Yes, but many games of zombie survival fail, or at least all of them i know, because of aimbot, imagine that you survive for long hours, that you play very carrefully and you could even say like a pro, and then someone very very far from you shoot you in the head so easy...very frustating^^
When you create a game , you have also to think about how counter hacks. BLizzard for example create HOTS with the same system that starcraft 2, where people can maphack, thats gg... many people can get rank 1 in less than three weeks without paying money, and disturb people that play fair making loose their game...
Originally posted by Feracitus All fine and dandy, but i'm doing it anyways
LOL... so am I. I've been working on it since yesterday, inspired by this thread!
Here's how I'm planning it so far, all subject to change, of course:
It'll be a realm-specific setting (defaulting to "0"). On a realm with permadeath set to "1", it'll work as follows:
If you're killed and above level 1, you'll be demoted one level -- and if you just happen to have enough XP to again reach your previous level, you'll be autopromoted and the XP will be consumed. All is (somewhat) well...
If you're killed at level 1, but *offline* (um, yes, and if you're careless, you're quite likely to be attacked when offline...), you'll just lose your ship/cash/equipment, as normal. You'll survive in an "escape pod" and will be undetectable by any other player until you log back in. Nothing else happens..
If you're killed at level 1 while *online*, your toon _will be deleted_.
[ This will be quite unlike being killed otherwise; in the normal (non-permadeath) case you would just lose your ship and everything on it. Meanwhile, your forces deployed throughout the galaxy (starbases, bunkers, deployed drones, and deployed homing beacons) would be unaffected. Your ranking on the leaderboard might still be quite high as you drift aimlessly in your lowly escape pod. If you happen to be online and towing a recently captured ship, you'd even respawn into that ship instead of the escape pod. ]
In the permadeath situation, however, your entire account is gone and must be recreated. Yes, someone *may* steal your name if you're too slow. Your exotic title, based on your massive accumulated honor, would be lost forever along with all of your possessions. That corporation you founded? Some other lucky member will inherit it now.
On a realm with permadeath set to "2" it would work exactly the same except that each death would result in a 2-level demotion instead of 1. I doubt that I'll ever get the chance to use numbers higher than 1.
A big penalty, but it should be quite rare in practice and easy for a clever player to completely avoid. You must be killed while online and already down to level 1 in order to suffer permadeath. The more experienced and higher level a player is, the harder it is to permakill him. A genuine lowbie can easily be killed by another lowbie, but he has little to lose anyway. Probably not a big deal.
I see the annoyance of being demoted a level as the bigger deal.
One other point not mentioned above; none of the demotion/permadeath penalties apply in a non-honorable *PVP kill. That is, a player has to be equal or below your level in order to honorably kill you. [*If you attack an alien 5 levels higher than you and he kills you, you *can* suffer these penalties. But that's just dumb.]
This also allows a player to delete their account by self-destructing at level 1. I should add a warning about that...
- - -
Working full time on the Lost Raven MMO, a PVP sandbox for Space Pirates, Alien Hunters, Rock Jocks, and Fleet Commanders. The server is nearly feature-complete with client code to start soon.
I think the reality is there is no such thing as permadeath. Because you can always create a new character. Or have multiple account.
For example diablo hardcore, everyone would have a mule account or bank to store items. Eve for example, everyone have multiple account.
True there wouldnt really be a permadeath if you could just roll a new character, but thats the thing... Een in the old pen and paper RPGs if our characters died we rerolled. sure we got ticked.. maybe we had that character for a few hours.. in some cases mine would last a few years... and youre damned right i would get ticked because he/she died... but you know... crap happens.
You man up and start over.
I could see how permadeath in this fashion would work well.. for one in some games youd either see fewer lemming, dps whores... or youd get to see alot of dead fools.
In Permadeath games players tend to play smarter, have less stupidity, and for dang sure know how to use their characters. You dont have this level of play in any of todays MMORPGs, everything is handed to the players on a silver platter with little to no real effort. Its very disappointing... I always had it in the back of my mind since Ultima Online that games would be like the founding RPG concept.. Players in a world fighting against the odds for survival... corpse running isnt how its supposed to be.
I feel that MMORPGs have lost the core feeling of what they were born from... Maybe thats just my opinion but I have felt this way since Diablo 2's Hardcore system.
I like the feature, but if you die in a crash, or get sniped while fighting, or get slaughtered by someone 10 lvl's and up, or die because of lag. The Admin needs to be ready to bring your character back to life, free...
"Investment firms do not have that outlook on life. They need to know there is not only a return on their investment but also a solid profit at the end of it." tawess-
I was thinking about perma death and came up with this system
all characters are safe until lvl 100
every level after 100 there is a 1% per level chance to die so a level 127 has a 27% to die
each time the character dies the roll is made
so its a risk and reward system you become stronger but you know the risk
you could imagine two armies fighting and in the middle of it two level 190+ fighting to the death
but i would also include children who continue your blood line and have all your stuff
you could even have a system where the characters get older so less hit points and at level 200 they could die from falling down some steps
I love the generations Idea, and would love to work it in to my game, but I never thought about giving the dead parents gear, sorta like a trustfund or heirloom gift set aside for when they can use it?
