Early MMORPGs who did PVP exceptionally well?

KenFisher

Early MMORPGs, released pre-2004.  From what I understand, most had some PVP (any form), a few strongly emphasized it.  Which games did an exceptionally good job at it?

Mavolence

EVE and UO for me. EVE really should be listed in my opinion.

KenFisher

Originally posted by Mavolence
EVE and UO for me. EVE really should be listed in my opinion.

 

Agreed.  I ran out of room.  Write-in vote works :-)

Loktofeit

The answer is entirely dependent on what someone is looking for out of PVP. 

People tend to lump "PVP" into one big category, yet when the topic of PVE rolls around they are more than happy to divide it into crafting, gathering, raiding, elites/bosses, dungeons, rep grinding or whatever other divisions they may have. PVP is no different. 

WOW did battlegrounds very well. DAoC did RvR very well. UO had great guild PVP but really tanked at factions. The PK scene is UO is equally revered and reviled. EVE Online and Puzzle Pirates did territory control well, and they both did them completely differently. Those enjoying the hunt and smaller scale PVP often cite SWG's Bounty Hunting as PVP done well. 

Any answer your poll gets will be useless as each person that replies is basing it on entirely different criteria. 

 

 

Coldren

UO and DAoC, for me, did it best. One for structured PVP, the other for sandbox ffa.

Axehilt

They were pretty much universally bad, when measured in terms of skillful competition (which some believe is the only point of having PVP.)  RPGs by definition involve vertical progression, and world PVP means population imbalances, and both of those things cause PVP to be a lot less about skillful competition than about leveraging those non-skill advantages.

rainorxx

Lineage II. I agree 100%.

Lebros89

Runescape classic. THE ORIGINAL. Not the 2007 graphic updated shit. Wilderness increasing the level difference of combat engagements, locked into 3 swings, losing EVERYTHING if you had a skull or only keeping 3 items if you had no skull. That shit got me shaking in my seat.

Perjure

Shadowbane and UO.

Axehilt

Originally posted by Vardahoth

We get it. You like carebear games like WoW. There are already millions of games out like this already. Why you here on the forums and not playing them?

You don't get it.

WOW's PVP was as casual as any MMORPG. It was an RPG, so it had vertical progression, so it had bad PVP.  (The only exception was tourney play where all players got maxed gear, but those were one-off sort of things and so it wasn't worth getting into WOW PVP for it.)

If you like MMORPG PVP, then your preferred PVP is just as "carebear" casual as any.  If it's winnable by shallow or non-skill factors (like population or progression) then it's casual PVP.

I'm on the forums because I'm at work working and doing something in between compiles.  I do play pure PVP games in my free time though (BF4, TF2, LoL, HotS, etc.)

Scorchien

Originally posted by Axehilt
They were pretty much universally bad, when measured in terms of skillful competition (which some believe is the only point of having PVP.)  RPGs by definition involve vertical progression, and world PVP means population imbalances, and both of those things cause PVP to be a lot less about skillful competition than about leveraging those non-skill advantages.

 You know universally what they are about , they are about havin fuggin fun , instead of poo pooin another thread with useless drivel just stay out of it or contribute to what the op asked ...

 

  Anyhow on topic... UO was alotta fun early , Defending the Oasis against Reds was always a blast ..

  but for me DAoC really took it to another lvl giving realm pride ,stronger team tactics , and more diverse enviroments and goals..

KenFisher

Originally posted by Axehilt
They were pretty much universally bad, when measured in terms of skillful competition [...]

 

That's actually sort of useful information.  It fits with what Lok mentioned about personal perspective and the various forms of PVP.  In my words: One mans desert topping is another mans floor wax.

 

What I'm looking at doing here is coming up with a short list, and identifying design elements from those that fit with specific types of PVPers.

 

RelytDnegel

Originally posted by Loktofeit

The answer is entirely dependent on what someone is looking for out of PVP. 

People tend to lump "PVP" into one big category, yet when the topic of PVE rolls around they are more than happy to divide it into crafting, gathering, raiding, elites/bosses, dungeons, rep grinding or whatever other divisions they may have. PVP is no different. 

WOW did battlegrounds very well. DAoC did RvR very well. UO had great guild PVP but really tanked at factions. The PK scene is UO is equally revered and reviled. EVE Online and Puzzle Pirates did territory control well, and they both did them completely differently. Those enjoying the hunt and smaller scale PVP often cite SWG's Bounty Hunting as PVP done well. 

Any answer your poll gets will be useless as each person that replies is basing it on entirely different criteria. 

 

 

I have to agree with the Puzzle Pirates comment on PvP (can't confirm for EvE as I haven't played). It really came down to a skill match up where latency or hardware specs didn't mean a thing, and where the consequences of winning/losing were meaningful. I played for about 3 years quite a long time ago now (6 years), controlled islands, flags and all that. Miss YPP more then any other game I have played.

Scorchien

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Vardahoth

We get it. You like carebear games like WoW. There are already millions of games out like this already. Why you here on the forums and not playing them?

You don't get it.

WOW's PVP was as casual as any MMORPG. It was an RPG, so it had vertical progression, so it had bad PVP.  (The only exception was tourney play where all players got maxed gear, but those were one-off sort of things and so it wasn't worth getting into WOW PVP for it.)

If you like MMORPG PVP, then your preferred PVP is just as "carebear" casual as any.  If it's winnable by shallow or non-skill factors (like population or progression) then it's casual PVP.

I'm on the forums because I'm at work working and doing something in between compiles.  I do play pure PVP games in my free time though (BF4, TF2, LoL, HotS, etc.)

The OP asked for a discussion about MMORPG PvP ... not FPS , Not MOBA..... so those are pointless here

 

Helleri

Originally posted by lebros1989
Runescape classic. THE ORIGINAL. Not the 2007 graphic updated shit. Wilderness increasing the level difference of combat engagements, locked into 3 swings, losing EVERYTHING if you had a skull or only keeping 3 items if you had no skull. That shit got me shaking in my seat.

Same for me. But The wilderness was mothered by necessity. It didn't exist in the earliest days of the game. And, how well it turned out was an example of getting it right the first time mixed with a little luck. Before that it was open world pvp. There was a button that could be toggled. Clicked off was non-pk (non player killing = cannot be attacked or attack anyone). Clicked on it was pk (could attack and be attacked by any one). And before wilderness was installed that was a problem for two reasons:

 

1) The toggle button started on non-pk. Something that wasn't made apparent to players is that you could only change it 3 times. So, many players got stuck on pk before it became well known. There were safe zones of course. The part of Lumbridge (the newb town) that is today encircled by blue banners marks the biggest one. And, besides that banks were also safe. But there was only one server then. And, this meant many players fought to control territory (defined by valuable resources like mining camps).

 

[Note: Incidentally this why the first clans formed and why they are called clans in Runescape and not guilds (because they were smaller looser associations then a guild with no in-game support for running them at the time].

 

2) In pk mode...anyone could attack anyone. A level 40 could attack a level 3. And with no level restrictions (on any gear, not just on player killing), a level 3 with the bank roll could wield and wear the best armor and weapon (rune long sword at the time) in the game. So it was very chaotic

 

The advent of the wilderness came with level restrictions on gear. The wilderness was an area the size of the existing game world (at the time) that was added onto the far northern limits of the world. A baron land with scorched earth, dead trees, undead creatures, and lava instead of rivers and lakes. And it graduated in level as on went further north into it. at level 1 wilderness (just after it's border). A player could attack another player or be attacked by another player who was within 1 level of them. But, go as deep as the northern most limits (level 40). And, a level 60 could own a level 20. Likewise a group of level 20's could gang up on a level 60. Add in a rock, paper, scissors like trump system. As well as easy interface and simple mechanics. And RSC PvP was really good and the majority focus of the game back then.

 

[Note: I realize the person I am responding to likely knows most if not all of this. I wrote it out for the benefit of those who don't and want to know what about the games pvp made it so good].

RelytDnegel

Originally posted by Helleri

Originally posted by lebros1989
Runescape classic. THE ORIGINAL. Not the 2007 graphic updated shit. Wilderness increasing the level difference of combat engagements, locked into 3 swings, losing EVERYTHING if you had a skull or only keeping 3 items if you had no skull. That shit got me shaking in my seat.

Same for me. But The wilderness was mothered by necessity. It didn't exist in the earliest days of the game. And, how well it turned out was an example of getting it right the first time mixed with a little luck. Before that it was open world pvp. There was a button that could be toggled. Clicked off was non-pk (non player killing = cannot be attacked or attack anyone). Clicked on it was pk (could attack and be attacked by any one). And before wilderness was installed that was a problem for two reasons:

 

1) The toggle button started on non-pk. Something that wasn't made apparent to players is that you could only change it 3 times. So, many players got stuck on pk before it became well known. There were safe zones of course. The part of Lumbridge (the newb town) that is today encircled by blue banners marks the biggest one. And, besides that banks were also safe. But there was only one server then. And, this meant many players fought to control territory (defined by valuable resources like mining camps).

 

[Note: Incidentally this why the first clans formed and why they are called clans in Runescape and not guilds (because they were smaller looser associations then a guild with no in-game support for running them at the time].

 

2) In pk mode...anyone could attack anyone. A level 40 could attack a level 3. And with no level restrictions (on any gear, not just on player killing), a level 3 with the bank roll could wield and wear the best armor and weapon (rune long sword at the time) in the game. So it was very chaotic

 

The advent of the wilderness came with level restrictions on gear. The wilderness was an area the size of the existing game world (at the time) that was added onto the far northern limits of the world. A baron land with scorched earth, dead trees, undead creatures, and lava instead of rivers and lakes. And it graduated in level as on went further north into it. at level 1 wilderness (just after it's border). A player could attack another player or be attacked by another player who was within 1 level of them. But, go as deep as the northern most limits (level 40). And, a level 60 could own a level 20. Likewise a group of level 20's could gang up on a level 60. Add in a rock, paper, scissors like trump system. As well as easy interface and simple mechanics. And RSC PvP was really good and the majority focus of the game back then.

 

[Note: I realize the person I am responding to likely knows most if not all of this. I wrote it out for the benefit of those who don't and want to know what about the games pvp made it so good].

The main thing that killed PvP for me in Runescape (I like most played a lot once upon a time) was the insane amounts food could heal for. I mean food could out heal any dps in a 1v1 situation and it just kind of came down to people chomping away on food and then running when they were close to being out. I just never really understood the mechanic and kind of made it pointless for me.

kenpokiller

Both were great. RSC was brutal.

I liked hybridding a lot in RS2. Escaping was perhaps a bit too easy but "Share I TBed" is something I jokingly say to this day xD. So many more builds and setups were possible in the new system.

RS3 is a joke. & I did a lot of betatesting for their combat system, they ruined what little skill they put into it. xD

0ppression

I voted for DAoC from the list but I would give a shout out for Neverwinter Nights pvp from AOL a long long time ago.

Dullahan

EQ was my favorite PvP MMO of all time. Classes were balanced by their usefulness rather than attempting to give everyone equal pve or healing. Classes were therefore unique, and geared towards grouping (MMOrpg) much like Crowfall talks about doing.

Beyond the PvP mechanical aspect, EQ1 simply had something worth fighting over. All content was contested, so you could actually fight over mobs, rares, dungeons and raid and quest mobs. Due to a lack of this sort of thing in all other "PvP" MMOs, they've been a bore.

Ice-Queen

Pre-ToA Expansion Dark Age of Camelot was the best pvp game I have ever played.

KenFisher

Originally posted by 0ppression
I voted for DAoC from the list but I would give a shout out for Neverwinter Nights pvp from AOL a long long time ago.

 

I found video of the old NWN !!!  

 

I haven't watched it yet, downloading now.  

 

Amjoco

My family and I played UOs PvPvP (PhonevPlayervPlayer). We had dial up back then and weren't real tech savvy. Every time the phone would ring we would lose connection. Ah the good old days!

danwest58

When I was 18 UO PVP was great.  I loved killing someone and taking their stuff.  It had me shaking and stressed every time I fought however it was fun.

 

Today if I had that combat I would Say F*CK it and quit the game.  I dont have the time or the will to do that shit ever again.  UO style PVP should be left in the past with Player looting and all that.  

Axehilt

Originally posted by Scorchien

 You know universally what they are about , they are about havin fuggin fun , instead of poo pooin another thread with useless drivel just stay out of it or contribute to what the op asked ... 

It's not useless drivel. The OP is asking about PVP design. It's critical for a PVP designer to understand that casual PVP is objectively less popular compared with pure PVP genres (pure meaning there are no significant non-skill factors; examples include most FPS, RTS, fighting, and MOBA games.) 

Axehilt

Originally posted by Scorchien

The OP asked for a discussion about MMORPG PvP ... not FPS , Not MOBA..... so those are pointless here

Other genres provide a large pool of accumulated knowledge behind exceptional PVP design.  Knowledge is neither pointless or useless. Don't ignore it.

Righteous_Rock

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magestorm

 

Mark Jacobs , Rob Denton, Matt Firor ... nuff said