost all companies with money spent it already on cloning World of Warcraft so they are burnt out. we are probably gonna see the genre getting even more simplified for consoles, which will help it's popularity but again at a great cost.my top MMOs: UO,DAOC,WoW,GW2
most of my posts are just my opinions they are not facts,it is the same for you too.
Much of this discussion seems to boil down to a few simple issues.
1) Most gamers have trouble differentiating between good / bad game design and personal preference. You can enjoy a feature that is inherently 'bad design', but it can still be fun (for you). These are not necessarily mutually exclusive. For example, some people want a newer full-loot pvp game with updated graphics & all that and want it to be popular. However you can't have a system that inherently pushes players away from your game AND have it be well funded and popular at the same time. Within that context such a system IS bad design, but the key word there is context. Design is all about what you are trying to accomplish within a specific game, and not some over-arcing truth that applies to all games equally.
2) Many gamers seem to have trouble differentiating between community & gameplay. While good gameplay can absolutely help make a good community possible, having a good community is a separate thing entirely. There are communities for almost anything you can think of. What makes them good or not is entirely dependant on how they are handled, how the members are treated, and how they treat newcomers. When it comes to games this largely comes down to each dev's stance on community and how they choose to handle it. Some are much better at it than others.
With 'Old School' games there was a sort of 'in the trenches camaraderie', but many of the old school games actually didn't have great communities. However the few that stand out had really good ones. It was a lot more polarized back then, where as now it's more diffused over many different games.
3) A failure to understand how much the market has shifted. Certain aspects of those older MMOs just can't exist in today's market. The way people play games is so much different from how it was 10-20 years ago.
Actually it is, if they change the game in ways I don't care for, I can stop playing, which I've done on several occasions, most notably for DAOC and the TOA/New Frontiers expansions. Seems a lot of others agreed with me.
One reason I still play EVE is the core game play is pretty much as it was when I first started in 2007. Sure, there's been lots of changes, but somehow they retain what makes the game fun for me, so I still stick with it, in fact paying for 5 accounts. (I don't even PLEX)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Why else? Because they ALL WENT F2P, with nasty cash shops !!!
Why else even more? They made them REDICUSLY EASY...Best example is LOTRO !!!
There not the same games anymore.....I guess this goes along with "improving" like the poster above.
You always bring up this strawman, and people always inform you that the older games we loved have drastically changed.
Yeah, like Everquest. They removed the corpse runs to make it more palatable to a wider audience but that one change really neutered the feeling of danger and distance in the game (being deep in a dungeon wasn't so scary anymore, there was no risk of of a difficult corpse run). It is too bad, we really lost something with all these convenience features being implemented (heavy instancing, so much fast travel, lack of death penalty).
Because MMORPGs have been "Mainstream" for at least 10 years now.
Being mainstream means you cater to the lowest-common-denominator so products need to be easy, shallow and shiny.
Companies can then just shovel derivative slop to the transient, tasteless masses and make way more money than they did back when they had to actually create something a bit unique, deep and innovative to survive.
It's unfortunately standard business.
Make sure you savor things in life as much as you can when they are new and fresh. They're never like that again and neither are we.
What is with these people thinking they speak for EVERYONE! You dont speak for EVERYONE trying to act like you do is just ridiculous. You lose ALL credibility when your rant goes off into I SPEAK FOR EVERYONE crap.
They are MMOs, just not ones that utilize the medium as much as they could IMO. Some people just like playing solo in a game with other real people around. Some don't have the total time or solid time to play a more "old school" game. Would you want to play with someone who may have to leave for a minute or two at a time because they need to put their 3yo back to bed?
Luckily there are MMOs coming out that are "new old school" titles. One of note is Saga of Lucimia and I'm surprised it isn't listed on this site yet. They have been developing and posting videos for a while now. Their deal is that everything in the game will required a group and that dungeons will take weeks and months to complete.
Well you are right, for people who can't see the forest for the trees, I suppose he isn't speaking for them.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I would bet there are more people playing and enjoying MMORPGS right now then there are "old school player" QQing on forums about how mmorpgs are not "old school" so looks like its you guys are who stuck in the woods.
Those that consider themselves "Old School" and see what is good and bad in both today's and yesteryear games have perspective. That has been stated already but that is what experience gives you. You see things through the filters of success and failure. Take something you thought of as important years ago thinking it was an absolute only to find out over the passage of time it really was a token thing and now you wonder what you were thinking?! This is not a told yah so moment or something to flame on about it is just what it is. This also not a discount on contrary opinions since that is what establishes good debate and discussion about the pro's and con's of the games we play. I know my children are classically trained gamers. I taught them the good ,the bad and the ugly about gaming--most to do with those people that are elitists but that's another thread all together. They have seen and played the older games. Mostly watched but they know what they are looking at when comparing games--old and new alike. A phrase comes to mind "you can never go back". That said --you can't. The people you gamed with the trials and tribulations you went through in the older games just can't be duplicated or mimicked. There is only hope that future games will take the good from the older games. You can't always nor is there a need to always re-invent the wheel.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
He is also not speaking for those who have experiences the old MMOS, and find the new ones a lot better games.
Yeh ... removing old school features that few likes (like down-time) is a good way to improve the games. You don't think the devs did that by accident, do you?
Reading most every post, I would say off the cuff that 80% don't get it.
They think if an " Old School mmo " were to be made it would be like a 10 year old game.
It's amazing how people think !......It's like buying something on a credit card and not expecting to ever have to pay for it.
Same thing
This.