"Investment firms do not have that outlook on life. They need to know there is not only a return on their investment but also a solid profit at the end of it." tawess-
I was thinking about perma death and came up with this system
all characters are safe until lvl 100
every level after 100 there is a 1% per level chance to die so a level 127 has a 27% to die
each time the character dies the roll is made
so its a risk and reward system you become stronger but you know the risk
you could imagine two armies fighting and in the middle of it two level 190+ fighting to the death
but i would also include children who continue your blood line and have all your stuff
you could even have a system where the characters get older so less hit points and at level 200 they could die from falling down some steps
you could more realistically imagine people botting deleveling once they hit the 90s. This would be especially true in a game where armies battle and there is low level disparity.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I feel like perma death in mmorpgs now-a-days would not be received by a player base too well, however in single player rpgs I could see it being a cool feature and help immerse yourself into a world, as well as focus throughout to make sure your progress doesn't die.
Originally posted by fruitgame I feel like perma death in mmorpgs now-a-days would not be received by a player base too well, however in single player rpgs I could see it being a cool feature and help immerse yourself into a world, as well as focus throughout to make sure your progress doesn't die.
Exactly, and it's why quite a few RPGs inclue 'iron man' or 'hardcore' modes in their difficulty choices, both of which are a bit of a throwback to the earlier PnP and CRPGs where saving your game was either at distant checkpoints or non-existent.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Clearly... based on a couple posts here? Clearly would mean you can hold up an example of a game flourishing with said system as a MMORPG... That's hard to do.
There's a simple reason this doesn't work in a traditional MMORPG environment, it's very much like the reason why devs don't usually mix item loss/ item decay with raid/gear based games. Who wants to spend a 100+ hours building, outfitting, achieving, etc.. just to lose it all in one fell swoop? It just makes no sense when the whole point is character growth/identity... Not to mention large amounts of players available to complete content with, which is another issue Perma-death brings forward. No one is willing to risk their character.. you saw this is SWG when Jedi had perma death. That is highly detrimental to the overall focus of an MMORPG.
AS for the argument it only works if everyone has to suffer it... That's not the case in most titles that feature it as in most cases it's only within "hardcore" type modes. Which means it's very much a self-inflicted option there as well.
"Clearly" meaning that through the years there have been numerous posts and discussions about people who want it. Which means that there is a small contingent of people who want it.
Secondly, no, I can't hold up an example of a game flourishing with this system. Can you or anyone else hold up an example of a "good" game (meaning few bugs, decent art design, workign features) that had a similar system. I'm going to say no.
And you repeat the same argument which doesn't apply. It doesn't
People who are asking for permadeath DON'T CARE about investing 100's of hours into the character because that's not what permadeath is about.
Permadeath is about multiple characters, I've said this already. It's about a "family" or a "dynasty". If you play strategy game and you lose some units or a squadron do you go nuts?
If you play X-Com for instance do you go nuts because you lost Sanchez? No! Sanchez gets replaced.
The problem with this argument is that people who don't want it argue against it based upon completely different games and under the guise that they are going to forced to play these games. Hence your last sentence.
Ridiculous. Also, where is the OP in all this?
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Before talking about permadeath, we have to analize how death are implanted on games that everybody knows, i do a resume but i could do it way better if i was asked for it:
-Wow: you take time to return to your corpse and you have to walk to your corpse from a far graveyard. Dying is annoying for the player so he try to play carefull after a few death and wasting time returning to the corpse. Bad players take advantage of this annoying moment to kill players from -10 levels.
-FPS: you wait untill match is over or there is a respawn timer or instant respawn.
-MOBA: more level you have more time you wait to respawn. However in the whole game, you always restart from level 1 in each match.
A prototype of game that tried to implant permadeath:
-ROTMG (realm of the mad god): When you die you loose all the equipment you wear, but the one from bank are protected. So you do end dungeons and put a lot of equipment in bank just in case you die. If you pay you can buy an amulet that let you resurrect. Even if you die, restarting from level 1 with equipment from end game make you already very strong. More far you get with you pj more pjs you can unlock to play.
The question is why permadeath?
-Because we would play more carefully. There is games without permadeath that achieve that already.
-Because its related with your equipment that you wear. You loose it? they can steal it from you? You can take it back?
-Because people like to grinding? relevel your pj is fun? how make it fun relevel your pj againd and again?
-Because you have a profile that save the enemy that you kill, quest that you did, al the levels that you get. all records ... New skills? new pjs? Awards?
-Because we want to annoy players? how annoy them but without quiting the game from rage?
More ideas of permadeath in a game:
-You get a profile awards, so even if you die, your account is improving or even get new skills so you always start being stronger.
-Care about trades, because there is many exploit with multiaccount, so they can expand their bank, or even try hacks of duply items (thats why rotmg end in failure, every body has many end items copied, and amulet of resurection, and people selling with real money items duped.)
-Free to play games work with this system, because if you paid you get a item that help you cheat death one time.
-Thinks about servers PVE and PVP. You can die for real by NPC only or also by players that want to annoy you and steal your items.
-When you die you drop your items. And people can steal them like if you were a chest^^.
-Healers can counter permadeath and resurrect you.
-Level restriction of equipment or not, but in any case you can level up you equipment by killing monster, so grinding is always productive,your weapon can even get a skill by killing "x" same npc. You can curse you equipment so if a different owner wear it it get less stats, or he gives damage by sec or instant death (different curse existe more money you pay), that way people leave it on the floor or give it bacj to the original owner for money. (Free to play could also work with this)
-Each time you die you level up more easier, because you can start from more difficult areas, that give more xp.
-When you teamup to do dungeons you can see his profile to see if his a good players or he died many team in an especfic dungeon, so you dont die because you teamup with a bad player.
-To counter be annoyed by the same player or many different, it can existe skills like "revenge" that give you +50% damage against players of +10lvl higher that killed you untill you die. I
-Why dying is a bad thing? dying by a npc werewolf boss make you become a new faction untill you die, that are good against some monsters and bad against other, so when you need to do some new dungeons or difficult quest that you couldnt do before you need to die in a new way.
-Killing streak in pvp make you stronger, however killing a killing spree player make you have 20% bonus stat that he achieve to have.
CONCLUSION:
Permadeath need to change a little bit how mmorpg works so they get along. I dont know how civilization online work, but i think cities will not stay forever as futuristic, but they would make players start over sometimes. In my case if there are games with permadeath that are well thinked and designed, i will play it for sure, even paid for it.
Originally posted by Scot There are many good things about old school gaming, permadeath is not one of them. It is something I am glad we have left behind.
Agreed. Too many forum goers that want to sell us Permadeath again do not understand that it works for less than 1% of the total MMO population and how unlikely a game with it will be successful. Saying an MMO can live on 10,000 players is nuts and these people just do not get what it takes to create and run an MMO. They had their chance with Permadeath which was WO and it failed in the NA/EU region. That says it all
I think the reality is there is no such thing as permadeath. Because you can always create a new character. Or have multiple account.
For example diablo hardcore, everyone would have a mule account or bank to store items. Eve for example, everyone have multiple account.
Yea I think this is also what people are missing here. What is PD?
Nothing really dies, its just a bunch of pixels with stats on your hardrive that you will never be able to access again! Oh the horror!!
Now I will have to go back and recreate those pixels and data once again.
Thats all PD is. Its just another frustration feature added to a game. Probably the ultimate frustration feature.
No wonder the world is clamoring to have it in their game. After all there is very little frustration in MMO's these days. We really should have more of it.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
And lo and behold (and on topic) Today's front story is a game with permadeath:
To get started, you, your friends, and all the people of the game playing with you will grow old, you’ll die, and you’ll live on reincarnated in families of your own design and choosing. You’ll have kids, they’ll grow old, and they’ll die, and so on and so forth. Yep, you read that right. There’s permadeath in CoE, but Soulbound Studios has found, what we believe is, an effective way to solve the problem lots of people have with permadeath.
So yes Permadeath, it used to be something common. There are games like Diablo (HC) PoE (HC) or ROTMK and Salem wich came out in the near past. I for one see a trend comming and I for one hope it will continue.
So lets discuss Permadeath in MMOs. What do you think about the subject and what impact do you think its going to have on the near future of MMO's. Will it become a hit or do you think it's going to be something that some developers will try but will fail in because nobody is interested. And more importantly why do you think it !
Lets make a good list of pro's and con's about this subject because I am currious about your thoughts about it.
PS. I am not asking for games that have permadeath I want to have a discussion about the concept it self.
Looks like he might of got his wish but why do i think that is not the type of permadeath he would like.
I reckon he would like the thought of knowing he fucked up someones game, a more griefing type of PD.
So yes Permadeath, it used to be something common. There are games like Diablo (HC) PoE (HC) or ROTMK and Salem wich came out in the near past. I for one see a trend comming and I for one hope it will continue.
So lets discuss Permadeath in MMOs. What do you think about the subject and what impact do you think its going to have on the near future of MMO's. Will it become a hit or do you think it's going to be something that some developers will try but will fail in because nobody is interested. And more importantly why do you think it !
Lets make a good list of pro's and con's about this subject because I am currious about your thoughts about it.
PS. I am not asking for games that have permadeath I want to have a discussion about the concept it self.
Looks like he might of got his wish but why do i think that is not the type of permadeath he would like.
I reckon he would like the thought of knowing he fucked up someones game, a more griefing type of PD.
Well, I don't really get that from his post.
I don't agree with him that permadeath that it was common nor do I think it will be a trend.
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If I am playing an MMO I am not going to play an MMORPG like I would play an MOBA. An MMORPG best survives when players are invested in their character and want to keep progressing it. If that character is DEAD then guess what I am not going to play that game because my character is dead. I also do not believe in short term progression and starting over, if I do that I would rather play an MOBA because I an not having to RELEARN shit.
Again, you are bringing in your preconceived notions on what an mmo has to be based upon what you like.
Did you ever consider that for some people, especially for permadeath games, it's not about the investment in one character where the draw resides but the investment in, say, a dynasty? Or a family tree?
Permadeath games are not about one character they are about a chain of characters. Unless you can understand this concept it's going to be difficult for you to see any other point other than "I", "I", "I".
Point is I am playing 1 Character. Thats what I want to play and develop. If I need to do another because Helz is dead I will just quit period.
Then wouldn't you NOT be playing a game that you had no interest in? Do you play ffa pvp games? If you don't then why would you play one?
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I would 100% play a perma death mmo if it had a system where you count down to death. Sort of like those old arcade games where you have a free life.
And I'd pay a sub to do it.
Dunno what to tell you then. We have given you several examples of past and existing games that directly contradict what you're stating.
When one side is saying "these facts and this history say it doesn't work in this region and in this genre" and the other side is saying "it will work if it's done right and people will like it" then we're at an impasse.
I don't think the issue is that other games have gone before and they tanked.
That happens a lot on this site. Think to all the people saying "theme parks are dead/subs are dead look at AoC, Secret world, insert your game "here".
But then we say "well, did those games have issues?".
I played Wizardry and it was horrid. It felt like junk. The art design was iffy, the graphics were piss poor, it didn't handle well, etc.
So did it tank because of permadeath or because it was a crappy game?
People on these forums like to point out things that "don't work" and therefore that's why x,y and z doesn't work but then when you actually look at them their failure had nothing to do/little to do with why they failed.
Because by that logic we can assuredly state "a warhammer mmo can never work, look, Warhammer Online failed".
Do we really believe that it doesn't work because it is warhammer online or because it wasn't implemented well?
I'd agree that a permadeath game would have to be small. But it would have to be done well. It would be a niche game and not one for people who want to invest in one character.
I don't know why you are being so obtuse. Is it that you feel WO doesn't exist? Are you saying it isn't doing well in Japan? The reason I ask is because you are stuck on "It just has to be done well" and we showed you one that was done well and was successful in Japan but failed here. Shaiya and several other MMOs with hardcore or permadeath modes displayed the same pattern.
Yes, a game has to be made well for someone to enjoy it. No one is arguing that... still. You've become a broken record.
I'm not being obtuse, Wizardry Online was a crappy game. I can't say why it did well in Japan other than they thought it was great for some reasons or maybe there just aren't a lot of permadeath games and there were enough japanese players to keep it going successfully.
But I don't recall any western player, who liked permadeath, saying it was a great game. I tried it and it sucked. Not because of the graphics (which did suck but I could deal) but it had a clunky interface, movement was horrible, it wasn't fun.
Now, apparently the company that developed it was a Japanese company. So maybe they really pushed it over there and that garnered the support of people who could deal with its issues? Or maybe the threshold for being financially successful was different over there than it was over here? Remember it was published by Sony and large corporations tend to have their own ideas as to what is going to be considered a success. Just making a profit doesn't necessarily mean "success".
I don't recall a whole lot of marketing here though truth be told one would think that those who wanted permadeath games would have their ears to the ground and be in the know. I do "know" that there were complaints on these forums about the game from those who wanted "that type of game" but it was not about the permadeath component.
You see, that's the thing, and what I have brought up before, one has to point to a game for failing "because of permadeath" and not because of poor implementation of the game.
Same goes for Salem. You can purchase items in a cash shop but if you are killed then you lose those items if they are on you. That was a common complaint I've seen.
Now, having said that, as far as I know it's still running. So one must suspect there are enough people to keep it going.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
And lo and behold (and on topic) Today's front story is a game with permadeath:
To get started, you, your friends, and all the people of the game playing with you will grow old, you’ll die, and you’ll live on reincarnated in families of your own design and choosing. You’ll have kids, they’ll grow old, and they’ll die, and so on and so forth. Yep, you read that right. There’s permadeath in CoE, but Soulbound Studios has found, what we believe is, an effective way to solve the problem lots of people have with permadeath.
Remort and persistent account-based character stats/traits (ex: Wizardry Online) have been around since MUDs. Rebirth or 'ancestry' has been in MUDs and MMOs for both characters and pets. Mabinogi pets are the first that come to mind.
And, if I am reading it correctly, today's front story is about an idea for a game with permadeath. Or is it playable currently? While that sounds nitpicky, you have been around long enough to know there is a huge difference between a 'great' idea in development and a released feature that people enjoy playing. The latter is a rather big deal. The former and a token gets you on a bus. Well, in today's world it can get you a few million in crowdfunding, but you get the point.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
And lo and behold (and on topic) Today's front story is a game with permadeath:
To get started, you, your friends, and all the people of the game playing with you will grow old, you’ll die, and you’ll live on reincarnated in families of your own design and choosing. You’ll have kids, they’ll grow old, and they’ll die, and so on and so forth. Yep, you read that right. There’s permadeath in CoE, but Soulbound Studios has found, what we believe is, an effective way to solve the problem lots of people have with permadeath.
Remort and persistent account-based character stats/traits (ex: Wizardry Online) have been around since MUDs. Rebirth or 'ancestry' has been in MUDs and MMOs for both characters and pets. Mabinogi pets are the first that come to mind.
And, if I am reading it correctly, today's front story is about an idea for a game with permadeath. Or is it playable currently? While that sounds nitpicky, you have been around long enough to know there is a huge difference between a 'great' idea in development and a released feature that people enjoy playing. The latter is a rather big deal. The former and a token gets you on a bus. Well, in today's world it can get you a few million in crowdfunding, but you get the point.
Oh, I completely agree. It's a studio that wants to make this game and "yadda, yadda yadda" we'll see.
But the idea that there are people out there who are willing to try to make these things happen points to a group of people out there who want permadeath games or who will at least think they are fun. Granted, it's a small group I bet but a group all the same.
I'm not sure how many they can get but if they could get 3,000 players and were a small team they might be able to pull it off.
