Originally posted by aliven Oh, look diary, another thread about how new mmos are bad. And how glorified old schoolers think they are right So funny...
Oh look diary, another poster about how new mmos are perfect, and how glorified chat rooms mmorpg players think they are right:) So funny.
Reading most every post, I would say off the cuff that 80% don't get it.
Wait, let's try to think like, you know, mature adults.
So 80% "dont get it". Which means, 80% don't agree with your post. Couldn't it be that actually YOU and the 20% are wrong, and the 80% are actually right?
That's how democracy works.
OK good idea, Lets be mature OK ?
Your saying if a new mmo were made with Old school qualities it would have kill 10 rat quest, low 2001 graphics, and raids that would last 9 hours, and the coding would be a mess.
Is that what your saying ?
Like one or not, do you think it would have stick figures ?
Well... other than the fact that saying that the old was better than the new is a critical cliche that has been used like forever, no there is noting wrong with saying old MMOs were great and the new are shit.
I bet the same thing was said about making your own fire.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Reading most every post, I would say off the cuff that 80% don't get it.
Wait, let's try to think like, you know, mature adults.
So 80% "dont get it". Which means, 80% don't agree with your post. Couldn't it be that actually YOU and the 20% are wrong, and the 80% are actually right?
That's how democracy works.
OK good idea, Lets be mature OK ?
Your saying if a new mmo were made with Old school qualities it would have kill 10 rat quest, low 2001 graphics, and raids that would last 9 hours, and the coding would be a mess.
Is that what your saying ?
Like one or not, do you think it would have stick figures ?
First back up, what is it that you think people don't get? Reading all your posts/threads suggests you feel people aren't giving you the authority on this topic you think you deserve. IE the authority on what's good or bad, the authority on what an MMORPG must be, etc... This is a running theme with your threads.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by aliven Oh, look diary, another thread about how new mmos are bad. And how glorified old schoolers think they are right So funny...
Oh look diary, another poster about how new mmos are perfect, and how glorified chat rooms mmorpg players think they are right:) So funny.
But then, "old school" MMORPGs had less than 1 million players total, on the whole planet. Nowadays, the MMORPG market has over 50 million players, and I'm conservative.
Indeed... so funny.
Jean-L, You can't seem to get the word OLD out of your head.
Maybe I should reword it to original formula made in 2015 !
MMOs today are NOT MMOS, plain and simple....they are something else. You could attach any word you like to what ever they are, but there not mmos.
You can poke fun at this topic all you like but EVERYONE has to be able to face that were in a decline of staying power in all games made as of the past few years.
Pantheon is my last hope. I'm keeping a loose eye on this one, very loose, because if it will have a cash shop, I'm taking my ball and bat and going home.
Reading most every post, I would say off the cuff that 80% don't get it.
Wait, let's try to think like, you know, mature adults.
So 80% "dont get it". Which means, 80% don't agree with your post. Couldn't it be that actually YOU and the 20% are wrong, and the 80% are actually right?
That's how democracy works.
OK good idea, Lets be mature OK ?
Your saying if a new mmo were made with Old school qualities it would have kill 10 rat quest, low 2001 graphics, and raids that would last 9 hours, and the coding would be a mess.
Is that what your saying ?
Like one or not, do you think it would have stick figures ?
First back up, what is it that you think people don't get? Reading all your posts/threads suggests you feel people aren't giving you the authority on this topic you think you deserve. IE the authority on what's good or bad, the authority on what an MMORPG must be, etc... This is a running theme with your threads.
I'm sure you could see that
1) People are forever searching for a new mmo, even with over 200 mmos on the list here.
2) A lot of the people are pissed about cash shops.
3) A lot of people are looking for an mmo that will last more than 30 days, they would like to find a home for a long time.
4) Archage, proved that people are looking for an Old school style, but greed got the better of developers.
5) Lots of post on General Discussions Have been made on here, asking for the same thing.
6) Pantheon, is becoming the "looking forward mmo ", because of the promise of old school qualities, and that mmo is years away !
MMOs today are NOT MMOS, plain and simple....they are something else. You could attach any word you like to what ever they are, but there not mmos.
You can poke fun at this topic all you like but EVERYONE has to be able to face that were in a decline of staying power in all games made as of the past few years.
Pantheon is my last hope. I'm keeping a loose eye on this one, very loose, because if it will have a cash shop, I'm taking my ball and bat and going home.
This is why - making silly claims that MMOs today are not MMOS....
Also decline of staying power, where is your data?
If this were true we would have a handful of games on the market, not 1000s.
Where's his data? Are you going to pay someone to put in the hours of number crunching and the time it would take to actually gather the "real" data and not the half truths and general lies that are reported? I would imagine not, I know I wouldn't. He may not have the cold, has facts (which would get ripped to pieces by fanbois here even if God Almighty personally provided them) but there is enough circumstantial evidence to lend support to his points.
