If you want an AAA sandbox game, then why aren't you playing Uncharted Waters Online?
And don't tell me that Koei-Tecmo isn't an AAA developer; both the Tecmo and Koei sides of the company (UWO is really made by Koei) go back more than 30 years and have delivered quite a few very good games.
Yes, yes, pay to win item mall. Or at least the publisher is sure trying to make it pay to win. But unless you're into piracy, the item mall stuff besides shipbuilding permits (which are cheap) barely matters.
You really don't know the very obvious answer to that question?
Some of the many rather valid reasons someone that wants a AAA Sandbox Game may not be playing UWO:
The setting
The UI/HUD
The art style
The type of sandbox gameplay (trading/pvp)
The type of housing
The story/events or lack thereof
Other sandbox elements they may be looking for but aren't offered by the game
"And don't tell me..." "Yes, yes, ..."
Such an odd level of condescension when posing a question with a rather obvious answer.
I had considered quoting Arglebargle's post above that said something to that effect. But yeah, you're right.
My point, which wasn't made clearly, is not so much that everyone should play UWO as that it's an AAA sandbox that people who insist that there aren't any AAA sandboxes tend to ignore.
If you want an AAA sandbox game, then why aren't you playing Uncharted Waters Online?
And don't tell me that Koei-Tecmo isn't an AAA developer; both the Tecmo and Koei sides of the company (UWO is really made by Koei) go back more than 30 years and have delivered quite a few very good games.
Yes, yes, pay to win item mall. Or at least the publisher is sure trying to make it pay to win. But unless you're into piracy, the item mall stuff besides shipbuilding permits (which are cheap) barely matters.
You really don't know the very obvious answer to that question?
Some of the many rather valid reasons someone that wants a AAA Sandbox Game may not be playing UWO:
The setting
The UI/HUD
The art style
The type of sandbox gameplay (trading/pvp)
The type of housing
The story/events or lack thereof
Other sandbox elements they may be looking for but aren't offered by the game
"And don't tell me..." "Yes, yes, ..."
Such an odd level of condescension when posing a question with a rather obvious answer.
I had considered quoting Arglebargle's post above that said something to that effect. But yeah, you're right.
My point, which wasn't made clearly, is not so much that everyone should play UWO as that it's an AAA sandbox that people who insist that there aren't any AAA sandboxes tend to ignore.
If you want an AAA sandbox game, then why aren't you playing Uncharted Waters Online?
And don't tell me that Koei-Tecmo isn't an AAA developer; both the Tecmo and Koei sides of the company (UWO is really made by Koei) go back more than 30 years and have delivered quite a few very good games.
Yes, yes, pay to win item mall. Or at least the publisher is sure trying to make it pay to win. But unless you're into piracy, the item mall stuff besides shipbuilding permits (which are cheap) barely matters.
You really don't know the very obvious answer to that question?
Some of the many rather valid reasons someone that wants a AAA Sandbox Game may not be playing UWO:
The setting
The UI/HUD
The art style
The type of sandbox gameplay (trading/pvp)
The type of housing
The story/events or lack thereof
Other sandbox elements they may be looking for but aren't offered by the game
"And don't tell me..." "Yes, yes, ..."
Such an odd level of condescension when posing a question with a rather obvious answer.
I had considered quoting Arglebargle's post above that said something to that effect. But yeah, you're right.
My point, which wasn't made clearly, is not so much that everyone should play UWO as that it's an AAA sandbox that people who insist that there aren't any AAA sandboxes tend to ignore.
So what are the other names of all these sandbox mmorpg AAA games? Every one ive encountered have been indie/early access, bug ridden with serious flaws(and p2w cashshop) and no direct or understand of what their players want.
On paper everything looks great........but the games aren't enjoyable.
- But it has everything you want, what's wrong with you?
But the games aren't enjoyable
- But it has most of the features you said you want in a game so the problem is that you don't know what you want.
But the games aren't enjoyable.
See how this works.
This was a very similar example with GW2 and ANET's "Manifesto"
ANET put together a video that explained the features the game would have.....But then they went on to describe what that mean for the player.....classic sales features/benefits pitch. Problem was, they made sure they had all the technical features they promised, yet IMO, those features did not deliver anything near the experience ANET said they would.
Just because a game as ABC features, does not mean it will produce XYZ experience.
People are voting with their wallets. If Wurmonline can get 916 people online(At the time of this post). This is a game that has 1 sever developer, and a client maintained by volunteers.
So when you take into consideration the "Sheer bull or badness" to player ratio it's does so very well compared to even MMOs that have smal teams. I mean I don't even imagine there's a reason to have "Sheer bull or badness" to player ratio for the first darkfall online(by my standards).
Wurm has sheer grind that would make a Runescape player cry. Has graphics that the 90's and early 2000's want back at the same time(which makes the game look silly). Has combat that might as well be a staring contest between robots.
As someone who has played the game for 2 years, about a decade ago... I will say there are some things that I really really love about that rough gem. It's the only game that I've gotten real lost, as in utterly terrified lost, Rather than the normal video game lost of "I'm frustrated for a while". It does an outstanding job of being as actual game that also give players control over the world.
________________
To get to the point I'm curious what a AAA developer team could get done...
I mean when you think about it developers spend tens of thousands of hours for an area that an individual player will be in for 30 minutes for their entire game time(as they level), then repeat the process 5 times for each starting area...
I mean lets be honest for all the years that Wurm has been around it might have just recently gotten the time put into it, that other developers put into the first couple of hours their players time.
I have no idea how I've never discovered Wurm Online before, but it definitely has the qualities of a solid sandbox game.
Started playing last night and it took me several hours to travel by foot to the village that offered to give me a guest house and a farm plot. It was interesting to see player built bridges, trade chat full of players saying "will only trade by boat." The massive scale of the game and the huge amounts of time to get things done, requiring cooperation and some degree of specialization, makes this sandbox unique in its class.
I wonder why the game has such a small population though? Is it because the game has been out for some time, or is this level of complexity and time investment not something that sandbox enthusiasts are looking for?
If you want an AAA sandbox game, then why aren't you playing Uncharted Waters Online?
And don't tell me that Koei-Tecmo isn't an AAA developer; both the Tecmo and Koei sides of the company (UWO is really made by Koei) go back more than 30 years and have delivered quite a few very good games.
Yes, yes, pay to win item mall. Or at least the publisher is sure trying to make it pay to win. But unless you're into piracy, the item mall stuff besides shipbuilding permits (which are cheap) barely matters.
You really don't know the very obvious answer to that question?
Some of the many rather valid reasons someone that wants a AAA Sandbox Game may not be playing UWO:
The setting
The UI/HUD
The art style
The type of sandbox gameplay (trading/pvp)
The type of housing
The story/events or lack thereof
Other sandbox elements they may be looking for but aren't offered by the game
"And don't tell me..." "Yes, yes, ..."
Such an odd level of condescension when posing a question with a rather obvious answer.
LOL I am playing it and I would say you are both right!
I think Quizz's point though, is that you can get sandbox elements in many games. And yet many people seem to diss these games because they are not "complete" sandboxes.
If we can't even support a game with sandbox features, how does that give developers faith in the concept? As a viable AAA MMO I mean. Sure they look at it and say yea, people will play it, but its niche.
Never gonna see a AAA sandbox, in that case.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Big studios invest a lot in market research and if an unserved segment would indeed be viable for them to target, they would jump on the opportunity to make and sell a product without any real competition. That said, even if the "fully sandbox" segment would be able to support a big budget title, that doesn't mean there are no other even bigger and more potentially lucrative segments that the big budget titles would rather aim at.
Just because a game as ABC features, does not mean it will produce XYZ experience.
This is quote worthy - probably one of the most misunderstood points in gamers minds.
This often comes up when people are describing their perfect MMO - and they just list the best features like - SWG crafting, Vanguard diplomacy, EQ1 raids...
I always cringe when I see those threads - because features by themselves DO NOT make the *game fun* it's how everything is implemented and tied together as a whole.
Thanks for posting this in such a succinct manner.
The coincidence in this post....or I should say the funny thing about it was the very inspiration from my post came from something you said a few months back that I recalled about Wrum being theoretically a great game based on design an features..........until you actually play it.
Just because a game as ABC features, does not mean it will produce XYZ experience.
This is quote worthy - probably one of the most misunderstood points in gamers minds.
This often comes up when people are describing their perfect MMO - and they just list the best features like - SWG crafting, Vanguard diplomacy, EQ1 raids...
I always cringe when I see those threads - because features by themselves DO NOT make the *game fun* it's how everything is implemented and tied together as a whole.
Thanks for posting this in such a succinct manner.
The coincidence in this post....or I should say the funny thing about it was the very inspiration from my post came from something you said a few months back that I recalled about Wrum being theoretically a great game based on design an features..........until you actually play it.
I've always maintained that an "enjoyable" MMORPG is the sum of it's features, and it's hard for a developer to identify exactly what is needed and in what proportion to satisfy their "target" market.
This is a key point many fail to understand, developers all select a target market, as large as necessary to cover costs and turn a good profit. The more they spend, the larger the target market must be, or the more per player the market must spend.
IMO the absence of certain features (downtime for socialization primarily) has greatly changed the playing experience of these games, up to the individual player whether they like it or not.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
So what are the other names of all these sandbox mmorpg AAA games? Every one ive encountered have been indie/early access, bug ridden with serious flaws(and p2w cashshop) and no direct or understand of what their players want.
I'm not claiming that there are a huge number of AAA sandboxes out there. I'm only claiming that Uncharted Waters Online is one, and so claims that there aren't any are false. Koei-Tecmo is definitely not an indie studio, and a game that released in 2005 certainly isn't early access today. UWO was only released in Japan in 2005, though, and didn't get translated to English until 2010.
A decade of steady development since launch means that by now it has massive amounts of content and features, to the extent that if you play it for a month, it's nearly guaranteed that you'll have ignored a number of major features of the game because you weren't even aware that they were there. And I don't just mean endgame, either; I mean stuff that you could have been doing at low levels but didn't because you didn't know about it.
I wouldn't call UWO buggy, but it does have quite a learning curve, as Koei does things their own way and ignores typical MMORPG conventions. That can make the game hard to get into because it's so confusing at first, but it also means that you're not 90% of the way to being sick of it the moment you pick it up on the basis of similarity to other games.
My 2 cents on it. as a developer make a game sandbox or otherwise YOU enjoy playing. You yourself are the only gaming demographic you truly understand. For all the $ companies, developers, publishers throw at "market research" 90% barely make a splash in any sub genre of mmo gaming. When was the last time an mmo sandbox or otherwise didn't start contracting hours, days, weeks after launch? and continue contracting until shutdown/sellofff2p conversion.
EDIT Game design should at least involve a little bit creativity/passion/interest by the creator. if your going down a list of features checking things off, instead of adding things YOU enjoy your basically outputting TPS reports. If you can't enjoy it how do you expect anyone else to?
"Fun" is simply a bit too subjective to rely only on "market research" who are just trying to sell you something.
Just because a game as ABC features, does not mean it will produce XYZ experience.
This is quote worthy - probably one of the most misunderstood points in gamers minds.
This often comes up when people are describing their perfect MMO - and they just list the best features like - SWG crafting, Vanguard diplomacy, EQ1 raids...
I always cringe when I see those threads - because features by themselves DO NOT make the *game fun* it's how everything is implemented and tied together as a whole.
Thanks for posting this in such a succinct manner.
Agreed. Very well said, GeezerGamer.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I never got why Ashen Empires did not take off and become more mainstream. I almost feel it is unfair now because newer sandbox games like Linkrealms are going to get a Steam launch and Ashen Empires never had that chance.
Ashen Empires is an Ultima Online-like game for those of you that don't know, and yes I am talking to all of you who are sick of the questing-on-rails, themepark MMOs. There is no limit in the amount of skills you can do on one character. You are free! make that battlemage! As for Ultima Online and Ryzom, I assume most of you are familiar with these two.
I read these forums a lot. This place seems to be a massive complaining location for people who are sick of all the typical MMOs and want something more sandbox. And a lot of you don't care about graphics.
So my big question is this?
Why aren't more of you either playing Ashen Empires, Ryzom or Ultima Online?
All three of these are amazing sandboxes.
Are you ridiculous? i googled your game. the graphics look like 1995. yes, graphics isnt all but you cant expect people to play a game with 1995 graphics. it looks ridiculously bad. also it has all the flaws of the old rpgs like non intuitive stuff. too many screen clusterfucks and chat windows and stuff. the word is immersion. go play monster hunter, experience true action combat where you control every strike and then come back and tell me again that this game is any good.
LOL I am playing it and I would say you are both right!
I think Quizz's point though, is that you can get sandbox elements in many games. And yet many people seem to diss these games because they are not "complete" sandboxes.
If we can't even support a game with sandbox features, how does that give developers faith in the concept? As a viable AAA MMO I mean. Sure they look at it and say yea, people will play it, but its niche.
Never gonna see a AAA sandbox, in that case.
While that is a legitimate point, it wasn't my point. Uncharted Waters Online is about as much of a straight sandbox as it gets, and pretty much the opposite of an "on rails" theme park. Never mind just going to different zones in different orders; you could have several people participating in nearly disjoint features of the game for months at a time while only vaguely aware that the other features are even there. If that's not sandbox, then there is no such thing.
I admit graphics make a difference to me, at least when they go from being reasonably immersive to downright repulsive, let alone affect my game play by being less intuitive(for me, first person view just throws my perspective off, having to stare at grass or pavement while moving probably contributes to that, compared to third person view where you can actually see the environment and your character and can better apply eye to hand judgement). ie.
If you want an AAA sandbox game, then why aren't you playing Uncharted Waters Online?
And don't tell me that Koei-Tecmo isn't an AAA developer; both the Tecmo and Koei sides of the company (UWO is really made by Koei) go back more than 30 years and have delivered quite a few very good games.
Yes, yes, pay to win item mall. Or at least the publisher is sure trying to make it pay to win. But unless you're into piracy, the item mall stuff besides shipbuilding permits (which are cheap) barely matters.
You really don't know the very obvious answer to that question?
Some of the many rather valid reasons someone that wants a AAA Sandbox Game may not be playing UWO:
The setting
The UI/HUD
The art style
The type of sandbox gameplay (trading/pvp)
The type of housing
The story/events or lack thereof
Other sandbox elements they may be looking for but aren't offered by the game
"And don't tell me..." "Yes, yes, ..."
Such an odd level of condescension when posing a question with a rather obvious answer.
LOL I am playing it and I would say you are both right!
I think Quizz's point though, is that you can get sandbox elements in many games. And yet many people seem to diss these games because they are not "complete" sandboxes.
If we can't even support a game with sandbox features, how does that give developers faith in the concept? As a viable AAA MMO I mean. Sure they look at it and say yea, people will play it, but its niche.
Never gonna see a AAA sandbox, in that case.
Not every game is for everyone. I think most are looking for a game with the scope of SWG and the playablity of World of Warcraft and decent modern graphics that are optimized. That's certainly what I am looking for.
Its pretty unfair that many other themeparks go unplayed largely because they are bad but sandboxes are if you don't play indie crap or outdated games from 2005 nobody wants to play.
Not every game is for everyone. I think most are looking for a game with the scope of SWG and the playablity of World of Warcraft and decent modern graphics that are optimized. That's certainly what I am looking for.
Its pretty unfair that many other themeparks go unplayed largely because they are bad but sandboxes are if you don't play indie crap or outdated games from 2005 nobody wants to play.
Yes not every game is for everyone, fully agree. Which is coincidentally also why what you ask for doesn't get made. True sandboxes are indeed not for everyone, not even the majority, they are for a smaller specific segment. Thus it's understandable noone coughs up the insane amounts of money to make one at the quality and scope you desire.
Scope&depth of SWG + polish&playability of WoW + modern graphics + great optimized engine (that's the easiest part) + aimed at a smaller segment = have fun budgeting and financing that.
I am all for a big fun sandbox. But we have to adjust expectations.
Not every game is for everyone. I think most are looking for a game with the scope of SWG and the playablity of World of Warcraft and decent modern graphics that are optimized. That's certainly what I am looking for.
Its pretty unfair that many other themeparks go unplayed largely because they are bad but sandboxes are if you don't play indie crap or outdated games from 2005 nobody wants to play.
Yes not every game is for everyone, fully agree. Which is coincidentally also why what you ask for doesn't get made. True sandboxes are indeed not for everyone, not even the majority, they are for a smaller specific segment. Thus it's understandable noone coughs up the insane amounts of money to make one at the quality and scope you desire.
Scope&depth of SWG + polish&playability of WoW + modern graphics + great optimized engine (that's the easiest part) + aimed at a smaller segment = have fun budgeting and financing that.
I am all for a big fun sandbox. But we have to adjust expectations.
Thing is sandboxes don't have to have the big expenses that themeparks have. You don't need the hand holding quest content, voice overs and etc. Sandbox are about good tools and systems to allow players to create hopefully content organically.
Thing is sandboxes don't have to have the big expenses that themeparks have. You don't need the hand holding quest content, voice overs and etc. Sandbox are about good tools and systems to allow players to create hopefully content organically.
I never got why Ashen Empires did not take off and become more mainstream. I almost feel it is unfair now because newer sandbox games like Linkrealms are going to get a Steam launch and Ashen Empires never had that chance.
Ashen Empires is an Ultima Online-like game for those of you that don't know, and yes I am talking to all of you who are sick of the questing-on-rails, themepark MMOs. There is no limit in the amount of skills you can do on one character. You are free! make that battlemage! As for Ultima Online and Ryzom, I assume most of you are familiar with these two.
I read these forums a lot. This place seems to be a massive complaining location for people who are sick of all the typical MMOs and want something more sandbox. And a lot of you don't care about graphics.
So my big question is this?
Why aren't more of you either playing Ashen Empires, Ryzom or Ultima Online?
All three of these are amazing sandboxes.
Because most who QQ about themeparks don't really care for sandboxes either . They want to be part of the "cool crowd" so jump on the bandwagon of the other qqers
I admit graphics make a difference to me, at least when they go from being reasonably immersive to downright repulsive, let alone affect my game play by being less intuitive(for me, first person view just throws my perspective off, having to stare at grass or pavement while moving probably contributes to that, compared to third person view where you can actually see the environment and your character and can better apply eye to hand judgement). ie.
Ugh, I remember when I was so excited UO's dev team finally had some artists to produce some new graphics instead of pallette swaps and then we got THAT junk. *shudder* (For those who don't know, the bottom pics are the "After" pics)
Yes not every game is for everyone, fully agree. Which is coincidentally also why what you ask for doesn't get made. True sandboxes are indeed not for everyone, not even the majority, they are for a smaller specific segment. Thus it's understandable noone coughs up the insane amounts of money to make one at the quality and scope you desire.
Scope&depth of SWG + polish&playability of WoW + modern graphics + great optimized engine (that's the easiest part) + aimed at a smaller segment = have fun budgeting and financing that.
I am all for a big fun sandbox. But we have to adjust expectations.
Thing is sandboxes don't have to have the big expenses that themeparks have. You don't need the hand holding quest content, voice overs and etc. Sandbox are about good tools and systems to allow players to create hopefully content organically.
Yes a themepark with those same qualities would be even more expensive, fully agree.
But pointing to something that is even more expensive doesn't make your product less expensive. I wasn't talking about themepark budgets.
You still need a big AAA budget if you want that kind of scope (like SWG), polish & gameplay quality (like WoW) and modern graphics (which goes hand in hand with a much more expensive to produce art style, can't just plop a blurry diffuse tex on ultra low poly models like old stylized MMOs did. Art/assets are a huge part of the budget, this will be a big factor)
It's also a misconception to think sandboxes are just some random sand (empty world) and some systems for emergent gameplay and everything else will emerge magically, created by the players.
The players won't be creating any of the needed assets for all those emerging things. (with the exception of going full Minecraft mode, in which case they will at least help you build the world. But just the world, and we are not talking about MC like games anyway)
For a great sandbox game you will actually have to pre-produce assets for all the possible scenarios your emergent gameplay could ever create! That includes everything from models, textures, sounds, animations to recipes, UI symbols/graphics and windows to even the simplest things like mouseover popup infos. For everything that the players could ever come up with, in all possible combinations.
So in that regard, you are actually producing more assets than a themepark would, because they know exactly what they will need while you need to cover a lot of possible scenarios and combinations and be prepared for anything players can come up with. For that you can ofcourse get away cheaper or free in other areas like questing and voiceovers, no question.
In the end, both will need an AAA budget for the desired scope and quality. The sandbox a big one, the themepark a very big one.
Why do people who want sandbox always refer to SWG? It wasn't that good of a game. If that game was released today it would fail just like it did before. No game that has tried to be the next swg has succeeded. There is a reason no Deveoper is trying to copy Swg these days. It's time for those who hold Swg on this make believe pedestal to let it go, let it remain dead...and move on already.
Not every game is for everyone. I think most are looking for a game with the scope of SWG and the playablity of World of Warcraft and decent modern graphics that are optimized. That's certainly what I am looking for.
Its pretty unfair that many other themeparks go unplayed largely because they are bad but sandboxes are if you don't play indie crap or outdated games from 2005 nobody wants to play.
Yes not every game is for everyone, fully agree. Which is coincidentally also why what you ask for doesn't get made. True sandboxes are indeed not for everyone, not even the majority, they are for a smaller specific segment. Thus it's understandable noone coughs up the insane amounts of money to make one at the quality and scope you desire.
Scope&depth of SWG + polish&playability of WoW + modern graphics + great optimized engine (that's the easiest part) + aimed at a smaller segment = have fun budgeting and financing that.
I am all for a big fun sandbox. But we have to adjust expectations.
Thing is sandboxes don't have to have the big expenses that themeparks have. You don't need the hand holding quest content, voice overs and etc. Sandbox are about good tools and systems to allow players to create hopefully content organically.
While that's true, it's a lot less predictable that sandbox features will be any good. How to make decent theme park quests and dungeons is pretty well understood by this point. You get a sufficiently big budget, you hire a bunch of artists and writers and programmers, and you'll predictably end up with a theme park that isn't terrible. It won't necessarily be great or even all that good, but at worst, it will be kind of meh and not completely awful.
Sandbox tools require much more on cleverness of the designers and figuring out how third and fourth order effects of the things you implement will play out over the course of months and years. There are a lot fewer people who can do that well than who can make a good theme park quest. Furthermore, it's not predictable ahead of time who will be able to make a good sandbox. Spend enough money to make a really good sandbox and you're more likely to end up with an unplayable disaster than a really good sandbox.
I have no idea how I've never discovered Wurm Online before, but it definitely has the qualities of a solid sandbox game.
Started playing last night and it took me several hours to travel by foot to the village that offered to give me a guest house and a farm plot. It was interesting to see player built bridges, trade chat full of players saying "will only trade by boat." The massive scale of the game and the huge amounts of time to get things done, requiring cooperation and some degree of specialization, makes this sandbox unique in its class.
I wonder why the game has such a small population though? Is it because the game has been out for some time, or is this level of complexity and time investment not something that sandbox enthusiasts are looking for?
I can tell you why I personally am not playing Wurm now, if you want that as data. Who knows if its the same for other people though.
Anyway, I trialed Wurm, and here's what happened. From the beginning I was not enthusiastic about the medieval-ish setting or bland color palette, but I was fine ignoring that in favor of trying to figure out how to build myself a house. After completing the tutorial level which didn't seem to have a lot to do with newbie gameplay, I was spawned into the game on the side of a mountain where there was just nothing helpful. No NPCs, no quests, no menu pop-ups, not even a sign to read. I was immediately lost and I freaking hate being lost. At least it was day out. But it was winter in the game. I wandered around, and found some other players' houses and boats. A low level monster beat the crap out of me and I had to run away to avoid dying; I discovered through this encounter that the combat was a type I hate. Not necessarily a problem, I was in this game to farm and build anyway, but I crossed hunting off my list of possible fun in-game activities. I found a trading stand set up so I could see what they were using for currency, not that I had any or knew how to get any yet. It got dark and I couldn't see a damn thing so I logged out and came back later.
After some more wandering around, including spending half an hour stuck swimming before I could find a place that wasn't too steep to get out, and at least 15 minutes trapped by some player's giant wall, I finally found a spot I liked enough to want to build a house there, or at least start with a storage chest or a fire pit or something. I wanted to chop down one particular tree to make a bigger clearing to put my house in. I think I managed to make a fire, but had no clue how to make anything else. (Could I have read a wiki, yes, but it's a failure of the game's design and interface if you can't educate yourself within the game.) But meanwhile there was just nothing my character could pick up and eat, nor any way to get a fish from the water, so I eventually starved to death. And respawned on the mountain, only at half health now, not entirely sure how to even get back to my little clearing, nor sure what the point was of walking all that way just to die again. So I wandered around instead, found someone's mine. Walked into the mine only to fall down a shaft and discover I couldn't climb out, and had pretty much no option but to commit suicide. That had pretty much used up my enthusiasm for trying out the game.
I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story. So PM me if you are starting one.
Comments
MurderHerd
On paper everything looks great........but the games aren't enjoyable.
- But it has everything you want, what's wrong with you?
But the games aren't enjoyable
- But it has most of the features you said you want in a game so the problem is that you don't know what you want.
But the games aren't enjoyable.
See how this works.
This was a very similar example with GW2 and ANET's "Manifesto"
ANET put together a video that explained the features the game would have.....But then they went on to describe what that mean for the player.....classic sales features/benefits pitch. Problem was, they made sure they had all the technical features they promised, yet IMO, those features did not deliver anything near the experience ANET said they would.
Just because a game as ABC features, does not mean it will produce XYZ experience.
I have no idea how I've never discovered Wurm Online before, but it definitely has the qualities of a solid sandbox game.
Started playing last night and it took me several hours to travel by foot to the village that offered to give me a guest house and a farm plot. It was interesting to see player built bridges, trade chat full of players saying "will only trade by boat." The massive scale of the game and the huge amounts of time to get things done, requiring cooperation and some degree of specialization, makes this sandbox unique in its class.
I wonder why the game has such a small population though? Is it because the game has been out for some time, or is this level of complexity and time investment not something that sandbox enthusiasts are looking for?
I think Quizz's point though, is that you can get sandbox elements in many games. And yet many people seem to diss these games because they are not "complete" sandboxes.
If we can't even support a game with sandbox features, how does that give developers faith in the concept? As a viable AAA MMO I mean. Sure they look at it and say yea, people will play it, but its niche.
Never gonna see a AAA sandbox, in that case.
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That said, even if the "fully sandbox" segment would be able to support a big budget title, that doesn't mean there are no other even bigger and more potentially lucrative segments that the big budget titles would rather aim at.
This is a key point many fail to understand, developers all select a target market, as large as necessary to cover costs and turn a good profit. The more they spend, the larger the target market must be, or the more per player the market must spend.
IMO the absence of certain features (downtime for socialization primarily) has greatly changed the playing experience of these games, up to the individual player whether they like it or not.
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A decade of steady development since launch means that by now it has massive amounts of content and features, to the extent that if you play it for a month, it's nearly guaranteed that you'll have ignored a number of major features of the game because you weren't even aware that they were there. And I don't just mean endgame, either; I mean stuff that you could have been doing at low levels but didn't because you didn't know about it.
I wouldn't call UWO buggy, but it does have quite a learning curve, as Koei does things their own way and ignores typical MMORPG conventions. That can make the game hard to get into because it's so confusing at first, but it also means that you're not 90% of the way to being sick of it the moment you pick it up on the basis of similarity to other games.
Camelot Unchained http://camelotunchained.com/v2/ is one for PvP fans to some extent.
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EDIT Game design should at least involve a little bit creativity/passion/interest by the creator. if your going down a list of features checking things off, instead of adding things YOU enjoy your basically outputting TPS reports. If you can't enjoy it how do you expect anyone else to?
"Fun" is simply a bit too subjective to rely only on "market research" who are just trying to sell you something.
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Not every game is for everyone. I think most are looking for a game with the scope of SWG and the playablity of World of Warcraft and decent modern graphics that are optimized. That's certainly what I am looking for.
Its pretty unfair that many other themeparks go unplayed largely because they are bad but sandboxes are if you don't play indie crap or outdated games from 2005 nobody wants to play.
Which is coincidentally also why what you ask for doesn't get made.
True sandboxes are indeed not for everyone, not even the majority, they are for a smaller specific segment.
Thus it's understandable noone coughs up the insane amounts of money to make one at the quality and scope you desire.
Scope&depth of SWG + polish&playability of WoW + modern graphics + great optimized engine (that's the easiest part) + aimed at a smaller segment = have fun budgeting and financing that.
I am all for a big fun sandbox. But we have to adjust expectations.
Thing is sandboxes don't have to have the big expenses that themeparks have. You don't need the hand holding quest content, voice overs and etc. Sandbox are about good tools and systems to allow players to create hopefully content organically.
Preach.
Yes a themepark with those same qualities would be even more expensive, fully agree.
But pointing to something that is even more expensive doesn't make your product less expensive. I wasn't talking about themepark budgets.
You still need a big AAA budget if you want that kind of scope (like SWG), polish & gameplay quality (like WoW) and modern graphics (which goes hand in hand with a much more expensive to produce art style, can't just plop a blurry diffuse tex on ultra low poly models like old stylized MMOs did. Art/assets are a huge part of the budget, this will be a big factor)
It's also a misconception to think sandboxes are just some random sand (empty world) and some systems for emergent gameplay and everything else will emerge magically, created by the players.
The players won't be creating any of the needed assets for all those emerging things.
(with the exception of going full Minecraft mode, in which case they will at least help you build the world. But just the world, and we are not talking about MC like games anyway)
For a great sandbox game you will actually have to pre-produce assets for all the possible scenarios your emergent gameplay could ever create!
That includes everything from models, textures, sounds, animations to recipes, UI symbols/graphics and windows to even the simplest things like mouseover popup infos.
For everything that the players could ever come up with, in all possible combinations.
So in that regard, you are actually producing more assets than a themepark would, because they know exactly what they will need while you need to cover a lot of possible scenarios and combinations and be prepared for anything players can come up with.
For that you can ofcourse get away cheaper or free in other areas like questing and voiceovers, no question.
In the end, both will need an AAA budget for the desired scope and quality. The sandbox a big one, the themepark a very big one.
Sandbox tools require much more on cleverness of the designers and figuring out how third and fourth order effects of the things you implement will play out over the course of months and years. There are a lot fewer people who can do that well than who can make a good theme park quest. Furthermore, it's not predictable ahead of time who will be able to make a good sandbox. Spend enough money to make a really good sandbox and you're more likely to end up with an unplayable disaster than a really good sandbox.
Anyway, I trialed Wurm, and here's what happened. From the beginning I was not enthusiastic about the medieval-ish setting or bland color palette, but I was fine ignoring that in favor of trying to figure out how to build myself a house. After completing the tutorial level which didn't seem to have a lot to do with newbie gameplay, I was spawned into the game on the side of a mountain where there was just nothing helpful. No NPCs, no quests, no menu pop-ups, not even a sign to read. I was immediately lost and I freaking hate being lost. At least it was day out. But it was winter in the game. I wandered around, and found some other players' houses and boats. A low level monster beat the crap out of me and I had to run away to avoid dying; I discovered through this encounter that the combat was a type I hate. Not necessarily a problem, I was in this game to farm and build anyway, but I crossed hunting off my list of possible fun in-game activities. I found a trading stand set up so I could see what they were using for currency, not that I had any or knew how to get any yet. It got dark and I couldn't see a damn thing so I logged out and came back later.
After some more wandering around, including spending half an hour stuck swimming before I could find a place that wasn't too steep to get out, and at least 15 minutes trapped by some player's giant wall, I finally found a spot I liked enough to want to build a house there, or at least start with a storage chest or a fire pit or something. I wanted to chop down one particular tree to make a bigger clearing to put my house in. I think I managed to make a fire, but had no clue how to make anything else. (Could I have read a wiki, yes, but it's a failure of the game's design and interface if you can't educate yourself within the game.) But meanwhile there was just nothing my character could pick up and eat, nor any way to get a fish from the water, so I eventually starved to death. And respawned on the mountain, only at half health now, not entirely sure how to even get back to my little clearing, nor sure what the point was of walking all that way just to die again. So I wandered around instead, found someone's mine. Walked into the mine only to fall down a shaft and discover I couldn't climb out, and had pretty much no option but to commit suicide. That had pretty much used up my enthusiasm for trying out the game.