They just can't be like Funcom who brought in 300k or so players for "The Secret World" (which was what I thought they would get) and then be disappointed it was not a hit with many times more.
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I would 100% play a perma death mmo if it had a system where you count down to death. Sort of like those old arcade games where you have a free life.
And I'd pay a sub to do it.
Dunno what to tell you then. We have given you several examples of past and existing games that directly contradict what you're stating.
When one side is saying "these facts and this history say it doesn't work in this region and in this genre" and the other side is saying "it will work if it's done right and people will like it" then we're at an impasse.
I don't think the issue is that other games have gone before and they tanked.
That happens a lot on this site. Think to all the people saying "theme parks are dead/subs are dead look at AoC, Secret world, insert your game "here".
But then we say "well, did those games have issues?".
I played Wizardry and it was horrid. It felt like junk. The art design was iffy, the graphics were piss poor, it didn't handle well, etc.
So did it tank because of permadeath or because it was a crappy game?
People on these forums like to point out things that "don't work" and therefore that's why x,y and z doesn't work but then when you actually look at them their failure had nothing to do/little to do with why they failed.
Because by that logic we can assuredly state "a warhammer mmo can never work, look, Warhammer Online failed".
Do we really believe that it doesn't work because it is warhammer online or because it wasn't implemented well?
I'd agree that a permadeath game would have to be small. But it would have to be done well. It would be a niche game and not one for people who want to invest in one character.
I don't know why you are being so obtuse. Is it that you feel WO doesn't exist? Are you saying it isn't doing well in Japan? The reason I ask is because you are stuck on "It just has to be done well" and we showed you one that was done well and was successful in Japan but failed here. Shaiya and several other MMOs with hardcore or permadeath modes displayed the same pattern.
Yes, a game has to be made well for someone to enjoy it. No one is arguing that... still. You've become a broken record.
I'm not being obtuse, Wizardry Online was a crappy game. I can't say why it did well in Japan other than they thought it was great for some reasons or maybe there just aren't a lot of permadeath games and there were enough japanese players to keep it going successfully.
But I don't recall any western player, who liked permadeath, saying it was a great game. I tried it and it sucked. Not because of the graphics (which did suck but I could deal) but it had a clunky interface, movement was horrible, it wasn't fun.
Now, apparently the company that developed it was a Japanese company. So maybe they really pushed it over there and that garnered the support of people who could deal with its issues? Or maybe the threshold for being financially successful was different over there than it was over here? Remember it was published by Sony and large corporations tend to have their own ideas as to what is going to be considered a success. Just making a profit doesn't necessarily mean "success".
I don't recall a whole lot of marketing here though truth be told one would think that those who wanted permadeath games would have their ears to the ground and be in the know. I do "know" that there were complaints on these forums about the game from those who wanted "that type of game" but it was not about the permadeath component.
You see, that's the thing, and what I have brought up before, one has to point to a game for failing "because of permadeath" and not because of poor implementation of the game.
Ok, so you're not being obtuse, you just refuse to acknowledge that people are culturally different. Coming from a Lineage 2 player, that's pretty damn odd, Sovrath.
Did you know western players often feel it is deceiving when the character creator has characters in top end gear, and eastern players are turned off by characters in the creator standing around in their underwear? Or that the cut scenes in the beginning of Wizardry Online are considered normal there, but were considered a tedious abomination in the west. So much so that they were reduced or taken out of the SOE version.
I can go on with dozens of cultural differences, and if you decide to be honest with yourself, you can too. That you refuse to accept it is considered a good game by the players there is ridiculous and makes me wonder if you are so entrenched in your view that you are just rejecting any argument to the contrary.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Clearly... based on a couple posts here? Clearly would mean you can hold up an example of a game flourishing with said system as a MMORPG... That's hard to do.
There's a simple reason this doesn't work in a traditional MMORPG environment, it's very much like the reason why devs don't usually mix item loss/ item decay with raid/gear based games. Who wants to spend a 100+ hours building, outfitting, achieving, etc.. just to lose it all in one fell swoop? It just makes no sense when the whole point is character growth/identity... Not to mention large amounts of players available to complete content with, which is another issue Perma-death brings forward. No one is willing to risk their character.. you saw this is SWG when Jedi had perma death. That is highly detrimental to the overall focus of an MMORPG.
AS for the argument it only works if everyone has to suffer it... That's not the case in most titles that feature it as in most cases it's only within "hardcore" type modes. Which means it's very much a self-inflicted option there as well.
"Clearly" meaning that through the years there have been numerous posts and discussions about people who want it. Which means that there is a small contingent of people who want it.
Secondly, no, I can't hold up an example of a game flourishing with this system. Can you or anyone else hold up an example of a "good" game (meaning few bugs, decent art design, workign features) that had a similar system. I'm going to say no.
And you repeat the same argument which doesn't apply. It doesn't
People who are asking for permadeath DON'T CARE about investing 100's of hours into the character because that's not what permadeath is about.
Permadeath is about multiple characters, I've said this already. It's about a "family" or a "dynasty". If you play strategy game and you lose some units or a squadron do you go nuts?
If you play X-Com for instance do you go nuts because you lost Sanchez? No! Sanchez gets replaced.
The problem with this argument is that people who don't want it argue against it based upon completely different games and under the guise that they are going to forced to play these games. Hence your last sentence.