Even your last sentence can be used to support the OP. The fact that there are 1000s of games means the market is being flooded with quantity and not quality. This has resulted in games being released that do not take as long to develop as they once did. While technology has advanced since the early days of EQ and UO to reduce coding time, problem is they aren't investing time to develop the game worlds, environments, and thereby creating deeper emersive games. The games are lifeless and shallow compared to the flawed old school games to many that once played them.
EQ and UO drew you into the world and created communities where as today, games are shallow and basically single player games with the occasional group and raid content. The fact that most newer games are solo centric directly supports the OPs point that MMOs are not what they used to be, and this is a direct result of quality being focused more on pumping out stable games than on the entire gaming experience.
gamers used to overlook the bugs because the game world was an overall experience that made you want to explore to see what is over the next hill while now, you run into invisible walls, pulled by the nose from spot to spot. This is another result of overall quality taking a back seat. The rails often result in fewer lines of code to debug, fewer unintentional impacts to changing line 1,789,236, and decreases the Period of Performance, or POP, of the project. This means revenue is realized sooner and that makes the stockholders happier.
Besides, if games were being published that were more along the lines of EQ and UO then there wouldn't be 1000s of games on the market because the players wouldn't grow tired of the more in depth games and jump to the flavor of the month that has been the "norm" for 10+ years now.
You must remember, numbers never lie, but they they can be twisted to support anyone's personal agenda. I took one statement and twisted it to support the OP, and I could make another post taking both your post and this one and completely refute the OP. It's all in the eye of the beholder and that is all that really counts anyway.
I personally agree with the OP. Give me an old school game with today's stability and tech and I would gladly pay a monthly sub, but we al know that won't happen anytime soon...
1) People are forever searching for a new mmo, even with over 200 mmos on the list here.
2) A lot of the people are pissed about cash shops.
3) A lot of people are looking for an mmo that will last more than 30 days, they would like to find a home for a long time.
4) Archage, proved that people are looking for an Old school style, but greed got the better of developers.
5) Lots of post on General Discussions Have been made on here, asking for the same thing.
6) Pantheon, is becoming the "looking forward mmo ", because of the promise of old school qualities, and that mmo is years away !
1) the problem here is that some people are always searching for something. Some are essentially never happy with what's there now... that's just a part of human nature.
2) yes some people are, yet some support it frivolously..
3) A lot of people find whats there now suitable for that.
4) yes some people are..
5) Yes and many if not most of those threads are made by the same handful of people, how many have you created thus far as an example?
6) uh, have you paid attention to that prior to pantheon? The game on paper is always the next "big" thing...
Therein lies the point a select few never seem to get, your view isn't the only one out there, how you see things in the genre isn't how everyone does (even among other "vets").
Hence the question I posed of authority on the topic in general. For every argument you bring forward there is a legitimate counter argument. That's the way subjective topics work. No matter how many times you create the same topic, that will be the result. You want to claim it's like this because people "don't get it", it could just as easily be said it is the other way around... you don't get that this is a subjective discussion.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Games like GW2, FF14, ESO, TSW, Archeage, LOTR are all AAA games that have released in the last couple of years that are high quality and offer far more than the mmorpgs that were released 10-15 years ago. There are also more people playing MMORPG now than there ever was. To suggest that games 10-15 years ago are better than any games now is ofc a nonsense.
The real issue is that with a niche genre you should only expect 1 or 2 titles a year max that hit the top of the market, because the niche can only support so many games. This was allways the case with the RPG genre, the RTS Genre, the Turn based Genre etc etrc
At the moment the genre is flooded with players (mainly in WOW) that confuse what they are playing with a mmo Role Playing Game, and so not suprisingly they are dissapointed with new mmorpg as they come out - they don't get it. They also don't understand that a mmorpg wont have millions of players, its a niche.
As for 'MMO', 'Massively' means nothing, and obviously Multiplayer online games are going to continue alongside single player games as us players want both.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
imho, if you took a game like DAoC or EQ1 and just updated the graphics, and instead of /commands have a simple UI menu to use (eq1 actually added one), then update the graphics a little and sound. Then re-release it, I'd play either of them for another 10 years. I'm not talking about modern graphics either. Just less blocky really.
I find this thread somewhat humorous. As was said if a new game were made today based on old content/approach etc we would be playing something inferior--old tech yes old concepts..hmmm. New games are built off of ....what? Either way be it the MMO or not discussion or the playability it is all about what you want to play. If you find that WOW fits your style and play methods then so be it. DAOC--same thing. Old School or New School its all about what you like--is that not the discussion we are having or is it about what era of gaming was better?
Originally posted by Gravarg imho, if you took a game like DAoC or EQ1 and just updated the graphics, and instead of /commands have a simple UI menu to use (eq1 actually added one), then update the graphics a little and sound. Then re-release it, I'd play either of them for another 10 years. I'm not talking about modern graphics either. Just less blocky really.
Agreed--and this goes for games that will be old in 10 years as well--its all about what you like
Originally posted by aliven Oh, look diary, another thread about how new mmos are bad. And how glorified old schoolers think they are right So funny...
Oh look diary, another poster about how new mmos are perfect, and how glorified chat rooms mmorpg players think they are right:) So funny.
Everquest 1 is still running with legacy servers and so on. So why people dont play it? :P
Originally posted by Gravarg imho, if you took a game like DAoC or EQ1 and just updated the graphics, and instead of /commands have a simple UI menu to use (eq1 actually added one), then update the graphics a little and sound. Then re-release it, I'd play either of them for another 10 years. I'm not talking about modern graphics either. Just less blocky really.
Agreed--and this goes for games that will be old in 10 years as well--its all about what you like
There's too much if.
I like people telling me world of darkness would be one of the best mmorpg if it is out. It's not even out, and never will be.
Hey you know if ultima online 2 is out it'll actually be good.
And if makers of DaoC or ultima online make new mmorpg. You know what, they actually tried making new mmorpg, that didn't end well.
And maybe just maybe the developer dont' care if you play 10 more years, because there just not enough people like you. If games isn't keep getting updated with good update people'll leave in a few month, or best yet a couple of years.
The biggest problem with those old mmorpg is the studio just didn't put out good enough update that keep people around. And they try to make their game more main stream(dump down) the game. That in the end, they can't even keep their niche players. Everyone know the main stream gamers would play Wow instead anyway. If they kept their game the same philosophy, maybe they could keep more players.
Hey camelot unchain will be out in less than 2 years. I'm really excited for it. If you really a DAOC fan, you should keep track on it.
Originally posted by delete5230 This is a stigma that seems be attached to the words " Old School ".....The only reason I could see is posters here pick up on the word OLD and run with it.
What's up with this ?
Why do people ever leave an existing 'old school' game that has everything they want?
You always bring up this strawman, and people always inform you that the older games we loved have drastically changed.
That's the very nature of an mmo and especially an mmorpg though; that they are ever evolving and changing. An mmo can't live and be static at the same time. It eventually stagnates and dies in that state.
I won't deny there are obviously people that would love static snapshots of online games, but there are some big hurdles to overcome with that thinking. For one, getting enough people in the same group that want the same snapshot. Players still expect content and updates that won't change or affect their game. It's a losing proposition for developers and publishers both financially and developmentally.
Expecting a developer to foresee when to freeze and encapsulate their game is completely unreasonable for the above mentioned reasons. Expecting a developer to pump millions of dollars into a fickle and potentially unloyal customer base in an already risky venture is beyond unreasonable. At the very very best you will end up like CCP with a moderately successful game where development is held hostage by the players and they can never move forward or break out of their chains. At worst there will be niche games where one update sends the players packing and the game into limbo. That is the scary dilemma that CU, Pathfinder, Pantheon, Crowfall, and these other indie niches face. It's a precarious road for them with a very fickle demanding crowd.
Well, that's why crowdfunding benefits the niche and indie developers. They don't develop unless the players fund. That funding is a message to developers, from the players: "Hey, we would like to play a game like this. It offers something that existing games don't, so we'll give you money to make it a reality." The fact that there are multiple titles being developed like this is proof enough, generally, that there's a niche crowd that isn't satisfied with current releases.
Originally posted by aliven Oh, look diary, another thread about how new mmos are bad. And how glorified old schoolers think they are right So funny...
Oh look diary, another poster about how new mmos are perfect, and how glorified chat rooms mmorpg players think they are right:) So funny.
But then, "old school" MMORPGs had less than 1 million players total, on the whole planet. Nowadays, the MMORPG market has over 50 million players, and I'm conservative.
Indeed... so funny.
Jean-L, You can't seem to get the word OLD out of your head.
Maybe I should reword it to original formula made in 2015 !
And most of those 1 million where kids and non gamers, wow easy casual and easy to learn it wasnt truly meant for rpg gamers as a whole, and lets keep in mind gaming just started getting more popular so this doesnt apply when older mmorpgs where at the time when gaming was still only for nerds.
MMOs today are NOT MMOS, plain and simple....they are something else. You could attach any word you like to what ever they are, but there not mmos.
You can poke fun at this topic all you like but EVERYONE has to be able to face that were in a decline of staying power in all games made as of the past few years.
Pantheon is my last hope. I'm keeping a loose eye on this one, very loose, because if it will have a cash shop, I'm taking my ball and bat and going home.
This is why - making silly claims that MMOs today are not MMOS....
Also decline of staying power, where is your data?
If this were true we would have a handful of games on the market, not 1000s.
Where's his data? Are you going to pay someone to put in the hours of number crunching and the time it would take to actually gather the "real" data and not the half truths and general lies that are reported? I would imagine not, I know I wouldn't. He may not have the cold, has facts (which would get ripped to pieces by fanbois here even if God Almighty personally provided them) but there is enough circumstantial evidence to lend support to his points.
Even your last sentence can be used to support the OP. The fact that there are 1000s of games means the market is being flooded with quantity and not quality. This has resulted in games being released that do not take as long to develop as they once did. While technology has advanced since the early days of EQ and UO to reduce coding time, problem is they aren't investing time to develop the game worlds, environments, and thereby creating deeper emersive games. The games are lifeless and shallow compared to the flawed old school games to many that once played them.
