Your memory must be pretty shoddy then. I don't remember any game other than EQ to have had forced grouping. I remember a ton of games that gave you multiple ways to level, and incentivized them so that grouping was organic and rewarded (which makes sense, because it's way harder than soloing).
And if you think the grind is gone, what do you think "quests" are? Grind with more production value, forced singleplayer, and more insulting to the player's intelligence.
If you want to claim old games "forced" you to group, then I'll argue that modern games "force" you to solo.
Think it must be your memory that is shoddy. EQ1, DAoC, EQ2, and WoW classic all had forced grouping unless you played that 1 solo class and pretty much had 95% of the game content locked out to you. Those were the big classic mmorpgs that built the genre and all focused heavily on grouping and a server community. That is what made those games great because people actually made regular friends, a good player could be known and desired. a jerk player would be known and shunned even to the point of rerolling on a new server. And as it took time to level, often serious time, you made a set of friends to work with and grow with like a gamer family for many of us.
Today's games lack all of what most of us old school mmorpg gamers loved. We didn't mind the grind because we were with friends exploring and adventuring doing stupid sh*t but having fun which is what it was all about. When one of us got a sweet drop the entire group of friends were happy for them and felt they also because that drop would help the group as they were a regular crew.
Those who say you can do that in today's games are full of it. Sure, theoretically you could get a group of friends to do slowmode grouping but their isn't generally content for that except for dungeons and usually its like 1 new dungeon for every 5-6 levels that is instanced and very short. However the real challenge is finding 5-6 people who want to wait on eachother in a game that levels extremely quick were everyone else's focus is on making max level to raid and insta gear.
I for one however would love to see an old style mmorpg with modern graphics. I don't mind the grind but I want the social and community aspect brought back. I want levels to be slow and not focused on getting max level as quick as possible. No dungeon finder especially cross server dungeon finder.... maybe if you make a premade allow a form of queue porting to dungeon at most. Make drops rare and promote crafting again. Bring back dungeon competition but let the social / community aspect of the game keep things in check. Bring back difficulty to playing and dungeons. Soloing should be hard and not something in tune to most class's unless you want to sit around killing stuff 5 levels below you all day long without much of any reward. Bring back a mix of class's that have many different roles besides the now core 3 roles (dps, tank, healer).... bring back cc and support as well which works great in a 6 man group. I'd love to see a revamp of DAoC, EQ, or EQ2 as they were at release with modern graphics.
Nonsense? Quest grinding makes up for the vast majority of themepark gameplay.
Only if you choose to play that way (i.e. Maximize my Efficiency with XP/Hour). Gotta level at max speed, gogogogo.
If you can enjoy sub-optimal leveling speed (and mmo gamers seem to forget that still exists, in every game out there), you can grind wolves. You can group up for dungeon runs. You can do all of your traveling with a partner. You can explore.
The only thing "forcing" anyone to Quest is being in a Hurry To Reach Cap. And habit, once they've reached one.
Now, I'll grant you that certain titles (ahem) don't have much else in the way of story or characters or plot lines or history or Lore. That's an effect of corporations cutting CE budgets to the bone. Maximize profit by minimizing payroll--just like Walmart.
To be fair some games punish you of you do not speed through the game, time not spent at max level is an opportunity cost - you drop behind the average power level, and in some particularly bad games that means you cannot join in on content with your peers, e.g if you guild is aiming for a level of raid, then it's keep up or be benched. It's this type of power dependant game that forces ths minmax behaviour - even when the player does not want to rush. Terrible game design.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by Bladestrom To be fair some games punish you of you do not speed through the game, time not spent at max level is an opportunity cost
What cost is there to spending time with friends?
You simply value diffrent things, I MUST get to max level at BEST speed so that I can get COOL gear and the TROPHIES.
(Compete with millions of copies of Mr. Jones. Competitive RPG play, first, best, coolest trophies)
Or, I MUST have a GOOD time with my buds doing...whatever we decide to do tonight.
(Cooperative RPG play, the friends and the fun are #1 priority. If someone else gets there first, good for him.)
If anything, all there is to resent in this is the negative value social engineering of MMO Reward strategies. But those have been a staple part of MMOs since...ever.
Try reading what I said properly, i didnt say there was a cost to grouping with friends. if your with a group of friends who raid, you either keep up or you can't join in (, can be one-shotted to to low hp etc) that's terrible design for a mmo, the content should not separate a community to such a potential degree.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
... the pain of waiting for others at a dungeon entrance ...
I dreaded non-guild grouping circa WotLK.
45 minutes to an hour trying to get 5 people for a dungeon. The people who are grouped aren't even trying to help get us in there, off doing their own questing like it's someone else's job to get a group together and get them into the dungeon.
We finally get 5, get into the dungeon, and wipe on the first pull because these people are trying to run dungeons much higher than their capabilities and gear. The group falls apart with some in a pissy because THEIR needs aren't being met.
Pfft... too much headache. No way in hell I'd call it a fun experience.
Yeh .. it was horrible. That is why LFD is so popular. If the group is falling apart, at least you can hit "quit" and get another one fast.
"oh no i might actually have to say something" such a horrible concept lol
i did tons of dungeons back then and hardly ever had any problems.
it also involved alot more than just kill loot repeat. we'd form groups and start moving toward the summoning stone.. and once there if we where lucky we'd also get a little PvP action going before the dungeon.
It is a waste of time if you want to play a game instead of going into a chatroom.
Oh, not having problem does not mean that it is fun. I could get a group before LFD too .. but why bother if you can do it by clicking a button. It is kill loot repeat ...if I want pvp, i will queue up a pvp BG instead. And "moving towards" the summoning stone is a waste of time for me.
seems like you'd be more comfortable in single player games since interaction with other players apparently is a waste of time.
Back then MMOs were going for big open worlds, they were going for playing in groups, a heavy emphasis on exploration, crafting, socialising and just living in a world. That is what the whole genre was created for, I keep saying it but it's THE WORLD!
They are still out there. Lots of them. I think you are letting yourself be confused by nostalgia and not seeing what's in front of your face.
The problem with modern "MMOs" and I use that term loosely because most are now just online RPGs; they don't do a world and all the content isn't there for fun, it's there to grind through ASAP. If you look at the modern MMO, the world just gets in the way of you wanting to level up fast, then you all moan when there is nothing left to do and leave; this is why none of them last very long any more.
Uh, no. Please don't paint too broadly with that brush. What you are identifying is a problem with individuals who are content locusts. MMO's are quite abundant, and your jaded group classification to make them RPG's is inaccurate.
I hear what you are saying. I just think you've fallen into a slump and are letting that color your vision for the negative.
I don't think so. I agree with the OP. Modern MMOs have no soul, feel empty, and are nothing more than single player RPGs that just happen to have others playing on the same server. Grouping is completely optional for all but the most difficult content.
Jaded, maybe, but when the genre we loved is full of real life Veruca Salt players that were introduced to it by none other than the original easy mode, make garbage players feel they are l33t Raiders, clone of UO & EQ known as the most successful MMO ever or WoW, then yeah, jaded might be appropriate.
I want a game just like the OP describes. Give me a game that has modern engines and some newer mechanics but feels like a real world where people actually chat with each other and explore together then I'll gladly play. I want it to leave out the mechanics that WoW brought to the table and thereby filled a great genre with crybaby Verucas. Those would include, telegraphs, group/raid finders, instant travel, and cash shops.
... the pain of waiting for others at a dungeon entrance ...
I dreaded non-guild grouping circa WotLK.
45 minutes to an hour trying to get 5 people for a dungeon. The people who are grouped aren't even trying to help get us in there, off doing their own questing like it's someone else's job to get a group together and get them into the dungeon.
We finally get 5, get into the dungeon, and wipe on the first pull because these people are trying to run dungeons much higher than their capabilities and gear. The group falls apart with some in a pissy because THEIR needs aren't being met.
Pfft... too much headache. No way in hell I'd call it a fun experience.
Yeh .. it was horrible. That is why LFD is so popular. If the group is falling apart, at least you can hit "quit" and get another one fast.
"oh no i might actually have to say something" such a horrible concept lol
i did tons of dungeons back then and hardly ever had any problems.
it also involved alot more than just kill loot repeat. we'd form groups and start moving toward the summoning stone.. and once there if we where lucky we'd also get a little PvP action going before the dungeon.
It is a waste of time if you want to play a game instead of going into a chatroom.
Oh, not having problem does not mean that it is fun. I could get a group before LFD too .. but why bother if you can do it by clicking a button. It is kill loot repeat ...if I want pvp, i will queue up a pvp BG instead. And "moving towards" the summoning stone is a waste of time for me.
seems like you'd be more comfortable in single player games since interaction with other players apparently is a waste of time.
why even bother with mmo's?
Because of unique gameplay and IP. There is no modern action RPG with marvel characters, for example. Marvel Heroes is it. So i play it despite it is a MMO.
If MMOs are still about player interactions, do you think I will be here?
I don't think so. I agree with the OP. Modern MMOs have no soul, feel empty, and are nothing more than single player RPGs that just happen to have others playing on the same server. Grouping is completely optional for all but the most difficult content.
Newer isn't always better.
That is what i like about them.
Newer isn't always better. In the case of MMO, it is. But "better" is subjective. So it is better for me.
These Johnny Come Latelys don't care about what MMORPGs have become. They are only here to be "entertained". In fact, they pepper almost every post with the word. They expect YOU to move on, not them, even though MMORPGs were never for content locusts looking for free "entertainment". They just want to be apart of something they shouldn't be apart of.
The older gamers who are passionate about their HOBBY, are being pushed out of the genre by people that don't even care about it. That's one of the saddest parts of watching our old friend, the MMORPG, die.
And let's face it, EQ had 450K players back when it was the bees knees. Not all 450K of those players post here. Be cautious of those who claim to be like you ( a veteran of old school), but call for more "evolution in gaming" (free lobby-based online games).
Now watch the usual suspects come in after their google searching to make claims that, they too, are veterans with their vague examples of proof. MMORPGs was never a hobby for them, and we just need to move along because they're here now.
I want an Audi. I can buy one right now. But, because of where I live and the work I do, I drive a 4x4 truck. Do I whine to Audi to make their awesome cars with 18 inch ground clearance and all-the-time four wheel drive? No. Do I tell them that my feels are hurt because I'm left out and they are being unfair? hahaha, no.
And what exactly is "forced grouping"? Nobody is forcing you to play. Some of the "logic" of these snowflakes don't make any sense.
Just like:
Farming
Camping
Running through danger to get somewhere
Meeting people and playing together for years
It never occurs to them that some of us liked that stuff (I know "like" is suggestive, right?)?
Today's games lack all of what SOME of us old school mmorpg gamers loved.
Fixed.
Originally posted by Syanis
Those who say you can do that in today's games are full of it.
And we still do that regularly with my guild, levelling, doing dungeons, raids, dropping new bosses, being happy when a guildie gets a drop, and generally having fun together.
So permit me to say that it's possibly you and the nostalgia club who are... "full of it" (your words).
Have to agree the things you mentioned can still be done in most of today's MMORPG's.
But...
Those aren't the thing I would be looking for in a MMORPG as in a old school experiance. The thing for me is and I have noticed especially on this forum that I truly have a different kind of playstyle when it comes to MMORPG's. I want a community game, guild are just but part of a community but doesn't make up for the whole. A community game one can go sole and still be social. Speaking from a love of full crafting professions.
The vision I thought this genre would be headed was due to SWG where I thought since we had plenty of multiplayer games that provide that experiance you noted that it had to deliver a more virtual world within a well known universe, where so many different play style's have been brought together. Things felt organic and not forced at all.
And to me it's that organic way of connecting with the world and it's community that has shifted into pure game and little world or community connection.
Today's games lack all of what SOME of us old school mmorpg gamers loved.
Fixed.
Originally posted by Syanis
Those who say you can do that in today's games are full of it.
And we still do that regularly with my guild, levelling, doing dungeons, raids, dropping new bosses, being happy when a guildie gets a drop, and generally having fun together.
So permit me to say that it's possibly you and the nostalgia club who are... "full of it" (your words).
Have to agree the things you mentioned can still be done in most of today's MMORPG's.
But...
Those aren't the thing I would be looking for in a MMORPG as in a old school experiance. The thing for me is and I have noticed especially on this forum that I truly have a different kind of playstyle when it comes to MMORPG's. I want a community game, guild are just but part of a community but doesn't make up for the whole. A community game one can go sole and still be social. Speaking from a love of full crafting professions.
The vision I thought this genre would be headed was due to SWG where I thought since we had plenty of multiplayer games that provide that experiance you noted that it had to deliver a more virtual world within a well known universe, where so many different play style's have been brought together. Things felt organic and not forced at all.
And to me it's that organic way of connecting with the world and it's community that has shifted into pure game and little world or community connection.
If you're trying to say that you wish crafting was more important in games, then I totally agree, I actually think killing mobs, be it in the wilds, in dungeons or in raids, should be one of the beginnings of the crafting process, and not the end of it, and that everything equipped in the game should be crafted by another player (or yourself). In UO, top crafters were famous, and there was no need for forced grouping to encourage socialization in that specific game. UO had other problems though which were fixed over the years (grind, macroing, some boring and tedious mechanics).
Seems like we share a similar vision of MMORPGs, which is NOT the old school forced "grouping to grind" EQ1 model. I think you're the first one who points on the true problem of more modern MMORPGs, which is that crafting basically means little to nothing because everything drops already manufactured from mobs and bosses.
But sadly, those "old schoolers" mostly seem to think that "please devs, force people to go bash mobs with 20 others like me again" will encourage "socialization"... which is, and always has been total nonsense. All it encourages is asshats abusing others in order to achieve their own goals because there's no other choice.
Do you Google these examples and references to gain credibility? Because real veterans of those games miss all that you're complaining about.
... the pain of waiting for others at a dungeon entrance ...
I dreaded non-guild grouping circa WotLK.
45 minutes to an hour trying to get 5 people for a dungeon. The people who are grouped aren't even trying to help get us in there, off doing their own questing like it's someone else's job to get a group together and get them into the dungeon.
We finally get 5, get into the dungeon, and wipe on the first pull because these people are trying to run dungeons much higher than their capabilities and gear. The group falls apart with some in a pissy because THEIR needs aren't being met.