Ridiculous. Also, where is the OP in all this?
I said it didn't work in a traditional MMORPG environment, that's a game that is all about character growth and spending hundreds of hours on that. I also made no stand on whether or not I would support the feature, I've never known you to be one to use such broad generalizations as to why someone is presenting an argument to you.
Using a feature like this takes real imagination, as well as out of the box design. It's a whole different concept to get folks behind. That is why it is rare... when it is used, it is usually an optional mode that gives the player the choice of partaking. What is ridiculous about pointing this out?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Comments
Yes, but many games of zombie survival fail, or at least all of them i know, because of aimbot, imagine that you survive for long hours, that you play very carrefully and you could even say like a pro, and then someone very very far from you shoot you in the head so easy...very frustating^^
When you create a game , you have also to think about how counter hacks. BLizzard for example create HOTS with the same system that starcraft 2, where people can maphack, thats gg... many people can get rank 1 in less than three weeks without paying money, and disturb people that play fair making loose their game...
LOL... so am I. I've been working on it since yesterday, inspired by this thread!
Here's how I'm planning it so far, all subject to change, of course:
It'll be a realm-specific setting (defaulting to "0"). On a realm with permadeath set to "1", it'll work as follows:
If you're killed and above level 1, you'll be demoted one level -- and if you just happen to have enough XP to again reach your previous level, you'll be autopromoted and the XP will be consumed. All is (somewhat) well...
If you're killed at level 1, but *offline* (um, yes, and if you're careless, you're quite likely to be attacked when offline...), you'll just lose your ship/cash/equipment, as normal. You'll survive in an "escape pod" and will be undetectable by any other player until you log back in. Nothing else happens..
If you're killed at level 1 while *online*, your toon _will be deleted_.
[ This will be quite unlike being killed otherwise; in the normal (non-permadeath) case you would just lose your ship and everything on it. Meanwhile, your forces deployed throughout the galaxy (starbases, bunkers, deployed drones, and deployed homing beacons) would be unaffected. Your ranking on the leaderboard might still be quite high as you drift aimlessly in your lowly escape pod. If you happen to be online and towing a recently captured ship, you'd even respawn into that ship instead of the escape pod. ]
In the permadeath situation, however, your entire account is gone and must be recreated. Yes, someone *may* steal your name if you're too slow. Your exotic title, based on your massive accumulated honor, would be lost forever along with all of your possessions. That corporation you founded? Some other lucky member will inherit it now.
On a realm with permadeath set to "2" it would work exactly the same except that each death would result in a 2-level demotion instead of 1. I doubt that I'll ever get the chance to use numbers higher than 1.
A big penalty, but it should be quite rare in practice and easy for a clever player to completely avoid. You must be killed while online and already down to level 1 in order to suffer permadeath. The more experienced and higher level a player is, the harder it is to permakill him. A genuine lowbie can easily be killed by another lowbie, but he has little to lose anyway. Probably not a big deal.
I see the annoyance of being demoted a level as the bigger deal.
One other point not mentioned above; none of the demotion/permadeath penalties apply in a non-honorable *PVP kill. That is, a player has to be equal or below your level in order to honorably kill you. [*If you attack an alien 5 levels higher than you and he kills you, you *can* suffer these penalties. But that's just dumb.]
This also allows a player to delete their account by self-destructing at level 1. I should add a warning about that...
- - -
Working full time on the Lost Raven MMO, a PVP sandbox for Space Pirates, Alien Hunters, Rock Jocks, and Fleet Commanders. The server is nearly feature-complete with client code to start soon.
True there wouldnt really be a permadeath if you could just roll a new character, but thats the thing... Een in the old pen and paper RPGs if our characters died we rerolled. sure we got ticked.. maybe we had that character for a few hours.. in some cases mine would last a few years... and youre damned right i would get ticked because he/she died... but you know... crap happens.
You man up and start over.
I could see how permadeath in this fashion would work well.. for one in some games youd either see fewer lemming, dps whores... or youd get to see alot of dead fools.
In Permadeath games players tend to play smarter, have less stupidity, and for dang sure know how to use their characters. You dont have this level of play in any of todays MMORPGs, everything is handed to the players on a silver platter with little to no real effort. Its very disappointing... I always had it in the back of my mind since Ultima Online that games would be like the founding RPG concept.. Players in a world fighting against the odds for survival... corpse running isnt how its supposed to be.
I feel that MMORPGs have lost the core feeling of what they were born from... Maybe thats just my opinion but I have felt this way since Diablo 2's Hardcore system.
Played: UO, LotR, WoW, SWG, DDO, AoC, EVE, Warhammer, TF2, EQ2, SWTOR, TSW, CSS, KF, L4D, AoW, WoT
Playing: The Secret World until Citadel of Sorcery goes into Alpha testing.
Tired of: Linear quest games, dailies, and dumbed down games
Anticipating:Citadel of Sorcery
"Investment firms do not have that outlook on life. They need to know there is not only a return on their investment but also a solid profit at the end of it." tawess-
I was thinking about perma death and came up with this system
all characters are safe until lvl 100
every level after 100 there is a 1% per level chance to die so a level 127 has a 27% to die
each time the character dies the roll is made
so its a risk and reward system you become stronger but you know the risk
you could imagine two armies fighting and in the middle of it two level 190+ fighting to the death
but i would also include children who continue your blood line and have all your stuff
you could even have a system where the characters get older so less hit points and at level 200 they could die from falling down some steps
I love the generations Idea, and would love to work it in to my game, but I never thought about giving the dead parents gear, sorta like a trustfund or heirloom gift set aside for when they can use it?
