LOL, the list on the front page doesn't even include one game that I would play. Not a single one of them. So if that is the future of MMOs... it's going to be even bleaker than you think.
This as been talked about to death. Most of the indie developed mmos are niche games. This by definition means each individual game is suited to a specific audience.
You aren't meant to like all of them or even any of them. People here keep collectively pooling these games into the "sandbox" crowd. There is not sandbox crowd. There are different players from different backgrounds with different interests in games each being developed for different groups.
Camelot Unchained and Crowfall ARE sandbox games but each targets specific and small audiences ... even from themselves.
The Repopulation and SotA are both sandbox games but out to target entirely different players ... none of whom would likely play CU or Crowfall.
Pathfinder ... no idea who they are trying to target.
Others appear to be targeting specific play styles from older games and therefore not directed at the modern core audience of mmos who were not part of that era.
Niche means something is targeted either directly at you or doesn't want your interest at all.
Archeage, though not entirely sandbox, flopped unfortunately.
Star citizen is still trolling.
Camelot unchained/crowfall still mia.
And this site only represents a tiny, tiny fraction of the entire MMO playerbase.
Where did that come from?
seems...made up.
1) 3 million members is hardly "tiny tiny".
2) do you know who each of them represents?
And can you be certain all those 3 million members want the same thing?
Can you see that many people posting on the forums, the amount that post here is a drop in the sea of players. If a sandbox comes out and knocks it out of the park financially expect lots more to come, the fact they dont is why you dont have any.
Also, people on this site cant even agree what sandbox means generally, so even assuming a publisher/developer was reading this, what would they make?
The vast majority of players want their hands held. They want to be told what to do next and where to do it. Only a small percentage of gamers have the imagination or the drive to create their own experience given the tools to do it.
Sandbox games will always take a backseat to the on-rails hand holders. It's just a fact. But it doesn't invalidate the need to produce ever better sandboxes with ever better tools to play with in those sandboxes.
I hate posts like this. It's somewhat self agrandizing.
yeah that's right they don't have the imaginations. Or maybe they use their imaginations for other things, maybe important things, and they just want to chill with a story that games can grant?
It's always disappointing to see people make some claim that bolsters who they are and puts another down because that person doesn't appreciate what they like. That can go many ways you know. I wonder if the microscope was put on you if you would pass?
Call it whatever you want.
Most people prefer to be ushered from one treadmill to the next.
It simply, and undeniably, takes more imagination to be dropped into a huge box of LEGO's and told "go build something, but we're not going to tell you what to build".
Go research the EVE Online forums for quit posts and you'll find that the majority of players say the same two things "I'll never catch up" and "It's boring... there's nothing to do". Which is absolutely laughable. There are literally thousands of things to do, but no one's there with big flashing neon lights saying "Dugeon 'x' has the best gear, go grind that dungeon next".
I'm not convinced it has to do with "imagination" but that it has more to do with what motivates people.
I have no doubt that some EVE players quit because they thought the game was boring or that it was a grind. But I don't think that's imagination. They might just be motivated by "whatever" they think is a good story or some sort of "good" activity.
The only example I have (because I don't know many gamers) is one guy who is a pretty colorful character and a huge game player. I've seen him use his imagination many times coming up with all sorts of funny/hysterical photoshopped pictures.
He doesn't lack imagination.
but what he does say about open world games or sandbox games is that he would rather be presented with a concrete reason to "play" the game as he looks at these "games" as games. He doesn't want to live a life in them and he doesn't find joy exploring ad infinitum just to be entertained.
I think the crux of people not wanting sandbox games is in that. They are looking to be entertained, not looking to start some "second life" or a job or create their own entertainment.
Whereas other people have no problem immersing themselves in the world and want to be immersed and are cool with traveling through the space and enjoying the space around them as a part of the experience.
I think there is sufficient imagination in just opening up a game with trolls and dragons and space mutants and cowboys and cyborgs and not having an instant bout of self reflection thinking "what am I doing, I'm wasting my time".