Pfft... too much headache. No way in hell I'd call it a fun experience.
Yeh .. it was horrible. That is why LFD is so popular. If the group is falling apart, at least you can hit "quit" and get another one fast.
"oh no i might actually have to say something" such a horrible concept lol
i did tons of dungeons back then and hardly ever had any problems.
it also involved alot more than just kill loot repeat. we'd form groups and start moving toward the summoning stone.. and once there if we where lucky we'd also get a little PvP action going before the dungeon.
It is a waste of time if you want to play a game instead of going into a chatroom.
Oh, not having problem does not mean that it is fun. I could get a group before LFD too .. but why bother if you can do it by clicking a button. It is kill loot repeat ...if I want pvp, i will queue up a pvp BG instead. And "moving towards" the summoning stone is a waste of time for me.
seems like you'd be more comfortable in single player games since interaction with other players apparently is a waste of time.
why even bother with mmo's?
It's really not up to him if the game he likes playing or allows him to play the way he wants with others is labeled as an MMO...
... I am starting to believe you are some kind of troll everytime these kinds of topics come up.
Originally posted by moonbound I do not believe you played these older mmorpgs, what a narrow minded thing to say.
If the age in your profile is correct, you were a 8 years old toddler when I entered UO beta about 20 years ago. What do you know about "older MMORPGs" that I don't know? Ooops...
In 1985 I was playing one of the best computer RPGs I've ever played, Ultima IV, and you weren't even born. Not to mention I've also played all the other Ultima games before, only mentioning U-IV Quest of the Avatar because it's one of the beacons in the history of computer RPGs.
So I think that no matter what you say, I'm definitely more aware about what "old school" MMORPGs ever were than you will ever be. Since I was there when they were released, while you were a little kid.
Actually its no ones business how old I am so of course that is incorrect, secondly your a liar, its clear you never played these mmorpgs as others have pointed out your google search replies are getting old and predictable.
Today's games lack all of what SOME of us old school mmorpg gamers loved.
Fixed.
Originally posted by Syanis
Those who say you can do that in today's games are full of it.
And we still do that regularly with my guild, levelling, doing dungeons, raids, dropping new bosses, being happy when a guildie gets a drop, and generally having fun together.
So permit me to say that it's possibly you and the nostalgia club who are... "full of it" (your words).
Have to agree the things you mentioned can still be done in most of today's MMORPG's.
But...
Those aren't the thing I would be looking for in a MMORPG as in a old school experiance. The thing for me is and I have noticed especially on this forum that I truly have a different kind of playstyle when it comes to MMORPG's. I want a community game, guild are just but part of a community but doesn't make up for the whole. A community game one can go sole and still be social. Speaking from a love of full crafting professions.
The vision I thought this genre would be headed was due to SWG where I thought since we had plenty of multiplayer games that provide that experiance you noted that it had to deliver a more virtual world within a well known universe, where so many different play style's have been brought together. Things felt organic and not forced at all.
And to me it's that organic way of connecting with the world and it's community that has shifted into pure game and little world or community connection.
If you're trying to say that you wish crafting was more important in games, then I totally agree, I actually think killing mobs, be it in the wilds, in dungeons or in raids, should be one of the beginnings of the crafting process, and not the end of it, and that everything equipped in the game should be crafted by another player (or yourself). In UO, top crafters were famous, and there was no need for forced grouping to encourage socialization in that specific game. UO had other problems though which were fixed over the years (grind, macroing, some boring and tedious mechanics).
Seems like we share a similar vision of MMORPGs, which is NOT the old school forced "grouping to grind" EQ1 model. I think you're the first one who points on the true problem of more modern MMORPGs, which is that crafting basically means little to nothing because everything drops already manufactured from mobs and bosses.
But sadly, those "old schoolers" mostly seem to think that "please devs, force people to go bash mobs with 20 others like me again" will encourage "socialization"... which is, and always has been total nonsense. All it encourages is asshats abusing others in order to achieve their own goals because there's no other choice.
Not that many classes in eq1 where forced grouping, classes in eq that where good soloers where necromancers, beastmasters, shamans, druids, and mages, medicore soloers where wizards, rangers, shadow knights, and paladins, almost pure support classes like the enchanter or cleric where always invited into groups same goes for bards. You where saying?
City of heroes was almost the same way and it wasnt that old, you had classes that could solo amazing some where just slower and not once did I see people complain about it in the forums not once, same goes for eq, why? Because they knew what kind of game it was and they did not having problems finding groups in a game where grouping is a key element into the game, the community was aware of this key element and having no issues with enjoying the group content.
This is only your opinion and a few others you dont speak for the majority of gamers, you dont speak for the majority of mmorpg players, and you certainly do not speak for us in this forum like your some kind of mmorpg.com god so please knock it off and stop pretending your opinion is superior then ours, we just want an mmorpg like this get over it please.
Today's games lack all of what SOME of us old school mmorpg gamers loved.
Fixed.
Originally posted by Syanis
Those who say you can do that in today's games are full of it.
And we still do that regularly with my guild, levelling, doing dungeons, raids, dropping new bosses, being happy when a guildie gets a drop, and generally having fun together.
So permit me to say that it's possibly you and the nostalgia club who are... "full of it" (your words).
Have to agree the things you mentioned can still be done in most of today's MMORPG's.
But...
Those aren't the thing I would be looking for in a MMORPG as in a old school experiance. The thing for me is and I have noticed especially on this forum that I truly have a different kind of playstyle when it comes to MMORPG's. I want a community game, guild are just but part of a community but doesn't make up for the whole. A community game one can go sole and still be social. Speaking from a love of full crafting professions.
The vision I thought this genre would be headed was due to SWG where I thought since we had plenty of multiplayer games that provide that experiance you noted that it had to deliver a more virtual world within a well known universe, where so many different play style's have been brought together. Things felt organic and not forced at all.
And to me it's that organic way of connecting with the world and it's community that has shifted into pure game and little world or community connection.
If you're trying to say that you wish crafting was more important in games, then I totally agree, I actually think killing mobs, be it in the wilds, in dungeons or in raids, should be one of the beginnings of the crafting process, and not the end of it, and that everything equipped in the game should be crafted by another player (or yourself). In UO, top crafters were famous, and there was no need for forced grouping to encourage socialization in that specific game. UO had other problems though which were fixed over the years (grind, macroing, some boring and tedious mechanics).
Seems like we share a similar vision of MMORPGs, which is NOT the old school forced "grouping to grind" EQ1 model. I think you're the first one who points on the true problem of more modern MMORPGs, which is that crafting basically means little to nothing because everything drops already manufactured from mobs and bosses.
But sadly, those "old schoolers" mostly seem to think that "please devs, force people to go bash mobs with 20 others like me again" will encourage "socialization"... which is, and always has been total nonsense. All it encourages is asshats abusing others in order to achieve their own goals because there's no other choice.
Not that many classes in eq1 where forced grouping, classes in eq that where good soloers where necromancers, beastmasters, shamans, druids, and mages, medicore soloers where wizards, rangers, shadow knights, and paladins, almost pure support classes like the enchanter or cleric where always invited into groups same goes for bards. You where saying?
City of heroes was almost the same way and it wasnt that old, you had classes that could solo amazing some where just slower and not once did I see people complain about it in the forums not once, same goes for eq, why? Because they knew what kind of game it ways and did not having problems finding groups in a game where grouping is a key element into the game and the community having no issues with enjoying the group content.
This is only your opinion and a few others you dont speak for the majority of gamers, you dont speak for the majority of mmorpg players, and you certainly do not speak for us in this forum like your some kind of mmorpg.com god so please knock it off and stop pretending your opinion is superior then ours, we just want an mmorpg like this get over it please.
Today's games lack all of what SOME of us old school mmorpg gamers loved.
Fixed.
Originally posted by Syanis
Those who say you can do that in today's games are full of it.
And we still do that regularly with my guild, levelling, doing dungeons, raids, dropping new bosses, being happy when a guildie gets a drop, and generally having fun together.
So permit me to say that it's possibly you and the nostalgia club who are... "full of it" (your words).
Have to agree the things you mentioned can still be done in most of today's MMORPG's.
But...
Those aren't the thing I would be looking for in a MMORPG as in a old school experiance. The thing for me is and I have noticed especially on this forum that I truly have a different kind of playstyle when it comes to MMORPG's. I want a community game, guild are just but part of a community but doesn't make up for the whole. A community game one can go sole and still be social. Speaking from a love of full crafting professions.
The vision I thought this genre would be headed was due to SWG where I thought since we had plenty of multiplayer games that provide that experiance you noted that it had to deliver a more virtual world within a well known universe, where so many different play style's have been brought together. Things felt organic and not forced at all.
And to me it's that organic way of connecting with the world and it's community that has shifted into pure game and little world or community connection.
If you're trying to say that you wish crafting was more important in games, then I totally agree, I actually think killing mobs, be it in the wilds, in dungeons or in raids, should be one of the beginnings of the crafting process, and not the end of it, and that everything equipped in the game should be crafted by another player (or yourself). In UO, top crafters were famous, and there was no need for forced grouping to encourage socialization in that specific game. UO had other problems though which were fixed over the years (grind, macroing, some boring and tedious mechanics).
Seems like we share a similar vision of MMORPGs, which is NOT the old school forced "grouping to grind" EQ1 model. I think you're the first one who points on the true problem of more modern MMORPGs, which is that crafting basically means little to nothing because everything drops already manufactured from mobs and bosses.
But sadly, those "old schoolers" mostly seem to think that "please devs, force people to go bash mobs with 20 others like me again" will encourage "socialization"... which is, and always has been total nonsense. All it encourages is asshats abusing others in order to achieve their own goals because there's no other choice.
Not that many classes in eq1 where forced grouping, classes in eq that where good soloers where necromancers, beastmasters, shamans, druids, and mages, medicore soloers where wizards, rangers, shadow knights, and paladins, almost pure support classes like the enchanter or cleric where always invited into groups same goes for bards. You where saying?
City of heroes was almost the same way and it wasnt that old, you had classes that could solo amazing some where just slower and not once did I see people complain about it in the forums not once, same goes for eq, why? Because they knew what kind of game it ways and did not having problems finding groups in a game where grouping is a key element into the game and the community having no issues with enjoying the group content.
This is only your opinion and a few others you dont speak for the majority of gamers, you dont speak for the majority of mmorpg players, and you certainly do not speak for us in this forum like your some kind of mmorpg.com god so please knock it off and stop pretending your opinion is superior then ours, we just want an mmorpg like this get over it please.
My god, the irony...
My god what irony? Show me exactly where I said all mmorpg or gamers feel this way? I never stated anything of of the like only they this person does not speak for them all and some of us obviously do want something beyond the solo mmo experience.
Today's games lack all of what SOME of us old school mmorpg gamers loved.
Fixed.
Originally posted by Syanis
Those who say you can do that in today's games are full of it.
And we still do that regularly with my guild, levelling, doing dungeons, raids, dropping new bosses, being happy when a guildie gets a drop, and generally having fun together.
So permit me to say that it's possibly you and the nostalgia club who are... "full of it" (your words).
Have to agree the things you mentioned can still be done in most of today's MMORPG's.
But...
Those aren't the thing I would be looking for in a MMORPG as in a old school experiance. The thing for me is and I have noticed especially on this forum that I truly have a different kind of playstyle when it comes to MMORPG's. I want a community game, guild are just but part of a community but doesn't make up for the whole. A community game one can go sole and still be social. Speaking from a love of full crafting professions.
The vision I thought this genre would be headed was due to SWG where I thought since we had plenty of multiplayer games that provide that experiance you noted that it had to deliver a more virtual world within a well known universe, where so many different play style's have been brought together. Things felt organic and not forced at all.
And to me it's that organic way of connecting with the world and it's community that has shifted into pure game and little world or community connection.
If you're trying to say that you wish crafting was more important in games, then I totally agree, I actually think killing mobs, be it in the wilds, in dungeons or in raids, should be one of the beginnings of the crafting process, and not the end of it, and that everything equipped in the game should be crafted by another player (or yourself). In UO, top crafters were famous, and there was no need for forced grouping to encourage socialization in that specific game. UO had other problems though which were fixed over the years (grind, macroing, some boring and tedious mechanics).
Seems like we share a similar vision of MMORPGs, which is NOT the old school forced "grouping to grind" EQ1 model. I think you're the first one who points on the true problem of more modern MMORPGs, which is that crafting basically means little to nothing because everything drops already manufactured from mobs and bosses.
But sadly, those "old schoolers" mostly seem to think that "please devs, force people to go bash mobs with 20 others like me again" will encourage "socialization"... which is, and always has been total nonsense. All it encourages is asshats abusing others in order to achieve their own goals because there's no other choice.
Not that many classes in eq1 where forced grouping, classes in eq that where good soloers where necromancers, beastmasters, shamans, druids, and mages, medicore soloers where wizards, rangers, shadow knights, and paladins, almost pure support classes like the enchanter or cleric where always invited into groups same goes for bards. You where saying?
City of heroes was almost the same way and it wasnt that old, you had classes that could solo amazing some where just slower and not once did I see people complain about it in the forums not once, same goes for eq, why? Because they knew what kind of game it ways and did not having problems finding groups in a game where grouping is a key element into the game and the community having no issues with enjoying the group content.
This is only your opinion and a few others you dont speak for the majority of gamers, you dont speak for the majority of mmorpg players, and you certainly do not speak for us in this forum like your some kind of mmorpg.com god so please knock it off and stop pretending your opinion is superior then ours, we just want an mmorpg like this get over it please.
My god, the irony...
My god what irony? Show me exactly where I said all mmorpg or gamers feel this way? I never stated anything of of the like only they this person does not speak for them all and some of us obviously do want something beyond the solo mmo experience.
You basically stated in a nutshell that your opinion is not ours but my opinion is ours, and cover it as 'we...'
Everyone wants to represent a group of people and call out people who represent a group of people...
Today's games lack all of what SOME of us old school mmorpg gamers loved.
Fixed.
Originally posted by Syanis
Those who say you can do that in today's games are full of it.
And we still do that regularly with my guild, levelling, doing dungeons, raids, dropping new bosses, being happy when a guildie gets a drop, and generally having fun together.
So permit me to say that it's possibly you and the nostalgia club who are... "full of it" (your words).
Have to agree the things you mentioned can still be done in most of today's MMORPG's.
But...
Those aren't the thing I would be looking for in a MMORPG as in a old school experiance. The thing for me is and I have noticed especially on this forum that I truly have a different kind of playstyle when it comes to MMORPG's. I want a community game, guild are just but part of a community but doesn't make up for the whole. A community game one can go sole and still be social. Speaking from a love of full crafting professions.
The vision I thought this genre would be headed was due to SWG where I thought since we had plenty of multiplayer games that provide that experiance you noted that it had to deliver a more virtual world within a well known universe, where so many different play style's have been brought together. Things felt organic and not forced at all.
And to me it's that organic way of connecting with the world and it's community that has shifted into pure game and little world or community connection.
If you're trying to say that you wish crafting was more important in games, then I totally agree, I actually think killing mobs, be it in the wilds, in dungeons or in raids, should be one of the beginnings of the crafting process, and not the end of it, and that everything equipped in the game should be crafted by another player (or yourself). In UO, top crafters were famous, and there was no need for forced grouping to encourage socialization in that specific game. UO had other problems though which were fixed over the years (grind, macroing, some boring and tedious mechanics).
Seems like we share a similar vision of MMORPGs, which is NOT the old school forced "grouping to grind" EQ1 model. I think you're the first one who points on the true problem of more modern MMORPGs, which is that crafting basically means little to nothing because everything drops already manufactured from mobs and bosses.
But sadly, those "old schoolers" mostly seem to think that "please devs, force people to go bash mobs with 20 others like me again" will encourage "socialization"... which is, and always has been total nonsense. All it encourages is asshats abusing others in order to achieve their own goals because there's no other choice.
Not that many classes in eq1 where forced grouping, classes in eq that where good soloers where necromancers, beastmasters, shamans, druids, and mages, medicore soloers where wizards, rangers, shadow knights, and paladins, almost pure support classes like the enchanter or cleric where always invited into groups same goes for bards. You where saying?
City of heroes was almost the same way and it wasnt that old, you had classes that could solo amazing some where just slower and not once did I see people complain about it in the forums not once, same goes for eq, why? Because they knew what kind of game it ways and did not having problems finding groups in a game where grouping is a key element into the game and the community having no issues with enjoying the group content.
This is only your opinion and a few others you dont speak for the majority of gamers, you dont speak for the majority of mmorpg players, and you certainly do not speak for us in this forum like your some kind of mmorpg.com god so please knock it off and stop pretending your opinion is superior then ours, we just want an mmorpg like this get over it please.
My god, the irony...
My god what irony? Show me exactly where I said all mmorpg or gamers feel this way? I never stated anything of of the like only they this person does not speak for them all and some of us obviously do want something beyond the solo mmo experience.
You basically stated in a nutshell that your opinion is not ours but my opinion is ours, and cover it as 'we...'
Everyone wants to represent a group of people and call out people who represent a group of people...
No I did not do this at all, I represented us old school mmorpg players in this thread as there are many here discussing this issue. I speak for the older school mmorpg communities I speak from my experience again there is no irony, I only represent from what ive seen in these communities and what I said is 100 percent trurth rather you believe it or not. The difference between is I actually played in these communities so I so everything first hand including any complaints from the forums to the chats in game. It is not just my opinion it is a shared opinion which is obvious across these forums.
The problem with MMO's today is they're dumbdown and too easy and feel like online games instead of online worlds you explore and adventure in.
And even the handful of MMO's out right now that got the online world to explore and play in right, messed up the other aspects.
Crafting seems an after thought, player housing and guild halls are missing.... no player choice when building your spec anymore, and about the only thing they focus on in today's MMO's is the carrot on the stick gear grind.
Played: MCO - EQ/EQ2 - WoW - VG - WAR - AoC - LoTRO - DDO - GW/GW2 - Eve - Rift - FE - TSW - TSO - WS - ESO - AA - BD Playing: Sims 3 & 4, Diablo3 and PoE Waiting on: Lost Ark Who's going to make a Cyberpunk MMO?
Today's games lack all of what SOME of us old school mmorpg gamers loved.
Fixed.
Originally posted by Syanis
Those who say you can do that in today's games are full of it.
And we still do that regularly with my guild, levelling, doing dungeons, raids, dropping new bosses, being happy when a guildie gets a drop, and generally having fun together.
So permit me to say that it's possibly you and the nostalgia club who are... "full of it" (your words).
Have to agree the things you mentioned can still be done in most of today's MMORPG's.
But...
Those aren't the thing I would be looking for in a MMORPG as in a old school experiance. The thing for me is and I have noticed especially on this forum that I truly have a different kind of playstyle when it comes to MMORPG's. I want a community game, guild are just but part of a community but doesn't make up for the whole. A community game one can go sole and still be social. Speaking from a love of full crafting professions.
The vision I thought this genre would be headed was due to SWG where I thought since we had plenty of multiplayer games that provide that experiance you noted that it had to deliver a more virtual world within a well known universe, where so many different play style's have been brought together. Things felt organic and not forced at all.
And to me it's that organic way of connecting with the world and it's community that has shifted into pure game and little world or community connection.
If you're trying to say that you wish crafting was more important in games, then I totally agree, I actually think killing mobs, be it in the wilds, in dungeons or in raids, should be one of the beginnings of the crafting process, and not the end of it, and that everything equipped in the game should be crafted by another player (or yourself). In UO, top crafters were famous, and there was no need for forced grouping to encourage socialization in that specific game. UO had other problems though which were fixed over the years (grind, macroing, some boring and tedious mechanics).
Seems like we share a similar vision of MMORPGs, which is NOT the old school forced "grouping to grind" EQ1 model. I think you're the first one who points on the true problem of more modern MMORPGs, which is that crafting basically means little to nothing because everything drops already manufactured from mobs and bosses.
But sadly, those "old schoolers" mostly seem to think that "please devs, force people to go bash mobs with 20 others like me again" will encourage "socialization"... which is, and always has been total nonsense. All it encourages is asshats abusing others in order to achieve their own goals because there's no other choice.
Not that many classes in eq1 where forced grouping, classes in eq that where good soloers where necromancers, beastmasters, shamans, druids, and mages, medicore soloers where wizards, rangers, shadow knights, and paladins, almost pure support classes like the enchanter or cleric where always invited into groups same goes for bards. You where saying?
City of heroes was almost the same way and it wasnt that old, you had classes that could solo amazing some where just slower and not once did I see people complain about it in the forums not once, same goes for eq, why? Because they knew what kind of game it ways and did not having problems finding groups in a game where grouping is a key element into the game and the community having no issues with enjoying the group content.
This is only your opinion and a few others you dont speak for the majority of gamers, you dont speak for the majority of mmorpg players, and you certainly do not speak for us in this forum like your some kind of mmorpg.com god so please knock it off and stop pretending your opinion is superior then ours, we just want an mmorpg like this get over it please.
My god, the irony...
My god what irony? Show me exactly where I said all mmorpg or gamers feel this way? I never stated anything of of the like only they this person does not speak for them all and some of us obviously do want something beyond the solo mmo experience.