"Investment firms do not have that outlook on life. They need to know there is not only a return on their investment but also a solid profit at the end of it." tawess-
Love it.
Although rebirth isn't that bad either.
Sway all day, butterfly flaps all the way!
you could more realistically imagine people botting deleveling once they hit the 90s. This would be especially true in a game where armies battle and there is low level disparity.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Exactly, and it's why quite a few RPGs inclue 'iron man' or 'hardcore' modes in their difficulty choices, both of which are a bit of a throwback to the earlier PnP and CRPGs where saving your game was either at distant checkpoints or non-existent.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
"Clearly" meaning that through the years there have been numerous posts and discussions about people who want it. Which means that there is a small contingent of people who want it.
Secondly, no, I can't hold up an example of a game flourishing with this system. Can you or anyone else hold up an example of a "good" game (meaning few bugs, decent art design, workign features) that had a similar system. I'm going to say no.
And you repeat the same argument which doesn't apply. It doesn't
People who are asking for permadeath DON'T CARE about investing 100's of hours into the character because that's not what permadeath is about.
Permadeath is about multiple characters, I've said this already. It's about a "family" or a "dynasty". If you play strategy game and you lose some units or a squadron do you go nuts?
If you play X-Com for instance do you go nuts because you lost Sanchez? No! Sanchez gets replaced.
The problem with this argument is that people who don't want it argue against it based upon completely different games and under the guise that they are going to forced to play these games. Hence your last sentence.
Ridiculous. Also, where is the OP in all this?
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Before talking about permadeath, we have to analize how death are implanted on games that everybody knows, i do a resume but i could do it way better if i was asked for it:
-Wow: you take time to return to your corpse and you have to walk to your corpse from a far graveyard. Dying is annoying for the player so he try to play carefull after a few death and wasting time returning to the corpse. Bad players take advantage of this annoying moment to kill players from -10 levels.
-FPS: you wait untill match is over or there is a respawn timer or instant respawn.
-MOBA: more level you have more time you wait to respawn. However in the whole game, you always restart from level 1 in each match.
A prototype of game that tried to implant permadeath:
-ROTMG (realm of the mad god): When you die you loose all the equipment you wear, but the one from bank are protected. So you do end dungeons and put a lot of equipment in bank just in case you die. If you pay you can buy an amulet that let you resurrect. Even if you die, restarting from level 1 with equipment from end game make you already very strong. More far you get with you pj more pjs you can unlock to play.
The question is why permadeath?
-Because we would play more carefully. There is games without permadeath that achieve that already.
-Because its related with your equipment that you wear. You loose it? they can steal it from you? You can take it back?
-Because people like to grinding? relevel your pj is fun? how make it fun relevel your pj againd and again?
-Because you have a profile that save the enemy that you kill, quest that you did, al the levels that you get. all records ... New skills? new pjs? Awards?
-Because we want to annoy players? how annoy them but without quiting the game from rage?
More ideas of permadeath in a game:
-You get a profile awards, so even if you die, your account is improving or even get new skills so you always start being stronger.
-Care about trades, because there is many exploit with multiaccount, so they can expand their bank, or even try hacks of duply items (thats why rotmg end in failure, every body has many end items copied, and amulet of resurection, and people selling with real money items duped.)
-Free to play games work with this system, because if you paid you get a item that help you cheat death one time.
-Thinks about servers PVE and PVP. You can die for real by NPC only or also by players that want to annoy you and steal your items.
-When you die you drop your items. And people can steal them like if you were a chest^^.
-Healers can counter permadeath and resurrect you.
-Level restriction of equipment or not, but in any case you can level up you equipment by killing monster, so grinding is always productive,your weapon can even get a skill by killing "x" same npc. You can curse you equipment so if a different owner wear it it get less stats, or he gives damage by sec or instant death (different curse existe more money you pay), that way people leave it on the floor or give it bacj to the original owner for money. (Free to play could also work with this)
-Each time you die you level up more easier, because you can start from more difficult areas, that give more xp.
-When you teamup to do dungeons you can see his profile to see if his a good players or he died many team in an especfic dungeon, so you dont die because you teamup with a bad player.
-To counter be annoyed by the same player or many different, it can existe skills like "revenge" that give you +50% damage against players of +10lvl higher that killed you untill you die. I
-Why dying is a bad thing? dying by a npc werewolf boss make you become a new faction untill you die, that are good against some monsters and bad against other, so when you need to do some new dungeons or difficult quest that you couldnt do before you need to die in a new way.
-Killing streak in pvp make you stronger, however killing a killing spree player make you have 20% bonus stat that he achieve to have.
CONCLUSION:
Permadeath need to change a little bit how mmorpg works so they get along. I dont know how civilization online work, but i think cities will not stay forever as futuristic, but they would make players start over sometimes. In my case if there are games with permadeath that are well thinked and designed, i will play it for sure, even paid for it.