EQ and UO drew you into the world and created communities where as today, games are shallow and basically single player games with the occasional group and raid content. The fact that most newer games are solo centric directly supports the OPs point that MMOs are not what they used to be, and this is a direct result of quality being focused more on pumping out stable games than on the entire gaming experience.
gamers used to overlook the bugs because the game world was an overall experience that made you want to explore to see what is over the next hill while now, you run into invisible walls, pulled by the nose from spot to spot. This is another result of overall quality taking a back seat. The rails often result in fewer lines of code to debug, fewer unintentional impacts to changing line 1,789,236, and decreases the Period of Performance, or POP, of the project. This means revenue is realized sooner and that makes the stockholders happier.
Besides, if games were being published that were more along the lines of EQ and UO then there wouldn't be 1000s of games on the market because the players wouldn't grow tired of the more in depth games and jump to the flavor of the month that has been the "norm" for 10+ years now.
You must remember, numbers never lie, but they they can be twisted to support anyone's personal agenda. I took one statement and twisted it to support the OP, and I could make another post taking both your post and this one and completely refute the OP. It's all in the eye of the beholder and that is all that really counts anyway.
I personally agree with the OP. Give me an old school game with today's stability and tech and I would gladly pay a monthly sub, but we al know that won't happen anytime soon...
Wow amazing you worded it perfectly and put everything about the quality of older mmorpgs into perspective.
Originally posted by delete5230 This is a stigma that seems be attached to the words " Old School ".....The only reason I could see is posters here pick up on the word OLD and run with it.
What's up with this ?
Why do people ever leave an existing 'old school' game that has everything they want?
You always bring up this strawman, and people always inform you that the older games we loved have drastically changed.
That's the very nature of an mmo and especially an mmorpg though; that they are ever evolving and changing. An mmo can't live and be static at the same time. It eventually stagnates and dies in that state.
I won't deny there are obviously people that would love static snapshots of online games, but there are some big hurdles to overcome with that thinking. For one, getting enough people in the same group that want the same snapshot. Players still expect content and updates that won't change or affect their game. It's a losing proposition for developers and publishers both financially and developmentally.
Expecting a developer to foresee when to freeze and encapsulate their game is completely unreasonable for the above mentioned reasons. Expecting a developer to pump millions of dollars into a fickle and potentially unloyal customer base in an already risky venture is beyond unreasonable. At the very very best you will end up like CCP with a moderately successful game where development is held hostage by the players and they can never move forward or break out of their chains. At worst there will be niche games where one update sends the players packing and the game into limbo. That is the scary dilemma that CU, Pathfinder, Pantheon, Crowfall, and these other indie niches face. It's a precarious road for them with a very fickle demanding crowd.
It's a reality of competition.
Players like to call it "the game changed in a direction they don't like". When the reality is people are leaving because of Wow. I'm not even the one saying it. The developers of SOE said themself people are quiting in droves because of Wow.
So SOE make the jump with the change. Which caused their own destruction. If they keep the game philosophy the same, they could at least keep the rest of the players.
Where's his data? Are you going to pay someone to put in the hours of number crunching and the time it would take to actually gather the "real" data and not the half truths and general lies that are reported? I would imagine not, I know I wouldn't. He may not have the cold, has facts (which would get ripped to pieces by fanbois here even if God Almighty personally provided them) but there is enough circumstantial evidence to lend support to his points.
Even your last sentence can be used to support the OP. The fact that there are 1000s of games means the market is being flooded with quantity and not quality. This has resulted in games being released that do not take as long to develop as they once did. While technology has advanced since the early days of EQ and UO to reduce coding time, problem is they aren't investing time to develop the game worlds, environments, and thereby creating deeper emersive games. The games are lifeless and shallow compared to the flawed old school games to many that once played them.
EQ and UO drew you into the world and created communities where as today, games are shallow and basically single player games with the occasional group and raid content. The fact that most newer games are solo centric directly supports the OPs point that MMOs are not what they used to be, and this is a direct result of quality being focused more on pumping out stable games than on the entire gaming experience.
gamers used to overlook the bugs because the game world was an overall experience that made you want to explore to see what is over the next hill while now, you run into invisible walls, pulled by the nose from spot to spot. This is another result of overall quality taking a back seat. The rails often result in fewer lines of code to debug, fewer unintentional impacts to changing line 1,789,236, and decreases the Period of Performance, or POP, of the project. This means revenue is realized sooner and that makes the stockholders happier.
Besides, if games were being published that were more along the lines of EQ and UO then there wouldn't be 1000s of games on the market because the players wouldn't grow tired of the more in depth games and jump to the flavor of the month that has been the "norm" for 10+ years now.
You must remember, numbers never lie, but they they can be twisted to support anyone's personal agenda. I took one statement and twisted it to support the OP, and I could make another post taking both your post and this one and completely refute the OP. It's all in the eye of the beholder and that is all that really counts anyway.
I personally agree with the OP. Give me an old school game with today's stability and tech and I would gladly pay a monthly sub, but we al know that won't happen anytime soon...
That's the thing though. The communities made the games, not the game mechanics. The game mechanics left behind were very tedious, it was a godsend that there where people there otherwise you probably wouldn't play the game due to boredom.
That's why when I hear older games where better it wasn't actually because of the games/mechanics. It was of the communities.
Personally, if a developer wants to create amazing worlds it has to be a good experience solo just as much as grouping.
Reading most every post, I would say off the cuff that 80% don't get it.
Wait, let's try to think like, you know, mature adults.
So 80% "dont get it". Which means, 80% don't agree with your post. Couldn't it be that actually YOU and the 20% are wrong, and the 80% are actually right?
That's how democracy works.
OK good idea, Lets be mature OK ?
Your saying if a new mmo were made with Old school qualities it would have kill 10 rat quest, low 2001 graphics, and raids that would last 9 hours, and the coding would be a mess.
Is that what your saying ?
Like one or not, do you think it would have stick figures ?
First back up, what is it that you think people don't get? Reading all your posts/threads suggests you feel people aren't giving you the authority on this topic you think you deserve. IE the authority on what's good or bad, the authority on what an MMORPG must be, etc... This is a running theme with your threads.
I'm sure you could see that
1) People are forever searching for a new mmo, even with over 200 mmos on the list here.
2) A lot of the people are pissed about cash shops.
3) A lot of people are looking for an mmo that will last more than 30 days, they would like to find a home for a long time.
4) Archage, proved that people are looking for an Old school style, but greed got the better of developers.
5) Lots of post on General Discussions Have been made on here, asking for the same thing.
6) Pantheon, is becoming the "looking forward mmo ", because of the promise of old school qualities, and that mmo is years away !
1) People? What people can you show us these people?
2) A lot of people? Can you show us these lots of people? Any data on this other than MMORPGS with cash shops are profitable?
3) A lot of people are looking for mmo that last more than 30 days? Can you provide the emails these people have sent you to back up this?
4) Archage proved that sandboxers cant even be happy with a sandbox, it didnt prove anything else. But I would love to see the data that proved it to you.
5) Lots of post on a small website that 99.9% of MMORPG players dont come to or know about? What does that have to do with anything?
6) Pantheon is becoming the "looking forward mmo" TO YOU, and maybe others because there is nothing else coming down the pipe right now. I would bet that more people are "looking forward to ESO on the Console" than looking forward to Pantheon.
Again stop acting like you know what other people want, think, or feel because you clearly have no clue what others want, think or fee.
Where's his data? Are you going to pay someone to put in the hours of number crunching and the time it would take to actually gather the "real" data and not the half truths and general lies that are reported? I would imagine not, I know I wouldn't. He may not have the cold, has facts (which would get ripped to pieces by fanbois here even if God Almighty personally provided them) but there is enough circumstantial evidence to lend support to his points.
Even your last sentence can be used to support the OP. The fact that there are 1000s of games means the market is being flooded with quantity and not quality. This has resulted in games being released that do not take as long to develop as they once did. While technology has advanced since the early days of EQ and UO to reduce coding time, problem is they aren't investing time to develop the game worlds, environments, and thereby creating deeper emersive games. The games are lifeless and shallow compared to the flawed old school games to many that once played them.
EQ and UO drew you into the world and created communities where as today, games are shallow and basically single player games with the occasional group and raid content. The fact that most newer games are solo centric directly supports the OPs point that MMOs are not what they used to be, and this is a direct result of quality being focused more on pumping out stable games than on the entire gaming experience.
gamers used to overlook the bugs because the game world was an overall experience that made you want to explore to see what is over the next hill while now, you run into invisible walls, pulled by the nose from spot to spot. This is another result of overall quality taking a back seat. The rails often result in fewer lines of code to debug, fewer unintentional impacts to changing line 1,789,236, and decreases the Period of Performance, or POP, of the project. This means revenue is realized sooner and that makes the stockholders happier.
Besides, if games were being published that were more along the lines of EQ and UO then there wouldn't be 1000s of games on the market because the players wouldn't grow tired of the more in depth games and jump to the flavor of the month that has been the "norm" for 10+ years now.
You must remember, numbers never lie, but they they can be twisted to support anyone's personal agenda. I took one statement and twisted it to support the OP, and I could make another post taking both your post and this one and completely refute the OP. It's all in the eye of the beholder and that is all that really counts anyway.
I personally agree with the OP. Give me an old school game with today's stability and tech and I would gladly pay a monthly sub, but we al know that won't happen anytime soon...
That's the thing though. The communities made the games, not the game mechanics. The game mechanics left behind were very tedious, it was a godsend that there where people there otherwise you probably wouldn't play the game due to boredom.
That's why when I hear older games where better it wasn't actually because of the games/mechanics. It was of the communities.
Personally, if a developer wants to create amazing worlds it has to be a good experience solo just as much as grouping.
This is not entirely true, yes the communities where a part of it but that is also because of the class design and how people relied on other classes for travel and other things. And then the amazing class system in eq1 where your class was truly unique and mattered. And then the fact the world actually felt dangerous these mechanics did make the game amazing just as much as the community. Oh and first person view.
Originally posted by aliven Oh, look diary, another thread about how new mmos are bad. And how glorified old schoolers think they are right So funny...
Oh look diary, another poster about how new mmos are perfect, and how glorified chat rooms mmorpg players think they are right:) So funny.
But then, "old school" MMORPGs had less than 1 million players total, on the whole planet. Nowadays, the MMORPG market has over 50 million players, and I'm conservative.
Indeed... so funny.
Jean-L, You can't seem to get the word OLD out of your head.
Maybe I should reword it to original formula made in 2015 !
Let me remind you the title of your own thread.
OLD school.
You wrote it, not me.
And considering your profile says you are a native English speaker, maybe more school and less Internet would help you look less ridiculous when you post.
Not everyone that talks about "old school" MMO's is looking back through rose tinted glasses, something we are regularly accused of on this forum. How do I know this? Because out of the sheer glut of modern MMO's available to play which ones and I currently logging into? The answer to that is none.
So which MMO am I currently playing? EQ classic server plus the Kunark expansion, with the same game mechanics that were in the game at that time, for better or worse no matter how broken. No quality of life improvements from later expansions just plain ol' EQ with it's hell levels, loss of xp on death, losing levels on death sometimes, corpse runs, no mounts, no PoK books for porting around, sitting on a boat for 20 minutes if you can't get a druid/wiz port, no auction house, xp penalties for races and classes and all. You either live with it or you don't log in.
Why would I subject myself to this torture? Well apart from still being a fun game, one word. Community. People playing on this server actually give a shit, they help out, they don't act like dicks and they try and maintain a good reputation. Yes, it's very niche and not for everyone, or even most, but if you want to play a MMO with a real community then this is where you go.
There is nothing wrong with Old School, you just need to not be a whiney little wimp that can't hack it. Short attention span, no patience, gimme gimme gimme crybabies need not apply.
Reading most every post, I would say off the cuff that 80% don't get it.
Wait, let's try to think like, you know, mature adults.
So 80% "dont get it". Which means, 80% don't agree with your post. Couldn't it be that actually YOU and the 20% are wrong, and the 80% are actually right?
That's how democracy works.
OK good idea, Lets be mature OK ?
Your saying if a new mmo were made with Old school qualities it would have kill 10 rat quest, low 2001 graphics, and raids that would last 9 hours, and the coding would be a mess.
Is that what your saying ?
Like one or not, do you think it would have stick figures ?
First back up, what is it that you think people don't get? Reading all your posts/threads suggests you feel people aren't giving you the authority on this topic you think you deserve. IE the authority on what's good or bad, the authority on what an MMORPG must be, etc... This is a running theme with your threads.
I'm sure you could see that
1) People are forever searching for a new mmo, even with over 200 mmos on the list here.
2) A lot of the people are pissed about cash shops.
3) A lot of people are looking for an mmo that will last more than 30 days, they would like to find a home for a long time.
4) Archage, proved that people are looking for an Old school style, but greed got the better of developers.
5) Lots of post on General Discussions Have been made on here, asking for the same thing.
6) Pantheon, is becoming the "looking forward mmo ", because of the promise of old school qualities, and that mmo is years away !
1) People? What people can you show us these people?
2) A lot of people? Can you show us these lots of people? Any data on this other than MMORPGS with cash shops are profitable?
3) A lot of people are looking for mmo that last more than 30 days? Can you provide the emails these people have sent you to back up this?
4) Archage proved that sandboxers cant even be happy with a sandbox, it didnt prove anything else. But I would love to see the data that proved it to you.
5) Lots of post on a small website that 99.9% of MMORPG players dont come to or know about? What does that have to do with anything?
6) Pantheon is becoming the "looking forward mmo" TO YOU, and maybe others because there is nothing else coming down the pipe right now. I would bet that more people are "looking forward to ESO on the Console" than looking forward to Pantheon.
Again stop acting like you know what other people want, think, or feel because you clearly have no clue what others want, think or fee.
people..
This one talks about a blizzard dev thinks wow ruined mmorpgs
Comments
Oh look diary, another poster about how new mmos are perfect, and how glorified chat rooms mmorpg players think they are right:) So funny.
OK good idea, Lets be mature OK ?
Your saying if a new mmo were made with Old school qualities it would have kill 10 rat quest, low 2001 graphics, and raids that would last 9 hours, and the coding would be a mess.
Is that what your saying ?
Like one or not, do you think it would have stick figures ?
Well... other than the fact that saying that the old was better than the new is a critical cliche that has been used like forever, no there is noting wrong with saying old MMOs were great and the new are shit.
I bet the same thing was said about making your own fire.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
First back up, what is it that you think people don't get? Reading all your posts/threads suggests you feel people aren't giving you the authority on this topic you think you deserve. IE the authority on what's good or bad, the authority on what an MMORPG must be, etc... This is a running theme with your threads.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Jean-L, You can't seem to get the word OLD out of your head.
Maybe I should reword it to original formula made in 2015 !
Dead on!!!
I'm sure you could see that
1) People are forever searching for a new mmo, even with over 200 mmos on the list here.
2) A lot of the people are pissed about cash shops.
3) A lot of people are looking for an mmo that will last more than 30 days, they would like to find a home for a long time.
4) Archage, proved that people are looking for an Old school style, but greed got the better of developers.
5) Lots of post on General Discussions Have been made on here, asking for the same thing.
6) Pantheon, is becoming the "looking forward mmo ", because of the promise of old school qualities, and that mmo is years away !
Where's his data? Are you going to pay someone to put in the hours of number crunching and the time it would take to actually gather the "real" data and not the half truths and general lies that are reported? I would imagine not, I know I wouldn't. He may not have the cold, has facts (which would get ripped to pieces by fanbois here even if God Almighty personally provided them) but there is enough circumstantial evidence to lend support to his points.
Even your last sentence can be used to support the OP. The fact that there are 1000s of games means the market is being flooded with quantity and not quality. This has resulted in games being released that do not take as long to develop as they once did. While technology has advanced since the early days of EQ and UO to reduce coding time, problem is they aren't investing time to develop the game worlds, environments, and thereby creating deeper emersive games. The games are lifeless and shallow compared to the flawed old school games to many that once played them.
EQ and UO drew you into the world and created communities where as today, games are shallow and basically single player games with the occasional group and raid content. The fact that most newer games are solo centric directly supports the OPs point that MMOs are not what they used to be, and this is a direct result of quality being focused more on pumping out stable games than on the entire gaming experience.
gamers used to overlook the bugs because the game world was an overall experience that made you want to explore to see what is over the next hill while now, you run into invisible walls, pulled by the nose from spot to spot. This is another result of overall quality taking a back seat. The rails often result in fewer lines of code to debug, fewer unintentional impacts to changing line 1,789,236, and decreases the Period of Performance, or POP, of the project. This means revenue is realized sooner and that makes the stockholders happier.
Besides, if games were being published that were more along the lines of EQ and UO then there wouldn't be 1000s of games on the market because the players wouldn't grow tired of the more in depth games and jump to the flavor of the month that has been the "norm" for 10+ years now.
You must remember, numbers never lie, but they they can be twisted to support anyone's personal agenda. I took one statement and twisted it to support the OP, and I could make another post taking both your post and this one and completely refute the OP. It's all in the eye of the beholder and that is all that really counts anyway.
I personally agree with the OP. Give me an old school game with today's stability and tech and I would gladly pay a monthly sub, but we al know that won't happen anytime soon...
1) the problem here is that some people are always searching for something. Some are essentially never happy with what's there now... that's just a part of human nature.
2) yes some people are, yet some support it frivolously..
3) A lot of people find whats there now suitable for that.
4) yes some people are..
5) Yes and many if not most of those threads are made by the same handful of people, how many have you created thus far as an example?
6) uh, have you paid attention to that prior to pantheon? The game on paper is always the next "big" thing...
Therein lies the point a select few never seem to get, your view isn't the only one out there, how you see things in the genre isn't how everyone does (even among other "vets").
Hence the question I posed of authority on the topic in general. For every argument you bring forward there is a legitimate counter argument. That's the way subjective topics work. No matter how many times you create the same topic, that will be the result. You want to claim it's like this because people "don't get it", it could just as easily be said it is the other way around... you don't get that this is a subjective discussion.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Games like GW2, FF14, ESO, TSW, Archeage, LOTR are all AAA games that have released in the last couple of years that are high quality and offer far more than the mmorpgs that were released 10-15 years ago. There are also more people playing MMORPG now than there ever was. To suggest that games 10-15 years ago are better than any games now is ofc a nonsense.
The real issue is that with a niche genre you should only expect 1 or 2 titles a year max that hit the top of the market, because the niche can only support so many games. This was allways the case with the RPG genre, the RTS Genre, the Turn based Genre etc etrc
At the moment the genre is flooded with players (mainly in WOW) that confuse what they are playing with a mmo Role Playing Game, and so not suprisingly they are dissapointed with new mmorpg as they come out - they don't get it. They also don't understand that a mmorpg wont have millions of players, its a niche.
As for 'MMO', 'Massively' means nothing, and obviously Multiplayer online games are going to continue alongside single player games as us players want both.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Agreed--and this goes for games that will be old in 10 years as well--its all about what you like
Everquest 1 is still running with legacy servers and so on. So why people dont play it? :P
There's too much if.
I like people telling me world of darkness would be one of the best mmorpg if it is out. It's not even out, and never will be.
Hey you know if ultima online 2 is out it'll actually be good.
And if makers of DaoC or ultima online make new mmorpg. You know what, they actually tried making new mmorpg, that didn't end well.
And maybe just maybe the developer dont' care if you play 10 more years, because there just not enough people like you. If games isn't keep getting updated with good update people'll leave in a few month, or best yet a couple of years.
The biggest problem with those old mmorpg is the studio just didn't put out good enough update that keep people around. And they try to make their game more main stream(dump down) the game. That in the end, they can't even keep their niche players. Everyone know the main stream gamers would play Wow instead anyway. If they kept their game the same philosophy, maybe they could keep more players.
Hey camelot unchain will be out in less than 2 years. I'm really excited for it. If you really a DAOC fan, you should keep track on it.
Well, that's why crowdfunding benefits the niche and indie developers. They don't develop unless the players fund. That funding is a message to developers, from the players: "Hey, we would like to play a game like this. It offers something that existing games don't, so we'll give you money to make it a reality." The fact that there are multiple titles being developed like this is proof enough, generally, that there's a niche crowd that isn't satisfied with current releases.
And most of those 1 million where kids and non gamers, wow easy casual and easy to learn it wasnt truly meant for rpg gamers as a whole, and lets keep in mind gaming just started getting more popular so this doesnt apply when older mmorpgs where at the time when gaming was still only for nerds.
Wow amazing you worded it perfectly and put everything about the quality of older mmorpgs into perspective.
It's a reality of competition.
Players like to call it "the game changed in a direction they don't like". When the reality is people are leaving because of Wow. I'm not even the one saying it. The developers of SOE said themself people are quiting in droves because of Wow.
So SOE make the jump with the change. Which caused their own destruction. If they keep the game philosophy the same, they could at least keep the rest of the players.
That's the thing though. The communities made the games, not the game mechanics. The game mechanics left behind were very tedious, it was a godsend that there where people there otherwise you probably wouldn't play the game due to boredom.
That's why when I hear older games where better it wasn't actually because of the games/mechanics. It was of the communities.
Personally, if a developer wants to create amazing worlds it has to be a good experience solo just as much as grouping.
1) People? What people can you show us these people?
2) A lot of people? Can you show us these lots of people? Any data on this other than MMORPGS with cash shops are profitable?
3) A lot of people are looking for mmo that last more than 30 days? Can you provide the emails these people have sent you to back up this?
4) Archage proved that sandboxers cant even be happy with a sandbox, it didnt prove anything else. But I would love to see the data that proved it to you.
5) Lots of post on a small website that 99.9% of MMORPG players dont come to or know about? What does that have to do with anything?
6) Pantheon is becoming the "looking forward mmo" TO YOU, and maybe others because there is nothing else coming down the pipe right now. I would bet that more people are "looking forward to ESO on the Console" than looking forward to Pantheon.
Again stop acting like you know what other people want, think, or feel because you clearly have no clue what others want, think or fee.
This is not entirely true, yes the communities where a part of it but that is also because of the class design and how people relied on other classes for travel and other things. And then the amazing class system in eq1 where your class was truly unique and mattered. And then the fact the world actually felt dangerous these mechanics did make the game amazing just as much as the community. Oh and first person view.
+1
Not everyone that talks about "old school" MMO's is looking back through rose tinted glasses, something we are regularly accused of on this forum. How do I know this? Because out of the sheer glut of modern MMO's available to play which ones and I currently logging into? The answer to that is none.
So which MMO am I currently playing? EQ classic server plus the Kunark expansion, with the same game mechanics that were in the game at that time, for better or worse no matter how broken. No quality of life improvements from later expansions just plain ol' EQ with it's hell levels, loss of xp on death, losing levels on death sometimes, corpse runs, no mounts, no PoK books for porting around, sitting on a boat for 20 minutes if you can't get a druid/wiz port, no auction house, xp penalties for races and classes and all. You either live with it or you don't log in.
Why would I subject myself to this torture? Well apart from still being a fun game, one word. Community. People playing on this server actually give a shit, they help out, they don't act like dicks and they try and maintain a good reputation. Yes, it's very niche and not for everyone, or even most, but if you want to play a MMO with a real community then this is where you go.
There is nothing wrong with Old School, you just need to not be a whiney little wimp that can't hack it. Short attention span, no patience, gimme gimme gimme crybabies need not apply.
people..
This one talks about a blizzard dev thinks wow ruined mmorpgs
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/125533-Former-Dev-WoW-Has-Killed-the-MMO-Genre
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/958/view/forums/thread/426755/page/2
http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/17flqi/to_those_who_have_lost_interest_in_mmorpgs_like/
http://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/1phn4x/are_gamers_to_blame_for_the_death_of_the_mmo/
http://www.thatsaterribleidea.com/2011/06/why-i-have-moved-on-from-mmos.html
http://www.gamebreaker.tv/news-main/mmorpg/tera-fic-or-tera-ble/
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/958/view/forums/thread/426755/page/2
http://www.containsmoderateperil.com/wows-success-ruined-mmo-gaming/
And theres many more links if you would me to provide them id be happy to.
Towards people getting bored with mmorpgs all the time.
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/73516-why-people-get-bored-of-new-mmorpgs/page__st__30
this one has some good points here https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/33gg0w/i_miss_when_i_was_12_and_i_could_play_mmorpgs_for/
https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/1fq3h6/cant_commit_to_any_current_mmos_can_you/
People need to wake up to the truth of mmorpgs we arent in the minority like people in this thread would like you to believe.