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All of the games as I have highlighted in red are in fact P2W (and I am quite certain more on your list there are as well). By the way, that is what this thread is about, limiting P2W. So your comment in context is irrelevant.
As far as time limitations go... PWI is the only that I know of that is time limiting in and of itself, but that company which actually makes changes to the game itself always steals ideas from other places. The time limitations thing absolutely was an idea taken from other games found in China and possibly throughout Asia. China and possibly Asia is a bigger game market than our western market, so I can guarantee there are more that limit time than we are aware of. But the time limitations argument is absolute nonsense to begin with, as time itself is literally already limited. There are in fact only 168 hours in a week, and no chance in hell you can play any game for that entire 168 hours, as you would literally drop dead from lack of sleep.
Time does not allow for Godmode Player Advantages, Money does.
Subscriptions are not considered P2W, nor are Expansions, because those are products you purchase and allow for the integrity of the game to remain in tact.
Cash Shops in any game becomes P2W, but becomes an actual issue when games are make to nickel and dime their playerbases. P2W also becomes an issue when there is direct and-or indirect competition between players and-or groups of players.
RMT is irrelevant to the discussion by definition, as by definition RMT is considered illegal and thus for this discussion, is considered dealt with properly.
My first thought was... what if the game effectively had no level cap -- you didn't stop at L50/60/90/120/whatever. You could just keep going, but it took exponentially more XP each level.
Sure, you'd need content and grouping systems that can do something with that, but we've seen LevelSync / Sidekick / Mentor mechanics for PvE, and normalization techniques for PvP.
But with no upper limit on character level - xp boosters become an infinite cash shop sync that doesn't break your game.
Just one thought, it has it's problems, it wouldn't drop into (many) games today... but we are so used to working with a level cap, I thought it would be interesting if there were a game without one.
Yes, that is P2W. It's P2W when they're items with a gameplay effect which would've required beating a skill challenge.
And how many MMORPGs sell that type of item? Almost none.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I play TF2, ESO, TF2, LoL, and HotS. Was there a point to this request?
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
People who feel this way about costumes are an incredibly tiny minority.
How many people complain that LoL sells skins? Virtually no one.
How many people buy LoL skins? Tons.
How many people don't care at all about skins? Quite a few, maybe the majority. (Hard to tell; most of my friends have quite a few skins, but most of my friends are part of the game industry so...)
Same deal with MMORPGs. I've been around MMORPG forums a while and until this thread I have never heard a single complaint about vanity items being sold apart from the OP here.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I would count any game that sells in game gold for real cash where one could then buy in game advantages with said gold, like items with game play effects and stats and stuff... How many MMOs with cash shops sell in game gold for real money that let's you buy game play effecting items? Almost all of them.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/So you totally missed Sparkle Pony in World of Warcraft and the Monocle in EVE Online off the top of my head...
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/The biggest complaint in that Celestial Steed article is that players are lined up so deep to buy it there is an eight hour queue. The second is that he author thinks 20 USD would be better than 25 USD. And of all the things MonocleGate was about (and there were plenty), the actual monocle was the LEAST of them. It was simply an iconic example of the greater problems at the time. Googling things is fine, but researching them is better. For as long as I've been here, the majority have contended that item malls are fine as long as it's cosmetic. Maybe those more balanced folks have been driven off, but it's odd to see this sudden shift to the current argument, especial considering how baseless it is. Yes, baseless, as the scenarios being made up don't exist in the majority of MMOs.
Really, almost everyone here knows that PWI is the exception, yet Arti keeps trotting that one out as if it is indicative of the broader spectrum. The conversation goes nowhere at that point. Amaranthar takes it one step further with the textbook definition of cognitive dissonance - cursing and getting angry when confronted with a truth that he does not want to accept.
So, I'm with Axehilt in that this is the first place I've seen people take such a stance on vanity items. Then again the stance being held is based on a false premise (in-game rewards sold in the item malls), so there's also the hurdle of that, too.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Hmm, that's true. I did see those.
Still, how is that any different from complaining that some people drive nicer cars IRL? Just feels like useless, jealous whining. How can such complaints possibly be taken seriously when they don't impact gameplay?
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Really? How many times do I need to drop a list of P2W :
Vanguard was P2W before it closed.
TERA is P2W throughout, but not truly noticeable until endgame.
EVE is P2W, but it has naturally built-in P2W Reduction Methods.
ArcheAge is P2W, arguably as bad if not worse than PWI.
WoW has become P2W since it brought in those PLEX-like tokens or whatever they are called in WoW.
Wildstar also must already be P2W due to it's PLEX-like tokens.
Everquest 1 and 2 are both P2W due to their Kronos, and that at least many cash shop items are tradeable.
Neverwinter must also be P2W as it is published through Perfect World Entertainment.
Star Trek Online, again, Perfect World Entertainment.
Notice PWI is only mentioned as a comparison? Yeah, completely baseless.
And the stance is not on vanity items, it is specifically on REAL MONEY FUNNELED INTO THE GAME THROUGH VANITY ITEMS = IN-GAME WEALTH TOWARD IN-GAME ADVANTAGES.
Or is that not clear enough?
Complaints of vanity item sales go all the way back to the first generation of MMO's. If we use the Bartle Test of Gamer Psychology (1996) as a reference, we will see that in the early days of MMORPG's, it was clear that there were different types of players, with different sets of goals. Socializers value vanity items, as they represent social status. Achievers value item sets (regardless of vanity/utility) as a means to completion. Both of these see vanity sales as an undermining of their gameplay experience.
Today's games are MUCH more social than they were decades ago, and this has accounted for much of the rise of demand for vanity items. It has also increased the discontent of inequal distribution of these items based on direct sales. Heck, just look at all the outrage from founders packs or preorder bonuses that include exclusive vanity items.
I know SWTOR allows you to sell items on the cash shop in game but those games that do not allow vanity item sales in game will not give rise to the ability to sell those vanity items as a means to get in game currency. If the in game currency you can get from the sale of vanity items can only go towards a subscription currency lets say if you sell a bikini vanity item and you can only get back the subscription currency of Kronos or something then it will not give you an in game advantage since it will only pay towards a subscription. That would work no ?
I never bother about vanity items so such achievements mentioned above are of no consequence to me and therefore I have no objections to them being sold in the cash shop.
There is no countering P2W. It occurs when companies decide to go after whales. You are not meant to compete against it or the concept does not exist.
Btw P2W means progression and power can be purchased outside of game play putting someone above and beyond what a non-paying customer can ever achieve and be in direct competition with them (meaning the game isn't so solo friendly that it's power differences become meaningless). You have to prove this can happen before making such claims.
All cash shop services go against the concept of fair game play but it is taken to a whole other level when no other means to obtain a power advantage exists inside of game play alone. That is p2w.
You stay sassy!
Not true. If someone can simply buy an item, "vanity" or not, then they get game "win" for spending their money.
Some of you can put more narrow descriptions to P2W on it if you want. But you can't change that simple fact.
It's not a question of interpretation. It's not open to debate. The fact is that one player is getting something out of the game that another player cannot get (or has to play longer/harder for), by buying it.
Once upon a time....
Just getting something is not a win except to you. Again reinforcing that it is interpretation.
Yes players are interested in cosmetics.
Yes players are interested in the game being completely free and shoveling them boatloads of cosmetic content completely free of charge.
But it's never winning.
If those players want to whine about someone's purchased mount and their neighbor's luxury car, they're free to complain about capitalism. But vanity items don't have gameplay effects and don't contribute towards "winning".
Is it seriously that hard for people who care about this stuff to use a more logical term?
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Nope. The facts are the facts. Debate can only muddy the waters and interpretation doesn't change facts. Not even if some forum posters and game producers say so.
Once upon a time....
Buying an item means you win is not a fact.
How so?
For convenience I'll quote my comments in question...
"If someone can simply buy an item, "vanity" or not, then they get game "win" for spending their money.
Some of you can put more narrow descriptions to P2W on it if you want. But you can't change that simple fact.
It's not a question of interpretation. It's not open to debate. The fact is that one player is getting something out of the game that another player cannot get (or has to play longer/harder for), by buying it."
Edit: You just replied to fit this, I'll quote you here:
Once upon a time....