I would never listen to a word Smart has to say. His games pissed me off. The fact that he is charging money for the load of crap he just released should be a crime.
However, he may be right in saying CIG cannot possibly deliver everything they have promised.
Recently they just dropped the co-op mode for SQ42, so it looks like they are shedding features as needed.
The project also includes Squadron 42, a single player campaign that takes place within the Star Citizen universe. Able to be played off-line or with friends, you essentially sign up to fly for the UEE fleet, manning the front lines, protecting settlements from Vanduul warbands. If you prove yourself, you might get asked to join the legendary 42nd Squadron. Set up like the French Foreign Legion, they can always be found in the toughest war zones and always manage to come out on top. Once you complete your tour however, you re-enter the persistent Star Citizen universe with some money in your pocket and Citizenship to find your way.
You have exactly that Wing Commander experience with the added bonus of some multiplayer and your friends being able to sort of co-op play with you as wingmen when you fly your missions.
Single player / campaign will be structured like a wing commander in that's its a progression on branching missions - win you go on the good path, bad you go down the bad path - there's usually a few opportunities to recover from a bad path before its too late. This will be playable as simple [sic] player or with your friends in drop in / drop put co-op playing wingmen.
You still spouting your bullshit, ain't you bored of reading your own rubbish.
I am quoting the international gaming press - read by a few hundred thousand people - and the Steam Statistics - which tracks the gaming habits of a few million people (OK, in the case of LoD ... only 2 people ;-) .
What about you ?
Have fun
Thing is that CIG still havent adressed the real issue: How are they going to make the game promised when thier current engines dont support it, and they still havent shown anything remotely indicating they have a prototype of an engine actaully capable of handling the promised seemless universe?
That is the core issue that Mr. Smart originally presented, but CIG are trying damned hard to make it about everything but that.
Mr. Smart has made his mind up that they simply arent going to be able to deliver, that is his stand. CIG could close this by showing us something to prove they have/understand the tech needed to deliver not just a stand alone flight sim and stand alone FPS, but a seamless integrated product.
It is that simple to close the issue. So why dont they?
That is what you should be wondering about.
Because they can't. That's why.
The game they are now pitching is TECHNOLOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE. Period. End of story. And that's precisely what sparked my first Interstellar Citizens blog.
And the fact that they're pissing around with CryEngine3, is testament to just one aspect of that.
And now - as expected - they've started cutting things. Which means that the $85m game that was pitched and promised, is now going to be less of a game, and in turn, be worth less than what some the backers who pledged $85m, expected.
I don't care how people make this about me, it won't change the facts. And by the time the dust settles, I will be proven right.
And as I said in this comment, this has nothing to do with anything personal against Chris Roberts. At all. There are much bigger issues in play now.
Game developers are just human beings who happen to make games for a living. If you want to hold us up to higher standards of conduct, then go ahead ...but don't be surprised if we don't uphold them.
You still spouting your bullshit, ain't you bored of reading your own rubbish.
I am quoting the international gaming press - read by a few hundred thousand people - and the Steam Statistics - which tracks the gaming habits of a few million people (OK, in the case of LoD ... only 2 people ;-) .
What about you ?
Have fun
Thing is that CIG still havent adressed the real issue: How are they going to make the game promised when thier current engines dont support it, and they still havent shown anything remotely indicating they have a prototype of an engine actaully capable of handling the promised seemless universe?
That is the core issue that Mr. Smart originally presented, but CIG are trying damned hard to make it about everything but that.
Mr. Smart has made his mind up that they simply arent going to be able to deliver, that is his stand. CIG could close this by showing us something to prove they have/understand the tech needed to deliver not just a stand alone flight sim and stand alone FPS, but a seamless integrated product.
It is that simple to close the issue. So why dont they?
That is what you should be wondering about.
Because they can't. That's why.
The game they are now pitching is TECHNOLOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE. Period. End of story. And that's precisely what sparked my first Interstellar Citizens blog.
And the fact that they're pissing around with CryEngine3, is testament to just one aspect of that.
And now - as expected - they've started cutting things. Which means that the $85m game that was pitched and promised, is now going to be less of a game, and in turn, be worth less than what some the backers who pledged $85m, expected.
I don't care how people make this about me, it won't change the facts. And by the time the dust settles, I will be proven right.
And as I said in this comment, this has nothing to do with anything personal against Chris Roberts. At all. There are much bigger issues in play now.
You know what else was Technologically Impossible once? YouTube, Google, every single game that's come out this year. Oh, and not that long ago, by the way, but you were there. Also, I find it interesting that you're speaking witin the context of CryEngine 3 as though that's their sandbox. That's kind of like the same engine arguments that we get in SWTOR forums. Remember that they have fully open code. It's entirely possible that there is little still recognizable as CryEngine 3 in there. Plus, based on my understanding, Crytek were lending PLENTY of resources at the outset, so if that continued, they had engine expertise from the beginning. I'm actually surprised that an industry expert would actually use the word Technologically Impossible. Don't you feel like that sounds like a pretty bold and damning statement? In an industry where creativity and innovation has already, seemingly, run dry, do you feel like you're helping yourself by suggesting that this is impossible? Especially considering some of the other emerging tech? Some of the things we're doing with games that were simply not possible, even 10 years ago?
That's fine that you want to be right, but I don't understand how you feel like your posts aren't to be considered conduct detrimental to your businesses. John Smedley fell into the same trap and, essentially, single-handedly crippled a portfolio of games for a period of time. As some responsible for operating these types of games, I don't care whether you own them or if you're simply an executive, you need to remain political. You say you know your audience but you clearly don't, because you managed to offend more than you swayed. In addition to that, you seem contradictory in your remarks. Your criticisms of other games (not just SC) are areas which you and your own games show critical weaknesses, or failures. Your inability to take accountability for your actions or products is unbecoming of an executive. Honestly, I think that you are able to make bold statements without coming off looking like a child. Do you really think that you'll get an unbiased review after all this? Do you think you've somehow helped Alganon? LoD? Or have you just put them in the grave?
The game they are now pitching is TECHNOLOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE. Period. End of story. And that's precisely what sparked my first Interstellar Citizens blog.
And the fact that they're pissing around with CryEngine3, is testament to just one aspect of that.
And now - as expected - they've started cutting things. Which means that the $85m game that was pitched and promised, is now going to be less of a game, and in turn, be worth less than what some the backers who pledged $85m, expected.
I don't care how people make this about me, it won't change the facts. And by the time the dust settles, I will be proven right.
And as I said in this comment, this has nothing to do with anything personal against Chris Roberts. At all. There are much bigger issues in play now.
Please Derek... you repeat yourself. Do have something new to say or do you still transfer your personal (dis-)abilities on other persons? You did it in the past and you still do it.
"e.g. I wanted a seamless space<->planet transition without using jump anomalies but it wasn't practical and the middleware engine we used couldn't make it possible.
Also, those four planetary scenes on Lyrius were supposed to be one massive seamless area in which you could drive/fly to without jump anomalies. Couldn't happen. And I actually did that with All Aspect Warfare and Angle Of Attack, both of my 2009 games which use an in-house engine; which is what I wanted to do again with LOD until I had to scrap it all and go with middleware engines without having to re-invent the wheel. Again, compromises"
You jar on our nerves... really.
Also a famous quote regarding impossibilities:
IMPOSSIBLE IS NOTHING.
Impossible is just a big word thrown around by small men who find it easier to live in a world they've been given than explore the power they have to change it.
After all ... you have worked 5 years on LoD while Star Citizen started in October 2012. And your peak concurrent users (all 4 of them over the last 3 months) will surely scream for co-op gameplay. Well .. you just banned one of the 4 (=Benjamin Danneberg). The other one is a Valve moderator called Scream. So ... the remaining 2 can do co-op. Which means .. YOU plus some unknown poor guy.
The game they are now pitching is TECHNOLOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE. Period. End of story.
...and this belief is exactly why you've never produced anything but mediocre games at best. Sorry Derek but it's true. Those games we as Gamers remember as the games we loved and some still play to this day are those games that dared to push back the realm of possibility. Those games that gave us that warm fuzzy feeling inside because we knew we were playing something that we didn't think was possible Technologically. Those games that were created by those that dared to challenge the impossible and worked hard to make it possible. Is Star Citizen one of those games? Only time will tell. Has anything you've ever produced over the many years of your career been one of those games? Definitely not.
The game they are now pitching is TECHNOLOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE. Period. End of story.
...and this belief is exactly why you've never produced anything but mediocre games at best. Sorry Derek but it's true. Those games we as Gamers remember as the games we loved and some still play to this day are those games that dared to push back the realm of possibility. Those games that gave us that warm fuzzy feeling inside because we knew we were playing something that we didn't think was possible Technologically. Those games that were created by those that dared to challenge the impossible and worked hard to make it possible. Is Star Citizen one of those games? Only time will tell. Has anything you've ever produced over the many years of your career been one of those games? Definitely not.
Bren
Maybe if people stopped taking what I said out of context, we could have a decent discussion.
My point has nothing to do with them trying to do it. No. It has to do with them increasing the scope of the game, beyond what is currently technologically possible, while stringing backers along. And the risk of that is they will
start cutting things out because, well, what I said
run out of money before they can get past the technology hurdles I have outlined
I mean seriously, how hard is this to understand, without getting into semantics and fights?
And my Interstellar Citizens blog was clear about this specific part and even in that blog, I clearly said
this:
Without disrespect to anyone, I’m just going to say it: it is my opinion that, this game, as has been pitched, will neverget made. Ever.
There isn’t a single publisher or developer on this planet who could build this game as pitched, let alone for anything less than $150 million.
The original vision which I backed in 2012? Yes, that was totally doable. This new vision? Not a chance.
The technical scope of this game surpasses GTAV, not to mention the likes of Halo.
Do you have any idea what those games cost to make and how long they took?
Do you know how many games which cost $50 million to make took almost five years to release? And they were nowhere in scope as Star Citizen?
and this:
So I really do hope and pray that RSI can pull this off, because if someone like me, with all my experience and expertise on this very same subject and who has spent half a lifetime trying can’t do it without sacrificing something (visual fidelity, performance, scope etc) in the process, and they, with all this money and star talent can’t do it either, then it’s safe to say that it simply can’t be done. At least not in our lifetime.
Game developers are just human beings who happen to make games for a living. If you want to hold us up to higher standards of conduct, then go ahead ...but don't be surprised if we don't uphold them.
The game they are now pitching is TECHNOLOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE. Period. End of story.
...and this belief is exactly why you've never produced anything but mediocre games at best. Sorry Derek but it's true. Those games we as Gamers remember as the games we loved and some still play to this day are those games that dared to push back the realm of possibility. Those games that gave us that warm fuzzy feeling inside because we knew we were playing something that we didn't think was possible Technologically. Those games that were created by those that dared to challenge the impossible and worked hard to make it possible. Is Star Citizen one of those games? Only time will tell. Has anything you've ever produced over the many years of your career been one of those games? Definitely not.
Bren
Maybe if people stopped taking what I said out of context, we could have a decent discussion.
My point has nothing to do with them trying to do it. No. It has to do with them increasing the scope of the game, beyond what is currently technologically possible, while stringing backers along. And the risk of that is they will
start cutting things out because, well, what I said
run out of money before they can get past the technology hurdles I have outlined
I mean seriously, how hard is this to understand, without getting into semantics and fights?
And my Interstellar Citizens blog was clear about this specific part and even in that blog, I clearly said
this:
Without disrespect to anyone, I’m just going to say it: it is my opinion that, this game, as has been pitched, will neverget made. Ever.
There isn’t a single publisher or developer on this planet who could build this game as pitched, let alone for anything less than $150 million.
The original vision which I backed in 2012? Yes, that was totally doable. This new vision? Not a chance.
The technical scope of this game surpasses GTAV, not to mention the likes of Halo.
Do you have any idea what those games cost to make and how long they took?
Do you know how many games which cost $50 million to make took almost five years to release? And they were nowhere in scope as Star Citizen?
and this:
So I really do hope and pray that RSI can pull this off, because if someone like me, with all my experience and expertise on this very same subject and who has spent half a lifetime trying can’t do it without sacrificing something (visual fidelity, performance, scope etc) in the process, and they, with all this money and star talent can’t do it either, then it’s safe to say that it simply can’t be done. At least not in our lifetime.
But, again, as someone in the industry you seem somewhat surprised by this. Have you worked on any project where there was not scope creep? If you have, I'd be seriously surprised. I have yet to work on one, and I don't work on anything as large as SC. Maybe bigger than flappy bird. Fact is that scope creep is a reality. Even if they are saying that they've locked down their features, the scope will still, inevitably, increase at some point as knowledge gaps get filled in. If they have their feature set in place, then that's what we need to hear.
I don't think that they need to even hit their entire feature set. I mean there have been some other great games (Elite: Dangerous for example) who failed to realize all of their features, but still released very good, or great, games. The biggest problem is that people who, seemingly, have industry credibility, like yourself, can catch the ear of someone like the FTC. Maybe SC warrants it, I don't know. What I am saying is that it does nothing but set a bad precedent. There are examples of projects which DO warrant someone stepping in, but I don't think that SC has shown that they do..... yet. Also, if they DO fail to deliver, then they'll likely cause waves of complaints themselves. So they do, ultimately, take their destiny into their own hands. Problem with people like you stepping in is that you hurt further innovation because people are going to be afraid to fail. Granted, people should come to the table with SOMETHING, but I feel like we've seen more innovation in games in the last 2-3 years than in any period in recent memory, and crowd funding has PLENTY to do with that.
But seeing how neither the backers or the momentum seems to die down. Who know what the finall budget for the game will be or what features it will entail.
But the mistake you do is to put the weight on the technical side of things (intentionally or not... But by your own accord.. intentionally would be a good bet) when it is very much a financial one. Tech as we know and have seen get better and cheaper by the minute (and the people who know how to use it.. more and more expensive..)
Now do I personally think this game will see the light of day in any proper way before 2020... Nope... Do i think it by then will have cost over 150mil... Yepp... Will the FTC have made a call by then... Not very likely, they do not want to shoot them self in the foot with overly hasty actions.
As for you and me... Well... You will still be a game developer and hobby media producer and i will still be a media producer and hobby dev. If i was to take a stab at it.
So Derek, let's assume all the things you are saying about scope creep and impossibilities are true... what's the solution?
What should Chris do with SC now that would fix this for you?
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
The game they are now pitching is TECHNOLOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE. Period. End of story.
...and this belief is exactly why you've never produced anything but mediocre games at best. Sorry Derek but it's true. Those games we as Gamers remember as the games we loved and some still play to this day are those games that dared to push back the realm of possibility. Those games that gave us that warm fuzzy feeling inside because we knew we were playing something that we didn't think was possible Technologically. Those games that were created by those that dared to challenge the impossible and worked hard to make it possible. Is Star Citizen one of those games? Only time will tell. Has anything you've ever produced over the many years of your career been one of those games? Definitely not.
Bren
Maybe if people stopped taking what I said out of context, we could have a decent discussion.
My point has nothing to do with them trying to do it. No. It has to do with them increasing the scope of the game, beyond what is currently technologically possible, while stringing backers along. And the risk of that is they will
start cutting things out because, well, what I said
run out of money before they can get past the technology hurdles I have outlined
I mean seriously, how hard is this to understand, without getting into semantics and fights?
And my Interstellar Citizens blog was clear about this specific part and even in that blog, I clearly said
this:
Without disrespect to anyone, I’m just going to say it: it is my opinion that, this game, as has been pitched, will neverget made. Ever.
There isn’t a single publisher or developer on this planet who could build this game as pitched, let alone for anything less than $150 million.
The original vision which I backed in 2012? Yes, that was totally doable. This new vision? Not a chance.
The technical scope of this game surpasses GTAV, not to mention the likes of Halo.
Do you have any idea what those games cost to make and how long they took?
Do you know how many games which cost $50 million to make took almost five years to release? And they were nowhere in scope as Star Citizen?
and this:
So I really do hope and pray that RSI can pull this off, because if someone like me, with all my experience and expertise on this very same subject and who has spent half a lifetime trying can’t do it without sacrificing something (visual fidelity, performance, scope etc) in the process, and they, with all this money and star talent can’t do it either, then it’s safe to say that it simply can’t be done. At least not in our lifetime.
But, again, as someone in the industry you seem somewhat surprised by this. Have you worked on any project where there was not scope creep? If you have, I'd be seriously surprised. I have yet to work on one, and I don't work on anything as large as SC. Maybe bigger than flappy bird. Fact is that scope creep is a reality. Even if they are saying that they've locked down their features, the scope will still, inevitably, increase at some point as knowledge gaps get filled in. If they have their feature set in place, then that's what we need to hear.
I don't think that they need to even hit their entire feature set. I mean there have been some other great games (Elite: Dangerous for example) who failed to realize all of their features, but still released very good, or great, games. The biggest problem is that people who, seemingly, have industry credibility, like yourself, can catch the ear of someone like the FTC. Maybe SC warrants it, I don't know. What I am saying is that it does nothing but set a bad precedent. There are examples of projects which DO warrant someone stepping in, but I don't think that SC has shown that they do..... yet. Also, if they DO fail to deliver, then they'll likely cause waves of complaints themselves. So they do, ultimately, take their destiny into their own hands. Problem with people like you stepping in is that you hurt further innovation because people are going to be afraid to fail. Granted, people should come to the table with SOMETHING, but I feel like we've seen more innovation in games in the last 2-3 years than in any period in recent memory, and crowd funding has PLENTY to do with that.
I get your point, but I think you need to read this, so I don't have to type it all up again.
Game developers are just human beings who happen to make games for a living. If you want to hold us up to higher standards of conduct, then go ahead ...but don't be surprised if we don't uphold them.
But seeing how neither the backers or the momentum seems to die down. Who know what the finall budget for the game will be or what features it will entail.
Really, you figured this how? Their funding took a nose dive starting in June, way ahead of my first blog. And it continues in freefall and the July numbers aren't even out yet.
Unless they start making over $3m per month, the project is doomed. Period.
Game developers are just human beings who happen to make games for a living. If you want to hold us up to higher standards of conduct, then go ahead ...but don't be surprised if we don't uphold them.
So Derek, let's assume all the things you are saying about scope creep and impossibilities are true... what's the solution?
What should Chris do with SC now that would fix this for you?
There is nothing that can be done. The project - as it stands - is doomed. It really is that simple.
The time to save it, back when the scope was manageable, the CryEngine3 was capable of handling that original scope, and they had the money to do it, has past.
That's just the sad reality of the situation.
And the legal liabilities ensuing from the collapse of this project, coupled with whatever the FTC do, is what's going to determine how this all ends.
Game developers are just human beings who happen to make games for a living. If you want to hold us up to higher standards of conduct, then go ahead ...but don't be surprised if we don't uphold them.
With all due respect, Mr. Smart, Did you actually read this article? The person in this article took the money, didn't build the product, spent most of the money on himself and did not give his backers the items he promised to give them when the project was completed (free game, figures, etc.). That isn't what has happened in this case, yet.
I don't care how people make this about me, it won't change the facts. And by the time the dust settles, I will be proven right.
And I mean no disrespect when I say this, but I think you do care. Otherwise, you wouldn't keep making it about you. You specifically made this about you and your game, as I think most people hadn't heard of your game before you started to compare your product as being better than theirs. I watched the steam video of your game. The graphics look very dated. I didn't pay attention to the negative reviews, because the ones I saw had 0 hrs. game time played while they claimed to have played it.
You may be right in the end, you may not be right, but you started to and continue to stir this pot, and I think it does nothing but benefit your game -which I think most people hadn't heard of until you started attacking the competition. It's the 80-20 rule. 20% of the people that learn about your game, regardless of what anyone else says, will purchase and try it out.
There is a reason why you are so invested in this subject that you would log into MMORPG.COM during the noon time (PST) on a Friday to continue to simply repeat the arguments that you've already made, ad nauseam. I'm not sure what that reason is, but it most certainly has something to do with you caring about something (or just hating someone that much).
But seeing how neither the backers or the momentum seems to die down. Who know what the finall budget for the game will be or what features it will entail.
Really, you figured this how? Their funding took a nose dive starting in June, way ahead of my first blog. And it continues in freefall and the July numbers aren't even out yet.
Unless they start making over $3m per month, the project is doomed. Period.
My game industry buddies back that figure up. Pretty much a mil a month per 100 developers. Given that Roberts is more profligate than most, 3 mil is probably accurate. Though it will depend on how much they've bankrolled (as opposed to already spent).
Although I think Roberts would sell out to outside investors first. Claiming it would be best for the game, ya' know. As he did with Microsoft at Digital Anvil. Twice.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Dear Mr. Smart, based on the information that is freely available on the net about you, such as reviews of your games, your posting history of banning, insulting people and threatening with lawsuits for breakfast, where would you rank yourself on a credibility scale from 1-10, as a succesful genre veteran and self declared Internet Warlord ?
Dear Mr. Smart, based on the information that is freely available on the net about you, such as reviews of your games, your posting history of banning, insulting people and threatening with lawsuits for breakfast, where would you rank yourself on a credibility scale from 1-10, as a succesful genre veteran and self declared Internet Warlord ?
LOL, The whole Derek-Smart legacy wrapped up in a single post, awesome!
(I cut the pics out to save space)
"Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game." - SEANMCAD
But seeing how neither the backers or the momentum seems to die down. Who know what the finall budget for the game will be or what features it will entail.
Really, you figured this how? Their funding took a nose dive starting in June, way ahead of my first blog. And it continues in freefall and the July numbers aren't even out yet.
Unless they start making over $3m per month, the project is doomed. Period.
Well... If you look at how the average mob mentality acts and the add a spoon of "patriotism" for the project and a dash of desperation to not look like a fool... Compare that to the F2P market and other KS/IGG campaigns and similar crowdfunding it is not hard to see how this project most likely have more then enough gas left to hit your higher estimate of budget needs. Will it tiake some pleading and scaremongering... Yupp... Is that ethical.. Nope, but it is very effective.
Now i do agree with you on the point that the game will have to be sliced in to even thinner slices than the original plan but as you know... NO such plan actually ever make it past the reality check. Is that in turn a breach of contract... I guess i will have to defer to you on that seeing how i have not read up on U-S trade law much beyond the very basics.
But no... I do not think this project is doomed. Mostlyu because it has enough momentum to find funding and they have a MASSIVE amount of wiggleroom when it comes to scaling features up and down...
Really, you figured this how? Their funding took a nose dive starting in June, way ahead of my first blog. And it continues in freefall and the July numbers aren't even out yet.
Unless they start making over $3m per month, the project is doomed. Period.
Warning: the following contains a lot of speculative numbers and assumptions (insert your own and recalculate)
Its interesting for me to read about the unsustainability of this project. CIG currently has 255 employees. Lets assume that ON AVERAGE every employee costs 6500 $ per month (source:
Thats about 1,7 million $ in wages per month. Lets assume CIG spends another half million on contractors and infrastructure (=most of the hardware has already been bought by now). Of the 85 M$ raised for the project quite a bit has been spend already, but in previous years the number of employees was significantly lower. "...Our internal headcount has gone from five at the end of 2012 to 59 at the end of 2013 to 183 at the end of 2014 and to 255 now," (quote Chris Roberts).
In my guestimate (!) there are 60 M$ ish left. With a spending of 2.2 M$ per month that amounts to about 27 months (= 2 years 3 months) or until November 2017. You can add to that every additional money coming in the next two years ... if its another 11 M$ (and thats an extremely conservative estimate) you get another half a year (until May 2018) covered.
For comparison ... in the last two years on the average around 2.5 M$ were added per month through crowdfunding. June 2015 is a slow month as everyone waits for the announced SC GamesCon news in August 2015 (see other threads in this sub-forum for the expected news shown at GamesCom --> Multi-Crew Ships, big maps based on the revised CryEngine) and the FPS module shortly after GamesCom (see the weekly Star Marine Updates, linked also here in the MMORPG SC sub-forum).
I personally expect Squadron 42 to be ready sometime in 2016. I suspect it will sell well. Lets assume 650.000 copies in addition to those who pledged (taken from the example Elite:Dangerous .. shows approx the size of the interested buyer segment above and beyond the initial backers). At 55 $ per game that would be around 36 M$ from sales. Production costs a bit, at some time CIG owners want some profit too, all the CIG eymployess want a bonus for completion ... . Lets say .. another 14 M$ are available for pushing the development of the Persistent Universe forward. Its December 2018 now.
Even with a moderate delay the persistent Universe should launch sometime in 2017. In the meantime some people will buy Part 3 of the SQ42 missions .... gets you into 2019. etc. etc.
IMHO not as "unsustainable" as some people claim.
Have fun
PS:
>>July numbers aren't even out yet.>>>
They are there for anyone to see, constantly. Updated every hour. And the trend is going up again in July compared to June.
What you call a "nosedive" was still another million dollars in June. Week 30 was around a quarter million. And that is during a lull, when everyone is waiting for GamesCom.
Remind us again, how much money is coming in from Steam Early Access for your "Line of Defense" ? How much do those 4 (in words: FOUR) peak concurrent users add to the pot every month ?
Not that anyone could tell you what to do with your money but... well... in the light of the actual debattes (i.e. LoD financial situation) it is questionable.
Not that anyone could tell you what to do with your money but... well... in the light of the actual debattes (i.e. LoD financial situation) it is questionable.
Are you questioning Mr. Smarts personal choice of transportation? How is this relevant what the man does with his personal income. I honestly don't get the connection at all. Maybe to you that's a small fortune so Mr., Smart is somehow now squandering money, his money I will remind you.
Did I miss something is Mr., Smart running a kick starter campaign and using it to finance his personal "extravagant" lifestyle? Please explain so I can understand where you are coming from.
Not that anyone could tell you what to do with your money but... well... in the light of the actual debattes (i.e. LoD financial situation) it is questionable.
Are you questioning Mr. Smarts personal choice of transportation? How is this relevant what the man does with his personal income. I honestly don't get the connection at all. Maybe to you that's a small fortune so Mr., Smart is somehow now squandering money, his money I will remind you.
Did I miss something is Mr., Smart running a kick starter campaign and using it to finance his personal "extravagant" lifestyle? Please explain so I can understand where you are coming from.
No but he was kinda hinting at that perhaps Roberts spent his money in less then biz-focused ways. (by in the words of smart engageing in neopotism and other un-savoury ways) so it is not entierly irrelevant either. =P
whether the game gets finished or not, it must be worrying for CIG how much negativity there is for SC. kind of like where Blizzard is now: do we still trust them to deliver on promises?
Not that anyone could tell you what to do with your money but... well... in the light of the actual debattes (i.e. LoD financial situation) it is questionable.
Are you questioning Mr. Smarts personal choice of transportation? How is this relevant what the man does with his personal income. I honestly don't get the connection at all. Maybe to you that's a small fortune so Mr., Smart is somehow now squandering money, his money I will remind you.
Did I miss something is Mr., Smart running a kick starter campaign and using it to finance his personal "extravagant" lifestyle? Please explain so I can understand where you are coming from.
As I said no one can and should tell Mr. Smart how to spend his money. Yes for me a Tesla P85 for several hundred thousend dollar is a lot! But I know enough people who have money and overall I have no problem with rich people if they act like reasonable humans who do not talk down to people. I don´t know for sure how he made his money and that is not of my concern as long as it is aquired legal.
But he came up with how CIG is making expensive flights or is spending money not on the game. Also stating to have proof but not delivering is another questionable maneuver. The only proof that always comes up are his own blogs.
The news for business newbies is... flying is necessary... still. And it´s directly connected to the business of game development with several studios around the world.
Yes, in my opinion Mr. Eric Peterson (ex- CIG employee... if you don´t know him -> Mr. Smarts knows for sure) was always suspicious and of course there will be money that was not spend that effectively during development. But is that enough for starting such rage?
The thing is... it IS about Mr. Smart, his past, his way of treating others. his whole attitude. It´s about promoting his own game and fulfilling his legacy *cough*. It IS about game ethics which I believe Mr. Smart does not follow. If you state to have a PhD (or two as he recently wrote) then you should be able to show proof if asked. If you bought your PhD... well then proof is not easy.
Everywhere he appears... he bashes and is riding against the wind. He can´t sit still. And you can´t say that all gaming forums are full of SC cult fanboys... that would be a lazy lame excuse. I don´t know (only guesses from observations) what fuels him but he is not concentrating on the important things... his game and the promises he made.
He started the whole discussion and he keeps fueling it.
We respond and !of course! people use his own weapons against him. He comes up with his biased opinions on the Internet and we have a quiver full a arrows. What do you expect when Mr. Smart goes full in instead of sitting back, finishing his game and... well just proof things instead of babbling all the time.
Originally posted by adamlotus75 whether the game gets finished or not, it must be worrying for CIG how much negativity there is for SC. kind of like where Blizzard is now: do we still trust them to deliver on promises?
Where is that amount of negativity you speak of? All negativity comes from haters, evil people, trolls or Mr. Smart. The thing is... now that Mr. Smart and most of his alt accounts have been banned from the RSI forums it has become much more civilized.
Hard but appropriate criticism is all I can see on several forums and gaming websites. Criticism is good and needed. But spitting venon is stupid and narrow minded. The whole RSI forum is full of worries, criticism and sometimes whining. That is completely normal for such a community and nothing new in the gaming world. It´s a passionate pool of hardcore and not so hardcore spacesim fans.
And being passionate for something is better than sticking to something like grim death.
If you search for errors then you will always find them... in everything.
Comments
I would never listen to a word Smart has to say. His games pissed me off. The fact that he is charging money for the load of crap he just released should be a crime.
However, he may be right in saying CIG cannot possibly deliver everything they have promised.
Recently they just dropped the co-op mode for SQ42, so it looks like they are shedding features as needed.
Now Erin Roberts is letting it out here and there all quiet like that co-op will be relegated to limited replay's in the Arena Commander mode.
While I support SC, this is a big disappointment to me.
Because they can't. That's why.
The game they are now pitching is TECHNOLOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE. Period. End of story. And that's precisely what sparked my first Interstellar Citizens blog.
And the fact that they're pissing around with CryEngine3, is testament to just one aspect of that.
Not to mention the word play over scope creep.
And now - as expected - they've started cutting things. Which means that the $85m game that was pitched and promised, is now going to be less of a game, and in turn, be worth less than what some the backers who pledged $85m, expected.
And the FTC has clear rules and guidelines about specifically that sort of thing.
I don't care how people make this about me, it won't change the facts. And by the time the dust settles, I will be proven right.
And as I said in this comment, this has nothing to do with anything personal against Chris Roberts. At all. There are much bigger issues in play now.
Game developers are just human beings who happen to make games for a living.
If you want to hold us up to higher standards of conduct, then go ahead
...but don't be surprised if we don't uphold them.
You know what else was Technologically Impossible once? YouTube, Google, every single game that's come out this year. Oh, and not that long ago, by the way, but you were there. Also, I find it interesting that you're speaking witin the context of CryEngine 3 as though that's their sandbox. That's kind of like the same engine arguments that we get in SWTOR forums. Remember that they have fully open code. It's entirely possible that there is little still recognizable as CryEngine 3 in there. Plus, based on my understanding, Crytek were lending PLENTY of resources at the outset, so if that continued, they had engine expertise from the beginning. I'm actually surprised that an industry expert would actually use the word Technologically Impossible. Don't you feel like that sounds like a pretty bold and damning statement? In an industry where creativity and innovation has already, seemingly, run dry, do you feel like you're helping yourself by suggesting that this is impossible? Especially considering some of the other emerging tech? Some of the things we're doing with games that were simply not possible, even 10 years ago?
That's fine that you want to be right, but I don't understand how you feel like your posts aren't to be considered conduct detrimental to your businesses. John Smedley fell into the same trap and, essentially, single-handedly crippled a portfolio of games for a period of time. As some responsible for operating these types of games, I don't care whether you own them or if you're simply an executive, you need to remain political. You say you know your audience but you clearly don't, because you managed to offend more than you swayed. In addition to that, you seem contradictory in your remarks. Your criticisms of other games (not just SC) are areas which you and your own games show critical weaknesses, or failures. Your inability to take accountability for your actions or products is unbecoming of an executive. Honestly, I think that you are able to make bold statements without coming off looking like a child. Do you really think that you'll get an unbiased review after all this? Do you think you've somehow helped Alganon? LoD? Or have you just put them in the grave?
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
Please Derek... you repeat yourself. Do have something new to say or do you still transfer your personal (dis-)abilities on other persons? You did it in the past and you still do it.
May I point out this post from you?
http://steamcommunity.com/app/266620/discussions/1/613936039651282048/#c613936673337028989
You state:
"e.g. I wanted a seamless space<->planet transition without using jump anomalies but it wasn't practical and the middleware engine we used couldn't make it possible.
Also, those four planetary scenes on Lyrius were supposed to be one massive seamless area in which you could drive/fly to without jump anomalies. Couldn't happen. And I actually did that with All Aspect Warfare and Angle Of Attack, both of my 2009 games which use an in-house engine; which is what I wanted to do again with LOD until I had to scrap it all and go with middleware engines without having to re-invent the wheel. Again, compromises"
You jar on our nerves... really.
Also a famous quote regarding impossibilities:
IMPOSSIBLE IS NOTHING.
Impossible is just a big word
thrown around by small men
who find it easier to live in a
world they've been given
than explore the power
they have to change it.
Impossible is not a fact.
It's an opinion.
Impossible is not a declaration,
it's a dare.
Impossible is potential.
Impossible is temporary.
IMPOSSIBLE IS NOTHING.
Because YOU cannot do it does not mean that everyone else is not able to do it.
Please remind us again how awesome your own game (Line of Defense) is and how much more capable it is compared to this failure called "Star Citizen":
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/437475/Derek-Smart-Bans-Journalist-of-Biggest-German-PC-Games-Print-Magazine-for-TestingReporting-CrashesBugs-on-STEAM.html
After all ... you have worked 5 years on LoD while Star Citizen started in October 2012. And your peak concurrent users (all 4 of them over the last 3 months) will surely scream for co-op gameplay. Well .. you just banned one of the 4 (=Benjamin Danneberg). The other one is a Valve moderator called Scream. So ... the remaining 2 can do co-op. Which means .. YOU plus some unknown poor guy.
Have fun
...and this belief is exactly why you've never produced anything but mediocre games at best. Sorry Derek but it's true. Those games we as Gamers remember as the games we loved and some still play to this day are those games that dared to push back the realm of possibility. Those games that gave us that warm fuzzy feeling inside because we knew we were playing something that we didn't think was possible Technologically. Those games that were created by those that dared to challenge the impossible and worked hard to make it possible. Is Star Citizen one of those games? Only time will tell. Has anything you've ever produced over the many years of your career been one of those games? Definitely not.
Bren
while(horse==dead)
{
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Maybe if people stopped taking what I said out of context, we could have a decent discussion.
My point has nothing to do with them trying to do it. No. It has to do with them increasing the scope of the game, beyond what is currently technologically possible, while stringing backers along. And the risk of that is they will
I mean seriously, how hard is this to understand, without getting into semantics and fights?
And my Interstellar Citizens blog was clear about this specific part and even in that blog, I clearly said
this:
Without disrespect to anyone, I’m just going to say it: it is my opinion that, this game, as has been pitched, will neverget made. Ever.
There isn’t a single publisher or developer on this planet who could build this game as pitched, let alone for anything less than $150 million.
The original vision which I backed in 2012? Yes, that was totally doable. This new vision? Not a chance.
The technical scope of this game surpasses GTAV, not to mention the likes of Halo.
Do you have any idea what those games cost to make and how long they took?
Do you know how many games which cost $50 million to make took almost five years to release? And they were nowhere in scope as Star Citizen?
and this:
So I really do hope and pray that RSI can pull this off, because if someone like me, with all my experience and expertise on this very same subject and who has spent half a lifetime trying can’t do it without sacrificing something (visual fidelity, performance, scope etc) in the process, and they, with all this money and star talent can’t do it either, then it’s safe to say that it simply can’t be done. At least not in our lifetime.
Game developers are just human beings who happen to make games for a living.
If you want to hold us up to higher standards of conduct, then go ahead
...but don't be surprised if we don't uphold them.
But, again, as someone in the industry you seem somewhat surprised by this. Have you worked on any project where there was not scope creep? If you have, I'd be seriously surprised. I have yet to work on one, and I don't work on anything as large as SC. Maybe bigger than flappy bird. Fact is that scope creep is a reality. Even if they are saying that they've locked down their features, the scope will still, inevitably, increase at some point as knowledge gaps get filled in. If they have their feature set in place, then that's what we need to hear.
I don't think that they need to even hit their entire feature set. I mean there have been some other great games (Elite: Dangerous for example) who failed to realize all of their features, but still released very good, or great, games. The biggest problem is that people who, seemingly, have industry credibility, like yourself, can catch the ear of someone like the FTC. Maybe SC warrants it, I don't know. What I am saying is that it does nothing but set a bad precedent. There are examples of projects which DO warrant someone stepping in, but I don't think that SC has shown that they do..... yet. Also, if they DO fail to deliver, then they'll likely cause waves of complaints themselves. So they do, ultimately, take their destiny into their own hands. Problem with people like you stepping in is that you hurt further innovation because people are going to be afraid to fail. Granted, people should come to the table with SOMETHING, but I feel like we've seen more innovation in games in the last 2-3 years than in any period in recent memory, and crowd funding has PLENTY to do with that.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
Yeah you are right Mr S...
It can not be done for 2 or 50 or 84 mil.
But seeing how neither the backers or the momentum seems to die down. Who know what the finall budget for the game will be or what features it will entail.
But the mistake you do is to put the weight on the technical side of things (intentionally or not... But by your own accord.. intentionally would be a good bet) when it is very much a financial one. Tech as we know and have seen get better and cheaper by the minute (and the people who know how to use it.. more and more expensive..)
Now do I personally think this game will see the light of day in any proper way before 2020... Nope... Do i think it by then will have cost over 150mil... Yepp... Will the FTC have made a call by then... Not very likely, they do not want to shoot them self in the foot with overly hasty actions.
As for you and me... Well... You will still be a game developer and hobby media producer and i will still be a media producer and hobby dev. If i was to take a stab at it.
This have been a good conversation
So Derek, let's assume all the things you are saying about scope creep and impossibilities are true... what's the solution?
What should Chris do with SC now that would fix this for you?
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I get your point, but I think you need to read this, so I don't have to type it all up again.
Game developers are just human beings who happen to make games for a living.
If you want to hold us up to higher standards of conduct, then go ahead
...but don't be surprised if we don't uphold them.
Really, you figured this how? Their funding took a nose dive starting in June, way ahead of my first blog. And it continues in freefall and the July numbers aren't even out yet.
Unless they start making over $3m per month, the project is doomed. Period.
Game developers are just human beings who happen to make games for a living.
If you want to hold us up to higher standards of conduct, then go ahead
...but don't be surprised if we don't uphold them.
There is nothing that can be done. The project - as it stands - is doomed. It really is that simple.
The time to save it, back when the scope was manageable, the CryEngine3 was capable of handling that original scope, and they had the money to do it, has past.
That's just the sad reality of the situation.
And the legal liabilities ensuing from the collapse of this project, coupled with whatever the FTC do, is what's going to determine how this all ends.
Game developers are just human beings who happen to make games for a living.
If you want to hold us up to higher standards of conduct, then go ahead
...but don't be surprised if we don't uphold them.
My game industry buddies back that figure up. Pretty much a mil a month per 100 developers. Given that Roberts is more profligate than most, 3 mil is probably accurate. Though it will depend on how much they've bankrolled (as opposed to already spent).
Although I think Roberts would sell out to outside investors first. Claiming it would be best for the game, ya' know. As he did with Microsoft at Digital Anvil. Twice.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Dear Mr. Smart, based on the information that is freely available on the net about you, such as reviews of your games, your posting history of banning, insulting people and threatening with lawsuits for breakfast, where would you rank yourself on a credibility scale from 1-10, as a succesful genre veteran and self declared Internet Warlord ?
LOL, The whole Derek-Smart legacy wrapped up in a single post, awesome!
(I cut the pics out to save space)
Well... If you look at how the average mob mentality acts and the add a spoon of "patriotism" for the project and a dash of desperation to not look like a fool... Compare that to the F2P market and other KS/IGG campaigns and similar crowdfunding it is not hard to see how this project most likely have more then enough gas left to hit your higher estimate of budget needs. Will it tiake some pleading and scaremongering... Yupp... Is that ethical.. Nope, but it is very effective.
Now i do agree with you on the point that the game will have to be sliced in to even thinner slices than the original plan but as you know... NO such plan actually ever make it past the reality check. Is that in turn a breach of contract... I guess i will have to defer to you on that seeing how i have not read up on U-S trade law much beyond the very basics.
But no... I do not think this project is doomed. Mostlyu because it has enough momentum to find funding and they have a MASSIVE amount of wiggleroom when it comes to scaling features up and down...
This have been a good conversation
Warning: the following contains a lot of speculative numbers and assumptions (insert your own and recalculate)
Its interesting for me to read about the unsustainability of this project. CIG currently has 255 employees. Lets assume that ON AVERAGE every employee costs 6500 $ per month (source:
http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/computer-programmer/salary
Thats about 1,7 million $ in wages per month. Lets assume CIG spends another half million on contractors and infrastructure (=most of the hardware has already been bought by now). Of the 85 M$ raised for the project quite a bit has been spend already, but in previous years the number of employees was significantly lower. "...Our internal headcount has gone from five at the end of 2012 to 59 at the end of 2013 to 183 at the end of 2014 and to 255 now," (quote Chris Roberts).
In my guestimate (!) there are 60 M$ ish left. With a spending of 2.2 M$ per month that amounts to about 27 months (= 2 years 3 months) or until November 2017. You can add to that every additional money coming in the next two years ... if its another 11 M$ (and thats an extremely conservative estimate) you get another half a year (until May 2018) covered.
For comparison ... in the last two years on the average around 2.5 M$ were added per month through crowdfunding. June 2015 is a slow month as everyone waits for the announced SC GamesCon news in August 2015 (see other threads in this sub-forum for the expected news shown at GamesCom --> Multi-Crew Ships, big maps based on the revised CryEngine) and the FPS module shortly after GamesCom (see the weekly Star Marine Updates, linked also here in the MMORPG SC sub-forum).
I personally expect Squadron 42 to be ready sometime in 2016. I suspect it will sell well. Lets assume 650.000 copies in addition to those who pledged (taken from the example Elite:Dangerous .. shows approx the size of the interested buyer segment above and beyond the initial backers). At 55 $ per game that would be around 36 M$ from sales. Production costs a bit, at some time CIG owners want some profit too, all the CIG eymployess want a bonus for completion ... . Lets say .. another 14 M$ are available for pushing the development of the Persistent Universe forward. Its December 2018 now.
Even with a moderate delay the persistent Universe should launch sometime in 2017. In the meantime some people will buy Part 3 of the SQ42 missions .... gets you into 2019. etc. etc.
IMHO not as "unsustainable" as some people claim.
Have fun
PS:
>>July numbers aren't even out yet.>>>
They are there for anyone to see, constantly. Updated every hour. And the trend is going up again in July compared to June.
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/funding-goals
What you call a "nosedive" was still another million dollars in June. Week 30 was around a quarter million. And that is during a lull, when everyone is waiting for GamesCom.
Remind us again, how much money is coming in from Steam Early Access for your "Line of Defense" ? How much do those 4 (in words: FOUR) peak concurrent users add to the pot every month ?
Finally someone who did a proper calculation.
Regarding calculations:
Mr. Smart... accusing others of spending money the wrong way...
https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/512795425288384512/photo/1
https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/626835081924100096?lang=de
Not that anyone could tell you what to do with your money but... well... in the light of the actual debattes (i.e. LoD financial situation) it is questionable.
Are you questioning Mr. Smarts personal choice of transportation? How is this relevant what the man does with his personal income. I honestly don't get the connection at all. Maybe to you that's a small fortune so Mr., Smart is somehow now squandering money, his money I will remind you.
Did I miss something is Mr., Smart running a kick starter campaign and using it to finance his personal "extravagant" lifestyle? Please explain so I can understand where you are coming from.
No but he was kinda hinting at that perhaps Roberts spent his money in less then biz-focused ways. (by in the words of smart engageing in neopotism and other un-savoury ways) so it is not entierly irrelevant either. =P
This have been a good conversation
As I said no one can and should tell Mr. Smart how to spend his money. Yes for me a Tesla P85 for several hundred thousend dollar is a lot! But I know enough people who have money and overall I have no problem with rich people if they act like reasonable humans who do not talk down to people. I don´t know for sure how he made his money and that is not of my concern as long as it is aquired legal.
But he came up with how CIG is making expensive flights or is spending money not on the game. Also stating to have proof but not delivering is another questionable maneuver. The only proof that always comes up are his own blogs.
The news for business newbies is... flying is necessary... still. And it´s directly connected to the business of game development with several studios around the world.
Yes, in my opinion Mr. Eric Peterson (ex- CIG employee... if you don´t know him -> Mr. Smarts knows for sure) was always suspicious and of course there will be money that was not spend that effectively during development. But is that enough for starting such rage?
The thing is... it IS about Mr. Smart, his past, his way of treating others. his whole attitude. It´s about promoting his own game and fulfilling his legacy *cough*. It IS about game ethics which I believe Mr. Smart does not follow. If you state to have a PhD (or two as he recently wrote) then you should be able to show proof if asked. If you bought your PhD... well then proof is not easy.
Everywhere he appears... he bashes and is riding against the wind. He can´t sit still. And you can´t say that all gaming forums are full of SC cult fanboys... that would be a lazy lame excuse. I don´t know (only guesses from observations) what fuels him but he is not concentrating on the important things... his game and the promises he made.
He started the whole discussion and he keeps fueling it.
We respond and !of course! people use his own weapons against him. He comes up with his biased opinions on the Internet and we have a quiver full a arrows. What do you expect when Mr. Smart goes full in instead of sitting back, finishing his game and... well just proof things instead of babbling all the time.
Where is that amount of negativity you speak of? All negativity comes from haters, evil people, trolls or Mr. Smart. The thing is... now that Mr. Smart and most of his alt accounts have been banned from the RSI forums it has become much more civilized.
Hard but appropriate criticism is all I can see on several forums and gaming websites. Criticism is good and needed. But spitting venon is stupid and narrow minded. The whole RSI forum is full of worries, criticism and sometimes whining. That is completely normal for such a community and nothing new in the gaming world. It´s a passionate pool of hardcore and not so hardcore spacesim fans.
And being passionate for something is better than sticking to something like grim death.
If you search for errors then you will always find them... in everything.