Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
A Moderator can Close this Thread... Thank you.
This discussion has been closed.
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Comments
Actually, I would challenge you to give 3 examples of games where you can buy best-in-slot gear from a cash shop. That's what you're suggesting, but there are absolutely no games, at least none that I'm aware of, which sell best-in-slot gear through a cash shop. I am aware of games which sell gear that might be equivalent to dungeon farm gear, but it's nothing that would require any significant amount of time to acquire through regular play or through an auction house or through crafting.
Also, you're trivializing Beatnik's experience. He already said that he didn't care about PvE or PvP gear. Then you come along an say (paraphrased) "But you have to agree that it's a bigger deal that someone is being sold a piece of gear with stats on it." He already stated quite clearly that these, so called, "fluff" items are what's most important to him in a game. Also, maybe these "fluff" items cannot be earned in the game, so no amount of effort would ever produce results. This is nothing new. I did an interview once with someone at Bean Fun US and they were having a really tough time trying to sell these systems that work very well in the Asian markets to North America. It's definitely a different mindset, more social-focused game. It's not "wrong" though, like you're making it out to be.
Anyway, back to the main point here. You're talking about a cash shop selling best-in-slot PvE gear. I'm calling bullshit. So pony up some actual titles that offer these items in shop, or should we simply chalk up yet another of your posts to being completely irrelevant.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I noticed Every once in a while that social gear and gameplay comes over here with a game and it often seems odd to the NA/EU audience. The matchmaking/wedding stuff is usually the one to do it, but occasionally it comes in other fun forms like Vindictus' outfits and underwear.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
- As far as to "why would players want to subscribe to an mmorpg when they would gain no advantage?"...
So far, the full set of reasons why to have a subscription have not been worked out, so the following is not everything. At the moment however, I am thinking along these lines :- I am thinking a second plot might also be allowed, but only if the second plot is for farming and-or animal rearing, or the like. This too would gain the same benefit, on the same account (not per server).
Without a subscription, an in-game currency reserve would need to be placed to pay a weekly fee, in order to avoid house decay. The fee itself will be low, as building the house will be the real cost.Without the fee paid, a free player could simply open their door to refresh their house once a week.
This is basically the same system Ultima Online (UO) at least had over a decade ago. Everyone would also be subjected to all plots automatically going "in danger of collapse," if 2 or more like plots are owned (ie - 2 houses and-or 2 farms). "In danger of Collapse" gives 24-48 hours before the construction falls (as there will be some small % chance and an increased % chance, of the plot falling every 5 minutes, whereas at 48 hours will be a 100% chance), allowing others to take whatever items were on that plot, and to place their own construction.
- Subscriptions will also include the ability to participate on the forums for the extent of having an active subscription.
Without the ability to participate, anyone can still read the forums.Active accounts will still be able to use whatever customer service options there are.
Non-accounts will be able to use whatever email there is.
The only other way to participate on the forums, will be through a total spending of $30 for cash shop currency, within a 30 day period. Thus, if you spent $10 one week and $20 two weeks later, you would have 30 days available to participate on the forums from the first purchase. After that however, another $10 would need to be spent to have that $30 total.
The game itself will be using skill building as opposed to leveling, of which will have a default of a "gains or up arrow" for each skill locked in the "gain or up position."
- Subscriptions will have unlimited ability to lock a skill at any particular number of their choosing, and-or to set the arrow downward for losses to a skill, in order to bring those skill points to another skill. Again, Ultima Online (UO) also had/has a system like this.
It should be noted, that this particular point will seem like it is P2W in writing. In practice however, everything involved will be tweaked in order to not allow that to be the case.Without a subscription, there are a few ways to deal with skills.
First would be to know what skills you want and only go with those, which I do realize will not be likely, especially on a first character.
The second would be to use a "Notebook" which will be provided, which will be able to be used to first start to build skills up, and then be used to learn said skills right from the notebook. The Notebook will have limited points allowed, but can also have an entire skill erased from it at a time. The Notebook will also be able to be later used for "extra" skills beyond what the proficiency pool would allow.
The third would be by way of finding or buying "Indicators" that will allow 1 alteration to the "gains, losses or locked" position, and is consumable. These will be cheap in the cash shop, so the ability to buy these off other players will not be an issue. These will also come as drops out and about the world, so there may come no need to buy one.
The focus on subscription does not take into account that the P2W Reduction Methods themselves, should make more than enough money, comparable to what a subscription only without cash shop model would yield.
- Making Cash Shop Currency 50% Bound and 50% Unbound.
This will allow players of typical financial situations to be able to purchase items out of the cash shop that they want for themselves affordably, while at the same time, creating an obstacle or hindrance to those seeking to use P2W as an advantage.- Progress and Upgrade Items only available through in-game play (not in the cash shop).
This takes into consideration the biggest sales items. Given that those using P2W advantage can still take their cash shop currency and exchange for in-game currency, they have the ability to purchase these items from other players. This takes away the direct "cash shopper to company" transactions, and places these items in the hands of those who play the game. This allows everyone the ability to keep and use such items, or sell for in-game currency.- Items Equivalent to Cash Shop Items (such as mounts, flying gears, fashion, etc), but only available through in-game play, skills etc.
Whereas the cash shop will have items unique to it, so too will in-game means have items unique to it. Such items will be equivalent in utility. Cash shop items will also have other restrictions attached to them, before truly being usable at their full potential. Technically, so will the in-game equivalent items. Playing the game will be part of the game for everyone.Beyond these points, is the possibility that I may decide to just go with a subscription only model. However, it is best to plan ahead. If a subscription model does not work, it would be best to go free to play, so long as p2w is not allowed to be unlimited. That needs to be part of the systems from the beginning, so as to not have major overhauls of those various systems. You would want minimum change to the game as possible.
Any issues, points, additions, etc?
You obviously are still not reading the OP, or not understanding what you are reading.
1. The old "buy the box (which came with at least 30 days free) => then pay for a subscription only without cash shop" was a system with integrity within the game itself. They produced an expansion, again it was the same as the box set with another 30 days which were attached to it, then continue to pay a monthly subscription.
2. With respect to point 1... It is and should be expected that a player pays something toward any product, including and especially mmorpgs, given their costs.
3. With respect to point 1... Given rmt / black market are properly dealt with, this system was as fair as it gets to all players across the board. Accomplishments actually meant something. Accomplishments were actually looked UP at by those whom did not yet achieve those.
4. With respect to point 3... You could see what player advantages there were... SKILL... TIME... SOCIAL... LEADS...
Today's system? F2P w/ Cash Shop?
Bunch of gimme gimme gimme free whiny brats. "Oh I get to play a game for free"... And yet by paying a fair amount if not a ridiculous amount compared to what would be fair, you are still not competing at the top end.
Today you see some major item someone else has, it is not an accomplishment, it only tells you how big another player's wallet is.
It is no longer even something you look UP at, but instead are nauseated by the idea of this game you are playing, and by the idea that the industry at large is all the same crap.
None of it is the same thing as the old subscription only model, not the effect it has in game, not the look, not the feel, not the price, none of it.
You should actually read Fractal_Analogy's posts a little better. He/She has a better idea of reality than the developers spewing nonsense on this thread.
As if based on what player advantages you could see in that subscription only model, you can not see that REAL MONEY is the P2W advantage to have, of which trumps all others?
But keep up the trolling if you will, it is obviously because this idea of P2W actually being defined properly and the systems involved revealing more about how P2W actually works, which is why you developers are all over this topic... BEEN ALL OVER THIS TOPIC.
No, @Fractal_Analogy has a better idea of YOUR reality. The problem is that BOTH of your realities are NOT in the realm of reality. The reality is that games are expensive to make. Subscription models do NOT work. Even with AAA games with AAA IP, publishers CANNOT maintain a decent subscription base in order to support their game. It's fine if you disagree, but please provide some evidence, because a game lasting longer than 1 year in subscription these days is a freakin' miracle!
Those who do attempt subscription, and fail, are required to revert to F2P + cash shop and/or sub hybrid in order to generate enough revenues to cover their costs.
All the while, you whiny "this isn't fair" brats continue to spout on about P2W and how they sell the best gear in the cash shop and how you can't enjoy the game because everybody has all this good stuff and you can't get it unless you spend money. WHICH IS BULLSHIT!!!!
Again, please feel free to prove me wrong by providing 3, just 3, MMORPG games which allow you to purchase best-in-slot gear from a cash shop.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
In the years that followed, the economics changed drastically, and so did the way that this approach to sales was used. For the companies it became a way for companies to charge more for less, eventually reaching the point where the customers felt that they were getting ripped off. For the customers, It became a way for those that had more money to gain significant advantages over those that had less, eventually reaching a point where the companies changed models to better balance this.
I will not say that this system was designed to be abused... but over the past decade, it has been pushed to its limits. Both customers and companies have moved on to systems that are less extreme, following the examples from other markets. Anyone claiming that this approach is good has simply missed the last decade of company/customer experience.
P.S. The underlying issue is the question of WHY it matters how an item is purchased to see how it effects the game. Does it matter if a theoretical sword of win is obtained for money via box, expansion, subscription or cash shop. The issue is still that someone got the sword of win for money.
If you actually bothered reading the P2W Reductions Methods (through the link in my sig), you would actually know that I know that the subscription model alone does not work. Hence the reason for the P2W Reduction Methods to begin with. So your entire "subscription models does not work speech" is simply "blah blah blah," as it has already been stated by me. That includes everything STRUCK OUT.
Your talking about someone such as myself supposedly whining about "I can not get good stuff unless I pay money" is complete crackpot nonsense. It is more like "I can not compete in all aspects of a game unless I spend thousands MORE THAN I ALREADY HAVE." There is some reality for you.
And again to you and all of the crackpot developers on this site...
IT IS NOT ABOUT JUST BEING ABLE TO PURCHASE BEST IN SLOT GEAR DIRECTLY FROM THE CASH SHOP...
About your "sword of win" example. There is your first downfall as a developer. There should be an A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, N & O sword of varying types, thus giving the ability for a player to customize their character as they see fit, no matter what class they play, including skills, playstyles and appearances. There should be enough difficult content to provide different scenarios in acquiring and-or building those swords. Some of that will require a rethinking of how and what quests ought to be. Some of that will require great improvements in creating challenging content. Some of that will require great strides in non-combat aspects of an MMORPG. Some of that will require that developers even know that an MMORPG is an online version of the Pen & Paper / Tabletop RPG Player Experience. And this entire paragraph would require that a developer reading it has something between their ears, as to not have written this out in vein.WHEN I CAN EFFING BUY COSMETIC VANITY FASHIONS TO SELL IN AN AUCTION HOUSE AT RIDICULOUS IN-GAME CURRENCY PRICES AND USE THAT IN-GAME CURRENCY TO GREAT ADVANTAGES TOWARD PHENOMENAL GEARS AND UPGRADES FOR THAT GEAR.
THE P2W ADVANTAGE IS NOT JUST ABOUT DIRECTLY PURCHASING THOSE ADVANTAGES FROM THE CASH SHOP YOU EFFING MONKEY.
The next aspect of your "sword of win" example, comes down to the first paragraph I just wrote. That should be emphasized, given I am sure that will be skipped somehow. Why is that important? You can actually have a subscription business model today AND still have a cash shop. Not only has this been proven a myriad of times at this point in the industry (as can be seen among the top MMORPGs today), but further has a damn good reason to take into account the P2W Reduction Methods, in order to maintain their damn integrity.
If a player can simply use real money to buy cash shop currency, to buy any item in the cash shop, to sell for in-game currency, to buy said "sword of win" and-or upgrades to improve said "sword of win," then you have made your game worthless, the integrity of that game worthless, and makes me question the credibility of people that can stand behind doing such things to a genre they obviously have no business partaking of. Those developers can go back to programming in banking and other buisinesses, and get the **** out of the MMORPG genre. So keep on at it, get your paycheck, that is all the genre is to you and those other developers. The only good news that leaves, is that eventually some company out of left field will come out with something truly great. It is all about the highs and lows, the ups and downs, no matter how long the lows may persist.
You do not have to challenge me, you have to challenge the person who suggested it. It was his analogy and his argument.
I went with it to illustrate how offering such items in a cash shop makes a game pay to win.
I used his example to the Nth degree to refute his own ideology. And I already spoke to him, that "fluff" is what he holds dear, is not what others hold dear. Do not confuse me with holding the line on a logical point, as my over-all argument. You keep wanting to confuse one point with the other, or making one point refute another.
Why have fluff or stat items in the cash shop?
It doesn't exist.
We are discussing the THEORY of cash shops. Not past games, but the ones coming in the future and "Discussion / Allowing Players to spend as much as they want... what methods could be used to limit Players P2W advantage...."
Please follow along... past game are only for reference, not the mark.
Second, a 'Sword of Win' is not an actual item, it is a theoretical item (as specified) used to represent a clearly designated P2W item.
Next, you still have not clarified WHY the method used to purchase this matters. Why is it ok to purchase it via box, expansion or subscription, but not via a cash shop? You have referred to these payment methods as P2W reduction methods, but never explained WHY they reduce the P2W (when you compare the same thing via the different purchase methods).
Most of us would change the description to be something like this:
If a player can simply use real money to get said "sword of win" and-or upgrades to improve said "sword of win," then...
Note that this totally removes the requirement of a cash shop, as it is not relevant. The issue isnt the cash shop, the issue is what you get for your money.
There is no current game released in the last 5+ that was made to the standards of a subscription based model. (Those games are coming and I have been calling them the "Baby Bells".)
Since 2007+ nearly every developer has tried desperately to claim some title of "Most played" to dethrone World of Warcraft. Hoping to generate enough interest and people in their games, to earn back their investment, over a shorter and shorter period of time. Matter of fact, there are very few developers that have succeeded with their original business model. And thus have changed their business model after release.
Yet, EQ, WoW, EVE, Lineage, etc... all built from the ground up as sub based are still going strong and outlasting many of these 5 year old games that have come out recently and nearly/already folded, or flopped. (ie: ArchAge, Aion, Warhammer, etc)
You feel the way you do, because you are a noob.
No adult thinks any of these current crop of games are deserving of their monthly dollars, that is why these Developers are not getting subscription for them. Thus having to jump in the bargain bin as a Free to Play and entice fish and whales to play, by using trinkets and doodaads. (ie: cash shop/Item mall)
Players decide what a AAA game is, not some marketing mouthpiece developer.
Subscription business model does work, just not on a piss-poor games, that are not deserving. Again, look for the Baby bells coming in the next couple of years.
#1 Your game is piss poor and you spend $100 Million or more to develop your MMO
#2 You have what the market calls over saturation - TOO MANY MMOS which to have right now
#3 Your game panders to a very small faction of the MMO market and was VERY expensive to make. Perm Death MMO, MMO with Open world PVP and Full Looting, PVP Centric MMO
#4 You try to be the next WOW MMO
Thats it and because how many MMOs fall into these 4 Situations guess what they HAVE to go F2P and the ONLY F2P method which will make money is P2W. Thats right folks and if the game gets people to spend $1000s on their game a month they will laugh in your face if you think they will do things to stop it because you are foolish to think they should. Why? Because you're likely one of those who thinks there needs to be another MMO out too when really they need less and they dont need to spend as much as they have on an MMO.
How to be a Successful Subscription MMO?
#1 Dont over spend on developing your game. $10 to 60ish Million is a good range and if its a good game can get about 500K players paying $15 a month and the initial investment less than a year
#2 Dont get investors who want all their money back on day 1 of launch
#3 Dont make a shitty game that has bugs all over like a Boss fight that bugs out at 15% all the time
#4 Make the game fun for people to play not a 2nd job
#5 Let the developers who are Gamers make the choices what goes into the game not Marketing people. Just because Farmvillie is a big game does not mean it will bring all the Farmvillie people to your MMO
#6 Balance hardcore content with casual content
When you outright sell said "sword of win" via a cash shop, directly or indirectly, it cheapens the experience overall to the majority of players. It cheapens the game itself, the integrity of that game, and of the company. The "game" is no longer about skill or accomplishments of meaning, but instead it becomes about whose wallet is bigger than whose. That is not a game that most care to play, but the industry at large at this point leaves no alternatives to that "wallet vs wallet" experience.
It does not matter what you call it, "if a player can simply use real money to get said sword of win and-or upgrades to improve it," then that is a cash shop. If you are paying for the product, content and service however, that is not the same thing.
The best idea of this still comes down to chess...
1. A subscription is each player renting the ability to play classical chess as we know it. Each game has meaning, it has equal or fair footed competition.
2. A cash shop is each player having the ability to buy extra pieces, moves, and the like. WTF is the point of playing this version?
Yes mmos are now effected by that because server cost is nothing now.
A better link that does justice is http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1016417/-100-000-Whales-An, as it is right out of the f2p advocates horses' mouth. It shows what the thoughts are behind f2p as is the current trend.
The simplest example of the argument comes down to the chess example...
1. A subscription is each player renting the ability to play classical chess as we know it. Each game has meaning, as it has equal or fair footed competition.
2. A cash shop is each player having the ability to buy extra pieces, moves, and the like. WTF is the point of playing this version?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
"Where payment is made vs what is paid for" is the biggest wall you have created for your own discussion.
As to the line above, it is also consistent with every other post you have made in that you create qualifiers that make your point indisputable, but when presented with the illogical or contradictory nature of it, you either lash out at the poster or just start deleting your messages.
Yes, everyone is on equal footing when compared to others that have paid the same cost. The player that bought the expansion is in equal footing with the player that didn't. However, the player that didn't buy the expansion is not on equal footing.
You seem to apply the argument that everyone should buy the expansion, however if that new level zone was sold as a cash shop item, you would say it was pay to win... a paid advantage. You don't see how all that is rather illogical?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Except you have already been refuted, rebuffed and shown you are wrong.
There is no equal footing when you have item mall/cash shops. Because those with more money to spend, have an advantage over those who do not have such money to spend.
I understand you get your kicks trolling these threads, but at some point you have to stop your thread-crapping.
The OP says that
if the zone is bought as an expansion, then it is fair
and
if the zone is bought in a cash shop, then it is pay to win or an advantage
Please stop interjecting until you can follow the conversation. Plenty of posters, myself included, have already asked you to try to follow along, and all we seem to get from you is insults and more odd sidetracks. You're really not helping the discussion.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The only thing I can not understand, is how the chess game example is so difficult to grasp...
- Selling access to play the game on equal footing,
- Verses the unrestricted selling of extra moves and pieces.
Whereas proper expansions (as compared to some piecemealed nonsense) do in fact expand the storyline overall, they do in fact expand access to content, they do in fact expand access to potentially greater items (combat items included), they are also more akin to sequels among literature. Expansions by necessity must have their challenges overcome still, or in other words, the content of expansions must still be played through in order to gain any possible advantages over others. There is a sort of unwritten etiquette to this method, and this method still holds it's natural limits on how much needs to be spent, as that limit is based solely on the expansion price outright and honestly.None of that however, translates as being the same as selling extra moves and pieces, not in it's integrity. The practice of selling extra moves and pieces is without any limitations to how many moves or pieces one can buy, and thus without any limitations to the advantages that can be obtained... simply by having more real money than other players, more money than the majority of players mind you. Think that is not the case, take a look at real world distributions of income.
Anything I missed?
PS. You can spin the past anyway you would like, the way you like to spin many things apparently. Nothing was deleted on the basis you claim. Those considered and-or recognized as trolls (from many months of dealing with the same posters mind you) are dealt with in particular ways, depending on what I deem as necessary, because any other way of dealing with them only leads in circles.
https://www.pirate101.com/free_game/chapter_pricing
Each Chapter in Pirate 101 is a new zone with new quests.
Each chapter includes new gear, new ships, new fluff items, and new companions.
Each chapter expands the story and provides higher level content.
Each chapter is an expansion to the game.
You say that buying an expansion is not paying for an advantage.
You say that buying from the cash shop is.
I have a very simple question, and it's not a lot to ask of you to answer it directly. Not with cheeseburger, movie, chess or driving analogies, but a direct answer to a direct question:
How is buying a chapter from the Pirate 101 cash shop
different from buying it as an expansion pack from a retail outlet?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre