What is true pay to win - buying best item in game from cash shop that is *vastly superior* to EVERYTHING that can be attained via gameplay. Like a sword that can 1 shot players - where all other items in game would take at least 20 hits.
That would be an example of Pay to Win item - i've never seen this in ANY so called P2W game period
That is true Pay To Win - I am yet to find a game that really has this. None of the games being labeled P2W fit this criteria - because they're not pay to win, they are pay to faster.
I have to agree with this. This is how i've always interpreted "p2w", because some asian mmos were always like this, circa 2005 or earlier. It was never prevalent in the west though.
People are confusing power with progress. The former has always been associated with "p2w".
However, i do see it masquerading behind time-gated mechanics.
The Skyforge progression system is really weird and relies on a ton of weekly and daily limits for all sorts of currency. This is supposed to keep everyone on an even playing field but there are already ways to get around it.
I used to be strictly in the "pay-for-progression IS pay-to-win" camp but I don't really see it mattering in this game.
I was deciding what founders pack to buy and upon doing a bit of research it turns out that the highest founder pack (about 65€ which is quite reasonable compared to what Trion and Perfect World are offering on a regular basis) does include a "legendary weapon" that is among the best weapons in the game and will last you for the first 2 months or 36k prestige.
This is really not why the majority of people play these games. Carrying around the same weapon for 2 months is incredibly boring, especially while you are leveling up.
This deterred me from choosing the highest founder pack and I went with the lowest one instead. If I am not bored with the game after 7 days I will reconsider.
Aside from that the game doesn't seem to go the usual "oh your bag is full after 2 quests, better enlarge it with real money" bullshit, in fact it seems to be a waste to upgrade the inventory at all. I am very happy about that.
For now I don't really see this game as a classical MMO and more like a mix between Diablo and Phantasy Star Online with light multiplayer aspects.
I don't have an opinion on the PVP side and that might become an issue albeit none that I am personally invested in.
Again if a non-spending F2P gamers feels compelled, coerced, forced, or wants to spend money on a cash shop item. Then that is P2W.
No that is not P2W at all. If the cash shop sold purely cosmetic stuff and at the same time compelled players to buy cosmetic items - it wouldn't be pay to win.
coercion or forcing to spend money is illegal - which game does this?
Also the last thing you said wanting to spend money - wants vary greatly from one person to another - again not pay to win. How people chose to spend money and what things they want is their own business.
Yes it is. When a powerful item is sold in the cash shop, it is wanted by most gamers. If not all gamers. The power of the item makes it wanted. Being wanted makes it compelled, coerced, forced, or wants to spend money on a cash shop item. So it is not illegal.
There are four classes of gamer: killer, explorer, achiever, and socializer. “Cosmetic” items focus on socializer and achiever gamers. Access to new zones that are sold in the cash shop focus on explorer gamers. And powerful items focus on killer gamers. The general definition of P2W are items that killer type gamer want to spend money on. To be fair all games should be expected to spend money not a select few.
Wants may vary, but it is the wanting to buy the item that makes it P2W or what ever vulgarity the free gamers chose to make up to vilify wanting to buy items in the cash shop.
The developer doesn’t owe the free gamers a fair gaming environment. The role of a free gamer in a F2P game is cannon fodder to the paying customer.
If they free gamers don’t like it, they will be replaced AI.
No one wants cosmetic items. Cosmetic, Vanity and just about every other term used is a euphemism for “xxx”. [self edit] It may be the asian F2P games that primarily went this way.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Yes it is. When a powerful item is sold in the cash shop, it is wanted by most gamers. If not all gamers. The power of the item makes it wanted. Being wanted makes it compelled, coerced, forced, or wants to spend money on a cash shop item. So it is not illegal.
Wanting something means you are coerced into spending money on it?
My wife wants a gucci bag, therefore she is coerced/compelled/forced to buy it? I want a new video card, therefore I am coerced/compelled/forced to buy it?
Do you understand how ridiculous that is?
Wanting something does not carry any implication of coercing...
Also, as for "No one wants cosmetic items."... Well, to quote Inigo Montoya, "I do not think this word means what you think it means".
Yes, people want cosmetic items. Look at the cash shop for path of exile, as an example. Look at how many supporter packs they sell for the cosmetic items in them... Same thing in a lot of F2P games done right. People definitely want cosmetic items. IF they didn't there wouldn't be a market for them.
The simple truth is that there hasn't been 'actual' pay2win games in years. The last 2 made were Allods, and (arguably) Planetside 2. Infact ever since the term was coined (roughly a decade ago, when it actually was a problem), the number of games that employ such design have almost completely died out. Most of which no one really plays.
Simply put, the term 'pay2win' (and good god have there been way too many threads on this dead horse of a topic), has been so overused and misused that the term is now basically meaningless.
Pay2win used to mean 'buying power'. Paying for things that gave you a distinct power advantage over other characters who didn't pay (i.e. better gear). Today, 'Pay2win' means the game has a cashshop. Plain and simple.
This is my take on it as well for the most part.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Power items will always be controversial, but paying to progress faster ( also known as paying to bypass the game) is not much better either. If you can simply pay to bypass the gameplay itself, in order to reach the goal with your deep pockets, then there's a problem with the general design of the game. This is not surprising with the current crop of games being released, especially those from the east.
Of course there'll always be those saying it doesn't harm the game, but you can silently single them out easily (especially here).
Yes it is. When a powerful item is sold in the cash shop, it is wanted by most gamers. If not all gamers. The power of the item makes it wanted. Being wanted makes it compelled, coerced, forced, or wants to spend money on a cash shop item. So it is not illegal.
Oh yeah, btw... there are no powerful items sold in teh cash shop... just sayin'
The simple truth is that there hasn't been 'actual' pay2win games in years. The last 2 made were Allods, and (arguably) Planetside 2. Infact ever since the term was coined (roughly a decade ago, when it actually was a problem), the number of games that employ such design have almost completely died out. Most of which no one really plays.
Simply put, the term 'pay2win' (and good god have there been way too many threads on this dead horse of a topic), has been so overused and misused that the term is now basically meaningless.
Pay2win used to mean 'buying power'. Paying for things that gave you a distinct power advantage over other characters who didn't pay (i.e. better gear). Today, 'Pay2win' means the game has a cashshop. Plain and simple.
This is my take on it as well for the most part.
Indeed, the "pure" P2W games had very crude monetization schemes and made no effort to disguise those schemes at all.
Things are much more sophisticated now. Nowadays the focus is on exploiting human nature by presenting things in a such a way that they look easily obtainable, or just slightly exceed the tolerance levels of the average player.
Some people find it easier to pay to have things now rather than grind an extra 2 or 3 weeks to get it for free. Truth is, many would not even play the game if they were forced to grind that extra 2 or 3 weeks, but that becomes irrelevant, because the illusion of choice is the most important factor. It is an illusion when statistically most players will only ever choose option 1.
Comments
I have to agree with this. This is how i've always interpreted "p2w", because some asian mmos were always like this, circa 2005 or earlier. It was never prevalent in the west though.
People are confusing power with progress. The former has always been associated with "p2w".
However, i do see it masquerading behind time-gated mechanics.
The Skyforge progression system is really weird and relies on a ton of weekly and daily limits for all sorts of currency. This is supposed to keep everyone on an even playing field but there are already ways to get around it.
I used to be strictly in the "pay-for-progression IS pay-to-win" camp but I don't really see it mattering in this game.
I was deciding what founders pack to buy and upon doing a bit of research it turns out that the highest founder pack (about 65€ which is quite reasonable compared to what Trion and Perfect World are offering on a regular basis) does include a "legendary weapon" that is among the best weapons in the game and will last you for the first 2 months or 36k prestige.
This is really not why the majority of people play these games. Carrying around the same weapon for 2 months is incredibly boring, especially while you are leveling up.
This deterred me from choosing the highest founder pack and I went with the lowest one instead. If I am not bored with the game after 7 days I will reconsider.
Aside from that the game doesn't seem to go the usual "oh your bag is full after 2 quests, better enlarge it with real money" bullshit, in fact it seems to be a waste to upgrade the inventory at all. I am very happy about that.
For now I don't really see this game as a classical MMO and more like a mix between Diablo and Phantasy Star Online with light multiplayer aspects.
I don't have an opinion on the PVP side and that might become an issue albeit none that I am personally invested in.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
Can and will are two entirely different scenarios and rely on a lot of what ifs and the like.
Yes it is. When a powerful item is sold in the cash shop, it is wanted by most gamers. If not all gamers. The power of the item makes it wanted. Being wanted makes it compelled, coerced, forced, or wants to spend money on a cash shop item. So it is not illegal.
There are four classes of gamer: killer, explorer, achiever, and socializer. “Cosmetic” items focus on socializer and achiever gamers. Access to new zones that are sold in the cash shop focus on explorer gamers. And powerful items focus on killer gamers. The general definition of P2W are items that killer type gamer want to spend money on. To be fair all games should be expected to spend money not a select few.
Wants may vary, but it is the wanting to buy the item that makes it P2W or what ever vulgarity the free gamers chose to make up to vilify wanting to buy items in the cash shop.
The developer doesn’t owe the free gamers a fair gaming environment. The role of a free gamer in a F2P game is cannon fodder to the paying customer.
If they free gamers don’t like it, they will be replaced AI.
No one wants cosmetic items. Cosmetic, Vanity and just about every other term used is a euphemism for “xxx”. [self edit] It may be the asian F2P games that primarily went this way.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Wanting something means you are coerced into spending money on it?
My wife wants a gucci bag, therefore she is coerced/compelled/forced to buy it? I want a new video card, therefore I am coerced/compelled/forced to buy it?
Do you understand how ridiculous that is?
Wanting something does not carry any implication of coercing...
Also, as for "No one wants cosmetic items."... Well, to quote Inigo Montoya, "I do not think this word means what you think it means".
Yes, people want cosmetic items. Look at the cash shop for path of exile, as an example. Look at how many supporter packs they sell for the cosmetic items in them... Same thing in a lot of F2P games done right. People definitely want cosmetic items. IF they didn't there wouldn't be a market for them.
This is my take on it as well for the most part.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Power items will always be controversial, but paying to progress faster ( also known as paying to bypass the game) is not much better either. If you can simply pay to bypass the gameplay itself, in order to reach the goal with your deep pockets, then there's a problem with the general design of the game. This is not surprising with the current crop of games being released, especially those from the east.
Of course there'll always be those saying it doesn't harm the game, but you can silently single them out easily (especially here).
Oh yeah, btw... there are no powerful items sold in teh cash shop... just sayin'
Indeed, the "pure" P2W games had very crude monetization schemes and made no effort to disguise those schemes at all.
Things are much more sophisticated now. Nowadays the focus is on exploiting human nature by presenting things in a such a way that they look easily obtainable, or just slightly exceed the tolerance levels of the average player.
Some people find it easier to pay to have things now rather than grind an extra 2 or 3 weeks to get it for free. Truth is, many would not even play the game if they were forced to grind that extra 2 or 3 weeks, but that becomes irrelevant, because the illusion of choice is the most important factor. It is an illusion when statistically most players will only ever choose option 1.