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ArtificeVenatus
Member UncommonPosts: 1,236
As the original poster, I am asking that a Moderator please close this thread...
Given it has become painfully obvious that an intelligent conversation can not yet be had surrounding this subject in the public forums, there is no need nor use in it's continuing.
This thread should have been a matter of players and developers coming together on the subject of P2W as was defined, and given the conditions established in the OP.
Such definitions and conditions should have been taken into consideration, toward the purpose of establishing further methods to reduce P2W, while still recognizing that companies also need to create revenue.
This should have been taken as an opportunity toward compromises and understandings, such that may have resulted in mutual agreements, even with some points of disagreement having been expected.
This thread is not having that effect.
So again, as the original poster, I am asking that a Moderator please close this thread...
Thank you.
PS. Any serious discussion involving the P2W Reduction Methods, whether it be serious questions and-or points/systems missed given the definitions (of which can be found in my "P2W Reduction Methods" blog through my signature) and conditions (given specifically a F2P MMORPG with Cash Shop through which are sold tradeable items), feel free to private message me. As far as an optional subscription involved, that can be disregarded for the purpose of this exercise. Thank you.
Comments
Simpler yet, a choice of A, B, or C:
A. NO cash shop
B. Only cosmetics in cash shop
C. Only cosmetics and a way to buy gametime with ingame gold in cash shop.
Methods:
Pay 2 Grind - content behind paywall, certain amount free daily. There is no such thing as a 'hardcore' freebie player. Completely impossible. All the 'winners' are payers.
Linear growth pricing - 20 dungeon runs* cost 100 'diamonds' - Next 20 dungeon runs costs 200 - and so on. (price resets daily) Cuts way down on the whales. No way to brute force it with a credit card, the numbers are absurd.
Limited availability of premium items - Purchase currency, hope you get lucky and vendor stocks what you want. Cuts down on the whales since they can't brute force the game with a credit card. There is discrete no item shop. Vendors sell both gold currency items and item shop currency items. Most of it in limited supply.
Bargain purchaser plan - $3.00 a month buys $35.00 worth of currency spread out over the month. If you play daily to get the bonuses, instant competitive with the whales. It works like 'Optional Sub'.
Heroes Charge does all of these. And they made enough money so far that they bought advertising on the Super Bowl. They must be doing something right. It doesn't feel P2W. Whales don't have a huge advantage. I've dropped $15 to $20 in six months or so and am quite competitive. Same with my GF.
Bottom line, spending hits a curve of diminishing return. Everyone spends. Whales get punished for not being willing to take their time leveling up.
* NOTE: dungeon run is only 4.5 minutes max. 3 rooms at 90 seconds each. VIP can 'raid' (speed run) dungeon with a ticket finishing a 4.5 minute dungeon in less than 30 seconds. Automated too. 20 runs in a few minutes WITH full loot and XP.
The fact that this conversation is happening shows that F2P will eventually result in the death of the MMORPG genre and any other community/social based game genre that it touches.
I can't believe I was ever foolish enough to look at this business model as anything less than a scourge on PC gaming.
Maybe I should have paid some coin to speed along knowledge of the topic.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Simplicity is fine for the players' end. IE - Simple to learn, difficult to master. If I were making my own mmorpg however, it is not beyond me to put in the extra effort to create something at least as close to perfection as possible, no matter how difficult doing so might seem to others. Those suggestions allow for the P2W Player Advantage to be abused without limits, so no, I would not see them as something I would want in an mmorpg I produce. ***The cash shop items are intended to be trade-/sell-able, so long as they are purchased through Unbound Cash Shop Currency.***
I would be looking to create an mmorpg that is free to play, with a subscription option (which would allow some cash shop currency per month like soe-daybreak does in Everquest, Everquest 2, as well as allow access to participate on the game forums). There would still be some further benefits to holding a subscription beyond those. Given an understanding of people in general, the only way to truly maintain an mmorpg at that point, would be through a cash shop. This is why I am seeking answers to how to limit the P2W Player Advantage, as the P2W Player Advantage kills the integrity of the game (in my opinion of course).
Placing content behind a paywall is definitely something I would not consider if I made my own mmorpg. I would be intending on the game feeling like the old times subscription mmorpgs that had no cash shops. All content would be available to all players, and all items would be available, provided the character has any required skills built that would be needed for them.
As far as limited items go, what would be in the cash shop would be in the cash shop. The only limited items would be based on rarity of items that drop off of encounters throughout the world, or rarity of materials/difficulty of crafting items.
Hmm, Heroes Charge? I will have to look into that to see for myself.
Oh yeah, I am not intending 4.5 minute dungeon runs. To me, that is not a dungeon.
Whales will have a huge advantage, just not directly within game but through 3rd party gold spammers and buying lvl capped accounts that are already decked out.
Edit: Mistook Heroes Charge with HotS
A 4.5 minute dungeon run? And you have to run them multiple times? Up to twenty times, daily? With full loot, and you think the economy can manage that? With 4/5 party members x20 epic pieces per day? This is a very narrow funnel for progression here that widens the gap instead of leveling the field.
Side scroller 2D MOBA - RPG hybrid on Android and IOS. 20,000 players per server. At least 80 servers so far.
I mention it since the monetization is not very common, and is effective without punishing low end spenders and rewarding the whales like crazy. It's not perfect, but it does take the edge off P2W by pretty much forcing pay to play.
There is no economy. Not even player trading. I'm not sure about 3rd party selling accounts. I've never seen a gold spammer since they have no way to deliver gold or diamonds.
Excess loot becomes enchanting materials. High level enchants take a couple hundred items as mats. I have somewhere around 45 heroes and can wipe out 2 months of banked materials just enchanting a half dozen of them.
Ah. Well, I am definitely intending to have player trading, as it is intended to be in a massive world. Heroes Charge looks to be a moba with battles that remind me of old Final Fantasy back on the Nintendo/Super Nintendo. The methods I am seeking to limit P2W Advantages need to be in the context of mmorpgs, consisting of thousands or more player characters within a virtual world, with very few instanced events.
I apologize, if you are referencing a mobile game I have no comment.
No trading between player (eliminate gold trading)
All item valuable through playing (pay cash shop to get it right away or play and get it)
I don't mind about P2W , i just hate the fact that i have depend on the whales to get the cash item . Because it unstable.
The price of cash items always rise all the way to the point where i can't continue grind to get them
I understand and wish you best of luck with it. If you can pull it off, you'll be one of the first.
I haven't nailed down monetization yet for RL2. I'd prefer to pick up a sponsor, maybe even something of my own, and go completely free with no item shop at all. Just ads on startup and loading screens. Maybe throw up a tip jar and beg donations like Wikipedia. :-)
Another one I've kicked around is pay by the hour, with free accounts getting 1 hour per day. 50 cents an hour even. Full game access, no item shop, just refill your time when you feel like it, or just play the free hour if you run out of pre-paid time. Sort of like those pay as you go cell phone things.
Your reply is telling of a few systems that the original post covers, to your liking by the way ;p
Trading between players is intended, as are multiple currency types, of which will all also double as materials that can be used in crafting/tradeskills.
The cash shop and in-game through playing items will each be exclusive from each other (IE - varied designs all worthy of the game's integrity, "incompatible" skill sets possibly on mounts or flying gears), but will be equal in their values whereas they will likely be tradeable outright (IE - Cash Shop bought Mount for a Tamed Mount).
The prices of cash shop items only rise due to the game companies allowing players to have too much control over the economies, which always leads to inflation (prices rising). Said game companies actually have more control over their in-game economies, than all the governments in our real world have over the economies in real life. There will be multiple systems to keep that in check, so the prices should not rise beyond what I would be able to see as a good approximate point (allowing selling and buying of cash shop with in-game currencies exchanges), while being fair all around.
Unfortunately, knowing how people in general are, donations would not cover any game-type's expense to maintain operations, from a business perspective. The per hour bit just might work, although, the actual amount per hour would have to be figured out exactly. I would also say such should be sold like phone cards at increments of $5 (10 hours at 50 cents), $10 (20 hours at 50 cents), $15 (30 hours), $20 (40 hours), etc, etc. For an mmorpg, I would actually consider that as reasonable at 10-25 cents per hour (on the basis of easily being able to sink 40 hours some weeks with the perspective of ~$15 per month subscriptions, although even $30-50 today would be expected).
That's basically what LoTRO promised, just before the large exodus of their subscription holders when they realized it was a better deal to just pay cash up front and then continue playing for free than to keep paying monthly only to lose most of it when they unsubbed. The only ones who kept their subs were those who figured they wouldn't be playing(paying) long enough for it to matter either way, especially if they had multiple characters(most shop items required payment for each character, very little covered the whole acct).
Then there are those who got in on Lifetime Subscription with VIP Benefits... of course anyone that keeps paying, whether by sub, cash shop or both works for them because it keeps the game afloat and their ability to keep playing something that they essentially stopped paying for after the first 2 1/2 years and are still getting rewarded for.
Anyway, I suppose it all depends on whether you're after traffic or a loyal following, a cash shop will weigh on that. After dabbling in a few f2p games early on and spent way more than I should have, experienced what LoTRO did, and lastly got suckered in by the archeum founder pack in AA, I won't be spending anymore money on a game unless it offers the whole package for a straight sub, the only concession would be for tradeable cosmetic items. It sounds like I may be a minority, but I wouldn't bet on it. If you want to keep subscribers, UO's formula still works today, even with their 1990's graphics.
Harness the spending power of the freeloaders. This is about money. People who spend money should have more power than people who don't spend money. You want something different? Find a way to get freeloaders to pay money.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
If the conversation was among those working with real data or making actual decisions then I'd say you're spot on.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
My first mmorpg was UO, with my second being EQ, my third being EQ2, and my fourth being Vanguard. All were subscription games without cash shops, and all were GREAT experiences at the time.
Fast forward to 2010... I ended up playing Perfect World International. In 5 years time, I likely spent over $6,000... in a "free to play" game. Although I only had the second best gears for my class, I still wrecked more than half of the best geared (and might I add, more expensive than what I had). So yeah, I do truly understand the P2W Player Advantage fully, and absolutely where you are coming from.
There are 2 things however that I see that you are overlooking.
1. A company running an mmorpg needs to make operation costs (just to maintain a game) and profits (in order to expand).
2. The P2W Player Advantage is just another player advantage that stems from real life advantages (consider the advantages of time and skill with respect to mmorpgs).
It is based on those 2 points, that I realize that P2W does not need to be killed, but tamed, restricted, limited, put on a leash. By doing so, a game world would actually be healthier than what we see in F2P mmo's today, and also healthier than what we have witnessed in the old subscription without cash shop models (consider allowing a LIMITED version of P2W allows an additional player advantaged group that would not otherwise exist).
I highly doubt LotRO had any of the bullet points from the original post covered, let alone all of them.
Those "freeloaders" as you label them, act to fill the world with people, other players, all with characters, all that your paying playerbase interact with and can have memorable experiences with. The bullet points of methods that you quoted recognizes exactly that. And thus, DOES harness the power of your so-called freeloaders.
PS. And this is not about money. It is about genuinely having numerous concepts, systems and visions intended as a product... nay, a masterpiece. Whereas money is necessary to initially create such, I would be willing to sink such amounts in without that being returned. After that, it is only about money to the extent of maintaining that work of art. Not all people have the same motivations.
Make a game good enough so people have no problems paying a sub. Then have no cash shop and let the players play on the level playing field.
Fair is fair, earn your keep, if you suck you suck, play more to get better.
ahhhh the good ol days
The problem is that in any game with PvP you can't sell something that gives even the slightly advantage in combat.
You can sell cosmetic stuff, character slots, bank space, teleportation devices, races (only well balanced ones), server transfers, kits for changing how the character looks, extra slots at the trading post and other things that have no impact in combat.
Once people get an advantage to kill people who pay less the game gets broken.
In PvE only games you can also sells stuff that gives small advantages in combat but there are few PvE only games. The balance is less important there so slight advantages doesn't matter.
Of course if max tier gear is very easy to get like in the first Guildwars game you could sell gear with stats as well, there all my character have been able to get the best gear as soon as I hit max level without any grinding but there would be little point for gear with stats in a game like that anyways.
This conversation is happening because developers already have turned into pilfering low brows over-monetizing every aspect of a game that makes it a game.
"Hey we made a free game... but for the low price of $450 you can beat the game and be better than the people who paid $100"
It's a disgusting precedent and the genre will absolutely die due to it. The fact that players now have to have conversations on how to work around the scum bag nature of MMORPG developers and publishers is VERY sad.
But hey, The United Arab Emirates and Qatar should win gold in every Olympic Sport ever because they have the oil money to buy coaches and athletes from abroad.
There's a huge Fighting Game tournament happening in a few days. I can only imagine seeing "Online Warrior defeats Daigo Umehara in Ultra Street Fighter IV at EVO - Paid $1000 For special Ryu costume that increases attack 30%".
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
But it is about money, as you stated, companies need to not only cover costs but make a profit in order to expand. As for how much you need to "profit", why do you feel a good subscription only game cannot succeed, especially if you add a cosmetic only cash shop for those who not only have the disposable income but also like to enhance their characters/mounts/environment with different skins? Surely WoW is a pretty good example of just how much you can profit from a sub only type of game, all you have to do is make it a good game.
Why make it P2W at all, why not just a good solid game that everyone can enjoy playing, to the point that they feel that a $10-20/mo sub is more than worth it? For something that could lessen the pain of p2p and essentially make the game f2p too, would be having the gold sink of being able to buy a monthly sub with in game gold(heck, give a two month free trial so players can make enough gold initially so they can continue to play for free, just to make it fair).
Hey if you want to give the game away for free, that's your right if it's your game, but don't expect whales to come clamoring to pay the way for f2p players that for the most part don't care about the world they're playing in(easy come easy go) and you see them often on the forums boasting about being f2p but then making demands that will only change the game beyond its focus or genre. They certainly don't care about those whales who actually care enough about their game to pay for it, and quite often end up being the very reason the whales get fed up and leave, vowing to never play another f2p game again.
Imo, something that spoils a game pretty quickly is when a game loses its focus and starts adding stuff that has nothing to do with its world(ie. skateboards competing with frikkin donkeys carrying a player so loaded down with a tradepack that's so heavy that the player can barely walk with it on...or bikinis mixing with longcoats and ballgowns). I dare to say that most mmorpg players want a world that immerses them in the story of the game, including all the little details, that's why I believe UO made a very bad step when they added neon tiles to the game and buried the elves in an underground tree, it just didn't fit, let alone make much sense. At least splitting into Tram and Fel fit into the whole "shards" thing.... whether you liked it or not is another topic.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
True, but they seems to be here to stay so let at least the damage be minimal. There is a huge difference between games like TERA and GW2 and games like EQ2 and Perfect world.
I rather pay my monthly fees but if a game uses a cashshop it is important that it doesn't break the balance of the game. Games that do sell raid gear and similar tend to keep their players a very short time since getting good gear tend to be the point of modern MMOs, you buy some stuff and then you don't have anything to play for which means in the long run even the publishers earn money on a less intrusive cash shop.
If some one buys gear from a cash shop then loses it via update/expac they need to own it, suck it up and drive on. If you play for gear then you'll miss out on the fun (I've learned that through my experience). If you play for fun, upgrading gear becomes a perk instead of a chore. Role players understand this because they are more involved in interaction with other players rather than grinding for gear. I've grown tired of the RNG boss loot with DKP and/or ninja looters on a weekly lock out raid/dungeon.
FireFall is a great example of a f2p cash shop done well, R5 literally gave away their game for free. It would have been an outstanding game if they didn't break to the community and drive out a hand holding version of FireFall at launch, but that's up for another debate.
It is about money. Money is the reason they are making these games.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"