Agreed. Too many forum goers that want to sell us Permadeath again do not understand that it works for less than 1% of the total MMO population and how unlikely a game with it will be successful. Saying an MMO can live on 10,000 players is nuts and these people just do not get what it takes to create and run an MMO. They had their chance with Permadeath which was WO and it failed in the NA/EU region. That says it all
Yea I think this is also what people are missing here. What is PD?
Nothing really dies, its just a bunch of pixels with stats on your hardrive that you will never be able to access again! Oh the horror!!
Now I will have to go back and recreate those pixels and data once again.
Thats all PD is. Its just another frustration feature added to a game. Probably the ultimate frustration feature.
No wonder the world is clamoring to have it in their game. After all there is very little frustration in MMO's these days. We really should have more of it.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
And lo and behold (and on topic) Today's front story is a game with permadeath:
To get started, you, your friends, and all the people of the game playing with you will grow old, you’ll die, and you’ll live on reincarnated in families of your own design and choosing. You’ll have kids, they’ll grow old, and they’ll die, and so on and so forth. Yep, you read that right. There’s permadeath in CoE, but Soulbound Studios has found, what we believe is, an effective way to solve the problem lots of people have with permadeath.
And that pretty much follows what is being said about not being about a character but a set of characters.http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/9915/page/1
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Looks like he might of got his wish but why do i think that is not the type of permadeath he would like.
I reckon he would like the thought of knowing he fucked up someones game, a more griefing type of PD.
Well, I don't really get that from his post.
I don't agree with him that permadeath that it was common nor do I think it will be a trend.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Then wouldn't you NOT be playing a game that you had no interest in? Do you play ffa pvp games? If you don't then why would you play one?
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I'm not being obtuse, Wizardry Online was a crappy game. I can't say why it did well in Japan other than they thought it was great for some reasons or maybe there just aren't a lot of permadeath games and there were enough japanese players to keep it going successfully.
But I don't recall any western player, who liked permadeath, saying it was a great game. I tried it and it sucked. Not because of the graphics (which did suck but I could deal) but it had a clunky interface, movement was horrible, it wasn't fun.
Now, apparently the company that developed it was a Japanese company. So maybe they really pushed it over there and that garnered the support of people who could deal with its issues? Or maybe the threshold for being financially successful was different over there than it was over here? Remember it was published by Sony and large corporations tend to have their own ideas as to what is going to be considered a success. Just making a profit doesn't necessarily mean "success".
I don't recall a whole lot of marketing here though truth be told one would think that those who wanted permadeath games would have their ears to the ground and be in the know. I do "know" that there were complaints on these forums about the game from those who wanted "that type of game" but it was not about the permadeath component.
You see, that's the thing, and what I have brought up before, one has to point to a game for failing "because of permadeath" and not because of poor implementation of the game.
Same goes for Salem. You can purchase items in a cash shop but if you are killed then you lose those items if they are on you. That was a common complaint I've seen.
Now, having said that, as far as I know it's still running. So one must suspect there are enough people to keep it going.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Remort and persistent account-based character stats/traits (ex: Wizardry Online) have been around since MUDs. Rebirth or 'ancestry' has been in MUDs and MMOs for both characters and pets. Mabinogi pets are the first that come to mind.
And, if I am reading it correctly, today's front story is about an idea for a game with permadeath. Or is it playable currently? While that sounds nitpicky, you have been around long enough to know there is a huge difference between a 'great' idea in development and a released feature that people enjoy playing. The latter is a rather big deal. The former and a token gets you on a bus. Well, in today's world it can get you a few million in crowdfunding, but you get the point.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Oh, I completely agree. It's a studio that wants to make this game and "yadda, yadda yadda" we'll see.
But the idea that there are people out there who are willing to try to make these things happen points to a group of people out there who want permadeath games or who will at least think they are fun. Granted, it's a small group I bet but a group all the same.
I'm not sure how many they can get but if they could get 3,000 players and were a small team they might be able to pull it off.
They just can't be like Funcom who brought in 300k or so players for "The Secret World" (which was what I thought they would get) and then be disappointed it was not a hit with many times more.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
If some of you want a permadeath game try: The Long Dark
A survival game and just the wilderness and you, if you die your saved game gets deleted and you have to start again.
Ok, so you're not being obtuse, you just refuse to acknowledge that people are culturally different. Coming from a Lineage 2 player, that's pretty damn odd, Sovrath.
Did you know western players often feel it is deceiving when the character creator has characters in top end gear, and eastern players are turned off by characters in the creator standing around in their underwear? Or that the cut scenes in the beginning of Wizardry Online are considered normal there, but were considered a tedious abomination in the west. So much so that they were reduced or taken out of the SOE version.
I can go on with dozens of cultural differences, and if you decide to be honest with yourself, you can too. That you refuse to accept it is considered a good game by the players there is ridiculous and makes me wonder if you are so entrenched in your view that you are just rejecting any argument to the contrary.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I said it didn't work in a traditional MMORPG environment, that's a game that is all about character growth and spending hundreds of hours on that. I also made no stand on whether or not I would support the feature, I've never known you to be one to use such broad generalizations as to why someone is presenting an argument to you.
Using a feature like this takes real imagination, as well as out of the box design. It's a whole different concept to get folks behind. That is why it is rare... when it is used, it is usually an optional mode that gives the player the choice of partaking. What is ridiculous about pointing this out?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson