With the estimated desired refund rate at around 25% according to forum polls, and no refund option offered....along with the fact that technically speaking they are only required to refund the original KS backers if no product is given. The only other option for their other 750k backers.....(Just a guess, I know there's alot of them though ), is a Class Action Lawsuit to get their money back.
With all the recent controversy...is there one on the horizon. And if one was to take place, do you think it would sink the project? I am thinking it's a definite yes.....
Yes. They are coming in all sides from the government through 2 institutions + pissed of backers.
Yes. There are huge chances for all them, because the amount of proof of CIG acting in bad faith on business is big. (Yes, they are making a game. But a cost of deceiving people due baits, and the refusing them to give their money back when breaking advertised promises).
No. Their TOS has no value at thisp point. They screwed that themselves. They can try to use it (as have been doing) to deceive fanboys or customers that do not inform themselves about their rights, but not judges. It does not matter when people sign a TOS and then, the company broke the deal from their side.
Yes. It will sink the company entirely. Not exactly the class law suit. But the actions from gov authorities in their investigation.
The only fact of a lawsuit been opened, is already a huge damage for the image of CIG. Such headlines is their end, basically.
P.S.; It has a chance of their business not going to his doom, if Roberts and CIG changed totally their approach/behavior. But you will see a lot of changes regarding what they have been doing. But Game Industry is dirty. If you put a gov to check, they will find dirty stuff. It would be a surprise if they do not.
Although I am a backer of SC, I have not been following very much lately. However I think this issue of delivery of services based on a KS is an interesting one. In another KS project I'm following there are similar issues, and I have this question:
if if a developer runs a Kickstarter and promises to deliver an MMO, but the number of subscribers never breaks 600, and the developer themselves had boasted that the game was being developed in anticipation of about 50k subscribers, would that constitute a broken obligation?
If's are not important. What is important is what was stated in their advertising. There is no law specific for crowd-funding to make it more "ok" to make changes. If that was the case, then, they would be free to make changes. But as theses laws do not exist, they fall into the usual consumer rules:
The Federal Trade Commission makes and enforces rules to protect consumers from unfair or deceptive business practices, and its consumer protection principles apply to crowdfunding sites in the same way they apply to things like catalogs, direct mail and TV commercials, according to Helen Wong, an attorney with the FTC’s Bureau of Consumer Protection. Sellers can’t make deceptive representations, and they have to fulfill promises they’ve made to consumers, for starters.
All the posturing and threats of legal action and inept quoting of various snippets of irrelevant (but important-sounding) legalese is very amusing. It's also a familiar and comfortable part of the life-cycle of almost every MMO I've ever played.
Sooner or later someone will threaten legal action. Nobody ever goes through with it, but it's a forum favourite. I guess it makes some people feel awfully important, perhaps they feel it gives their internet persona more gravitas if they can make these serious threats...
Let's face it, no sane lawyer will touch this. If they do, it will immediately end all MMO development in the US, because it will mean that no MMO can ever deviate from the original design documents. Ever. It will also mean that any development delays can be punished via legal action, and I can't recall an MMO that had no delays whatsoever during development.
Originally posted by FrodoFragins The Kickstarter funders probably have a case due to the utter failure to meet the timelines promised. As far as the funding separate from Kickstarter, I have no clue.
I'll go with this, hence the repayment of a lone someone while saying there is no refunds to anyone else.
All the posturing and threats of legal action and inept quoting of various snippets of irrelevant (but important-sounding) legalese is very amusing. It's also a familiar and comfortable part of the life-cycle of almost every MMO I've ever played.
Sooner or later someone will threaten legal action. Nobody ever goes through with it, but it's a forum favourite. I guess it makes some people feel awfully important, perhaps they feel it gives their internet persona more gravitas if they can make these serious threats...
Let's face it, no sane lawyer will touch this. If they do, it will immediately end all MMO development in the US, because it will mean that no MMO can ever deviate from the original design documents. Ever. It will also mean that any development delays can be punished via legal action, and I can't recall an MMO that had no delays whatsoever during development.
Just stop with the lawsuit BS.
Disagree, it means that a company will have to use it's own capital instead of $85 million in "player funded freebees" while missing it's own November 2014 delivery date.
Edit:
Which is what the issue really is, accountability.
With the estimated desired refund rate at around 30%-35% according to forum polls, and no refund option offered.... **snip**
Thou should not believe someones propaganda **cough cough won't mention names, or IT is being summoned ** with respect to polls on the RSI forum. There IS no desired refund rate of 35 %.
with the question "Would you like there to be a publically available refund process now, given this latest development?" and out of the 1173 participants 25.15 % voted YES and 74.85 % voted NO.
The result from this poll was then intentionally used wrong to imply that 30-35 % of the backers wanted a refund.
About the OP question: I think NO. In my opinion as long as CIG is working on the game (which can easily be verified) a lawsuit will have little chance in court at this point. Especially as one of the owners of CIG is a lawyer. Delays are normal in the video gaming industry (its even mentioned in the SC TOS that every backer signed) ... and so are flame wars.
There is a reason why a company would not disclose this information.
Yes. The reason is : CIG is a private company not listed on any stock exchange.
Frontier would NOT disclose their financial data voluntarily - its A LOT OF WORK (many man weeks) to generate that data, report and figures. But they have to, because they are listed on the London stock exchange. Almost NO company would voluntarily saddle themselves with such a large amount of work unless they have to by law.
Personally i hope CIG does not waste employee time on generating a 60 page financial leaflet that is not required by law (but only "demanded" by a loudmouth who is a proven internet scourge and lousy developer that is feuding with Chris Roberts since the 90ies).
I rather have CIG use that employee time (man weeks !) to work on the game itself.
Have fun
We already know what you would do personally. You have made it perfectly clear that no matter what CIG and, by extension, Chris Robert's does you will worship him, support him, and follow him to the end. There are about 3 or 4 of you like that on these forums and no doubt legions more on the RSI forums. [mod edit]
Yeah, we should instead follow and support Derek Smart. Let's all support him by signing up and playing LoD. If Derek Smart hits half his promises it'll be almost as good as Alganon.
Originally posted by ceratop001 I have a two degrees in Computer Science. I don't have a clue how the law works so I can't give an accurate depiction of how this will turn out. My gut feeling tells me someone is going to jail. It's just a feeling I have and I could be very wrong. I hope I am wrong but this just smells bad. Reminds me on the Enron scandal for some weird reason lol.
I am a Comp Sci and BA and i have to fully agree with you. If i look at the transparency of Elite Dangerous (Financial Report) and the humble salary they pay themselves i am impressed.
I wish CIG would produce a report like this and be accountable. I am pretty sure though that with the salary CR is paying himself and his brother it would cause a huge shit storm from the backers.
There is a reason why a company would not disclose this information.
The difference is Elite Dangerous HAS to be transparent because they are a public company. SC is a private company so they are not required to be transparent.
As far as a class action lawsuit, that would only be able to happen if the company announced it was unable to meet its goals or not be able to deliver on something they promised. Otherwise, unless they run out of money no lawsuit would hold up right now. In the end (depending on how the company is registered) they could just declare bankruptcy and no one would get anything anyways.
There might be a class action lawsuit, but thats because frivolous class action lawsuits happen all the time. There was a class action lawsuit against blockbuster for charging late fees despite signs in every store clearly stating the policy. So there is definitely precedent for people successfully suing a company because of their own ignorance, refusal to hold themselves personally accountable, or just plain greed.
Unlike Blockbuster, maybe CIS is actually doing something shady here, i don't know. But if its just general mismanagement than no, people shouldnt be entitled to refunds. I dont believe Microsoft got a refund for Brad and co squandering their Vanguard support, why should crowdfunding be any different? Again, unless of course CIS is paying themselves enormous salaries and living like royalty, which I doubt thats happening.
Ive always though kickstarter has its place, but not for MMORPGs (though Star Citizen isnt really an MMORPG). MMORPGs are just too complex with too long of a development time needed.
There might be a class action lawsuit, but thats because frivolous class action lawsuits happen all the time. There was a class action lawsuit against blockbuster for charging late fees despite signs in every store clearly stating the policy. So there is definitely precedent for people successfully suing a company because of their own ignorance, refusal to hold themselves personally accountable, or just plain greed.
Unlike Blockbuster, maybe CIS is actually doing something shady here, i don't know. But if its just general mismanagement than no, people shouldnt be entitled to refunds. I dont believe Microsoft got a refund for Brad and co squandering their Vanguard support, why should crowdfunding be any different? Again, unless of course CIS is paying themselves enormous salaries and living like royalty, which I doubt thats happening.
Ive always though kickstarter has its place, but not for MMORPGs (though Star Citizen isnt really an MMORPG). MMORPGs are just too complex with too long of a development time needed.
A team helmed by two developers that have been in the game development industry for over two decades, working on AAA games, some of which have received critical acclaim, are now running a scam or defrauding people because Derek Smart (zero acclaimed games, zero successful MMO and has never been the lead on a AAA game) presents a series of 7 demands. The most egregious of the points/demands by Derek Smart is calling out CIG for hiring the family members. I mean, Erin, who's also been in the gaming industry for over two decades, has been in a leadership role on numerous RELEASED AAA titles. Derek Smart is basically calling out CIG for hiring someone that has a FAR BETTER track record than he could ever dream of in game development.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
If people actually read the terms of service on websites and games and actually clicked "I Do NOT Accept" so many things would be better.
I call BS on this. Often, by the time you get to the ToS, you have already spent money. All saying "I do not accept" does is cancel any installation progress and/or registration process, even though the money is already gone.
The solution is having reasonable ToS, which apparently needs to be enforced by lawyers and/or state prosecutors, because companies by themselves are not responsible enough to have reasonable ToSs.
There might be a class action lawsuit, but thats because frivolous class action lawsuits happen all the time. There was a class action lawsuit against blockbuster for charging late fees despite signs in every store clearly stating the policy. So there is definitely precedent for people successfully suing a company because of their own ignorance, refusal to hold themselves personally accountable, or just plain greed.
Unlike Blockbuster, maybe CIS is actually doing something shady here, i don't know. But if its just general mismanagement than no, people shouldnt be entitled to refunds. I dont believe Microsoft got a refund for Brad and co squandering their Vanguard support, why should crowdfunding be any different? Again, unless of course CIS is paying themselves enormous salaries and living like royalty, which I doubt thats happening.
Ive always though kickstarter has its place, but not for MMORPGs (though Star Citizen isnt really an MMORPG). MMORPGs are just too complex with too long of a development time needed.
A team helmed by two developers that have been in the game development industry for over two decades, working on AAA games, some of which have received critical acclaim, are now running a scam or defrauding people because Derek Smart (zero acclaimed games, zero successful MMO and has never been the lead on a AAA game) presents a series of 7 demands. The most egregious of the points/demands by Derek Smart is calling out CIG for hiring the family members. I mean, Erin, who's also been in the gaming industry for over two decades, has been in a leadership role on numerous RELEASED AAA titles. Derek Smart is basically calling out CIG for hiring someone that has a FAR BETTER track record than he could ever dream of in game development.
Right. As I said, I doubt its a scam. And a scam would be the only legit reason for a lawsuit, but people may go for one if the game doesnt release/releases poorly because of mismanagement. And there is a decent chance mismanagement of some kind is happening here but we wont know for sure until at least a year or two from now.
Truthfully Star Citizen is of a genre I have no desire to play (space sim), but it is interesting to watch this all unfold.
If people are stupid enough to give money to something they know nothing about then why should the law bail them out?......This could happen 1000000 times and gamers would still do the exact thing again and again....Too many consumers in this industry never learn their lesson and they never will.
What would be the reasons for the Class Action Lawsuit?
They are making the game, already delivered working modules to backers with alpha/beta access and are explaining their progress every months and why they are currently having delays for other modules. Since when is delay in production a reasons for a Class Action Lawsuit?
Quit clouding up our witch hunt with facts damn it!!!
What would be the reasons for the Class Action Lawsuit?
They are making the game, already delivered working modules to backers with alpha/beta access and are explaining their progress every months and why they are currently having delays for other modules. Since when is delay in production a reasons for a Class Action Lawsuit?
Quit clouding up our witch hunt with facts damn it!!!
I know. We really need to put an end to fanbois and their facts about Star Citizen, including facts that you can use to immediately dismiss the rant by Derek Smart.
That doesn't make for a sensational, drama filled, entertainment fix of MMO failure. While Derek Smart misses out on a competitor burning due to his obviously, and seemingly admitted, entertainment piece.
Originally posted by Phry At the moment, probably not much chance of a law suit happening, i think realistically we'd have to see 2016 in without further progress being made before even start thinking about lawsuits.
Basically this... the way folks act you'd think this game was in development for the greater part of the last 10 years. It's a little over 2 and half years into it's full development, that's hardly enough time to build one of the largest games ever created. even 2016 is pushing it.
Where is everyone getting the notion this game should be out already?
Because people have the idea that if a game hasn't launched within a year or so of them first hearing about it, it must be vaporware. Which is a problem, with Kickstarter now meaning that people hear about some games rather earlier in the development cycle than before.
The only thing that is a bit grey right now is how this type of donation will be take care of... You are not by the strict letter of the law a customer... You have not bought a product or service per se. You have donated and as a thank you from the company you get some perks.
Now we all know that is just if we go by the letter... Anyone who has donated after the KS campaign is in every other aspect a customer. But i would be interested in seeing how the court will deal with such a fallout. Especially as it is going to be hard to prove intent to commit fraud.
Now i still think the real s-storm will come once the game launches and people realize that that ship they took out a second mortage for... Will be bought with 3-4 months of grinding.
There is a reason why a company would not disclose this information.
Yes. The reason is : CIG is a private company not listed on any stock exchange.
Frontier would NOT disclose their financial data voluntarily - its A LOT OF WORK (many man weeks) to generate that data, report and figures. But they have to, because they are listed on the London stock exchange. Almost NO company would voluntarily saddle themselves with such a large amount of work unless they have to by law.
Personally i hope CIG does not waste employee time on generating a 60 page financial leaflet that is not required by law (but only "demanded" by a loudmouth who is a proven internet scourge and lousy developer that is feuding with Chris Roberts since the 90ies).
I rather have CIG use that employee time (man weeks !) to work on the game itself.
Pretty obvious you know nothing about this subject.
All the information is already available because of the accounting standards in the US (US GAAP set by the FASB) and are mandatory not voluntary. Only Disclosure is voluntary.
If they do not keep their books in order according to these standards they are in much deeper #$@! than missing a deadline for a FPS module.
It takes not much more than a few clicks to generate these reports because accounting software already has all these features readily available to produce charts, graphs and even forecasts.
It would take them less than a day to show the backers where all the money is going and it would take the wind out of the sails of all of these accusations. I wonder why they don't do it. If they don't have anything to hide why not disclose the accounting?
"It's pretty simple, really. If your only intention in posting about a particular game or topic is to be negative, then yes, you should probably move on. Voicing a negative opinion is fine, continually doing so on the same game is basically just trolling." - Michael Bitton Community Manager, MMORPG.com
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" - MrSnuffles's law
"I am jumping in here a bit without knowing exactly what you all or talking about." - SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Phry At the moment, probably not much chance of a law suit happening, i think realistically we'd have to see 2016 in without further progress being made before even start thinking about lawsuits.
Basically this... the way folks act you'd think this game was in development for the greater part of the last 10 years. It's a little over 2 and half years into it's full development, that's hardly enough time to build one of the largest games ever created. even 2016 is pushing it.
Where is everyone getting the notion this game should be out already?
Because people have the idea that if a game hasn't launched within a year or so of them first hearing about it, it must be vaporware. Which is a problem, with Kickstarter now meaning that people hear about some games rather earlier in the development cycle than before.
To be fair, SC has missed the deadlines set in the initial KS and a couple other benchmarks they set for themselves, as well as the recent announcement about that delayed module.
So, it is a legitimate question to ask.
As to a lawsuit, it would be much more likely that a State consumer protection agency, of some type, would file an eventually lawsuit of some kind, on behalf of the "wronged customers" than any straight vanilla class action lawsuit by the customers themselves.
Originally posted by Phry At the moment, probably not much chance of a law suit happening, i think realistically we'd have to see 2016 in without further progress being made before even start thinking about lawsuits.
Basically this... the way folks act you'd think this game was in development for the greater part of the last 10 years. It's a little over 2 and half years into it's full development, that's hardly enough time to build one of the largest games ever created. even 2016 is pushing it.
Where is everyone getting the notion this game should be out already?
Because people have the idea that if a game hasn't launched within a year or so of them first hearing about it, it must be vaporware. Which is a problem, with Kickstarter now meaning that people hear about some games rather earlier in the development cycle than before.
No, because after 3 years they have nothing to show for.
47 Ships have been sold to customers
300 staff including externals
3 locations worldwide
$85 million USD Budget
3 years development (~50% of a industry standard AAA title)
What we seen so far is an Alpha Test Bed called Arena Commander that is below AAA standards. A Dogfight module that can't even handle 8 vs. 8 and a Hangar to showcase a couple ships.
"It's pretty simple, really. If your only intention in posting about a particular game or topic is to be negative, then yes, you should probably move on. Voicing a negative opinion is fine, continually doing so on the same game is basically just trolling." - Michael Bitton Community Manager, MMORPG.com
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" - MrSnuffles's law
"I am jumping in here a bit without knowing exactly what you all or talking about." - SEANMCAD
Maybe the reason CR had to crowd fund this game is because no publisher wanted to fund it given his track record?
I genuinely believe that CR thought he could deliver the Kickstarter version of the game. I think he then got hugely carried away once he realised how much money people were willing to throw his way.
I don't think he is a con man at all, but I do believe he and the SC team are now way out of their depth and struggling badly. Meanwhile, Frontier is doing a great job of building a platform that they can really flesh out into the complete universe that SC aspired to be. By the time SC arrives E:D may be well ahead.
I think CR should open up refunds and scale the game back to the original vision, and deliver SOMETHING rather than continue to shoot at unrealistic targets. Trouble is, that won't happen as he is playing (and burning) other people's money in a model that leaves him with little or no accountability to deliver anything.
He will carry on for a while, and eventually stomp off in a huff at the world that didn't 'get him' or understand his 'vision' leaving others to pick up the pieces.
I would love there to be a game as described by the plans for SC, and if it ever arrives I will buy it for sure. I just think that CR has no 'skin in the game' to make it good or deliver, and that is probably the most worrying part and why I never backed it.
Some people have dropped thousands of dollars on virtual ships... I'm guessing they will be CIGs main problem at some point in the future. If they start refunding the Space Whales you know the game is up.
Oh man thanks for this post it just opened my eyes to the industry....
I bought Blizzard/Activision stocks to help fund "Titan" and they cancelled it.... man I need to sue the crap out of them. Breach of contract right? Hey wait anyone have the TOS on the stock purchases. I think I read somewhere they have to give me everything I think they should have delivered right?
I know not everyone on here are from the US, but a good chunk of you are, and it appalls me that you don't know the basic fundamentals of your own capitalistic economy.
Oh man thanks for this post it just opened my eyes to the industry....
I bought Blizzard/Activision stocks to help fund "Titan" and they cancelled it.... man I need to sue the crap out of them. Breach of contract right? Hey wait anyone have the TOS on the stock purchases. I think I read somewhere they have to give me everything I think they should have delivered right?
I know not everyone on here are from the US, but a good chunk of you are, and it appalls me that you don't know the basic fundamentals of your own capitalistic economy.
Invest at your own risk and Buyer Beware
See, this is where people think they are "investing" when they buy into a crowdfunded effort, when all they are doing is "donating". When you give money to SC/CIG, they do not issue you stock, a profit sharing agreement, a bond or any other financial instrument. Just some promises to give you some stuff, maybe, eventually when and if a game releases.
To answer your not quite question, companies can be sued by investors when they do not make reasonable decisions. In legal parlance, it is "breach of fiduciary responsibility", which means that a company breached their duty to the stockholder by doing one or more things that hurt the value of the company (and should have known better) and the stockholders' financial interest.
But that is not what is happening here, so there can not be an "investor lawsuit" because none of the people that backed this game or bought ships that don't exist, are actually investors (so you are completely wrong).
That said, people most likely are "customers" in the eyes of the law (or close enough to take it to court), and as such certain consumer protection rights might and probably do apply. (We have seen various US State gov'ts starting to pay attention to crowdfunded efforts and take on the "scammers".)
So, even tho you were trying to be snarky, you were almost right, but for the wrong reason.
WRONG. 32 % (24 out of 76). Most likely goes above 50 % after GamesCom in 2 week (Multi crew ship introduction)
No Mining
True
No Trading
True
No Missions
True - soon to come with Social Module.
No Stations
Wrong. Golden Horizon Station and Battle Arena - see videos.
No Planets
Wrong. Plenty of information especially on the Arc Corp landing zone which is used for the upcoming Social Module. Plenty more information on other landing zones available e.g. Terra or Nyx.
No Galaxy
Wrong. Plenty of information on Planets and Stargate Network is available. Also the map.
No FPS
Wrong. See available videos. The playable FPS module is delayed by a few weeks because of a necessary improvement in the netcode, but there is PLENTY of info on all aspects of the FPS module.
No Single Player
True. See upcoming information at GamesCom in 2 weeks.
Comments
Yes. They are coming in all sides from the government through 2 institutions + pissed of backers.
Yes. There are huge chances for all them, because the amount of proof of CIG acting in bad faith on business is big. (Yes, they are making a game. But a cost of deceiving people due baits, and the refusing them to give their money back when breaking advertised promises).
No. Their TOS has no value at thisp point. They screwed that themselves. They can try to use it (as have been doing) to deceive fanboys or customers that do not inform themselves about their rights, but not judges. It does not matter when people sign a TOS and then, the company broke the deal from their side.
Yes. It will sink the company entirely. Not exactly the class law suit. But the actions from gov authorities in their investigation.
The only fact of a lawsuit been opened, is already a huge damage for the image of CIG. Such headlines is their end, basically.
P.S.; It has a chance of their business not going to his doom, if Roberts and CIG changed totally their approach/behavior. But you will see a lot of changes regarding what they have been doing. But Game Industry is dirty. If you put a gov to check, they will find dirty stuff. It would be a surprise if they do not.
If's are not important. What is important is what was stated in their advertising. There is no law specific for crowd-funding to make it more "ok" to make changes. If that was the case, then, they would be free to make changes. But as theses laws do not exist, they fall into the usual consumer rules:
The Federal Trade Commission makes and enforces rules to protect consumers from unfair or deceptive business practices, and its consumer protection principles apply to crowdfunding sites in the same way they apply to things like catalogs, direct mail and TV commercials, according to Helen Wong, an attorney with the FTC’s Bureau of Consumer Protection. Sellers can’t make deceptive representations, and they have to fulfill promises they’ve made to consumers, for starters.
All the posturing and threats of legal action and inept quoting of various snippets of irrelevant (but important-sounding) legalese is very amusing. It's also a familiar and comfortable part of the life-cycle of almost every MMO I've ever played.
Sooner or later someone will threaten legal action. Nobody ever goes through with it, but it's a forum favourite. I guess it makes some people feel awfully important, perhaps they feel it gives their internet persona more gravitas if they can make these serious threats...
Let's face it, no sane lawyer will touch this. If they do, it will immediately end all MMO development in the US, because it will mean that no MMO can ever deviate from the original design documents. Ever. It will also mean that any development delays can be punished via legal action, and I can't recall an MMO that had no delays whatsoever during development.
Just stop with the lawsuit BS.
I'll go with this, hence the repayment of a lone someone while saying there is no refunds to anyone else.
Disagree, it means that a company will have to use it's own capital instead of $85 million in "player funded freebees" while missing it's own November 2014 delivery date.
Edit:
Which is what the issue really is, accountability.
Please don't insert reality and use logic here.
Yeah, we should instead follow and support Derek Smart. Let's all support him by signing up and playing LoD. If Derek Smart hits half his promises it'll be almost as good as Alganon.
The difference is Elite Dangerous HAS to be transparent because they are a public company. SC is a private company so they are not required to be transparent.
As far as a class action lawsuit, that would only be able to happen if the company announced it was unable to meet its goals or not be able to deliver on something they promised. Otherwise, unless they run out of money no lawsuit would hold up right now. In the end (depending on how the company is registered) they could just declare bankruptcy and no one would get anything anyways.
There might be a class action lawsuit, but thats because frivolous class action lawsuits happen all the time. There was a class action lawsuit against blockbuster for charging late fees despite signs in every store clearly stating the policy. So there is definitely precedent for people successfully suing a company because of their own ignorance, refusal to hold themselves personally accountable, or just plain greed.
Unlike Blockbuster, maybe CIS is actually doing something shady here, i don't know. But if its just general mismanagement than no, people shouldnt be entitled to refunds. I dont believe Microsoft got a refund for Brad and co squandering their Vanguard support, why should crowdfunding be any different? Again, unless of course CIS is paying themselves enormous salaries and living like royalty, which I doubt thats happening.
Ive always though kickstarter has its place, but not for MMORPGs (though Star Citizen isnt really an MMORPG). MMORPGs are just too complex with too long of a development time needed.
A team helmed by two developers that have been in the game development industry for over two decades, working on AAA games, some of which have received critical acclaim, are now running a scam or defrauding people because Derek Smart (zero acclaimed games, zero successful MMO and has never been the lead on a AAA game) presents a series of 7 demands. The most egregious of the points/demands by Derek Smart is calling out CIG for hiring the family members. I mean, Erin, who's also been in the gaming industry for over two decades, has been in a leadership role on numerous RELEASED AAA titles. Derek Smart is basically calling out CIG for hiring someone that has a FAR BETTER track record than he could ever dream of in game development.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
I call BS on this. Often, by the time you get to the ToS, you have already spent money. All saying "I do not accept" does is cancel any installation progress and/or registration process, even though the money is already gone.
The solution is having reasonable ToS, which apparently needs to be enforced by lawyers and/or state prosecutors, because companies by themselves are not responsible enough to have reasonable ToSs.
Right. As I said, I doubt its a scam. And a scam would be the only legit reason for a lawsuit, but people may go for one if the game doesnt release/releases poorly because of mismanagement. And there is a decent chance mismanagement of some kind is happening here but we wont know for sure until at least a year or two from now.
Truthfully Star Citizen is of a genre I have no desire to play (space sim), but it is interesting to watch this all unfold.
Quit clouding up our witch hunt with facts damn it!!!
I know. We really need to put an end to fanbois and their facts about Star Citizen, including facts that you can use to immediately dismiss the rant by Derek Smart.
That doesn't make for a sensational, drama filled, entertainment fix of MMO failure. While Derek Smart misses out on a competitor burning due to his obviously, and seemingly admitted, entertainment piece.
Because people have the idea that if a game hasn't launched within a year or so of them first hearing about it, it must be vaporware. Which is a problem, with Kickstarter now meaning that people hear about some games rather earlier in the development cycle than before.
The only thing that is a bit grey right now is how this type of donation will be take care of... You are not by the strict letter of the law a customer... You have not bought a product or service per se. You have donated and as a thank you from the company you get some perks.
Now we all know that is just if we go by the letter... Anyone who has donated after the KS campaign is in every other aspect a customer. But i would be interested in seeing how the court will deal with such a fallout. Especially as it is going to be hard to prove intent to commit fraud.
Now i still think the real s-storm will come once the game launches and people realize that that ship they took out a second mortage for... Will be bought with 3-4 months of grinding.
That will be hilarious...
This have been a good conversation
Pretty obvious you know nothing about this subject.
All the information is already available because of the accounting standards in the US (US GAAP set by the FASB) and are mandatory not voluntary. Only Disclosure is voluntary.
If they do not keep their books in order according to these standards they are in much deeper #$@! than missing a deadline for a FPS module.
It takes not much more than a few clicks to generate these reports because accounting software already has all these features readily available to produce charts, graphs and even forecasts.
It would take them less than a day to show the backers where all the money is going and it would take the wind out of the sails of all of these accusations. I wonder why they don't do it. If they don't have anything to hide why not disclose the accounting?
Have faith!
"It's pretty simple, really. If your only intention in posting about a particular game or topic is to be negative, then yes, you should probably move on. Voicing a negative opinion is fine, continually doing so on the same game is basically just trolling."
- Michael Bitton
Community Manager, MMORPG.com
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" - MrSnuffles's law
"I am jumping in here a bit without knowing exactly what you all or talking about."
- SEANMCAD
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To be fair, SC has missed the deadlines set in the initial KS and a couple other benchmarks they set for themselves, as well as the recent announcement about that delayed module.
So, it is a legitimate question to ask.
As to a lawsuit, it would be much more likely that a State consumer protection agency, of some type, would file an eventually lawsuit of some kind, on behalf of the "wronged customers" than any straight vanilla class action lawsuit by the customers themselves.
No, because after 3 years they have nothing to show for.
"It's pretty simple, really. If your only intention in posting about a particular game or topic is to be negative, then yes, you should probably move on. Voicing a negative opinion is fine, continually doing so on the same game is basically just trolling."
- Michael Bitton
Community Manager, MMORPG.com
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" - MrSnuffles's law
"I am jumping in here a bit without knowing exactly what you all or talking about."
- SEANMCAD
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I genuinely believe that CR thought he could deliver the Kickstarter version of the game. I think he then got hugely carried away once he realised how much money people were willing to throw his way.
I don't think he is a con man at all, but I do believe he and the SC team are now way out of their depth and struggling badly. Meanwhile, Frontier is doing a great job of building a platform that they can really flesh out into the complete universe that SC aspired to be. By the time SC arrives E:D may be well ahead.
I think CR should open up refunds and scale the game back to the original vision, and deliver SOMETHING rather than continue to shoot at unrealistic targets. Trouble is, that won't happen as he is playing (and burning) other people's money in a model that leaves him with little or no accountability to deliver anything.
He will carry on for a while, and eventually stomp off in a huff at the world that didn't 'get him' or understand his 'vision' leaving others to pick up the pieces.
I would love there to be a game as described by the plans for SC, and if it ever arrives I will buy it for sure. I just think that CR has no 'skin in the game' to make it good or deliver, and that is probably the most worrying part and why I never backed it.
Some people have dropped thousands of dollars on virtual ships... I'm guessing they will be CIGs main problem at some point in the future. If they start refunding the Space Whales you know the game is up.
Oh man thanks for this post it just opened my eyes to the industry....
I bought Blizzard/Activision stocks to help fund "Titan" and they cancelled it.... man I need to sue the crap out of them. Breach of contract right? Hey wait anyone have the TOS on the stock purchases. I think I read somewhere they have to give me everything I think they should have delivered right?
I know not everyone on here are from the US, but a good chunk of you are, and it appalls me that you don't know the basic fundamentals of your own capitalistic economy.
Invest at your own risk and Buyer Beware
See, this is where people think they are "investing" when they buy into a crowdfunded effort, when all they are doing is "donating". When you give money to SC/CIG, they do not issue you stock, a profit sharing agreement, a bond or any other financial instrument. Just some promises to give you some stuff, maybe, eventually when and if a game releases.
To answer your not quite question, companies can be sued by investors when they do not make reasonable decisions. In legal parlance, it is "breach of fiduciary responsibility", which means that a company breached their duty to the stockholder by doing one or more things that hurt the value of the company (and should have known better) and the stockholders' financial interest.
But that is not what is happening here, so there can not be an "investor lawsuit" because none of the people that backed this game or bought ships that don't exist, are actually investors (so you are completely wrong).
That said, people most likely are "customers" in the eyes of the law (or close enough to take it to court), and as such certain consumer protection rights might and probably do apply. (We have seen various US State gov'ts starting to pay attention to crowdfunded efforts and take on the "scammers".)
So, even tho you were trying to be snarky, you were almost right, but for the wrong reason.