I believe there comes a time when a successful company should get off the teet and stand on their own two feet. So why not have a kickstarter for Disney so they can put the funds into their next Star Wars film?
We both can agree on entities standing on their own. I've skimmed further comments, and noted that you run a business. It is natural, then, that you have certain reservations and experiences that put into stone thoughts regarding matters of such. Though I must ask if you directly work with your customers, or if you have people for that who you expect to provide excellent customer service and instill customer loyalty.
This could very much be interpreted as someone saying that Larian should "act their age" in a matter of words. Do what other companies do. In that light, I reiterate that they should've just resold the Enhanced Edition as opposed to making it free to their customers. With that money, they could've had enough for their enhanced edition and essentially stand on their two feet.
Except, that when you run a company that has an established customer loyalty, the worse thing to do is to alienate it. They have expectations of you. Larian reselling their game would equally infuriate people as kickstarter does to some. Though those who dislike kickstarter are necessarily their fanbase. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Who to appease? Your fanbase, or random Joe who dislikes "misuse" of kickstarter?
Add to that, there is value in customer loyalty. In so giving the Enhanced edition for free, they reaffirm their commitment to their fans and their game. This brings confidence in their product. Which brings "investor" confidence when they "cash in" on their good deeds (if looking at this from a cynical perspective).
So in not "standing on their feet" to make as much money as possible, they instead stick to how they've always been and offering things for free, and merely ask their fanbase to help build a new game if they so please. Likely for half off what it will be at launch. With that, there is an emotional connection to the game that you help build. That you then test in Alpha and Beta. Emotional investment. Great amounts of trust. Indeed, that's more valuable that "standing on your feet", pissing off or disenfranchising your customers in the process. Likewise, if they held half of their funds for emergency, then the game would likely not be as good as others would expect. Thus, sales would decrease. Of which many companies resort to the "hype machine" to get sales, rather than bug-free content that is fairly priced and doesn't have another $100 in additional fees. Because their product wouldn't be able to sale without it's name and the hype they drive with false, staged videos and pictures. Because their fanbase no longer trusts them. Games no longer sell themselves with companies that "stand on their feet" nowadays. The rare exception being CD Projekt Red, which, for all intents and purposes, still has that customer loyalty and confidence in the first place. So additional hype on their products would likely have them sell 5 million plus copies within weeks.
Edit:
Is it a misuse of Kickstarter or the original spirit thereof? Perhaps. For the individual to decide, of which a prior post seems to indicate that you believe it is. I won't argue against that.
But I will say that, above all, I believe this is them putting their fanbase before Kickstarter moralists or what the industry says to do to make money (milk, milk! Milk!).
Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing). German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century. Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now). I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things). In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while. If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this. If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own. Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis. Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
As a fan of Divinity, when I first read their announcement my knee jerk reaction was still pretty negative. This thread has offered some solid debate and while I am still on the fence, its easy to see the lure of Kickstarter for even successful developers.
As a practical issue its one more tool to market, finance and engage. When I started my first small venture I was fully invested with OPM despite having my own resources. For me this reality helped quantify a "proof of concept" and incentivize our efforts towards profitability.
At the end of the day I will exercise my economic vote by choosing whether I make a contribution. As I loved the first game and always enjoy a good discount, I will probably use this campaign to place the oft-mentioned pre-order. Still, I can't help wonder if this is a sign of a changing dynamic for Kickstarter campaigns and how it will translate for good or bad.
Del Cabon A US Army ('Just Cause') Vet and MMORPG Native formerly of Trinsic, Norath and Dereth. Currently playing LOTRO.
As a practical issue its one more tool to market, finance and engage. When I started my first small venture I was fully invested with OPM despite having my own resources. For me this reality helped quantify a "proof of concept" and incentivize our efforts towards profitability.
This is the type of thing that made me champion services like Kickstarter in the beginning. I just hate to see things like Kickstarter that were created with the best of intentions get corrupted.
Why the hell do they need a Kickstarter for a sequel? I thought the game was pretty successful?
Is this the way we make games now? Makes tons of cash with zero risk?
I see Kickstarter as a means to help talented people create something that they don't have the means to do so on their own, things that are difficult to raise money for.
Hey Divinity guys.... Put that cash you made without a publisher into your new game and stop asking for handouts.
I think I'll take a pass on Divinity 2
You obviously don't understand business or how one works.
And you are "obviously" rude and disrespectful, especially considering the fact that Iaserit has a point. Also "obvious" here is that we all have differing opinions, and I would think it rather "obvious" that if you disagree with one's opinion, the adult way to handle that is to offer some intelligent argument opposing it. I mean geez, all of that should be "obvious" to someone who is "obviously" as well-versed in business as you are. ....Right?
"Why would I want to loose a religion upon my people? Religions wreck from within - Empires and individuals alike! It's all the same." - God Emperor of Dune
As a practical issue its one more tool to market, finance and engage. When I started my first small venture I was fully invested with OPM despite having my own resources. For me this reality helped quantify a "proof of concept" and incentivize our efforts towards profitability.
This is the type of thing that made me champion services like Kickstarter in the beginning. I just hate to see things like Kickstarter that were created with the best of intentions get corrupted.
Its a slippery slope.
Except that it's not being corrupted, Kickstarter itself is a multi-million dollar business at this point. When there's a way to make money and minimize risk to yourself or your company did you seriously not think individuals, hell, even existing corporations would see this as a ticket to funding their projects? There is no 'spirit of kickstarter'. It was never intended to just be for small companies or idea guys, if it was, kickstarter wouldn't be allowing these larger guys to jump in on the bandwagon. It's good business sense. You're welcome to complain but your argument is essentially worthless because it's based on your own interpretation of what kickstarter was meant to stand for, or what it's "true" purpose was. Obviously that's changed and will continue to change as more and more people come to use it. Individuals or existing companies.
More or less Yaevindusk explained it perfectly.
They've already reinvested in their business, they've already budgeted their game. The game with or without the success of kickstarter would have been made, but now they're offering those who want to spend the money NOW a chance to do so. They've already expressed in previous videos, articles and other conversations with the gaming press that they don't WANT to have to beholden to a large publisher, they want to stay independent and to create the games they want to create and to release them when they're ready. Which is exactly what they're doing and have done and it shows in the quality of their products. But if you have some moral stance against what you believe to be a 'free ride' for a company... Well, who cares? First day in and they're asking for 500,000 dollars. As of me posting this they're already at 474,924 and rising. I think the numbers probably speak for themselves. People, especially the folks who enjoy these games have no problem supporting a company that has done right by them. If they were going to buy the game anyways at this point they're just purchasing it early and they get to be a part of it's development through the use of forums, play testing, etc.
At this point I don't even think people read through the kickstarter or watch the video. They see it, form an opinion and head off to the forums to whine. Saw in a number of earlier posts and on other gaming press sites people are whining "THEY SHOULD HAVE THE MONEY FOR THIS."
Read the very end of the damn kickstarter at least, hell.
"We're already funding the game ourselves and are coming to Kickstarter with the aim of expanding the game's feature-set and seeking funds to integrate community input. The biggest risks are that we'll be late (a real possibility), or that certain features that we are planning on now might be changed (or even cut) as we move ahead with development."
~Game is already budgeted, they're coming to kickstarter to expand features, to increase the scope of the game. How is this bad? Offering up pre-orders, plus other Ks exclusives is also a plus to anyone who enjoys their games.
As a practical issue its one more tool to market, finance and engage. When I started my first small venture I was fully invested with OPM despite having my own resources. For me this reality helped quantify a "proof of concept" and incentivize our efforts towards profitability.
This is the type of thing that made me champion services like Kickstarter in the beginning. I just hate to see things like Kickstarter that were created with the best of intentions get corrupted.
Its a slippery slope.
Except that it's not being corrupted, Kickstarter itself is a multi-million dollar business at this point.
As a practical issue its one more tool to market, finance and engage. When I started my first small venture I was fully invested with OPM despite having my own resources. For me this reality helped quantify a "proof of concept" and incentivize our efforts towards profitability.
This is the type of thing that made me champion services like Kickstarter in the beginning. I just hate to see things like Kickstarter that were created with the best of intentions get corrupted.
Its a slippery slope.
Except that it's not being corrupted, Kickstarter itself is a multi-million dollar business at this point.
I'd say that pretty much sums it up
So because they're making money that means they're corrupted? Alright, sure. We'll go with that. Anyone who goes into business is in it to make money. So I don't know what else to tell you.
As a practical issue its one more tool to market, finance and engage. When I started my first small venture I was fully invested with OPM despite having my own resources. For me this reality helped quantify a "proof of concept" and incentivize our efforts towards profitability.
This is the type of thing that made me champion services like Kickstarter in the beginning. I just hate to see things like Kickstarter that were created with the best of intentions get corrupted.
Its a slippery slope.
Except that it's not being corrupted, Kickstarter itself is a multi-million dollar business at this point.
I'd say that pretty much sums it up
So because they're making money that means they're corrupted? Alright, sure. We'll go with that. Anyone who goes into business is in it to make money. So I don't know what else to tell you.
It gets a little trickier than that, when your in the business of collecting pledges and donations.
I'm just gunna chime in with... this is like the umteenth forum I've read this general debate in. It's covered in the Kickstarter WHY they're doing it through Kickstarter. Kind of have to take them at face value.
That being said... I don't have a horse in this race as I haven't played any of them.
I find that the real problem is kickstarter and the lack of accountability and customers right. Right now its in a legal grey area together with the whole early access, with customers being stuck in the middle.
Larian Studios did kickstarter the right way with Divinity:OS. In october 2014 their plans was to finance a sequel on their own and in many ways it was the fans they gathered from the first game that caused them to return to kickstarter. I don't mind them returning since you get more options to acquire the game and I don't think they will destroy their reputation this second time.
One of the things that people don't seem to grasp is that in most cases kickstarter doesn't cover costs for developing a game. Either you do it with your own money or you get extra investors. Divinity:OS might have sold a million copies but only part of the money went in Larian pockets. Kickstarter and steam takes a 30% cut, investors had their share and rest went to Larian so that they could expand their studio to work on improving D:OS while starting development of the sequel.
I put $25 for this project, and I didn't think twice because its the kind of money I saved due to pledging the first time.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
Geesus this is sad,did they not make enough money to fund it themselves?This truly shows the greed and how developers view gamer's as easy targets for money.The gaming base of today truly are easy targets ,i see it in Twitch all the time,people throwing money at streamers they don't even know,it is like they all feel part of some little boys club or something.
People quit throwing your money around,these developers live in rich houses,drive expensive cars and couldn't care one iota about you when they are sitting at the dinner table eating cavier and laughing while reading their bank statements.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I dunno...Its like anytime I see the word kickstarter anymore I turn off my attention from that game.....Its getting to be a very negative connotation now.
Wow, holy crap, they met their goal in 12 hours. Half a million dollars 0.0... Just crazy. Yesterday I was looking at it and it was at 10k, I thought: "Might support this, but I still have time to decide whether I should or not." Guess not!
While I'm not the keenest supporter of kickstarter, I do think there are other companies and projects out there that are more deserving of a kick in the butt than the ones like Larian, who actually delivered on their promises. Heck they even did more and came out with an enhanced version upgrade for free.
You're better off focusing your critical efforts at the swarms of perpetual early access projects. Or the ones that fall victim to endless feature creep.
One success doesn't suddenly make you set for life.
Angry Joe did a live preview for the game, together with the devs. Find it here.
Post edited by Fdzzaigl on
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Comments
We both can agree on entities standing on their own. I've skimmed further comments, and noted that you run a business. It is natural, then, that you have certain reservations and experiences that put into stone thoughts regarding matters of such. Though I must ask if you directly work with your customers, or if you have people for that who you expect to provide excellent customer service and instill customer loyalty.
This could very much be interpreted as someone saying that Larian should "act their age" in a matter of words. Do what other companies do. In that light, I reiterate that they should've just resold the Enhanced Edition as opposed to making it free to their customers. With that money, they could've had enough for their enhanced edition and essentially stand on their two feet.
Except, that when you run a company that has an established customer loyalty, the worse thing to do is to alienate it. They have expectations of you. Larian reselling their game would equally infuriate people as kickstarter does to some. Though those who dislike kickstarter are necessarily their fanbase. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Who to appease? Your fanbase, or random Joe who dislikes "misuse" of kickstarter?
Add to that, there is value in customer loyalty. In so giving the Enhanced edition for free, they reaffirm their commitment to their fans and their game. This brings confidence in their product. Which brings "investor" confidence when they "cash in" on their good deeds (if looking at this from a cynical perspective).
So in not "standing on their feet" to make as much money as possible, they instead stick to how they've always been and offering things for free, and merely ask their fanbase to help build a new game if they so please. Likely for half off what it will be at launch. With that, there is an emotional connection to the game that you help build. That you then test in Alpha and Beta. Emotional investment. Great amounts of trust. Indeed, that's more valuable that "standing on your feet", pissing off or disenfranchising your customers in the process. Likewise, if they held half of their funds for emergency, then the game would likely not be as good as others would expect. Thus, sales would decrease. Of which many companies resort to the "hype machine" to get sales, rather than bug-free content that is fairly priced and doesn't have another $100 in additional fees. Because their product wouldn't be able to sale without it's name and the hype they drive with false, staged videos and pictures. Because their fanbase no longer trusts them. Games no longer sell themselves with companies that "stand on their feet" nowadays. The rare exception being CD Projekt Red, which, for all intents and purposes, still has that customer loyalty and confidence in the first place. So additional hype on their products would likely have them sell 5 million plus copies within weeks.
Edit:
Is it a misuse of Kickstarter or the original spirit thereof? Perhaps. For the individual to decide, of which a prior post seems to indicate that you believe it is. I won't argue against that.
But I will say that, above all, I believe this is them putting their fanbase before Kickstarter moralists or what the industry says to do to make money (milk, milk! Milk!).
As a practical issue its one more tool to market, finance and engage. When I started my first small venture I was fully invested with OPM despite having my own resources. For me this reality helped quantify a "proof of concept" and incentivize our efforts towards profitability.
At the end of the day I will exercise my economic vote by choosing whether I make a contribution. As I loved the first game and always enjoy a good discount, I will probably use this campaign to place the oft-mentioned pre-order. Still, I can't help wonder if this is a sign of a changing dynamic for Kickstarter campaigns and how it will translate for good or bad.
Del Cabon
A US Army ('Just Cause') Vet and MMORPG Native formerly of Trinsic, Norath and Dereth. Currently playing LOTRO.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
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This is the type of thing that made me champion services like Kickstarter in the beginning. I just hate to see things like Kickstarter that were created with the best of intentions get corrupted.
Its a slippery slope.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
"EVE is likely the best MMORPG that you've never really understood or played" - Kyleran
And you are "obviously" rude and disrespectful, especially considering the fact that Iaserit has a point.
Also "obvious" here is that we all have differing opinions, and I would think it rather "obvious" that if you disagree with one's opinion, the adult way to handle that is to offer some intelligent argument opposing it.
I mean geez, all of that should be "obvious" to someone who is "obviously" as well-versed in business as you are.
....Right?
"Why would I want to loose a religion upon my people? Religions wreck from within - Empires and individuals alike! It's all the same." - God Emperor of Dune
More or less Yaevindusk explained it perfectly.
They've already reinvested in their business, they've already budgeted their game. The game with or without the success of kickstarter would have been made, but now they're offering those who want to spend the money NOW a chance to do so. They've already expressed in previous videos, articles and other conversations with the gaming press that they don't WANT to have to beholden to a large publisher, they want to stay independent and to create the games they want to create and to release them when they're ready. Which is exactly what they're doing and have done and it shows in the quality of their products. But if you have some moral stance against what you believe to be a 'free ride' for a company... Well, who cares? First day in and they're asking for 500,000 dollars. As of me posting this they're already at 474,924 and rising. I think the numbers probably speak for themselves. People, especially the folks who enjoy these games have no problem supporting a company that has done right by them. If they were going to buy the game anyways at this point they're just purchasing it early and they get to be a part of it's development through the use of forums, play testing, etc.
At this point I don't even think people read through the kickstarter or watch the video. They see it, form an opinion and head off to the forums to whine. Saw in a number of earlier posts and on other gaming press sites people are whining "THEY SHOULD HAVE THE MONEY FOR THIS."
Read the very end of the damn kickstarter at least, hell.
"We're already funding the game ourselves and are coming to Kickstarter with the aim of expanding the game's feature-set and seeking funds to integrate community input. The biggest risks are that we'll be late (a real possibility), or that certain features that we are planning on now might be changed (or even cut) as we move ahead with development."
~Game is already budgeted, they're coming to kickstarter to expand features, to increase the scope of the game. How is this bad? Offering up pre-orders, plus other Ks exclusives is also a plus to anyone who enjoys their games.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
It gets a little trickier than that, when your in the business of collecting pledges and donations.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
That being said... I don't have a horse in this race as I haven't played any of them.
Larian Studios did kickstarter the right way with Divinity:OS. In october 2014 their plans was to finance a sequel on their own and in many ways it was the fans they gathered from the first game that caused them to return to kickstarter. I don't mind them returning since you get more options to acquire the game and I don't think they will destroy their reputation this second time.
One of the things that people don't seem to grasp is that in most cases kickstarter doesn't cover costs for developing a game. Either you do it with your own money or you get extra investors. Divinity:OS might have sold a million copies but only part of the money went in Larian pockets. Kickstarter and steam takes a 30% cut, investors had their share and rest went to Larian so that they could expand their studio to work on improving D:OS while starting development of the sequel.
I put $25 for this project, and I didn't think twice because its the kind of money I saved due to pledging the first time.
I wonder if the game will be playable by those that play games left-handed - unlike the last one
Pity Steam didn't have their refund policy in place when I bought that
People quit throwing your money around,these developers live in rich houses,drive expensive cars and couldn't care one iota about you when they are sitting at the dinner table eating cavier and laughing while reading their bank statements.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Just crazy. Yesterday I was looking at it and it was at 10k, I thought: "Might support this, but I still have time to decide whether I should or not." Guess not!
While I'm not the keenest supporter of kickstarter, I do think there are other companies and projects out there that are more deserving of a kick in the butt than the ones like Larian, who actually delivered on their promises. Heck they even did more and came out with an enhanced version upgrade for free.
You're better off focusing your critical efforts at the swarms of perpetual early access projects. Or the ones that fall victim to endless feature creep.
One success doesn't suddenly make you set for life.
Angry Joe did a live preview for the game, together with the devs. Find it here.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!