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
The vast majority of players want their hands held. They want to be told what to do next and where to do it. Only a small percentage of gamers have the imagination or the drive to create their own experience given the tools to do it.
Sandbox games will always take a backseat to the on-rails hand holders. It's just a fact. But it doesn't invalidate the need to produce ever better sandboxes with ever better tools to play with in those sandboxes.
I hate posts like this. It's somewhat self agrandizing.
yeah that's right they don't have the imaginations. Or maybe they use their imaginations for other things, maybe important things, and they just want to chill with a story that games can grant?
It's always disappointing to see people make some claim that bolsters who they are and puts another down because that person doesn't appreciate what they like. That can go many ways you know. I wonder if the microscope was put on you if you would pass?
Call it whatever you want.
Most people prefer to be ushered from one treadmill to the next.
It simply, and undeniably, takes more imagination to be dropped into a huge box of LEGO's and told "go build something, but we're not going to tell you what to build".
Go research the EVE Online forums for quit posts and you'll find that the majority of players say the same two things "I'll never catch up" and "It's boring... there's nothing to do". Which is absolutely laughable. There are literally thousands of things to do, but no one's there with big flashing neon lights saying "Dugeon 'x' has the best gear, go grind that dungeon next".
You might have a point if most sandbox games involved truly creating something... How many examples of that are there really? In most cases it's as much creating something as following the directions on a box of mac and cheese. It basically boils down to..."Here place this box we made on this node we provided for you to do so." Even EVE's or in the past SWG's RP and in game politics/story is a rare type of scenario. In most cases sandbox creativity boils down to join my group so we can beat up that other group... which is more comparable to a schoolyard brawl than it is the powers of the human imagination.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
If there was actually customer demand for them and not a bunch of noise from a vocal minority, there would be sandboxes being developed.
That, is a fact. That, is capitalism.
There are several sandbox mmos being developed right now. Many of which were literally voted upon through capital investment (Kickstarter) due to the demand for them.
where the **** are the games for the hype? Still not a single new decent Sandbox-Release till today. What are the companies doing? Chilling and sleeping?
I cant understant that....
Think your own hope is a single player rpg which is sandboxish and Skyrim type game play called Northern Shadow.
Looks very good with city building, land conquest and questing.
If there was actually customer demand for them and not a bunch of noise from a vocal minority, there would be sandboxes being developed.
That, is a fact. That, is capitalism.
There are several sandbox mmos being developed right now. Many of which were literally voted upon through capital investment (Kickstarter) due to the demand for them.
That is fact. That is capitalism.
Obviously not to the degree that the OP was expecting, in comparison to his perception of the sandbox noise levels of these forums.
MMO gamers on forums are a picky, whiny, annoying lot that want everything for nothing.
Sandbox MMO gamers on forums are an even pickier, whinier, more annoying lot that wants everything and the kitchen sink for nothing.
There are sandboxes out there, yet looking at this forum, all of them suck / are not really a sandbox.
Simply put, why would any one want to risk making a game for a tiny fraction of the MMO playerbase. A dev would have to be stupid or suicidal to make a game geared to people who over the years could not find a game they liked among the plethora that is out there.
There are not many sandboxes out there bud.
Well linear quest hub themeparks are going down the tubes as well. So you will eventually see what it feels like to have a very limited selection of games to play just like the sandboxers have had forever.
Good to see the virtual world haters are still alive and well on these forums.
Edit: I'm subbed to Darkfall and not playing it in a hope that they will continue to develop it. Pretty sad state for sandboxes that you sub to them and don't play but hope they continue to develop it.
Interesting that capitalism has shown up so many times in this thread. It is really only one aspect though. All companies want to make money. You really can't talk about consumer capitalism without discussing marketing.
The market isn't composed of just one consumer. There are different markets. This is why not all bars are "sports bars", there are wine bars, dive bars,19th holes,dance clubs ect. to serve different markets.
It is ok to argue that the sandbox market is smaller than the mainstream MMO market at this time because it is true. On the flip side of that coin the current facts do not preclude a market shift in the future.
The main issue here is market saturation. The current themepark mainstream MMO market is over saturated. Several companies realized this in the last 3 years or so as stated earlier in this thread. They realized that there were just to many products on the shelf and not enough consumers to buy them. They also realized it was difficult to defeat brand loyalty to particularly popular products.
In that case some companies decided they needed to provide a different product to compete. They needed to appeal to a different market and build up a brand for themselves. Of course the hope always is to have a hit. A hit game, a hit record, a hit electronic item, it doesn't matter.
It is just the nature of the beast. One market is over saturated, you either find a new market, a new product or go out of business basically. Since a MMO development time is known to be in the 4-5 year range this new thinking from game companies has yet to bear fruit, but the next 3 years could be very interesting.
( Note to self-Don't say anything bad about Drizzt.)
I have need of a class paragon built to the specification of a simplified tree. If you would be willing to go into that instance door over there and kill ten rats, I will reward you with this item which I assure you is better than the crafted stuff that the plebes (I don't like calling them players they are not as special as you my snowflake) are making.
When you finish that task, you can come back to me so I can give you a fool-proof map to the next quest giver who is behind this building.
I must ask you to not wander more than 5 feet off the path however, or the forest exhaustion zones will force you to respawn after death.
Death? Oh no it's nothing to worry about, you will only be set back the time it takes you to run back to the tunnel, I mean forest. Don't talk to the plebes though friend, they will only slow you down, make sure you always deal only with me or my NPC friends.
I would wish you good luck but you won't need it, this is the land of Theme Park where success is as inevitable as a close score in a small child's soccer team. You will win with no effort and I will make sure that you never have to waste a moment thinking about what to do or how to do it.
Oooh the death penalty argument.
Game: Have fun there is no penalty for death.
Players: So whats the point, garbage game, 0/10.
Game: Oh ok, here is perma death for the ultimate experiance,
Players: Hey oh, wait a minute there. Thats not fair, we want death to mean something but not that much.
Game: Corpse run on death?
Players: What is this Everquest 1? Lame.
Game: Alright so lose all your stuff upon death.
Players: Nah I don't want to have to work to get those things again.
Game: 30% xp loss?
Players: Hell no I ain't here to grind XP.
And so on till we all die and the earth turns to ash.
No consensus on a specific issue = sandboxes are bad.
While theme park content is fun the first time and ok if encompassed in a v-world. On it's own its not enough to sustain play. Theme Park people argue for leather interior but don't want the car. They just want the one part they see the most, even if people tell them repeatedly its just one part of the larger machine.
MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
where the **** are the games for the hype? Still not a single new decent Sandbox-Release till today. What are the companies doing? Chilling and sleeping?
I cant understant that....
Well that right there should give you a clue about how relevant and plugged-in the daily dissection of MMO faults in this forum is.
If you're a developer and base your new MMO on the many discussions here about why MMOs are dead pieces of shit and how they should all be like UO, EQ, Asheron's Call or Lineage, prepare yourself for at best, a very low population niche game that will still get picked apart for having been done wrong.
Meanwhile the companies are neither chilling nor sleeping. They continue to develop MMOs for those who actually like them and enjoy playing them. They're huge time and money investments. Why pitch them at the tiny chronically disgusted minority?
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
where the **** are the games for the hype? Still not a single new decent Sandbox-Release till today. What are the companies doing? Chilling and sleeping?
I cant understant that....
They are creating games for audiences that are large enough to be economically viable for a multi-million dollar persistent world and that can actually be pleased.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
where the **** are the games for the hype? Still not a single new decent Sandbox-Release till today. What are the companies doing? Chilling and sleeping?
I cant understant that....
Well that right there should give you a clue about how relevant and plugged-in the daily dissection of MMO faults in this forum is.
If you're a developer and base your new MMO on the many discussions here about why MMOs are dead pieces of shit and how they should all be like UO, EQ, Asheron's Call or Lineage, prepare yourself for at best, a very low population niche game that will still get picked apart for having been done wrong.
Meanwhile the companies are neither chilling nor sleeping. They continue to develop MMOs for those who actually like them and enjoy playing them. They're huge time and money investments. Why pitch them at the tiny chronically disgusted minority?
Because they might not accept your premise that you follow either the permanently disaffected at MMORPG.com or maybe they use the trend that is perceived from surveys, anecdotal interview content, what your boss tells you to make, or what you as a developer decide is right no matter what you hear from others.
How long did the Theme Park hegemony take to get to full speed and dominate the industry? Is that any indicator of the ability to develop for a trend, or is it just the outlier created by WoW flooding the market? Is the sandbox resurgence already over as OP hopes, or is this particular epoch just getting started?
I don't think there are any definitive answers, just a particular irritation you have with people who express negative observations about MMORPGs that have disappointed them.
MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
where the **** are the games for the hype? Still not a single new decent Sandbox-Release till today. What are the companies doing? Chilling and sleeping?
I cant understant that....
Well that right there should give you a clue about how relevant and plugged-in the daily dissection of MMO faults in this forum is.
If you're a developer and base your new MMO on the many discussions here about why MMOs are dead pieces of shit and how they should all be like UO, EQ, Asheron's Call or Lineage, prepare yourself for at best, a very low population niche game that will still get picked apart for having been done wrong.
Meanwhile the companies are neither chilling nor sleeping. They continue to develop MMOs for those who actually like them and enjoy playing them. They're huge time and money investments. Why pitch them at the tiny chronically disgusted minority?
Because they might not accept your premise that you follow either the permanently disaffected at MMORPG.com or maybe they use the trend that is perceived from surveys, anecdotal interview content, what your boss tells you to make, or what you as a developer decide is right no matter what you hear from others.
How long did the Theme Park hegemony take to get to full speed and dominate the industry? Is that any indicator of the ability to develop for a trend, or is it just the outlier created by WoW flooding the market? Is the sandbox resurgence already over as OP hopes, or is this particular epoch just getting started?
I don't think there are any definitive answers, just a particular irritation you have with people who express negative observations about MMORPGs that have disappointed them.
"...outlier created by WOW"? Over-simplification and delusion at its finest. What next, Coke is the outlier and Fanta is the core cola?
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Archeage, though not entirely sandbox, flopped unfortunately.
Star citizen is still trolling.
Camelot unchained/crowfall still mia.
ArcheAge flopped? By what metrics? Forum posts?
For all I know they're making a ton of money off plebs in the cash shop, but the serious players/guilds are long gone. Steam hasn't helped them either.
Archeage, though not entirely sandbox, flopped unfortunately.
Star citizen is still trolling.
Camelot unchained/crowfall still mia.
ArcheAge flopped? By what metrics? Forum posts?
For all I know they're making a ton of money off plebs in the cash shop, but the serious players/guilds are long gone. Steam hasn't helped them either.
I'm sure Archeage made a ton. Trion was using tried and true monetization practices that tons of F2P P2W games use. Those games make a ton off of ridiculously shoddy games, so I don't see why Archeage, which was marginally better quality than them, wouldn't.
Most people when they say Archeage flopped are just thinking in terms of the dreams, hopes, potential, popularity, and main-streamedness they saw in it. Those same tried and true monetization practices that work so well for tons of F2P P2W games also always has smaller player bases, relying on a few whales to keep things profitable (which, again, works wondrously), and Archeage is no different. I'm sure Trion knows that (again, it's public knowledge. One of the companies even has a video of one of their presentations on the matter open to the public online) and I imagine they're satisfied with the short term huge glump of revenue they made. You don't start those monetization practices without knowing the obvious pros and cons.
Archeage, though not entirely sandbox, flopped unfortunately.
Star citizen is still trolling.
Camelot unchained/crowfall still mia.
Is CU even a sandbox? I thought it was all about the RvR à la DAoC?
And this site only represents a tiny, tiny fraction of the entire MMO playerbase. Just because a few loud elements are clamoring for it doesn't mean that the demand is as great as they claim.
The reason you see so few sandboxes is because none of them ever hit it big. UO's probably the most successful of the bunch, but WoW pretty much blew it out of the water when it released.
Vanguard and SWG both died after struggling for years, and Archeage seems to be a moderate success (not exactly the kind of thing that gets investor itching to jump on the bandwagon).
Games like Darkfall and the like aren't even worth mentioning, as they all have tiny playerbases.
EVE's doing pretty well, but it's not huge either. And good luck trying to steal EVE's players for a new game, given what they've got invested in their current game.
SWG did not "struggle for years". It struggled after NGE. It was a wildly popular game prior to Smedley throwing his sabot into the gears, after which it might as well have been a crappy WoW clone. Many players decided that WoW was doing WoW better than SWG and jumped ship.
It struggled from the beginning. Many of the complaints from the start (beyond the bugs and gross imbalances) were that it wasn't Star Wars. It's was a Uncle Owen Simulator... That there was less adventure and more hairstyling than in any other game in existence.
Even at its height it had less than 250,000 subscribers. This is less than half of EQ had and a tiny fraction of what WoW showed the world was possible. 'Wildly successful' is hardly an accurate assessment of the Hairstyling, Chef cooking, Interior decorating adventures of Bland So Low.
Not Starwarsy enough, that sounds like just another of the soundbites that was released by a certain person, who also claimed that there was too much reading in the game, it most certainly wasn't a complaint by the players at the time, and as for struggling, the game had 250k players at its peak, which at the time was probably more than were playing EQ1, the problem was, they wanted WoW's playerbase, and it wasn't happening, but it wasn't struggling, nor is Eve Online struggling at only having 500k, or 350k - 400k. SWG didn't 'struggle' until SOE decided that they needed to have millions of players, instead of hundreds of thousands, but the arguments against the game were not that it wasn't Starwarsy enough, that was just a management level PR excuse to explain away why they were burning their existing playerbase in the hope of enticing in the WoW crowd, needless to say, it didn't work.
That soundbite was merly a echo from all the complaints we read on the official forums, it wasn't made up by one person. In fact anyone reading forums back then knew how many who left early felt about the game.
Those of us who wanted fixed who where actually enjoying the game where once again in the minority.
I spent most of my work day back then reading the official forums. I don't think I ever saw that in the I quit posts. I did see lack of content mentioned alot. I saw people complaining Jedi (OP, shouldn't be there, should be hidden, etc), and how the hologrind was stupid because everyone quit playing the game to hologrind. I then remember people leaving because the village didn't make sense in the timeline. People complained about the fight clubbing. X and Y exploits were reasons people left. I don't, however, remember anyone saying not star warsy enough until it became a talking point for the NGE.
Yup those where the common complaints from those of us enjoying most of the game.
The not star warsy enough I remember clearly as often I got caught into a discussion where I felt it couldn't have been more Star Warsy, I was there simply speaking on the planet from the movie's, I could set my own path and choose the one of a crafter/trader, it was completely different from the gamestyle/play I wasa used too as 98% of my games are combat oriented. But most complaints somehow needed more iconic characters from the movie and stories to follow instead of giving in into the freedom presented. The not star wasy enough happen about 6 months after release on the forums...
Plenty of people simply didn't understand the game and I don't blame them, it was often very overwelming, there was allot of reading and many complaint about it. I met so many people ingame asking what's the fasted way to master level?, why can't I have that big awesome ship? Not fair you sell "things" so much cheaper then I did while I mastered cap level in a month and it took you (me) 6 months)
where the **** are the games for the hype? Still not a single new decent Sandbox-Release till today. What are the companies doing? Chilling and sleeping?
I cant understant that....
People complain about all the themepark too. This isn't about themepark or sandbox.
Originally posted by GeezerGamer If only we could agree on what a Sandbox MMO really is.
One where you can either use the clay to build something magnificent or use the clay to take a massive dump in it and see if the smell is enough to erode other peoples work away.....
Originally posted by GeezerGamer If only we could agree on what a Sandbox MMO really is.
...and now it's a party.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Archeage, though not entirely sandbox, flopped unfortunately.
Star citizen is still trolling.
Camelot unchained/crowfall still mia.
Is CU even a sandbox? I thought it was all about the RvR à la DAoC?
And this site only represents a tiny, tiny fraction of the entire MMO playerbase. Just because a few loud elements are clamoring for it doesn't mean that the demand is as great as they claim.
The reason you see so few sandboxes is because none of them ever hit it big. UO's probably the most successful of the bunch, but WoW pretty much blew it out of the water when it released.
Vanguard and SWG both died after struggling for years, and Archeage seems to be a moderate success (not exactly the kind of thing that gets investor itching to jump on the bandwagon).
Games like Darkfall and the like aren't even worth mentioning, as they all have tiny playerbases.
EVE's doing pretty well, but it's not huge either. And good luck trying to steal EVE's players for a new game, given what they've got invested in their current game.
SWG did not "struggle for years". It struggled after NGE. It was a wildly popular game prior to Smedley throwing his sabot into the gears, after which it might as well have been a crappy WoW clone. Many players decided that WoW was doing WoW better than SWG and jumped ship.
It struggled from the beginning. Many of the complaints from the start (beyond the bugs and gross imbalances) were that it wasn't Star Wars. It's was a Uncle Owen Simulator... That there was less adventure and more hairstyling than in any other game in existence.
Even at its height it had less than 250,000 subscribers. This is less than half of EQ had and a tiny fraction of what WoW showed the world was possible. 'Wildly successful' is hardly an accurate assessment of the Hairstyling, Chef cooking, Interior decorating adventures of Bland So Low.
Not Starwarsy enough, that sounds like just another of the soundbites that was released by a certain person, who also claimed that there was too much reading in the game, it most certainly wasn't a complaint by the players at the time, and as for struggling, the game had 250k players at its peak, which at the time was probably more than were playing EQ1
No, EQ peaked at over 500,000 which was during SWG. Saying that SWG ever had more players than EQ only shows you weren't a part of it. You don't know the numbers from the internal server monitor program.
And not Starwarsy enough was exactly the complaint that most of the people had that were in beta and dropped it or bought it and did not continue. And that number was bigger than the ones that eventually subbed. (Over a million sold, less than 250K subs... you do the math)
Look, I know SWG is the messiah of sandbox games, but it's not a god and if you weren't a part of it, and I don't mean just a player, then you probably shouldn't front like you were.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire: Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
This means I'm against 100% sandbox and 100% themepark.
You're in luck. No MMO has ever been made as either.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Comments
This as been talked about to death. Most of the indie developed mmos are niche games. This by definition means each individual game is suited to a specific audience.
You aren't meant to like all of them or even any of them. People here keep collectively pooling these games into the "sandbox" crowd. There is not sandbox crowd. There are different players from different backgrounds with different interests in games each being developed for different groups.
Camelot Unchained and Crowfall ARE sandbox games but each targets specific and small audiences ... even from themselves.
The Repopulation and SotA are both sandbox games but out to target entirely different players ... none of whom would likely play CU or Crowfall.
Pathfinder ... no idea who they are trying to target.
Others appear to be targeting specific play styles from older games and therefore not directed at the modern core audience of mmos who were not part of that era.
Niche means something is targeted either directly at you or doesn't want your interest at all.
You stay sassy!
And can you be certain all those 3 million members want the same thing?
Can you see that many people posting on the forums, the amount that post here is a drop in the sea of players. If a sandbox comes out and knocks it out of the park financially expect lots more to come, the fact they dont is why you dont have any.
Also, people on this site cant even agree what sandbox means generally, so even assuming a publisher/developer was reading this, what would they make?
I'm not convinced it has to do with "imagination" but that it has more to do with what motivates people.
I have no doubt that some EVE players quit because they thought the game was boring or that it was a grind. But I don't think that's imagination. They might just be motivated by "whatever" they think is a good story or some sort of "good" activity.
The only example I have (because I don't know many gamers) is one guy who is a pretty colorful character and a huge game player. I've seen him use his imagination many times coming up with all sorts of funny/hysterical photoshopped pictures.
He doesn't lack imagination.
but what he does say about open world games or sandbox games is that he would rather be presented with a concrete reason to "play" the game as he looks at these "games" as games. He doesn't want to live a life in them and he doesn't find joy exploring ad infinitum just to be entertained.
I think the crux of people not wanting sandbox games is in that. They are looking to be entertained, not looking to start some "second life" or a job or create their own entertainment.
Whereas other people have no problem immersing themselves in the world and want to be immersed and are cool with traveling through the space and enjoying the space around them as a part of the experience.
I think there is sufficient imagination in just opening up a game with trolls and dragons and space mutants and cowboys and cyborgs and not having an instant bout of self reflection thinking "what am I doing, I'm wasting my time".
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
You might have a point if most sandbox games involved truly creating something... How many examples of that are there really? In most cases it's as much creating something as following the directions on a box of mac and cheese. It basically boils down to..."Here place this box we made on this node we provided for you to do so." Even EVE's or in the past SWG's RP and in game politics/story is a rare type of scenario. In most cases sandbox creativity boils down to join my group so we can beat up that other group... which is more comparable to a schoolyard brawl than it is the powers of the human imagination.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
If there was actually customer demand for them and not a bunch of noise from a vocal minority, there would be sandboxes being developed.
That, is a fact. That, is capitalism.
There are several sandbox mmos being developed right now. Many of which were literally voted upon through capital investment (Kickstarter) due to the demand for them.
That is fact. That is capitalism.
You stay sassy!
Think your own hope is a single player rpg which is sandboxish and Skyrim type game play called Northern Shadow.
Looks very good with city building, land conquest and questing.
Northern Shadow http://www.pcgamer.com/northern-shadow-is-a-citybuilding-first-person-rpg-and-hot-damn/
http://northernshadow-game.com/
Obviously not to the degree that the OP was expecting, in comparison to his perception of the sandbox noise levels of these forums.
Try to keep up...
There are not many sandboxes out there bud.
Well linear quest hub themeparks are going down the tubes as well. So you will eventually see what it feels like to have a very limited selection of games to play just like the sandboxers have had forever.
Good to see the virtual world haters are still alive and well on these forums.
Edit: I'm subbed to Darkfall and not playing it in a hope that they will continue to develop it. Pretty sad state for sandboxes that you sub to them and don't play but hope they continue to develop it.
Interesting that capitalism has shown up so many times in this thread. It is really only one aspect though. All companies want to make money. You really can't talk about consumer capitalism without discussing marketing.
The market isn't composed of just one consumer. There are different markets. This is why not all bars are "sports bars", there are wine bars, dive bars,19th holes,dance clubs ect. to serve different markets.
It is ok to argue that the sandbox market is smaller than the mainstream MMO market at this time because it is true. On the flip side of that coin the current facts do not preclude a market shift in the future.
The main issue here is market saturation. The current themepark mainstream MMO market is over saturated. Several companies realized this in the last 3 years or so as stated earlier in this thread. They realized that there were just to many products on the shelf and not enough consumers to buy them. They also realized it was difficult to defeat brand loyalty to particularly popular products.
In that case some companies decided they needed to provide a different product to compete. They needed to appeal to a different market and build up a brand for themselves. Of course the hope always is to have a hit. A hit game, a hit record, a hit electronic item, it doesn't matter.
It is just the nature of the beast. One market is over saturated, you either find a new market, a new product or go out of business basically. Since a MMO development time is known to be in the 4-5 year range this new thinking from game companies has yet to bear fruit, but the next 3 years could be very interesting.
( Note to self-Don't say anything bad about Drizzt.)
An acerbic sense of humor is NOT allowed here.
No consensus on a specific issue = sandboxes are bad.
While theme park content is fun the first time and ok if encompassed in a v-world. On it's own its not enough to sustain play. Theme Park people argue for leather interior but don't want the car. They just want the one part they see the most, even if people tell them repeatedly its just one part of the larger machine.
Well that right there should give you a clue about how relevant and plugged-in the daily dissection of MMO faults in this forum is.
If you're a developer and base your new MMO on the many discussions here about why MMOs are dead pieces of shit and how they should all be like UO, EQ, Asheron's Call or Lineage, prepare yourself for at best, a very low population niche game that will still get picked apart for having been done wrong.
Meanwhile the companies are neither chilling nor sleeping. They continue to develop MMOs for those who actually like them and enjoy playing them. They're huge time and money investments. Why pitch them at the tiny chronically disgusted minority?
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
They are creating games for audiences that are large enough to be economically viable for a multi-million dollar persistent world and that can actually be pleased.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Because they might not accept your premise that you follow either the permanently disaffected at MMORPG.com or maybe they use the trend that is perceived from surveys, anecdotal interview content, what your boss tells you to make, or what you as a developer decide is right no matter what you hear from others.
How long did the Theme Park hegemony take to get to full speed and dominate the industry? Is that any indicator of the ability to develop for a trend, or is it just the outlier created by WoW flooding the market? Is the sandbox resurgence already over as OP hopes, or is this particular epoch just getting started?
I don't think there are any definitive answers, just a particular irritation you have with people who express negative observations about MMORPGs that have disappointed them.
"...outlier created by WOW"? Over-simplification and delusion at its finest. What next, Coke is the outlier and Fanta is the core cola?
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
For all I know they're making a ton of money off plebs in the cash shop, but the serious players/guilds are long gone. Steam hasn't helped them either.
Played-Everything
Playing-LoL
I'm sure Archeage made a ton. Trion was using tried and true monetization practices that tons of F2P P2W games use. Those games make a ton off of ridiculously shoddy games, so I don't see why Archeage, which was marginally better quality than them, wouldn't.
Most people when they say Archeage flopped are just thinking in terms of the dreams, hopes, potential, popularity, and main-streamedness they saw in it. Those same tried and true monetization practices that work so well for tons of F2P P2W games also always has smaller player bases, relying on a few whales to keep things profitable (which, again, works wondrously), and Archeage is no different. I'm sure Trion knows that (again, it's public knowledge. One of the companies even has a video of one of their presentations on the matter open to the public online) and I imagine they're satisfied with the short term huge glump of revenue they made. You don't start those monetization practices without knowing the obvious pros and cons.
Yup those where the common complaints from those of us enjoying most of the game.
The not star warsy enough I remember clearly as often I got caught into a discussion where I felt it couldn't have been more Star Warsy, I was there simply speaking on the planet from the movie's, I could set my own path and choose the one of a crafter/trader, it was completely different from the gamestyle/play I wasa used too as 98% of my games are combat oriented. But most complaints somehow needed more iconic characters from the movie and stories to follow instead of giving in into the freedom presented. The not star wasy enough happen about 6 months after release on the forums...
Plenty of people simply didn't understand the game and I don't blame them, it was often very overwelming, there was allot of reading and many complaint about it. I met so many people ingame asking what's the fasted way to master level?, why can't I have that big awesome ship? Not fair you sell "things" so much cheaper then I did while I mastered cap level in a month and it took you (me) 6 months)
People complain about all the themepark too. This isn't about themepark or sandbox.
One where you can either use the clay to build something magnificent or use the clay to take a massive dump in it and see if the smell is enough to erode other peoples work away.....
I'm gonna go load up EVE now
...and now it's a party.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
No, EQ peaked at over 500,000 which was during SWG. Saying that SWG ever had more players than EQ only shows you weren't a part of it. You don't know the numbers from the internal server monitor program.
And not Starwarsy enough was exactly the complaint that most of the people had that were in beta and dropped it or bought it and did not continue. And that number was bigger than the ones that eventually subbed. (Over a million sold, less than 250K subs... you do the math)
Look, I know SWG is the messiah of sandbox games, but it's not a god and if you weren't a part of it, and I don't mean just a player, then you probably shouldn't front like you were.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
You're in luck. No MMO has ever been made as either.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Wurm Online, ask Notch. http://www.wurmonline.com/
http://www.wurmpedia.com/index.php/Basic_Knowledge#What_is_Wurm_Online.3F