Hmm well he didn't speak for them all as he spoke to me about "those oldschoolers" we referenced about in regards of wanting the "forced group part"
So only "those" who fit that profile are the ones he spoke of. Atleast to me that doesn't mean all now does it?
As for your reference to EQ1 I can not really comment other then seeing EQ wishes around the net gearing more towards group play but not so much in a organic fashion that is in atleast my own opinion that you shouldn't mistake with being fact.
I am all for group dynamics/tactics and what not but I have allot of other genre's that provide me just that and I enjoy them like that. As said give me a virtual world that feel organic/realistic in the way's things are in that world. This doesn't mean I want the whole genre to change but as I 've said many time I feel there is room enough.
I think the hardest part for developers is to find that sweet spot to bring gamers of all sorts together and another problem today is many people(which does not mean ALL) want full acces to the game. In some way's understandable due to that's what many are used to or simply want from their gaming experiance.
But I think there are plenty of US again not ment as in majority but just many that would like a MMORPG experiance to go beyond that what we already can get from single or multiplayer games.
Today's games lack all of what SOME of us old school mmorpg gamers loved.
Fixed.
Originally posted by Syanis
Those who say you can do that in today's games are full of it.
And we still do that regularly with my guild, levelling, doing dungeons, raids, dropping new bosses, being happy when a guildie gets a drop, and generally having fun together.
So permit me to say that it's possibly you and the nostalgia club who are... "full of it" (your words).
Have to agree the things you mentioned can still be done in most of today's MMORPG's.
But...
Those aren't the thing I would be looking for in a MMORPG as in a old school experiance. The thing for me is and I have noticed especially on this forum that I truly have a different kind of playstyle when it comes to MMORPG's. I want a community game, guild are just but part of a community but doesn't make up for the whole. A community game one can go sole and still be social. Speaking from a love of full crafting professions.
The vision I thought this genre would be headed was due to SWG where I thought since we had plenty of multiplayer games that provide that experiance you noted that it had to deliver a more virtual world within a well known universe, where so many different play style's have been brought together. Things felt organic and not forced at all.
And to me it's that organic way of connecting with the world and it's community that has shifted into pure game and little world or community connection.
If you're trying to say that you wish crafting was more important in games, then I totally agree, I actually think killing mobs, be it in the wilds, in dungeons or in raids, should be one of the beginnings of the crafting process, and not the end of it, and that everything equipped in the game should be crafted by another player (or yourself). In UO, top crafters were famous, and there was no need for forced grouping to encourage socialization in that specific game. UO had other problems though which were fixed over the years (grind, macroing, some boring and tedious mechanics).
Seems like we share a similar vision of MMORPGs, which is NOT the old school forced "grouping to grind" EQ1 model. I think you're the first one who points on the true problem of more modern MMORPGs, which is that crafting basically means little to nothing because everything drops already manufactured from mobs and bosses.
But sadly, those "old schoolers" mostly seem to think that "please devs, force people to go bash mobs with 20 others like me again" will encourage "socialization"... which is, and always has been total nonsense. All it encourages is asshats abusing others in order to achieve their own goals because there's no other choice.
Not that many classes in eq1 where forced grouping, classes in eq that where good soloers where necromancers, beastmasters, shamans, druids, and mages, medicore soloers where wizards, rangers, shadow knights, and paladins, almost pure support classes like the enchanter or cleric where always invited into groups same goes for bards. You where saying?
City of heroes was almost the same way and it wasnt that old, you had classes that could solo amazing some where just slower and not once did I see people complain about it in the forums not once, same goes for eq, why? Because they knew what kind of game it ways and did not having problems finding groups in a game where grouping is a key element into the game and the community having no issues with enjoying the group content.
This is only your opinion and a few others you dont speak for the majority of gamers, you dont speak for the majority of mmorpg players, and you certainly do not speak for us in this forum like your some kind of mmorpg.com god so please knock it off and stop pretending your opinion is superior then ours, we just want an mmorpg like this get over it please.
My god, the irony...
My god what irony? Show me exactly where I said all mmorpg or gamers feel this way? I never stated anything of of the like only they this person does not speak for them all and some of us obviously do want something beyond the solo mmo experience.
Hmm well he didn't speak for them all as he spoke to me about "those oldschoolers" we referenced about in regards of wanting the "forced group part"
So only "those" who fit that profile are the ones he spoke of. Atleast to me that doesn't mean all now does it?
As for your reference to EQ1 I can not really comment other then seeing EQ wishes around the net gearing more towards group play but not so much in a organic fashion that is in atleast my own opinion that you shouldn't mistake with being fact.
I am all for group dynamics/tactics and what not but I have allot of other genre's that provide me just that and I enjoy them like that. As said give me a virtual world that feel organic/realistic in the way's things are in that world. This doesn't mean I want the whole genre to change but as I 've said many time I feel there is room enough.
I think the hardest part for developers is to find that sweet spot to bring gamers of all sorts together and another problem today is many people(which does not mean ALL) want full acces to the game. In some way's understandable due to that's what many are used to or simply want from their gaming experiance.
But I think there are plenty of US again not ment as in majority but just many that would like a MMORPG experiance to go beyond that what we already can get from single or multiplayer games.
I feel the same, I certainly do not want eq1 super time consuming issues or without lfg tools, the problem is all these younger mmorpg players like to assume we want it exactly the same no we want an mmorpg with older ideas mixed with new ones, we want truly meaningful multiplayer experience with a decent community without these easy mode crap destroying our souls.
What you want is old-school mechanics in a new school engine with new school art?
And for people to stop thinking you a fool for wanting ancient pixelish graphics, when that's not what you want at all.
Am I getting this right?
Nope still wrong.
The old school mechanics also require updated. It is merely the concept of the game that many want back and carried forward using modern technology and understanding about game development. This includes lessons learned from multiple genres including those outside of video games such as RPGs.
And honestly how hard is this to understand? You either have enough experience in gaming (in many genres) to realize there are many different approaches one can take to making mmos or you lack such experience and spout the argumentative crap so many do here simply for the point of arguing.
Old school is only called old school because the concept of the game has become lost due profit grabbing over game design. It would never have needed to be called old school if these games were allowed to evolve (there initial mechanics were often horrible and further bound by tech limitations ... EVERYONE expected them to improve). Both graphics and mechanics would change over time but the core concept would remain. Large developers stripped the core concept in favor of adapting mmos to the masses therefore making them more like an arcade game over living worlds fostering community.Community power was stripped along with concept therefore relegating mmorpg a thing of the past and therefore old school.
Well ... we want our fucking game back. Who are we? Anyone wanting that multi-player RPG concept back of fantasy realism. Anyone wanting to log into a mmorpg and have it feel like you are walking out of your front door into a real living fantasy world with nearly all the choices one has in real life. What the games looks like or what mechanics are thrown together to construct it matter fucking not ... they only have to function together to successfully create AND maintain the concept of the game. It cannot be rewritten entirely each expansion. It cannot be abruptly changed because a new business model proves better short term profit gains. It cannot be about changing the game to attract new and different players. This is what has happened to nearly every mmo created by large developers.
Magic the gathering doesn't become a dice game because it would destroy the game and upset the players who play it.
Warhammer doesn't change to a card game because it would destroy the game and upset the community.
Second life doesn't become an action FPS because it would destroy the community and concept of the game.
Am I starting to make a point here because it seems people have to type this shit out over and over and we still get over simplified responses from what apparently are people clueless in both reading and comprehension. If this continues to confuse those reading this please go out and gain life experience in other social gaming like RPGs and table top games to understand that other players are there to ENHANCE the game and not be there as an annoyance and competition. Grasp this concept and perhaps proper dialogue can be constructed for once.
I don't post here much anymore but thanks for this post. My MMO days are behind me for I can't find any to my liking. The day we get another SWG type game that is made by a company that has the funds to do it right I will return.
What you want is old-school mechanics in a new school engine with new school art?
And for people to stop thinking you a fool for wanting ancient pixelish graphics, when that's not what you want at all.
Am I getting this right?
Nope still wrong.
The old school mechanics also require updated. It is merely the concept of the game that many want back and carried forward using modern technology and understanding about game development. This includes lessons learned from multiple genres including those outside of video games such as RPGs.
And honestly how hard is this to understand? You either have enough experience in gaming (in many genres) to realize there are many different approaches one can take to making mmos or you lack such experience and spout the argumentative crap so many do here simply for the point of arguing.
Old school is only called old school because the concept of the game has become lost due profit grabbing over game design. It would never have needed to be called old school if these games were allowed to evolve (there initial mechanics were often horrible and further bound by tech limitations ... EVERYONE expected them to improve). Both graphics and mechanics would change over time but the core concept would remain. Large developers stripped the core concept in favor of adapting mmos to the masses therefore making them more like an arcade game over living worlds fostering community.Community power was stripped along with concept therefore relegating mmorpg a thing of the past and therefore old school.
Well ... we want our fucking game back. Who are we? Anyone wanting that multi-player RPG concept back of fantasy realism. Anyone wanting to log into a mmorpg and have it feel like you are walking out of your front door into a real living fantasy world with nearly all the choices one has in real life. What the games looks like or what mechanics are thrown together to construct it matter fucking not ... they only have to function together to successfully create AND maintain the concept of the game. It cannot be rewritten entirely each expansion. It cannot be abruptly changed because a new business model proves better short term profit gains. It cannot be about changing the game to attract new and different players. This is what has happened to nearly every mmo created by large developers.
Magic the gathering doesn't become a dice game because it would destroy the game and upset the players who play it.
Warhammer doesn't change to a card game because it would destroy the game and upset the community.
Second life doesn't become an action FPS because it would destroy the community and concept of the game.
Am I starting to make a point here because it seems people have to type this shit out over and over and we still get over simplified responses from what apparently are people clueless in both reading and comprehension. If this continues to confuse those reading this please go out and gain life experience in other social gaming like RPGs and table top games to understand that other players are there to ENHANCE the game and not be there as an annoyance and competition. Grasp this concept and perhaps proper dialogue can be constructed for once.
I don't post here much anymore but thanks for this post. My MMO days are behind me for I can't find any to my liking. The day we get another SWG type game that is made by a company that has the funds to do it right I will return.
I did not notice this post, probably the best post ive read in a long time possibly the best post about mmorpgs, Also have you tried ryzom? I hear its similar to swg.
I did not notice this post, probably the best post ive read in a long time possibly the best post about mmorpgs, Also have you tried ryzom? I hear its similar to swg.
No it's not really, it's an interesting game, with some of the best mob AI in the business, yet it's nothing like SWG.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Comments
Think it must be your memory that is shoddy. EQ1, DAoC, EQ2, and WoW classic all had forced grouping unless you played that 1 solo class and pretty much had 95% of the game content locked out to you. Those were the big classic mmorpgs that built the genre and all focused heavily on grouping and a server community. That is what made those games great because people actually made regular friends, a good player could be known and desired. a jerk player would be known and shunned even to the point of rerolling on a new server. And as it took time to level, often serious time, you made a set of friends to work with and grow with like a gamer family for many of us.
Today's games lack all of what most of us old school mmorpg gamers loved. We didn't mind the grind because we were with friends exploring and adventuring doing stupid sh*t but having fun which is what it was all about. When one of us got a sweet drop the entire group of friends were happy for them and felt they also because that drop would help the group as they were a regular crew.
Those who say you can do that in today's games are full of it. Sure, theoretically you could get a group of friends to do slowmode grouping but their isn't generally content for that except for dungeons and usually its like 1 new dungeon for every 5-6 levels that is instanced and very short. However the real challenge is finding 5-6 people who want to wait on eachother in a game that levels extremely quick were everyone else's focus is on making max level to raid and insta gear.
I for one however would love to see an old style mmorpg with modern graphics. I don't mind the grind but I want the social and community aspect brought back. I want levels to be slow and not focused on getting max level as quick as possible. No dungeon finder especially cross server dungeon finder.... maybe if you make a premade allow a form of queue porting to dungeon at most. Make drops rare and promote crafting again. Bring back dungeon competition but let the social / community aspect of the game keep things in check. Bring back difficulty to playing and dungeons. Soloing should be hard and not something in tune to most class's unless you want to sit around killing stuff 5 levels below you all day long without much of any reward. Bring back a mix of class's that have many different roles besides the now core 3 roles (dps, tank, healer).... bring back cc and support as well which works great in a 6 man group. I'd love to see a revamp of DAoC, EQ, or EQ2 as they were at release with modern graphics.
Only if you choose to play that way (i.e. Maximize my Efficiency with XP/Hour). Gotta level at max speed, gogogogo.
If you can enjoy sub-optimal leveling speed (and mmo gamers seem to forget that still exists, in every game out there), you can grind wolves. You can group up for dungeon runs. You can do all of your traveling with a partner. You can explore.
The only thing "forcing" anyone to Quest is being in a Hurry To Reach Cap. And habit, once they've reached one.
Now, I'll grant you that certain titles (ahem) don't have much else in the way of story or characters or plot lines or history or Lore. That's an effect of corporations cutting CE budgets to the bone. Maximize profit by minimizing payroll--just like Walmart.
But it isn't universal, at least, not yet.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
What cost is there to spending time with friends?
You simply value diffrent things, I MUST get to max level at BEST speed so that I can get COOL gear and the TROPHIES.
(Compete with millions of copies of Mr. Jones. Competitive RPG play, first, best, coolest trophies)
Or, I MUST have a GOOD time with my buds doing...whatever we decide to do tonight.
(Cooperative RPG play, the friends and the fun are #1 priority. If someone else gets there first, good for him.)
If anything, all there is to resent in this is the negative value social engineering of MMO Reward strategies. But those have been a staple part of MMOs since...ever.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
seems like you'd be more comfortable in single player games since interaction with other players apparently is a waste of time.
why even bother with mmo's?
I had fun once, it was terrible.
I don't think so. I agree with the OP. Modern MMOs have no soul, feel empty, and are nothing more than single player RPGs that just happen to have others playing on the same server. Grouping is completely optional for all but the most difficult content.
Jaded, maybe, but when the genre we loved is full of real life Veruca Salt players that were introduced to it by none other than the original easy mode, make garbage players feel they are l33t Raiders, clone of UO & EQ known as the most successful MMO ever or WoW, then yeah, jaded might be appropriate.
I want a game just like the OP describes. Give me a game that has modern engines and some newer mechanics but feels like a real world where people actually chat with each other and explore together then I'll gladly play. I want it to leave out the mechanics that WoW brought to the table and thereby filled a great genre with crybaby Verucas. Those would include, telegraphs, group/raid finders, instant travel, and cash shops.
Newer isn't always better.
Because of unique gameplay and IP. There is no modern action RPG with marvel characters, for example. Marvel Heroes is it. So i play it despite it is a MMO.
If MMOs are still about player interactions, do you think I will be here?
That is what i like about them.
Newer isn't always better. In the case of MMO, it is. But "better" is subjective. So it is better for me.
These Johnny Come Latelys don't care about what MMORPGs have become. They are only here to be "entertained". In fact, they pepper almost every post with the word. They expect YOU to move on, not them, even though MMORPGs were never for content locusts looking for free "entertainment". They just want to be apart of something they shouldn't be apart of.
The older gamers who are passionate about their HOBBY, are being pushed out of the genre by people that don't even care about it. That's one of the saddest parts of watching our old friend, the MMORPG, die.
And let's face it, EQ had 450K players back when it was the bees knees. Not all 450K of those players post here. Be cautious of those who claim to be like you ( a veteran of old school), but call for more "evolution in gaming" (free lobby-based online games).
Now watch the usual suspects come in after their google searching to make claims that, they too, are veterans with their vague examples of proof. MMORPGs was never a hobby for them, and we just need to move along because they're here now.
I want an Audi. I can buy one right now. But, because of where I live and the work I do, I drive a 4x4 truck. Do I whine to Audi to make their awesome cars with 18 inch ground clearance and all-the-time four wheel drive? No. Do I tell them that my feels are hurt because I'm left out and they are being unfair? hahaha, no.
And what exactly is "forced grouping"? Nobody is forcing you to play. Some of the "logic" of these snowflakes don't make any sense.
Just like:
Farming
Camping
Running through danger to get somewhere
Meeting people and playing together for years
It never occurs to them that some of us liked that stuff (I know "like" is suggestive, right?)?
Have to agree the things you mentioned can still be done in most of today's MMORPG's.
But...
Those aren't the thing I would be looking for in a MMORPG as in a old school experiance. The thing for me is and I have noticed especially on this forum that I truly have a different kind of playstyle when it comes to MMORPG's. I want a community game, guild are just but part of a community but doesn't make up for the whole. A community game one can go sole and still be social. Speaking from a love of full crafting professions.
The vision I thought this genre would be headed was due to SWG where I thought since we had plenty of multiplayer games that provide that experiance you noted that it had to deliver a more virtual world within a well known universe, where so many different play style's have been brought together. Things felt organic and not forced at all.
And to me it's that organic way of connecting with the world and it's community that has shifted into pure game and little world or community connection.
Do you Google these examples and references to gain credibility? Because real veterans of those games miss all that you're complaining about.
It's really not up to him if the game he likes playing or allows him to play the way he wants with others is labeled as an MMO...
Actually its no ones business how old I am so of course that is incorrect, secondly your a liar, its clear you never played these mmorpgs as others have pointed out your google search replies are getting old and predictable.
Not that many classes in eq1 where forced grouping, classes in eq that where good soloers where necromancers, beastmasters, shamans, druids, and mages, medicore soloers where wizards, rangers, shadow knights, and paladins, almost pure support classes like the enchanter or cleric where always invited into groups same goes for bards. You where saying?
City of heroes was almost the same way and it wasnt that old, you had classes that could solo amazing some where just slower and not once did I see people complain about it in the forums not once, same goes for eq, why? Because they knew what kind of game it was and they did not having problems finding groups in a game where grouping is a key element into the game, the community was aware of this key element and having no issues with enjoying the group content.
This is only your opinion and a few others you dont speak for the majority of gamers, you dont speak for the majority of mmorpg players, and you certainly do not speak for us in this forum like your some kind of mmorpg.com god so please knock it off and stop pretending your opinion is superior then ours, we just want an mmorpg like this get over it please.
My god, the irony...
My god what irony? Show me exactly where I said all mmorpg or gamers feel this way? I never stated anything of of the like only they this person does not speak for them all and some of us obviously do want something beyond the solo mmo experience.
You basically stated in a nutshell that your opinion is not ours but my opinion is ours, and cover it as 'we...'
Everyone wants to represent a group of people and call out people who represent a group of people...
No I did not do this at all, I represented us old school mmorpg players in this thread as there are many here discussing this issue. I speak for the older school mmorpg communities I speak from my experience again there is no irony, I only represent from what ive seen in these communities and what I said is 100 percent trurth rather you believe it or not. The difference between is I actually played in these communities so I so everything first hand including any complaints from the forums to the chats in game. It is not just my opinion it is a shared opinion which is obvious across these forums.
So again what irony?
The problem with MMO's today is they're dumbdown and too easy and feel like online games instead of online worlds you explore and adventure in.
And even the handful of MMO's out right now that got the online world to explore and play in right, messed up the other aspects.
Crafting seems an after thought, player housing and guild halls are missing.... no player choice when building your spec anymore, and about the only thing they focus on in today's MMO's is the carrot on the stick gear grind.
Played: MCO - EQ/EQ2 - WoW - VG - WAR - AoC - LoTRO - DDO - GW/GW2 - Eve - Rift - FE - TSW - TSO - WS - ESO - AA - BD
Playing: Sims 3 & 4, Diablo3 and PoE
Waiting on: Lost Ark
Who's going to make a Cyberpunk MMO?
Hmm well he didn't speak for them all as he spoke to me about "those oldschoolers" we referenced about in regards of wanting the "forced group part"
So only "those" who fit that profile are the ones he spoke of. Atleast to me that doesn't mean all now does it?
As for your reference to EQ1 I can not really comment other then seeing EQ wishes around the net gearing more towards group play but not so much in a organic fashion that is in atleast my own opinion that you shouldn't mistake with being fact.
I am all for group dynamics/tactics and what not but I have allot of other genre's that provide me just that and I enjoy them like that. As said give me a virtual world that feel organic/realistic in the way's things are in that world. This doesn't mean I want the whole genre to change but as I 've said many time I feel there is room enough.
I think the hardest part for developers is to find that sweet spot to bring gamers of all sorts together and another problem today is many people(which does not mean ALL) want full acces to the game. In some way's understandable due to that's what many are used to or simply want from their gaming experiance.
But I think there are plenty of US again not ment as in majority but just many that would like a MMORPG experiance to go beyond that what we already can get from single or multiplayer games.
I feel the same, I certainly do not want eq1 super time consuming issues or without lfg tools, the problem is all these younger mmorpg players like to assume we want it exactly the same no we want an mmorpg with older ideas mixed with new ones, we want truly meaningful multiplayer experience with a decent community without these easy mode crap destroying our souls.
I don't post here much anymore but thanks for this post. My MMO days are behind me for I can't find any to my liking. The day we get another SWG type game that is made by a company that has the funds to do it right I will return.
I did not notice this post, probably the best post ive read in a long time possibly the best post about mmorpgs, Also have you tried ryzom? I hear its similar to swg.
No it's not really, it's an interesting game, with some of the best mob AI in the business, yet it's nothing like SWG.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson