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Well, you only sell gold for real money and let the players buy items for it at the AH but that still totals the economical system of the game.
Paying for actual advantages instead of things that just look cool or give you more character slots messes up the game.
Now, the balance between casual players and 24/7 is an entirely different subject and there are solutions for that as well but justifying P2win with them is just bad.
The issue is still that most MMOs are focused on getting the best stuff in the game and when you allow people to use real money to get that stuff you make the entire game pointless. You could just sell a "You win" animation for $1000 and save everyone some time.
Or maybe you guys just want to continue with the problems because you can't figure out how else to do it.
The biggest problem of all is that you guys can't make games that people will pay for in enough numbers. So you sink deeper into the hole by adding P2W.
Oh, I know. You guys are the "experts". Yes indeed, you are doing so well at it too. So well that you have to come here (and elsewhere) to bring your expertise to the masses to drum up support for this as a solution.
This is one big con game.
Once upon a time....
We're addicted to MMO's and lost our homes!
(But we are the winners, newbs)
Once upon a time....
"Answers to problems?" Where does that even come from?
No problems have been discussed between us, and the OP's "problem" is imaginary in the context of MMORPGs.
So if you want to discuss problems, start by bringing one up. Be sure it's a clear obvious problem, and has basis in logic and evidence.
Make sure it's not like Kotaku's troll post about Microsoft Solitaire today which basically went:
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Imaginary problems?
Listen Dev, I'm the customer. I'm telling you there's problems. So are many others in words. And so are many, many, many others through their wallets.
The fact that these problems aren't "clear and obvious" enough for you is purely on you.
I swear, your industry is full of lamebrains. I wouldn't get nearly as irate over all this if you guys didn't go around message boards and act like Baghdad Bob.
It's FTP now!
Once upon a time....
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Of course it is P2W. Commercialized games are P2W. Charities are not (supposed to be) P2W. Games that dont take any money at all are still P2W if goods/services can be exchanged. P2W is caused by allowing people to interact.
Selling gold directly is injecting gold into the system, and devalues the gold already in the system, and the gold earned by anyone in the game.
NOT allowing the best stuff to be purchased (indirectly) for real money just undermines the value of gameplay. People can always pay for something, but if the system does not allow it to be purchased legitimately, they just buy it illegitimately. Trying to stop people from buying their way to the best stuff hasnt ever worked (in games or real life). The best you can do is make it so that those playing the game get benefits from this as well.
That is simple...
because player advantages such as skill and time (time being the player advantage you are asking about limiting), already have limitations. The P2W Player Advantage, without P2W Reduction Methods of some sort, have no limitations. The idea behind this thread is simply to at least attempt to limit the P2W Player Advantage, if not at least attempt to balance it with the other advantages.
The reason to at least attempt to balance P2W with the other Player Advantages, is because each and every last Player Advantage stems specifically from the Players' real life advantages... EVERY... LAST... DAMN... ADVANTAGE. It does not matter if you are talking skill, time, grouping, money, or whatever other player advantages you can dream up. They all stem from the players' real life, all originating from outside the game itself.
Apparently however, you have the majority of the playerbase that is blindly opposed to P2W based on their past experiences with it, and you have the company end developers that will not even acknowledge that P2W exists (much like the US government even denied Area 51 existed, even given during lawsuits due to burning toxic chemicals workers were exposed to).
If they aren't spending money they are not a customer. Freeloader is a better word for it.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
So what would be the "Maximum" amount that someone could spend which would limit the player advantage? I can tell you that whatever that number is, it will be an unfair amount to someone. People don't make the same amount of money, period.
Also, you mention that developers deny that P2W exists, but I think that you're wrong. Developers are quite conscious of what P2W is and have a better grasp of what P2W means than some people *cough* you *cough* See, the thing is that you continually mention advantage, but there are VERY few games which offer a substantial (or any) advantage to someone pouring money into a game. At "end game" there are very few (I can't even think of a handful) games which actually offer an advantage to those who are willing to shell out money.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Can you give an example of an MMO where play time or connection time is limited/restricted by the game? If you are talking about personal limitations, then you are agreeing with GameJeff, that time is just as much a paid (in time) advantage as paying with money, yet you have no issue with that end being unregulated.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
PAY TO WIN.
It's a problem.
Why? Because players who pay for stuff get the stuff. Which is a big part of any MMO, because players who don't pay for the stuff don't get the stuff, or have to pay the PAY TO WINNERS to get the stuff, or otherwise suffer disadvantage to the PAY TO WINNERS.
Or maybe it's just my "imagination".
Once upon a time....
In MMORPGs the only winning is beating skill challenges. It's extremely rare for MMORPGs to sell things that help with that.
So stop using the term "pay to win". It doesn't match your complaints.
Consider "capitalism" instead. It matches your complaints (players who pay for stuff get the stuff! players who don't pay for the stuff don't get the stuff!)
Just realize that by criticizing capitalism in games, you're going to either be laughed at, or (by more reasonable posters like myself) asked to provide a rather strong proof that a non-capitalistic system could work.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Yes, yes it is. This is a classic example of someone over-exaggerating P2W as pandemic, when it isn't. Again, you were asked to give one (1), just a single, example of P2W, and you didn't. You essentially said that any game that sells anything in a cash shop is P2W. Given this example, every single game is P2W. So if every single game is P2W then it's not a problem, it's a norm. It's like saying, "Why do I have to pay for food at the grocery store?" or "Wow! McDonald's is so P2W! I can go and sit inside McDonalds, but they never bring me a burger. THAT guy, though, goes up and gives them money and they give him a burger!!! The only way I can get the burger from the guy is giving him something in trade. Hmmmmm, I'm not sure what he actually wants, but I'm sure if I had something he wanted.....Oh!! Copper Ore! I have some of that!" <-- seriously, this is you.
In REALITY, thankfully, the number of games which are P2W is a small, fraction of a percentage. I can actually only think of one that I would consider to be P2W, but even in that game you can still buy the cash shop items with in-game currency, so whatever. The whole idea of P2W is that you're buying some sort of advantage. Just "Win" on it's own is defined as being successful in a contest. So I'm unsure what contest you are able to pay for to win.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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P2W is the ability of spending players to turn money into game items/goods/service/benefits. It is not the ability to prevent others from doing the same, without spending money. The limiting access to items/goods/services without paying is a P2P approach (not P2W).
What a bunch of bullshit.
Any game that has a cash shop for anything in-game is PtW. There's degrees of how much "win" you can buy. But it's still paying for winning something inside the game.
Players that play these games either do without, work a hell of a lot harder to get things, or pays extra for said things.
There's no fairness in the game. It's fair as far as getting what you pay for, but it's not fair as far as game play from one player to another.
It hurts the game play overall. These games always add more and more to their cash shops over time to keep up their revenues. The situation gets worse and worse, an ever increasing gap between the amounts of extra money spent.
Look at all the complaints about it. A growing situation. Yet these industry guys who come here and argue on and on that it's not a problem are the very same names who constantly harass any thread about Sandbox games. They are here to promote the declining quality of their types of games and to prevent anything "different" from being discussed. They are in those threads too, always, constantly, a never ending story of mass media control.
And they are here proving that every Fing day.
Once upon a time....
Ok, before we go any further, please answer this: Do you feel paid expansions are P2W?
"Yet these industry guys who come here and argue on and on that it's not a problem are the very same names who constantly harass any thread about Sandbox games." - Amaranthar
Wait... what? LOL
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pay-to-win
There are actually a number of definitions here and not a single one mentions anything about any game with a cash shop being P2W.
Again, please feel free to provide an example of paying to win something within a game. If I buy a costume, how is that winning. I'm trying to understand your definition. Also, there are not varying levels of winning. I think that winning is quite clear. You win, you lose, or you draw. These are very concise things, I don't come home from a baseball game and say, "Well.... we KINDA won. Like we partially won."
How does a cash shop affect the gameplay? There is a level cap in every MMO. There are zero shops, I'm aware of, which sell gear that is better than what can be farmed from dungeons easily enough. There is nobody who sells gems, etc. which are superior to what you can earn in a free game.
You do understand that developers are not developing games out of the good of their hearts, right? Tell me about the model you'd like to see and how you'd like a developer to monetize their game. Is it P2P (btw there will still be a cash shop here because P2P isn't sustainable). Is it B2P (again, the cash shop will be incoming). If it's a retail boxed copy, then you've got DLC to contend with, more frequent expansions, and sequels, etc. There is no bastion. In addition to that, if you give me a single, just 1, BOE item that can be bought through a cash shop in a game, I guarantee that I will find a minimum of 3 places that I can buy something BETTER, simply to illustrate that there is NOTHING being sold in cash shops that I couldn't already buy (and buy better) online. If you think that you're on equal footing with people in games without a cash shop then you're living in a dream world buddy! I dare you! Find me a single piece of cash shop gear in any game and I'll find something better online. So where do you want your money going? Into the hands of the developer or into the hands of some slimey gold farmer?
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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Oh man, you are really stretching it. That's a complicated issue and it all depends on what exactly it is. New land masses are additional content. New items that can be brought back (and should be) would be P2W if they aren't also added to the first land areas.
Are you seriously going to deny that you guys do that? I can easily, well not so easily due to the massive amounts, link to threads chocked full of this crap on both sides (pro same old carp and anti Sandbox worldly games). But I don't have to because everyone can see it. IF they can't, I suggest they simply stay around a while and it'll become very obvious.
Once upon a time....
Just stop. If you buy a costume, someone else also wants that costume but for whatever reason can't, you get "win" and they don't.
It's that simple.
Once upon a time....
What's laughable is the state of the MMO industry and the fact that some of you are trying so damned hard to keep it going as it is.
Now THAT's funny.
Once upon a time....
"Just stop. If you buy a costume, someone else also wants that costume but for whatever reason can't, you get "win" and they don't.
It's that simple."
That's called cognitive dissonance. Once you resolve that, we can move forward.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre