I think what they mean is, a 25 yr old, despite being knowledgeable about games, and despite having played and tried most of whats available out there, cannot have been present in those years and had those experiences that people had at time time. Some games even had massive changes to them so that the experience you have now, is nothing like what it was like 15 yrs ago.
When people with knowledge about games, pretend to have played at the actually time of the games release or heyday, thats when its disingenous, and btw, also belittles the effort they've made to know the genre, and the care they have taken to learn about it. That should be enough on its own.
I agree with your sentiment about nostalgia. Ive got it in spades for EQ1. However having played EQ1 for so long, I also realise it is way more than nostalgia. That mmo's as a whole have changed dramatically, and not for the better in my opinion. It might make me old to say that. I recognise the irony. But I think alot of the younger gamers are also unhappy with how infantalised their games have become. How obvious the carrot on the stick.
Originally posted by hallucigenocide because starting with "as a vanilla player" you win every argument (atleast that's what wow players seem to think)
it works the same way for "as a UO/DAOC/EQ1 veteran"
That behavior is not tied to WoW only.
yeah i figured it'd be the same with other games..
And then you have people talk about unknown games from God knows when...meridian was it? Playing game for 20 years doesn't make someone's opinion more valid.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Is it reasonable to assume (yes, I know the meme) that your assessment of those two statements would be more accurate than that of someone who was born in the late 90s?
Perhaps. But you need to use Appeal to Authority argument with a great deal of caution.
For one, it requires the presentation of credentials. "I remember when Goldshire was a seething hotbed of nelf strippers and sexting," or whatever you think will establish you as "legit" (and we're back to the OP's problem, right? Credentials? On the internet?)
Two, it requires that you are an actual, applicable authority. Being there to play the game in 1997 doesn't mean you were raiding in 1997 (that would be hard to establish, but whatever). Showing a PhD in biochemistry doesn't make you a credentialed expert in Orbital Dynamics. "Zomg I was playing that game" doesn't mean you were out of the newbie zones at the time.
And three, it requires that you voluntarily assume the mantle of Blowhard, lecture mode activate. Tedious and yawnable.
In general terms, its best to view the application of AtoA arguments as a weak direction to proceed, and an even weaker direction to read. We'd all be better off if everyone left them alone entirely.
As a fan of Videogame Nation, I do like their look at retro games. But some of them who were supposed to be playing games in the eighties simply look too young. I am going to mention Aoife Wilson because she looks in her late twenties, but a couple of the guys look in their mid thirties' and talk about playing games which came out in the eighties. So they were five to ten and she was about five years old?
I
I have to wonder... have you considered that maybe they played them later on? I'm 36 yet my youngest brother is 17, he's played many old school games, because he grew up with the ability to do so, he had my genesis, SNES, as well as NES. As well as a huge library of games to choose from. I also let him play on my SWG account when I'd watch him at my apartment when he was really young. He has tons of experience with old school games.
Its possible but the journalists certainly talk as if they were there back in the day. Also if you leave a MMO too long it can radically change.
As to other posters who think I am angry about this, no just bemused really.
I've noticed this too in alot of video game reviews etc too.
Buncha hipsters.
I've been pc gaming since 1993, before that it was only NES when we'd stay round friends' houses. Never had NES or "tv games" as they were called when I was growing up in South Africa, just a 386 with never enough memory to play enough games (until I figured out how to edit the boot file and allocate more memory). I've played more pc game hours than anyone I know, that is a fact. I spent a lot of my years with mental health problems, so wasn't working and so had a lot of free time. It had a detrimental effect on my life, but I know for a fact I've played more games (including MMO's) than most, and definitely anyone I know personally, most of whom are gamers.
In today's world it seems they think if you play a few minutes of something then you're a fan who's seen it, played it and know all about it.
I remember seeing DAoC for the first time, I couldn't believe it was an online game. Coming from South Africa in the 90's we only had 56k and could only use it once a month for an hour or two because of the cost. When I moved to England damn things changed. MMO's........once upon a time they were truly worlds you could escape into. Now they are just games focused on making money, and attracting the most players, therefore ending up filled with idiots who have no clue.
No idea why I rambled off and this clearly has nothing to do with the OP. Just know I was there and saw the evolution of modern (90's onward) pc gaming.
I've noticed this too in alot of video game reviews etc too.
Buncha hipsters.
I've been pc gaming since 1993, before that it was only NES when we'd stay round friends' houses. Never had NES or "tv games" as they were called when I was growing up in South Africa, just a 386 with never enough memory to play enough games (until I figured out how to edit the boot file and allocate more memory). I've played more pc game hours than anyone I know, that is a fact. I spent a lot of my years with mental health problems, so wasn't working and so had a lot of free time. It had a detrimental effect on my life, but I know for a fact I've played more games (including MMO's) than most, and definitely anyone I know personally, most of whom are gamers.
In today's world it seems they think if you play a few minutes of something then you're a fan who's seen it, played it and know all about it.
I remember seeing DAoC for the first time, I couldn't believe it was an online game. Coming from South Africa in the 90's we only had 56k and could only use it once a month for an hour or two because of the cost. When I moved to England damn things changed. MMO's........once upon a time they were truly worlds you could escape into. Now they are just games focused on making money, and attracting the most players, therefore ending up filled with idiots who have no clue.
No idea why I rambled off and this clearly has nothing to do with the OP. Just know I was there and saw the evolution of modern (90's onward) pc gaming.
I guess people who were around then who have seen the MMO genre evolve into a spoon-fed community feel like they need to constantly tell everyone about it constantly? Valid points highlighted in green. Not saying i disagree with your post btw.
I think people honestly do that. I just don't believe it if I see their forum join date is not that old. So you were there at DAoC launch, but you didn't sign up at MMORPG until 12 years later? Skecthy. Plus, there is no way everyone who says they were there could be there. EQ/DAoC would have had millions of players at launch lol
Originally posted by Golelorn I think people honestly do that. I just don't believe it if I see their forum join date is not that old. So you were there at DAoC launch, but you didn't sign up at MMORPG until 12 years later?
It's interesting that you use DAoC as your example. Most DAoCers used the VNBoards until they went down. They were the goto board for DAoC, especially since that's where the Team Leads were.
Someone that was around then would know that.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Golelorn I think people honestly do that. I just don't believe it if I see their forum join date is not that old. So you were there at DAoC launch, but you didn't sign up at MMORPG until 12 years later? Skecthy. Plus, there is no way everyone who says they were there could be there. EQ/DAoC would have had millions of players at launch lol
I didn't sign up here until after the NGE hit SWG. I knew of the site of course, read articles, browsed forums etc... SO join date really means nothing considering the first MMO I tried was DAOC at the tail end of 2002 (almost a full 3 years prior). I only dabbled in DAOC of course, I had no idea what i was doing, and only picked it up to get the idea of what an MMORPG was, due to learning of them in an article about SWG. SO I literally went out bought a PC, and two games UO and DAOC, all because of this one game coming up. UO was certainly not my thing, shortest lived MMORPG experience for me. DAOC though was fun and the PVP mechanic blew me away which I only saw the surface of, by the time I was doing that SWG was about to release.
Long story short, had it not been for SWGs NGE, as well as the long standing, continuing drought of any game close to being like pre-cu SWG, I would possibly have never signed up here, I'd still be too busy playing games I actually wanna play/see...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I did not sign up on mmorpg.com till long after I stopped playing Everquest 1. I was a mod on the server board for my EQ server. I dont know how I can explain it properly to those of you who never saw this, but our server boards were a riot. The amount of amazing flame material and general banter and ranting material the game gave the community boards was IMMENSE. - We did not come to this website because we did not need it. We had plenty of entertainment elsewhere.
I started playing EQ1 in 99, but didnt start raiding till the end of Velious, so lets say 14-15 years for me (I wont look it up and I dont remember the year), but off the top of my head the sites I used were the server boards, Allakazam, Graffe, Fires of Heaven, Steel Warrior and probably some other mmorpg like sites - but I honestly dont remember them. I do know, that mmorpg.com was not even in the mix. I dont remember when I first browsed this site. I do know I did not use it nor need it for Everquest related information. And since I was a raider in a pretty committed raiding guild until Luclin and VT, afterwhich I joined a seriously hardcore serverwide top 10 guild, I didnt have time to play anything else. So I had no interest in whatever else this website at that time covered.
my point is, that in this debate this website is irrelevant, and join date is irrelevant, because people like me just joined eventually, when we migrated away from our first mmo's.
I was aware of relatively early MMORPGs such Ultima Online and EverQuest, but didn't play them because they didn't look interesting at the time. The reasons I didn't think they looked interesting then are reasons I still wouldn't be interested in playing the same game today, even with upgraded graphics. EverQuest was far too grindy, and I wasn't interested in getting killed by random people in non-consensual PVP without any semblance of balance in Ultima Online.
Originally posted by Quizzical I was aware of relatively early MMORPGs such Ultima Online and EverQuest, but didn't play them because they didn't look interesting at the time. The reasons I didn't think they looked interesting then are reasons I still wouldn't be interested in playing the same game today, even with upgraded graphics. EverQuest was far too grindy, and I wasn't interested in getting killed by random people in non-consensual PVP without any semblance of balance in Ultima Online.
hmm ya know Quizzical , i read many of your posts and agree with alot of what you bring ... but you missed a great time in uo .. and my point is balance ruins many of the so called mmos that we see today and other older games (lookin at you Wow) that have been ruined by players screaming for balance .. ..
All the greatest challenges and accomplishments imo .. come by overcoming the odds .. which in many of the first generation of games came from closley knit teamwork trying to find ways to tilt the scales into your favor ..wether pvp or pve .. The diveristy and strength/weaknesses of classes and enviroment that brought imbalance .. also deleivered the most satisfaction and fun ..
Originally posted by GolelornI think people honestly do that. I just don't believe it if I see their forum join date is not that old. So you were there at DAoC launch, but you didn't sign up at MMORPG until 12 years later? Skecthy. Plus, there is no way everyone who says they were there could be there. EQ/DAoC would have had millions of players at launch lol
There is some merit in this, but people may just stay on their MMO of choice forums, why come here? Years pass and then they decided to join us here. So I would never use joining date as proof of anything.
Originally posted by Quizzical I was aware of relatively early MMORPGs such Ultima Online and EverQuest, but didn't play them because they didn't look interesting at the time. The reasons I didn't think they looked interesting then are reasons I still wouldn't be interested in playing the same game today, even with upgraded graphics. EverQuest was far too grindy, and I wasn't interested in getting killed by random people in non-consensual PVP without any semblance of balance in Ultima Online.
UO released Trammel to save the game from the PvP ganking which was killing the game and making players leave in masses for other games, and became a 200% better game then. From your posts here, you would have enjoyed it.
You might be right about that. I wasn't aware of Trammel when it launched, as I wasn't following how released games got patched that closely. In retrospect, I was used to consoles with cartridges that are impossible to patch after launch, and while I had more recently seen patches delivered online, I hadn't yet seen anything that radically overhauled a game.
But it was also around that time that I picked up Infantry, and then shortly after quitting Infantry, I got Europa Universalis II. That's two of the all time great games right there, so it's not like I had nothing else to play. Even if I had known that I would have liked UO on Trammel, I probably still wouldn't have played it at the time because I wouldn't have liked it as much as Infantry. (I tend to play one game at a time.) By the time I quit EU2, it was well into 2003.
As soon as personA says "back in the old days, when WoW used to be good", I stop reading/listening.
To anyone who fakes playing an old game, why does it really matter? Just let the person discredit themselves and stop talking to them.
The implication here being: clearly WOW was not just good, but great back in the old days (as evidenced by how popular it became) and didn't get worse with age but actually became much better (evidenced by rising popularity.)
Totally agree. Players know quality when they see it.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
There is this thing in gaming where people like to say they were in that old MMO, they played that old game. But you have to question, were they really there?
Now this has been questioned on here before, I remember a guy once saying something like "It seems to be fashionable to say you were in DAOC." I think he was right but the thing is, we can't see each other on forums, it is when you can see the person and they look like they just got out of university it gets a bit much.
As a fan of Videogame Nation, I do like their look at retro games. But some of them who were supposed to be playing games in the eighties simply look too young. I am going to mention Aoife Wilson because she looks in her late twenties, but a couple of the guys look in their mid thirties' and talk about playing games which came out in the eighties. So they were five to ten and she was about five years old?
It does stretch your belief a bit. It seems gaming journalists even more than players like to think they have been playing for the entre history of gaming.
I suppose this happens in other hobbies too, sports fans who say they saw that match, presenters who talk like they were there in the 1960's. But come on when you can see the person cannot be that old it just starts to look silly.
The same reason people claim to know celebrities be, able to talk to ghosts or say they've been kidnapped by aliens, to draw attention to themselves.
However as to your question about whether a 5 to 10 year old wouldn't have played video games, that's frankly just a crock of shit. And sorry but I just can't think of a more polite way to say that. I was a kid when the coin operated arcade games really hit their stride. Lunar Lander, Berzerk, Asteroids, Asteroids 2 Pacman, Space Invaders, Missile Command, Donkey Kong, Super Mario Brothers, Super Punchout, etc. I was there to see them all shinny and new. Made quite an impact on me. And then watched over the next decade as the arcade scene nearly died. Only to be resurrected by two games, Street Fighter 2 and Mortal Combat.
Now I do agree that there are those that fudge their credentials or selectively rewrite history when it comes to their own gaming history, but to simply judge them because you FEEL they look to young is more than a bit unfair.
When Dragon Slayer first came out I was hooked.... 50 dollars spent in quarters and I died a whole lot... Got my butt kicked by my dad for it too... but well... it was worth it.
Comments
for ^
I think what they mean is, a 25 yr old, despite being knowledgeable about games, and despite having played and tried most of whats available out there, cannot have been present in those years and had those experiences that people had at time time. Some games even had massive changes to them so that the experience you have now, is nothing like what it was like 15 yrs ago.
When people with knowledge about games, pretend to have played at the actually time of the games release or heyday, thats when its disingenous, and btw, also belittles the effort they've made to know the genre, and the care they have taken to learn about it. That should be enough on its own.
I agree with your sentiment about nostalgia. Ive got it in spades for EQ1. However having played EQ1 for so long, I also realise it is way more than nostalgia. That mmo's as a whole have changed dramatically, and not for the better in my opinion. It might make me old to say that. I recognise the irony. But I think alot of the younger gamers are also unhappy with how infantalised their games have become. How obvious the carrot on the stick.
And then you have people talk about unknown games from God knows when...meridian was it? Playing game for 20 years doesn't make someone's opinion more valid.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Perhaps. But you need to use Appeal to Authority argument with a great deal of caution.
For one, it requires the presentation of credentials. "I remember when Goldshire was a seething hotbed of nelf strippers and sexting," or whatever you think will establish you as "legit" (and we're back to the OP's problem, right? Credentials? On the internet?)
Two, it requires that you are an actual, applicable authority. Being there to play the game in 1997 doesn't mean you were raiding in 1997 (that would be hard to establish, but whatever). Showing a PhD in biochemistry doesn't make you a credentialed expert in Orbital Dynamics. "Zomg I was playing that game" doesn't mean you were out of the newbie zones at the time.
And three, it requires that you voluntarily assume the mantle of Blowhard, lecture mode activate. Tedious and yawnable.
In general terms, its best to view the application of AtoA arguments as a weak direction to proceed, and an even weaker direction to read. We'd all be better off if everyone left them alone entirely.
And from the thousand conflicting viewpoints we see here, daily, neither do we.
Its possible but the journalists certainly talk as if they were there back in the day. Also if you leave a MMO too long it can radically change.
As to other posters who think I am angry about this, no just bemused really.
I've noticed this too in alot of video game reviews etc too.
Buncha hipsters.
I've been pc gaming since 1993, before that it was only NES when we'd stay round friends' houses. Never had NES or "tv games" as they were called when I was growing up in South Africa, just a 386 with never enough memory to play enough games (until I figured out how to edit the boot file and allocate more memory). I've played more pc game hours than anyone I know, that is a fact. I spent a lot of my years with mental health problems, so wasn't working and so had a lot of free time. It had a detrimental effect on my life, but I know for a fact I've played more games (including MMO's) than most, and definitely anyone I know personally, most of whom are gamers.
In today's world it seems they think if you play a few minutes of something then you're a fan who's seen it, played it and know all about it.
I remember seeing DAoC for the first time, I couldn't believe it was an online game. Coming from South Africa in the 90's we only had 56k and could only use it once a month for an hour or two because of the cost. When I moved to England damn things changed. MMO's........once upon a time they were truly worlds you could escape into. Now they are just games focused on making money, and attracting the most players, therefore ending up filled with idiots who have no clue.
No idea why I rambled off and this clearly has nothing to do with the OP. Just know I was there and saw the evolution of modern (90's onward) pc gaming.
I guess people who were around then who have seen the MMO genre evolve into a spoon-fed community feel like they need to constantly tell everyone about it constantly? Valid points highlighted in green. Not saying i disagree with your post btw.
It's interesting that you use DAoC as your example. Most DAoCers used the VNBoards until they went down. They were the goto board for DAoC, especially since that's where the Team Leads were.
Someone that was around then would know that.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I didn't sign up here until after the NGE hit SWG. I knew of the site of course, read articles, browsed forums etc... SO join date really means nothing considering the first MMO I tried was DAOC at the tail end of 2002 (almost a full 3 years prior). I only dabbled in DAOC of course, I had no idea what i was doing, and only picked it up to get the idea of what an MMORPG was, due to learning of them in an article about SWG. SO I literally went out bought a PC, and two games UO and DAOC, all because of this one game coming up. UO was certainly not my thing, shortest lived MMORPG experience for me. DAOC though was fun and the PVP mechanic blew me away which I only saw the surface of, by the time I was doing that SWG was about to release.
Long story short, had it not been for SWGs NGE, as well as the long standing, continuing drought of any game close to being like pre-cu SWG, I would possibly have never signed up here, I'd still be too busy playing games I actually wanna play/see...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I did not sign up on mmorpg.com till long after I stopped playing Everquest 1. I was a mod on the server board for my EQ server. I dont know how I can explain it properly to those of you who never saw this, but our server boards were a riot. The amount of amazing flame material and general banter and ranting material the game gave the community boards was IMMENSE. - We did not come to this website because we did not need it. We had plenty of entertainment elsewhere.
I started playing EQ1 in 99, but didnt start raiding till the end of Velious, so lets say 14-15 years for me (I wont look it up and I dont remember the year), but off the top of my head the sites I used were the server boards, Allakazam, Graffe, Fires of Heaven, Steel Warrior and probably some other mmorpg like sites - but I honestly dont remember them. I do know, that mmorpg.com was not even in the mix. I dont remember when I first browsed this site. I do know I did not use it nor need it for Everquest related information. And since I was a raider in a pretty committed raiding guild until Luclin and VT, afterwhich I joined a seriously hardcore serverwide top 10 guild, I didnt have time to play anything else. So I had no interest in whatever else this website at that time covered.
my point is, that in this debate this website is irrelevant, and join date is irrelevant, because people like me just joined eventually, when we migrated away from our first mmo's.
Hope that clears up the misconception.
hmm ya know Quizzical , i read many of your posts and agree with alot of what you bring ... but you missed a great time in uo .. and my point is balance ruins many of the so called mmos that we see today and other older games (lookin at you Wow) that have been ruined by players screaming for balance .. ..
All the greatest challenges and accomplishments imo .. come by overcoming the odds .. which in many of the first generation of games came from closley knit teamwork trying to find ways to tilt the scales into your favor ..wether pvp or pve .. The diveristy and strength/weaknesses of classes and enviroment that brought imbalance .. also deleivered the most satisfaction and fun ..
There is some merit in this, but people may just stay on their MMO of choice forums, why come here? Years pass and then they decided to join us here. So I would never use joining date as proof of anything.
You might be right about that. I wasn't aware of Trammel when it launched, as I wasn't following how released games got patched that closely. In retrospect, I was used to consoles with cartridges that are impossible to patch after launch, and while I had more recently seen patches delivered online, I hadn't yet seen anything that radically overhauled a game.
But it was also around that time that I picked up Infantry, and then shortly after quitting Infantry, I got Europa Universalis II. That's two of the all time great games right there, so it's not like I had nothing else to play. Even if I had known that I would have liked UO on Trammel, I probably still wouldn't have played it at the time because I wouldn't have liked it as much as Infantry. (I tend to play one game at a time.) By the time I quit EU2, it was well into 2003.
The implication here being: clearly WOW was not just good, but great back in the old days (as evidenced by how popular it became) and didn't get worse with age but actually became much better (evidenced by rising popularity.)
Totally agree. Players know quality when they see it.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
When Dragon Slayer first came out I was hooked.... 50 dollars spent in quarters and I died a whole lot... Got my butt kicked by my dad for it too... but well... it was worth it.
Played: UO, LotR, WoW, SWG, DDO, AoC, EVE, Warhammer, TF2, EQ2, SWTOR, TSW, CSS, KF, L4D, AoW, WoT
Playing: The Secret World until Citadel of Sorcery goes into Alpha testing.
Tired of: Linear quest games, dailies, and dumbed down games
Anticipating:Citadel of Sorcery